Talk:Adolescence of Utena

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Adolescence of Utena/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Gabriel Yuji (talk · contribs) 21:08, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

I'll review it as soon as possible, Morgan695. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

General

I've noticed you sometimes use the British style for dates (i.e. in the references) but sometimes the American one (i.e. in the body). Choose one of them and keep it consistent. If you opt for American style, be aware of MOS:DATECOMMA.

 Resolved

Lead

• You could use a brief descriptor to J.C.Staff like "animation studio" just to contextualize readers unfamiliar with Japanese stuff.

 Resolved

You'd added the descriptors then you removed them in this edit. Probably it was done by mistake, but I'm asking, just in case. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 01:23, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

 Resolved

Context

• Everything seems fine.

Plot

• As a disclaimer, I didn't watch the film, so I'm asking questions solely based on your text. I found it to be ambiguous sometimes. For example, the following two sentences make me conclude different thins from the same fact; they are:
  • "Elsewhere, Juri's childhood friend Shiori Takatsuki tells Touga that as a child, her "prince" died attempting to save a drowning girl" (emphasis mine)
  • "Utena searches for Anthy and finds Touga, and suddenly remembers that Touga died attempting to save Juri from drowning when they were children; she thanks him for being her "prince", and he vanishes" (emphasis mine)
• From the first sentence, it's not clear to whom the "her" is referring to. I thought it referred to Shiori because she is the one whos is telling the fact, so the prince should be hers. However, the second sentence says Touga tried to save Juri, so I deduce that actually Touga is Juri's Prince. However, again the "her" is ambiguous because Utena is the who is thanking Touga so it reads like he is Utena's prince. I'm not totally sure. Maybe can he be the prince of the three girls or just Juri's?

• Partially implemented In this context, when Shiori and Utena are referring to their "prince", they are both referring to Touga. It's somewhat confusing, but so is the rest of the movie, haha. The movie (and Revolutionary Girl Utena generally) uses the term "prince" in a somewhat abstract manner, referencing a sort of ideal of a fairytale prince rather than literal royalty.

• Ok. So make it clear on the text to whom the "her"'s are referring to. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 16:25, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

 Resolved I've tried to phrase it in a way that makes sense. If it's still unclear it's probably because I'm too deep in the material to have an outsider's perspective on it, so any suggestions you have to make it clearer would be appreciated.

Cast

• Fine.

Development

• Again, some descriptors would be nice. For Shogakukan, "publisher" is enough; but I don't know what GANSIS is.

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• According to WP:A&M/I#Situational, Anime News Network's encyclopedia is not a reliable source, so the currently ref #5.

 Resolved Replaced with film source.

• What's the reliability of ref #6? It seems like just a fan forum for Utena. From the sources they gather, it seems they are very dedicated. But being dedicated don't make them a reliable source (it's fine, however, to use actual sources they provide).

 Resolved Replaced with a straight descriptive sentence Be-Papas developed the film, and a brief explanation of what Be-Papas is.

• Just to be registered for the future, I was a bit suspicious about ref #7 as it seems like a blog by a random person. Nevertheless, Vrai Kaiser seems to have some relevance as she writes for The Mary Sue ([1]). Btw, did you check The Mary Sue? They have two article that cite "Adolescence of Utena". On a sidenote, you cite her blog as "The Consulting Analyst", but it seems to be called "Fashionable Tinfoil Accessories" (and "The Consulting Analyst" thing seems to be a part of it).

 Resolved In the case where that reference was being used to cite a quote from the film's director, I've found the actual interview and cited it directly.

• You should add Musashino University to the "publisher" parameter of ref #8.

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• "Saito advocated for a prominent role for Touga in the film, who is depicted as more overly heroic compared to his arrogant and manipulative personality in the anime series". Although I did find Touga's mention in ref #10, it only seems to cover "Saito advocated for a prominent role for Touga in the film" but there's nothing about his personality.

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Animation

• "[...] prompting Ikuhara and colorist Hiroshi Kaneda to exhaustively re-transfer the film". It should be "retransfer" without hyphen, according to Meriam-Webster.

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Soundtrack

• I have the same concern about ref #15 that I've commented about ref #6.

 Resolved Replaced primary source.

• I didn't find any specific discussion about the use of song name's translation in MOS:MUSIC#Names (foreign language), WP:NCM nor WP:MJ#Titles of media, but I'd recommend you not to translate the names by yourself. I mean, I'd keep the original names and use Template:Lit. like you did in the lead.

 Resolved Replaced with English titles of the songs from the North American release of the CD.

Release

• In North America, the film premiered at Anime Expo in Anaheim, California, held from June 30 to July 3, 2000". The sources for it is ref #17, but the closest thing to it I've found in the source is "The Adolescence of Utena" premiered last July at Anime Expo to an enthusiastic fan response." So, the fact that it was in Anaheim and that it was between June 30 to July 3 are not covered by the source.

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• You've added this site as a source, declaring it's published by Anime Expo. While they link to Anime Expo site several times, they don't seem to be related to it. Actually, their homepage indicates they cover anime events in general. AE's official site is this one. I've found this Los Angeles Time report, which is far more reliable. Although it doesn't write off the exact dates, it says "Anime Expo 2000: Friday through Monday at the Anaheim Convention Center, Disneyland Resort and Pacific hotels", so I think it's okay to use. It also states it was "the first U.S. screening of the feature", so it's even better. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 16:25, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

 Resolved Thanks!

• Ref#18 is missing its publication date; you can find it here.

 Resolved

• "The film was screened multiple times throughout the convention, with Ikuhara and Saito in attendance for certain screenings.[18][16]". Just a very minor niptick, but change the references order to [16][18].

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Home media

• "In Japan, Adolescence of Utena was released on VHS and DVD by King Records on March 3, 2000". I don't see the date in the ref #20.

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• "Takayuki Karahashi, who translated the film, was personally selected by Ikuhara". I didn't find the mention to Takayuki Karahashi in the ref #23 (well, it does refer to "Taka", but how do you know his full name?). On a sidenote, why did you chose to include "(via Empty Movement)" on it but not in refs #8 or #17. I don't have a preference; I only recommend to be consistent.

• Partially implemented I confirmed just now by checking the film's credits that Takayuki Karahashi was its translator; I think it's a safe assumption that a person with the pet name "Taka" who is specifically referenced as being the translator for the film is the same person, but not enough to fight over it if you disagree. Made the crediting of Empty Movement across references consistent.

• Okay, so cite the film itself for the translator's full name. Regarding the crediting of Empty Movement, you can use the parameter "via=". Maybe it works better. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 16:25, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

 Resolved

• "Adolescence of Utena was released in North America on DVD and VHS October 23, 2001". Needs a source.

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• You can use Template:Cite press release for refs #24 and #28

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• "In Australia, Adolescence of Utena was licensed by Hanabee, which released the film on DVD November 20, 2013"; on November 20, 2013?

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Manga

• Refs #29 and #32 are unreliable for the same reason ref #5 is. Brown, however, may help you with the American publication date. Btw, are there other manga reviews? They could be mentioned in contrast to the film.

 Resolved Replaced sources and added manga reviews to Reception section.

Why didn't you include Brown? Gabriel Yuji (talk) 16:25, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

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Other media

• "June 8th" → "June 8", according to MOS:BADDATE

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• Ref #32 should be replaced because it's from ANN encyclopedia.

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Reception

• Nothing more to add from the Mike Tole's commentary on the film (ref #34)? I think the "one of the most interesting anime movies of the 90s and one of the prettiest animated films ever made" bit is quite interesting.
• What are the credentials of refs #37 and #38 that make them reliable?
• As a suggestion, you can use this source; THEM Anime is okay, according to WP:A&M/I.

 Resolved Rewrote the reception section with expanded info and more reliable sourcing per your suggestion.

• Ah, checking the Anime Expo issue, I've noticed that Animefringe can also be used in reception; the writer says, "I also highly enjoyed the movie. The artwork was sheer beauty, and the music was definitely masterful."

 Resolved

Unfortunately I'm a little busy in real life, so I'll have to stop it for now and I'll comment about "Themes and analysis" later. So far, it's been a good read and has good potential to be a GA. Nice job, Morgan695! Some sources are of dubious reliability but the prose and the content is good. I'll give you time to reply to my concerns; feel free to disagree. Cheers, Gabriel Yuji (talk) 00:18, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

:Before I forget, this ANN interview has an interesting information about the movie being less restrictive than the original manga. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 00:20, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Continuing:

Themes and analysis

• Fine.

Car transformation scene

• Fine.

Gender and sexuality

• You forgot to add the source after "Utena invests in the romantic notion of revolution as being capable of fundamentally changing the world by erasing categories of gender and sexuality, even as it invests in these very categories".

 Resolved

Canonical status

• "The film has been compared by critics in this regard to The End of Evangelion, another similarly symbol-dense anime film that occupies an ambiguous place in its series' continuity". Two sources are given here, but ref #7 doesn't even mention The End of Evangelion; and the other sources only say "it matches the high-end animation quality of The End of Evangelion" and that "This is an incredibly weird, but beautifully made movie which I would recommend to any anime fan who does not cringe at same-sex couples, likes a good sword fight and managed to enjoy the last half of The End of Evangelion." It doesn't compare it relative to the symbol density or its canonical status.

 Resolved Probably my own WP:OR leaking in; the film gets jokingly referred to as The End of Utena in fan communities because of how thematically similar it and End of Evangelion are, but I couldn't find a reliable source to substantiate that fact. I did add a reliable source comparing the two films under "Themes and analysis", though.

And that's all, Morgan695. Ping me when you're done. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 20:24, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your review. I'll do some of the notes that are low-hanging fruit now, and work on the others in the coming days. Morgan695 (talk) 23:01, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Gabriel Yuji I've done my first pass on your comments. Morgan695 (talk) 04:09, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Gabriel Yuji Second pass completed.

Morgan695 I've passed because it's okay right now. However, I still have doubts on the sentence "Juri's childhood friend Shiori Takatsuki tells Touga that as a child, her "prince" died attempting to save a drowning girl". The "her" is referring to Shiori or Juri; if it's referring to Shiori its wording is okay right now; however, if it's referring to Juri you should reword it. Also, I've mentioned above this ANN interview, in which Saito says "There were some aspects to the story that she could not publish for in a Magazine for a younger age group. This however became less of a limiting factor with The Adolescence of Utena." Maybe it's interesting, maybe not. I'm just asking you to confirm you've checked it. Anyway, nice job! Gabriel Yuji (talk) 18:03, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Gabriel Yuji It is indeed referring to Shiori. And I felt that the info from that article was adequately captured in "As the manga was published in a special edition of Bessatsu Shōjo Comic aimed at a josei audience (older teenage girls and adult women), it maintains a more mature tone relative to the original Revolutionary Girl Utena manga and anime.", but I've added that ANN article as a secondary reference. Thank you for your review! Morgan695 (talk) 18:39, 3 December 2019 (UTC)