Talk:2023 Allen, Texas mall shooting

Article title

I think referring to the actual business name is a little too specific, especially since most of our sources are using variations of "Texas mall shooting", "Texas outlet mall shooting", etc. I've also restored the year per WP:NCE. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

This article has been moved at least 4 or 5 times in the past few hours. I've protected it from future moves until there is some agreement here on what is the appropriate title. Or a week has passed. Whatever comes first. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

This article has been moved at least 4 or 5 times in the past few hours. I wasn't aware of that... 🤷‍♂️ When you "view logs for this page", the only thing it shows is the protection from vandalism, no moves. Even if you change "log type" to "Move log", it was/is blank... —Locke Cole • t • c 05:23, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The article's history shows the various page moves. The current title is too long; I don't think anyone refers to it as that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:31, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The word "outlet" does not need to be in the title. WWGB (talk) 11:52, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I can take it or leave it. I only included it, because "outlet" malls are typically outdoors, where most traditional malls are indoors. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:41, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think anyone refers to it as that. CNN and NBC News did. They also use "Texas mall shooting". —Locke Cole • t • c 16:42, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't doubt that many people & orgs call it the Texas mall shooting, but they don't call it the 2023 Allen, Texas outlet mall shooting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:NCE will help you understand the year. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:38, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

As I stated in another section on this talk page, calling it Allen Premium Outlets shooting would be consistent with other shootings at shopping centers, in the US like Westroads Mall shooting or Trolley Square shooting, or abroad like Morumbi Shopping shooting in Brazil or Sello mall shooting in Finland. Paris1127 (talk) 16:19, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Completely agree with this. There are two outlet malls in Allen, the Premium, and Watters Creek. So it should have the name "Allen Premium Outlets shooting", it would make it more recognizable. Also as you said, mentioning the article consistency if it happened to occur in a remarkable building or building complex. For example, the article for Uvalde isn't named "2022 Uvalde, Texas school shooting". Trakaplex (talk) 19:03, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The Uvalde article is at the WP:COMMONNAME. As this event is less than 24 hours old, we should be following WP:NCE. I also seriously question the wisdom of being too specific with the where that NCE prescribes; it would be akin to titling the page May 6, 2023 Allen Premium Outlets shooting (going overboard on the when in this example). Readers are also far more likely to know where Texas is, and perhaps even be aware of where Allen is within Texas, than they are to know that Allen Premium Outlets even exists or where it is located within the world. The general locale (city/town, state) should be sufficient until a clear name emerges from our RS that can satisfy WP:COMMONNAME. Additionally, there's a risk of citogensis if we use a specific name for the event and our RS pick up on that as "the name" they should use to describe it. As to the other articles, that's just WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS: are they named because of RS naming the events that, or is that because someone got too descriptive with the where as is being attempted here? —Locke Cole • t • c 19:19, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Descriptive qualifier

@Carguychris, WWGB, Mike Richardson, Dumuzid, General Ization, Super Goku V, Iskandar323, Toughpigs, Jim Michael 2, and Liz: The requested move was closed as no-consensus. I did see some discussion around the inclusion of outlet mall: as I indicated in the RM, I'm neutral/weak support on that, I think it's descriptive per WP:DESCRIPDIS (which WP:NCE references). I don't think we need a full-blown RM on this, but a quick straw poll and then a bold move after a few days. Here's my reading of the choices (feel free to add if you think of another):

• A – keep as-is (2023 Allen, Texas outlet mall shooting)
• B – switch to "outdoor mall" (2023 Allen, Texas outdoor mall shooting)
• C – remove the descriptor altogether (2023 Allen, Texas mall shooting)

Thoughts? —Locke Cole • t • c 16:31, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

B or C —Locke Cole • t • c 16:32, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

C or just 2023 Allen, Texas shooting: Yes, there's needless detail at present. Neither 'outlet' nor 'outdoor' adds much for the casual reader, nor, in fact, does 'mall'. Unless someone clicks to find out which "mall" (the Premium one), it does not really add much. "Texas shooting" alone is a simpler term. Since one hopes this will be the lone Allen, Texas shooting in 2023, that should suffice. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:48, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

C is the best of these three. 2023 &/or mall could be removed from that title. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

A my gut here is to leave it as is, but that's not based on much, and I don't think either of the other choices is really a downgrade But as I say, that's my feeling. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:17, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

C; I don't understand how the qualifier "outdoor" or "outlet" is necessary for disambiguation, particularly since very few shopping centers in Allen resemble or are marketed as malls. Regarding @Iskandar323:'s suggestion, it's (sadly) highly likely that a Texas city the size of Allen will have multiple newsworthy shootings in any given year, so I don't think it's wise to use a name that's so likely to need to be changed. Carguychris (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

C, no further qualifier is necessary, the type of mall had no bearing on the shooting. WWGB (talk) 03:23, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

A or B: I was initially okay with just removing the outlet portion, but the discussion from the 10th onwards in the RM has made me reconsider. I do think having outlet/outdoor mall does help by giving some additional information as to where the shooting happened. As for the additional proposals, I am still okay with having 2023 Allen, Texas mall shooting redirect here, but not as the article name. I don't see the benefit to removing the word "mall" from the name, so I disagree with that as well. Regarding years in titles, I currently no longer care enough to worry about them. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

A I don't think it's broken and I see no need to fix it. General Ization ^Talk 04:09, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, C was my last choice, I just didn't list A because I was hoping we could find some consensus here. With that in mind, it looks like no consensus on this. No objection to anyone else revisiting this with an RM down the road. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:10, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

This discussion has been going on for more than 40 days. I see a majority in favour of C: 2023 Allen, Texas mall shooting. Unless anyone objects and wants an independent close, I propose moving the page accordingly, Thanks, WWGB (talk) 06:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

My read was no consensus (comment directly above yours), but I won't object if you make the move. I'd wait a day in case anyone else does. Worst case, it's reverted and we do another RM. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:26, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Moved page to 2023 Allen, Texas mall shooting following clear majority consensus and no objections. WWGB (talk) 05:39, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

The BS with 4chan being a "right wing source is still there

will someone without a political leaning please clean up this article? 2003:CC:B707:A925:3105:BB4C:15F0:B4E8 (talk) 12:19, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

The search for someone "without a political leaning" strikes me as being a bit like Diogenes looking for an honest man. Happy Friday! Dumuzid (talk) 14:39, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

additional comma required

→ 2023 Allen, Texas, mall shooting. --212.95.118.138 (talk) 12:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Hispanic shooter

A Hispanic shooter is being categorized as "neo-Nazi", "neo-Faschist"? This can not be credible. 2003:DC:8F03:32CD:5183:1A46:AA1B:FA13 (talk) 17:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh, really? I guess Fascism in South America must be an illusion... 92.10.199.195 (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Classic no true Scotsman fallacy. It's credible. People do things that seem illogical or philosophically inconsistent all the time. Carguychris (talk) 21:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)