Talk:2024 Solingen stabbing

It was ISIS

[1]https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/islamic-state-claims-responsibility-knife-attack-germanys-solingen-2024-08-24/ 80.99.145.136 (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Yep, it was an Islamic State perp. "Police arrested a 26-year-old Syrian as a suspect. He had come to Germany in December 2022 and was recognized as a refugee; the security authorities had not previously suspected him of being an Islamist. Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attack in a message distributed on its mouthpiece Amaq. The perpetrator described himself as an 'IS soldier' who had taken revenge for the Muslims in Palestine and elsewhere." Footmanmuch (talk) 02:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

They also released a photo and video showing the attacker pledging allegiance to the group, and showing him at the festival moments before the attack Alexander141104 (talk) 21:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Did the suspect confess or not?

parexampel , - Anis Amri .

He wanted to make a confession. To explain everything in detail.195.244.164.66 (talk) 14:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

IS Claim

The IS has been known to claim responsibility for attacks they are not part of. The IS attackers are usually expected to die during the operation; see Paris where the surviving attacker(s) explicitly did not receive any glorification (in contrast to the ones that died).

The fact that the IS claims responsibility for the attack without the suspect dying (or having even been named) sounds very suspicious. Even if the attacker is a Muslim and an immigrant you have to differentiate in order to find the root issue. Bbhh33 (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

First of all its a misconception that IS "claims attacks they have nothing to do with" just because of the Los Vegas attack, 99% of the time theyre not lying.

In regards to the suspect surviving, its nothing new, the Crocus city hall attackers survived, the 2017 and 2024 Istanbul attackers survived, Salah Abdeslm survived, and many others have survived.

Also IS just released a video of the attacker split into 3 clips, one pledging allegiance, and the other 2 of him delivering a message while heading towards- and being at the festival moments before the attack. Alexander141104 (talk) 21:23, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Picture of attack location

There appears to be no open source images available of the market where the attack has taken place. If any wikipedians in the local area would be willing to take a picture and license it for use on commons it would be appreciated and helpful to improve the articles quality. Kcmastrpc (talk) 20:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I found this Flickr set which might have something usable. All licensed CC BY-SA 2.0. Funcrunch (talk) 21:15, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Difference between terrorism and Islamic terrorism

While the German government hasn’t classed this as terrorism it falls under Islamic terrorism as ISIS has claimed responsibility for it the following should be changed

a mass stabbing occurred during a festival celebrating the —-> a Islamic terrorist attack happened in the form of mass stabbing occurred during a festival celebrating the

source : https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-stabbing-suspect-is-26-year-old-man-who-admitted-crime-police-say-2024-08-25/ John Bois (talk) 07:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Just because Islamic State makes a claim of terrorism does not make it so. The article can (so far) only reflect that it is a claim, not a fact. WWGB (talk) 07:59, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Have you looked at the source and read about the difference between terrorism and Islamic terrorism? Multilple outpost have confirmed it to be true John Bois (talk) 08:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

So you think that, just because IS claims responsibility for an attack, that automatically makes it Islamic terrorism, with no further proof required? From which reliable sources did you arrive at that conclusion? WWGB (talk) 08:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes because all ISIS attacks are due to Islamic jihadist this makes it Islamic terrorism not to mention it’s been CONFIRMED It was ISIS it’s no longer a CLAIM John Bois (talk) 08:16, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Prosecutors are now stating that the perp has radical Islamist convictions. This is according to Reuters. 2601:18E:C37C:3D00:F90A:74C3:842C:FBB0 (talk) 20:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

ISIS has officially claimed responsibility

Sources:

Many sources have now confirmed it is ISIS

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/24/world/europe/solingen-germany-knife-attack.html

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-stabbing-suspect-is-26-year-old-man-who-admitted-crime-police-say-2024-08-25/

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/8/24/isil-claims-responsibility-for-stabbing-attack-in-germanys-solingen

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/crime/germany-solingen-stabbing-isis-terrorist-attack-b2601472.html John Bois (talk) 07:58, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

IS claims responsibility, that is different to confirming it is true. WWGB (talk) 08:01, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

ISIS claimed responsibility which at the time wasn’t confirmed it’s now been determined as a FACT that it was ISIS John Bois (talk) 08:03, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Please provide even one reliable source which reports as a fact that IS carried out the attack. WWGB (talk) 08:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

4 listed here another 1 listed in “it was Isis” listed above… John Bois (talk) 08:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

New York Times: The federal prosecutor’s office is on standby to take over the case, should the authorities conclude that the attack was a terrorist act.

Reuters: [Islamic State] did not immediately provide any evidence for its assertion and it was not clear how close any relationship between the attacker and Islamic State was.

Aljazeera: Faeser, the country’s top security official, has not classified it as a terror attack.

Independent: On Saturday the Islamic State militant group claimed responsibility for the attack, without providing evidence. The claim couldn’t immediately be verified. WWGB (talk) 10:29, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think you understand the difference between terrorist attack and Islamic terrorist attack John Bois (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

"On Sunday afternoon, the federal prosecutor’s office said it believed the suspect, identified only as Issa Al H. in keeping with strict German privacy rules, had joined the Islamic State."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/25/world/europe/germany-festival-attack.html 2601:18E:C37C:3D00:F90A:74C3:842C:FBB0 (talk) 21:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

The suspect “shared the ideology” of the terrorist organization and “joined the group at an undeterminable” time before Friday’s attack, Ines Peterson, spokeswoman for the federal prosecutor, said in a statement Sunday. 2601:18E:C37C:3D00:F90A:74C3:842C:FBB0 (talk) 21:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

German prosecutors are now saying that '"due to his radical Islamist convictions" he tried to kill as many people as possible that he considered to be non-believers, stabbing them repeatedly in the neck and upper body.' https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-stabbing-suspect-is-26-year-old-man-who-admitted-crime-police-say-2024-08-25/#:~:text=Prosecutors%20said%20%22due%20to%20his%20radical%20Islamist%20convictions%22%20he%20tried%20to%20kill%20as%20many%20people%20as%20possible%20that%20he%20considered%20to%20be%20non%2Dbelievers%2C%20stabbing%20them%20repeatedly%20in%20the%20neck%20and%20upper%20body. The article is limited with regards to editing. This should be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:18E:C37C:3D00:F90A:74C3:842C:FBB0 (talk) 20:22, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2024

• Description: The article continues to describe the perpetrator's membership in the Islamic State as merely suspected and under investigation, despite the fact that the German federal prosecutor has already asserted that the perpetrator was, in fact, a member of the Islamic State.

• Relevance: This information is relevant insofar as it provides context for the perpetrator's actions, including their potential motives, the nature of the incident, and the continued threat posed by the Islamic State.

• Source: Schuetze, Christopher F. (25 August 2024). "German Prosecutor Says Islamic State Terrorist Link Is Suspected in Festival Stabbings". The New York Times. Retrieved 26 August 2024. On Sunday afternoon, the federal prosecutor's office said it believed the suspect […] had joined the Islamic State. […] The suspect "shared the ideology" of the terrorist organization and "joined the group at an undeterminable" time before Friday's attack, Ines Peterson, spokeswoman for the federal prosecutor, said in a statement Sunday.

• Detailed edits requested:

−

A Syrian man armed with a knife killed three people and injured eight others.

+

A Syrian man, believed by German prosecutors to be a member of the Islamic State and armed with a knife, killed three people and injured eight others.

−

The suspect is believed to have links to the Islamic State, which has claimed responsibility for the attack.

+

The Islamic State has claimed responsibility for the attack.

−

The suspect, a Sunni Muslim, was born in Deir ez-Zor, Syria, and had not been identified by authorities as an Islamic extremist.

+

The suspect, a Sunni Muslim, was born in Deir ez-Zor, Syria, and had not been identified by authorities as an Islamic extremist before the incident.

−

On the same day, prosecutors stated that he "shared the radical ideology of the Islamic State extremist group".

+

On the same day, prosecutors stated that he "shared the radical ideology of the Islamic State extremist group" and that they believed he joined the group at an "undeterminable" time prior to the terrorist attack.

−

{{Mass stabbings in the 2020s}}

+

{{Islamic terrorism in Europe}} {{Mass stabbings in the 2020s}}

83.8.43.217 (talk) 11:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Based on the source, believed is an important distinction. Wikivoice should be careful here, and I would not be opposed to introducing these changes with such modifiers. Eg., A syrian man, who is believed to identify as a member of the ..., prosecutors stated that they believed he "shared the radical ideology... Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kcmastrpc: I completely agree; it is absolutely imperative that we exercise due diligence to ensure that we always present a neutral stance and clearly distinguish between facts, opinions, and suspicions. The second paragraph of the source article in the New York Times is missing the qualifier that is present in the first one, and I think I may have inadvertently omitted it as well. Oh well. Anyway, I have now updated my proposal for the changes in the {{TextDiff}}s above, though I believe your examples are also suitable. If you concur, I believe we can proceed with either. And, of course, I must thank you for your time in responding to this edit request. =) 83.8.43.217 (talk) 14:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. MadGuy7023 (talk) 07:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Amaq news agency posted a video of the attacker giving bayah

https://take-me-to.space/U0gVfjED.mp4 the attacker is shown pledging allegiance to Abu Hafs al Hashimi al Qurashi TheLibyanGuy (talk) 12:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Is this not proof? TheLibyanGuy (talk) 00:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Polygnotus what proof does anyone need to confirm that ISIS did it? TheLibyanGuy (talk) 16:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources already reported on who claimed responsibility. We don't need a video of that idiot. Polygnotus (talk) 16:32, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

See https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/25/germany-mass-stabbing-suspect-solingen-attacker-arrest-says-regional-minister Note that IS is not ISIS and vice versa. Polygnotus (talk) 16:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

but why is no one allowed to add the categories in relations to the attack (Islamic terrorism, IS), even when those reliable sources make the link beyond reasonable doubt? TheLibyanGuy (talk) 16:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you link a WP:DIFF please? I haven't seen anyone add or remove a category afaik. Polygnotus (talk) 16:58, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I think you mean this one. We can ask @DeFacto: Polygnotus (talk) 16:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

here. Note that the attack was also rooted in anti Christian sentiment and was framed as a retaliation to the events in Iraq, Palestine, Syria, etc. TheLibyanGuy (talk) 17:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, this was three days ago. It is not unlikely that reliable sources back then had not yet reported on it. Looking at this edit, the WP:EDITSUMMARY is: per WP:BLPCRIME and WP:CATVER as the article does not support any of these in Wiki's voice. Perhaps the changing circumstances have changed their mind. Polygnotus (talk) 17:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I have left a message on their talkpage inviting them to join us here. Perhaps it is possible to form a new WP:CONSENSUS. Since we are WP:NOTNEWS we are in no hurry. Polygnotus (talk) 17:23, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@Polygnotus, thanks for the call - what's the question? -- DeFacto (talk). 19:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Hiya @DeFacto:! TheLibyanGuy wondered if the categories that were removed [2] [3] could be restored and, if so, which of them. Polygnotus (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:CATVER says "It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories".

Adding those categories would, effectively, be asserting in Wiki's voice that this incident was terrorism or was persecution of Christians or was anti-Christian. As the article never asserts that the incident was terrorism (a politician characterising it as such is only his opinion and an unconfirmed and unverified claim by some group of responsibility isn't proof of anything). Also there is no mention at all anywhere in the article of persecution or of it being anti-Christian. So clearly, the article does not support the inclusion of either of those categories. So, per CATVER, they should not be added. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

ok, but what evidence needs to be provided to make the link with IS beyond reasonable doubt? Why is it an “unsubstantiated claim”? TheLibyanGuy (talk) 21:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

We need the balance of secondary reliable sources to say, in their own voices, that this was an IS action, and not just that IS claimed it was. That'll mean that they have verified it, and believe it to be true. See WP:V and WP:NPOV. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:23, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Why is this a source of contention? TheLibyanGuy (talk) 00:59, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that until the allegations and claims are verified by the courts and secondary sources it cannot be asserted in Wiki's voice as fact, which includes adding categories, that it was a terrorism act or which organisation (if any) was responsible. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Why can’t there just be “citation needed”? And even so, do those sources contest IS’ claim of responsibility for the attack? TheLibyanGuy (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Name of suspect

Meanwhile, several German media are giving the name as "Issa al Hasan" or "Issa al-Hassan":

• https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/wer-ist-issa-al-hasan-was-bislang-uber-den-attentater-von-solingen-bekannt-ist-12264302.html
• https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/innenpolitik/id_100476266/terror-anschlag-in-solingen-issa-al-hassan-erfand-wohl-onkel-in-deutschland.html
• https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/id_100474962/terror-anschlag-in-solingen-issa-al-hassan-erfand-wohl-onkel-in-deutschland.html
• https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/innenpolitik/id_100475868/solingen-darum-wurde-issa-al-hassan-nicht-abgeschoben.html
• https://www.merkur.de/politik/abschiebungen-afghanistan-syrien-solingen-anschlag-messer-angriff-cdu-spd-scholz-ampel-93263922.html
• https://www.nzz.ch/international/solingen-wie-die-bundesregierung-bei-abschiebungen-von-asylmigranten-versagt-ld.1845449
• https://de.nachrichten.yahoo.com/issa-al-hassan-26-syrien-100844425.html
• https://de.yahoo.com/nachrichten/sollte-abgeschoben-asyl-versagen-solingen-080332493.html
• https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/der-wusste-genau-was-er-tat-attentaeter-wollte-unbedingt-nach-deutschland-dann-begann-das-katz-und-maus-spiel_id_260256882.html
• https://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/bewohner-des-solinger-fluechtlingsheims-bieten-geschichten-fuer-500-euro-an_id_260257154.html
• https://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/issa-al-hassan-aus-syrien-26-abschiebe-versagen-neue-details-zur-fluchtroute-das-ist-der-attentaeter-von-solingen_id_260253515.html
• https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/solingen-terrorist-issa-al-hasan-ein-detail-macht-den-behoerden-richtig-angst-66cc15880f2ad15e27618808
• https://www.bild.de/regional/nordrhein-westfalen/solingen-nrw-ist-das-video-des-is-nach-dem-anschlag-echt-beweis-66cca501185f8548c549196e
• https://www.bild.de/news/inland/messer-terror-in-solingen-hier-nimmt-die-polizei-den-attentaeter-fest-66cacc95b285b05435e62e8c
• https://www.bz-berlin.de/meinung/kolumne/kolumne-mein-aerger/messer-3
• https://www.berliner-kurier.de/panorama/skandal-um-solingen-terroristen-geld-vom-staat-statt-abschiebung-li.2248701
• https://www.watson.ch/international/deutschland/670376268-solingen-tatverdaechtiger-issa-al-hassan-erfand-wohl-onkel-in-deutschland

Should he be named here, too? --77.13.46.153 (talk) 06:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

No, per WP:BLPCRIME. What value would it add to the article? -- DeFacto (talk). 07:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:WELLKNOWN also applies, and there is no benefit the suspect remaining unnamed on Wikipedia since a large number of reliable sources have published the suspects name. Precedence has already been set on a large number of notable crimes that have WP:SIGCOV. We can go the WP:RFC route if we need to, but the usual outcomes of such unnecessary procedure has been to include (especially with high profile incidents, such as this). Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:33, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@77.13.46.153 If all sources naming him are foreign sources, it may be more suitable for the German Wikipedia rather than the US one. Unless US sources are covering the suspect and naming in depth, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for the English Wikipedia to go based off of german sources. While BLPCRIME applies as @DeFacto: mentioned, it doesn't prevent naming, but associating the individual with the crime. For a more relevant policy, see WP:BLPNAME which is specifically for names being involved with crimes.

Awshort (talk) 22:23, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no “US” Wikipedia. We don’t prioritize sources based on where they are from. We only look at their reliability. Thriley (talk) 00:52, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Thriley I think you missed my point. If the only sources covering a crime and naming a suspect are outside of the US and US based sources are choosing not to name them, it should point towards exclusion.

We had a similar incident with a stabbing in I believe France recently that the name wasn't widely distributed in America but was in French newspapers, from what I remember. We excluded in that one. Awshort (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Killing of Nahel Merzouk, police officer named only as Florian M. WWGB (talk) 05:54, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

"... to a local police patrol"

"turned himself in to the local police patrol".--The version in the title, is maybe better.--After all, the city does not have only one police patrol, at a time. 2001:2020:359:8904:298A:C4BA:BD57:D0DC (talk) 16:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Dubious

The article says:

After the attack, the political debate about concrete consequences first centred around making the German weapons law more stringent. Vice-chancellor Robert Habeck of the Greens expressed support for such a measure, while saying it was uncertain if this could have prevented the attack. The debate shifted to issues of right of abode after it transpired that the suspect was a rejected asylum seeker.

But Politico says:

Even before any details about the assailant were released, the far-right Alternative for Germany party (AfD) immediately was framing the killings as a migrant attack.

https://www.politico.eu/article/german-far-right-afd-knife-attack-solingen-state-elections/

Also, as far as I understand it, a rejected asylum seeker has no right of abode so it seems more likely that the discussion focused on things like immigration/repatriation/deportation.

And of course the term "migrant attack" is just something made up by a spindoctor.

dw.com does not appear to support the claim made in the article that "The debate shifted to issues of right of abode".

rnd.de does say:

Doch die Debatte läuft anders, seit bekannt wurde, dass der tatverdächtige Syrer ein Asylbewerber ist, der im vergangenen Jahr bereits abgeschoben werden sollte.

My translation: However, the debate has shifted since it became known that the Syrian suspect is an asylum seeker who was supposed to be deported last year.

but nothing about the right of abode.

Therefore, I removed the words "to issues of right of abode ".

Polygnotus (talk) 14:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

My good faith interpretation is that the editor likely read/heard about it from another source, and grabbed the first article the found on the topic.

Either way, good removal until/if this is sourced. DarmaniLink (talk) 15:19, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Thats more like a "Politico" opinion piece by v.d. Burchard and Posaner. They link an AFD tweet by Höcke which is vague enough to be open to interpretation (no migrant or asylum mentioned) and there is no real resemblance to the early desinformation on X which helped to trigger the Southport riots in the U.K.. It wouldnt use it as a source. Alexpl (talk) 09:22, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Chiming in as "the editor" referred to here without having been pinged. I agree that my translation "right of abode" was not quite right in spite of what appears to me as possible defence [4]. Thanks for removing. I don't remember exactly what I thought making the edit, but I was likely influenced by the fact that the English word "deportation" has problematic connotations to people who are from a German speaking background and are not very fluent in English; though I would also agree that this is secondary here.

The rule WP:AGF is crystal clear. At the risk of sounding quarrelsome, explicitly specifying that it was followed is in my view not very polite. Same goes for alleging baselessly that I "grabbed the first article". We can do better for sure.

The section title "Dubious" is highly unspecific. More precise titles are a courtesy to the reader, also given the amount of material on the talk pages.--CRau080 (talk) 09:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@CRau080: If you use the template {{Dubious}} without specifying a second parameter then the "discuss" link links to a section on the talkpage with that title. So the talkpage section is named after the template. Polygnotus (talk) 05:39, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for alerting me to this fact, which I didn't know.--17:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC) CRau080 (talk) 17:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)