Talk:2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip/Archive 1

Archive 1

Israel declared that it will be putting Gaza under siege

Should the title reflect that it's a siege now instead of a blockade? [1] Zenixtronix (talk) 15:18, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Zenixtronix can you propose an alternate name? Are you suggesting "October 2023 Israeli siege of the Gaza Strip"? VR _talk 22:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

it should follow in line with how other historical sieges are named, in that case it would be "Siege of Gaza (2023)" Hholdenday (talk) 00:25, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Merge

This page should really be merged into "Blockade of the Gaza Strip". Alexcs114 :) 17:13, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

No. That is the parent page. This is a discrete time-specific development. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:35, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 10 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close. Requested-move discussions in the WP:ARBPIA contentious topic area are restricted to extended-confirmed users under WP:ARBECR. That excludes the nominator and the reply. If any extended confirmed users are interested in opening a requested-move discussion, they may do so. (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 00:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

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October 2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip → Siege of Gaza (2023) – As of October 9th, the Israel authorities have ordered a "complete siege" of the Gaza Strip. By cutting electricity, water and food, this is an escalation on the already existing blockade of the region. [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/09/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-siege-hamas.html Zenixtronix (talk) 19:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose The article already acknowledges that Gaza was under a partial blockade, but items like food and medicine were allowed through. The current title is appropriate for the partial blockade escalating to a total blockade. 98.249.109.74 (talk) 20:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Neutrality tag

Amid the bizarre removal of UN statements, I've tagged this page. And I suppose one could throw in the above cherrypicked translations of the infamous quote from Yoav Gallant as another balance issue. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Barbarians or animals?

There are two different translations of Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant's comment regarding the blockade. The Wikipedia article quotes "We are fighting barbarians and are acting accordingly" but other news outlets such as Le Monde or NDTV uses "We are fighting animals and are acting accordingly" instead. WikiAfterWiki (talk) 08:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, both translations appear in the "Blockade" section presently and are thus at least redundant and unnecessarily confusing. Alousybum (talk) 16:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I noticed that too so I looked at some Israeli sources (since presumably, Israeli news organizations know how to correctly translate Hebrew into English). The following Israeli news sources use the term "human animals":

• The Times of Israel: "“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds."
• Haaretz: "Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called Hamas “human animals” and announced the disconnection of the city of Gaza from all water and power supply."
• Israel Today: ""Defense Minister orders “complete siege” on Gaza Strip, says we are in existential battle against “human animals.”"
• i24news: ""I ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly," Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said in a statement shortly after Hagari's press briefing."

Incredibly, according to i24news, the Defense Minister used the phrase "human animals" a second time on Tuesday:

• i24news: ""You fought courageously and you acted in the spirit of the IDF exactly as it should. You resisted valiantly on the front lines, you hit many terrorists and saved lives. You saw with your own eyes against what we are fighting – against human animals – the Islamic State of Gaza,” he said."

As for non-Israeli sources, Reuters also reports it as "human animals". As does NBC, Huffington Post, MSNBC, NPR, The Guardian, Business Insider, Jewish News Syndicate, BBC, VOX. The list just goes on.

In comparison, Google shows me that there's only a handful of news sites that translate it as "barbarians". The most notable of these being CNN.

The National Review article that is currently being used as a citation (along with CNN) is very strange because directly beneath the sentence "“We are fighting barbarians and will respond accordingly,” Gallant said." the article includes a tweet from Middle East Eye that use "human animals": "The #Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said "we are fighting human animals", referring to Palestinians, and vowed to "act accordingly"."

All this makes me strongly suspect that someone is cherry picking sources that use the word "barbarians".  selfworm^Talk) 07:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

It does seem like some cherrypicking has been at work, yes. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Galant indeed called Hamas human animals. Alaexis_¿question? 12:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Blockade will not be lifted until hostages are freed

Israeli authorities have explicitly stated that they will maintain the blockade until the authorities in Gaza have released the abducted kibbutzniks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.73.245.110 (talk) 08:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Change title

The "October" part of the title is completely redundant, nothing like this has happened in 2023 Lukt64 (talk) 18:40, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Background needs updating.

"On 7 October 2023, militants from Hamas, a Palestinian political and military organization and other Palestinian groups, crossed the Gaza–Israel barrier into southern Israel, as well as firing rockets into Israel. Israel subsequently declared war on the militants, calling up 300,000 reservists to execute Israel's military operation."

The first sentence is a little terse, should include a brief description of the actions the militants took besides "crossing the border". Also misses some of the religious character of Hamas; identifying it as only political and military is to miss the religious element of the conflict. 108.5.57.119 (talk) 16:12, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The opening of Egyptian border for several hours

On 16th of October there were reports that the blockage was opened for about two hours to ollaw foriegn citizens to leave. Additionally about a hundred trucks of supplies may have gone in. Please confirm if there are are sources for the above. גוי אחד בארץ (talk) 19:00, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

According to the BBC TV News, of the hundred trucks, "up to twenty trucks of aid" have been allowed to enter. And only then when the the pot holes have been to repaired. When the article is updated, is it possible to confirm that - to help two million people - only a most limited amount of aid is to be allowed in?

Egyptian border closure has a different reason

Israel is implementing a siege of Gaza after formally declaring war on HAMAS. Egypt does not take part in this siege but will not allow people from Gaza to enter Egypt for different political reasons, which are outside the scope of this article. If this change, and there will eventually a mass movement of refugees from Gaza into Egypt, it might be relevant to change the title and scope of this article completely. But unless this happen, I suggest to keep the title, as it is. Fundiver199 (talk) 20:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 15 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 15:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

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October 2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip → October 2023 blockade of the Gaza Strip – For consistency with the main blockade of the Gaza Strip article. GnocchiFan (talk) 12:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Jenks24 (talk) 10:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't think Egypt is participating in this blockade, while they are in the other one. BilledMammal (talk) 12:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  Indeed. On the contrary, they've been threatened not to break it. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:36, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Egypt closed the border with the Gaza Strip [3] so they clearly enforce the blockade.

Alaexis_¿question? 19:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

To stop a flood of people. Israel threatened Egypt not to deliver aid. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: It's pretty clear who wants this blockade. It's a quacking duck. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:27, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per Iskandar Abo Yemen✉ 12:41, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Untitled post

Unfortunately it looks like we're going to be dealing with a lot of racist arguments claiming that Israel is wrong for implementing this blockade - stay vigilant! 82.38.214.252 (talk) 13:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

If that's what an RS says, or even reports as an opinion, then a criticism should be noted regardless of what any of our opinions are. DarmaniLink (talk) 13:53, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• Is this topic significant enough to merit its own article separate from the main article?VR _talk 14:37, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  Honestly, i question the same

  This may be WP:NOTYET since if it does turn out to be a siege where they deny food (WP:CRYSTAL, water or power then it will likely be notable,

  I'd probably just leave it for now, and merge later if it turns out to not be significant enough. Easier to do that than split later. Though if you nominated this for deletion, I'd support it.

  Do with that what you will. DarmaniLink (talk) 15:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  I also do not understand why this merits its own article outside of the war 46.120.181.59 (talk) 01:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

It’s racist to be opposed to depriving innocent children of water? Wow… 2600:8805:5209:7500:D4F9:8014:C335:D6A3 (talk) 16:08, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

It's racist to put Israel under extreme standards that would not be applied to any other country on earth, yes. 194.80.168.100 (talk) 21:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel pretends to belong to the democratic West, it chooses to be to judged according to these "extreme standards". WikiAfterWiki (talk) 08:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

What other countries have entirely cut off hundreds of thousands of civilians from access to food, water, electricity, medical supplies, and seeking refuge outside of the combat zone? This page should describe the topic in the most neutral terms possible in accordance with Wikipedia standards, but even plainly describing the actions of Israel here and the condemnation of them by humanitarian groups is not going to make them look favorable. Awjohns5 (talk) 18:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes.

In the future, this siege will be remembered as a genocide. This article should be titled 'Gaza Genocide 2023'. But that won't happen any time soon, despite the numerous genocide scholars who have warned of this becoming a genocide. 176.29.235.163 (talk) 12:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks#Should Operation Al-Aqsa Flood by Hamas included in the list of Islamist Terrorist attacks?

An editor has started an RfC asking "Should Operation Al-Aqsa Flood by Hamas be included in the List of Islamist terrorist attacks?" at Talk:List of Islamist terrorist attacks#Should Operation Al-Aqsa Flood by Hamas included in the list of Islamist Terrorist attacks?. Interested editors are invited to participate. TarnishedPath^talk 03:50, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

This is an odd page to post that. – SJ + 06:44, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Data sources for details of shipments per day

I have not found consistent sources for a daily time series of vehicles and people using the crossings, other than the OCHA reports which are amazing but narrative-based and idiosyncratic. It seems it should at least be possible to get a daily estimate of aid trucks that pass through, aid trucks received by UNRWA and the Red Cross, and the # of trucks primarily carrying food, water, and medical supplies. Ideally also an aggregate breakdown of what was included (reports will variously describe by total weight/volume, or number of person-days).

UNRWA + OCHA also have detailed estimates of needs in various categories, how long supplies will last, the total number of people in their encampments, and the total demand beyond strict need. The hospitals likewise have needs (which inform and get filled to some extent by shipments). And UN summary reports will often say things like "kklk

I'd love to have a canonical way to get time series data out, to graph needs and supplies and morbidities over time. I'll try converting OCHA reports to stats to see what the result looks like including all of the interperiod inconsistencies...

Any data sources for these that would allow graphing need and supply over time would be useful. [one-off visuals by data reporters also useful] Any UN or other sources that we can nudge about this? – SJ + 06:44, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

Quote from the article:

This resulted in electricity in Gaza to go off.

Can someone fix the grammar? It should say:

This caused the electricity in Gaza to go off.

or

This resulted in the electricity in Gaza going off.

Thanks 213.8.112.230 (talk) 17:55, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 31 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Given the confusion caused by the out-of-process move in the middle of the RM, and that most !votes were made before that, it's hard to call a clear consensus here. No prejudice against an immediate renomination though, given that there was significant support here.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

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• 2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip → 2023 Gaza siege
• 2023 Gaza siege → 2023 Gaza siege (disambiguation)

– This title needs to move to reflect A) at this time of this posting it's about to enter November and no longer pertain solely to October, B) the language that has been used to describe the intensified blockade, which is "total blockade", "siege" or "complete siege". Sources such as the Times of Israel have quoted Yoav Gallant as declaring a "complete siege", so this is what the military enacting the tactic is itself calling it, per the sources. "Blockade" alone does not really cut it: sources that use "blockade" specify "total blockade" to distinguish it from the long-running Blockade of the Gaza Strip - and that distinction and sense of intensification is pertinent to reflect here. Of the options, "siege" is both significantly more concise than "total blockade" and more distinct from "blockade". As for using "Gaza Strip" versus Gaza, it seems unnecessary in this time stamped WP:NCE event, and when the media often use Gaza alone as the geographical descriptor in an on and off, largely because the meaning in the context is already clear, and Gaza alone is more concise. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Professor Penguino (talk) 06:56, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom Abo Yemen✉ 09:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and Support move to 2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. The best option for now is just to drop the month from the title. First of all, the difference between Gaza and the Gaza Strip it’s really important. Using 2023 siege of Gaza Strip would refer to the 2023 Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip and 2023 siege of Gaza City to the battle/siege that is about to start in the city. Moreover, a blockade is not the same as a siege and changing the title to siege would change the scope of the article. Basque mapping (talk) 10:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and WP:COMMONNAME. TarnishedPath^talk 03:49, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support to distinguish from the historical + ongoing blockade, even though it's a fuzzy line. Common phrase, clearer + shorter title. To Basque's point, sections in the article could cover Gaza City, northern Gaza, and the entire strip. – SJ + 05:29, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and Support move to 2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip or 2023 Siege of the Gaza Strip. It is essential to provide clear distinctions when mentioning Gaza to specify whether it refers to the Gaza Strip or Gaza City. Otherwise, readers could confuse this article with the ongoing Siege of Gaza City. Skitash (talk) 21:16, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Note: the original title was at October 2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip which was boldly moved on 5 November. – robertsky (talk) 16:14, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The RM above

Hi @Iskandar323, Professor Penguino, Abo Yemen, Basque mapping, TarnishedPath, Sj, Skitash, and Robertsky: - just to note that the RM above was closed as "no consensus", mainly because of confusion over a rename that already happened during the RM. But I note that there was considerable support for the proposal to move to 2023 Gaza siege, amid some opposition, so if any editor wishes to immediately re-propose the renaming and see if a consensus can form, then they should feel free to do so. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 19:11, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Some phrasing issues

The article suggests that the 2023 blockade is new, when it is more naturally seen as a tightening of previous restrictions.

1. Replace "On 9 October 2023, Israel imposed a blockade on the Gaza Strip in response to the beginning of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war and attacks in Israel by Hamas militants" with "On 9 October 2023, Israel tightened its blockade of the Gaza Strip in response to the beginning of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war and attacks in Israel by Hamas militants"
2. Change "partial blockade" to "blockade" in the Background section since the source does not use the terminology "partial blockade" and it's not particularly clear what distinguishes a "partial blockade" from a "blockade" in this context.

DMH43 (talk) 20:45, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Ongoing

@WikiCleanerMan: I see you reverted my addition of {{Ongoing}} message, but provided no explanation. Doesn't the event still progress significantly? — Petr Matas 20:18, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Everyone knows this is ongoing. It's been happening since October 2023. And the talk page is tagged with the CE WikiProject banner. CE tag on article space should be for something that is happening in the now or more recently. The blockade isn't recent as of this time and is just an overuse of the template. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2024

"On 9 February 2024, UNRWA's director Philippe Lazzarini said that Israel had blocked food for 1.1 million Palestinians in Gaza.[25]" Reference 25 has an expired link : https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/israel-holding-food-11-million-palestinians-gaza-main-107101377

Updated link: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-unwra-bank-aid-4ed5e0652dd81b875055679a01a19371 Paperbagactivist (talk) 07:32, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. Wikishovel (talk) 07:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Timeline unfinished

The timeline section is unfinished and seems out of place. The descriptions are informal and incomplete, there are missing dates. It should not be part of the article while in this state, I think it should be removed until completed or quickly brought to an acceptable state. Chucklet13 (talk) 22:13, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Gaza Death Toll chart - inappropriate for this topic

Why is the chart "Gaza Death Toll" included in this article? There is no documented relationship between a blockade and the Gaza death toll which is driven by military activities. Brad Einarsen (talk) 05:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Toadette^Edit! 19:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

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2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip → Blockade of the Gaza Strip during the Israel–Hamas war – This isn't a separate blockade from the general Blockade of the Gaza Strip, nor is it limited to 2023. This article covers the blockade during the war (and particularly, its escalation); the title should reflect that. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Your very premise is false, This is a separate blockade from the “general blockade of the Gaza strip”. [1] Stephan rostie (talk) 14:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not a separate blockade. It's an expansion of the overall blockade. Your source does not demonstrate otherwise, nor does your comment otherwise refute the move rationale. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Your source actually demonstrates it is a separate more extreme blockade from the general Blockade of the Gaza Strip when Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed.” He had to specify this siege would be "complete" so Israeli citizens understood it's not the same old thing. [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReZEJPwrM1k

We know that citizens understood the message, because they took it on themselves to physically block aid trucks from getting in. [5]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyGyrz06ljg

2023 applies because that's when it began, just as the War of 1812 ran until 1815. Laurel L. Russwurm (talk) 18:25, 1 May 2024 (UTC) not ec FortunateSons (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There was a previous effort to use "siege" precisely to differentiate this. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Support per move rationale for the sake of consistency, and is also not exclusively Israeli FortunateSons (talk) 11:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Human rights, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Current events, WikiProject International relations, WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, WikiProject Law, WikiProject Discrimination, WikiProject Palestine, and WikiProject Israel have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose this completely contradicts WP:COMMONNAME and against what RS have been reporting [6]. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

How does this contradict COMMONNAME? That source doesn't call it the "2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip" or even include "2023" at all. Elli (talk | contribs) 23:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose on the grounds it removes the year, which it should keep in the majority of cases per our guideline WP:NCEVENTS, with only a minority of exceptions. There have been several blockades of the Gaza Strip, and as a general rule including the year in our events titles is useful to our readers. Removing the year also be WP:INCONSISTENT with the October 2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. Pilaz (talk) 13:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  This wasn't just a 2023 blockade, though, so the date is inaccurate. The relevant date information is "during the war", not "in 2023 and 2024", hence the rename. Also you're claiming this would be inconsistent with... a redirect to this page? What? Elli (talk | contribs) 23:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: The topic here is a specific event that needs dating and which has had various announced names, include blockade, total blockage, siege and total siege. It differs significantly from the long-term blockade, extending not least as it does to the cutting off of electricity, water and other essentials that it is the legal responsibility of the Israeli state to provide to the occupied territories. It is a specific, notable war crime. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose: the use of the phrase "Israel–Hamas war" is misleading because because it is not a war, which Wikipedia describes as "an intense armed conflict between states, governments, societies, or paramilitary groups such as mercenaries, insurgents, and militias" between the state of Israel and Palestinan Freedom Fighters including the military arm of Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Palestine Liberation Organization, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Resistance Movements.

If it were a war, it would be a war between Israel and the captive Palestinian civilian population of Gaza. When Germany conquered France in WWII, it became the belligerent occupation force, and was not said to be at war with the French Resistance. When the occupying German forces punished the innocent captive French civilian population for the actions of the French Resistance, it was not characterized as "war," but collective punishment. Laurel L. Russwurm (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC) not extended-confirmed FortunateSons (talk) 18:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.