Talk:Annie Dove Denmark

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 22:49, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

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[[File:|140px|Annie Dove Denmark ]]

Annie Dove Denmark

• ...
  • ALT1: ... that president Annie Dove Denmark (pictured) oversaw Anderson College's transition to a two-year junior college? Source: They That Wait (Hester, 1969), p. 79, 81.
  • ALT1a: ... that president Annie Dove Denmark (pictured) oversaw Anderson College's transition from a four-year women's college to a co-educational two-year junior college? Source: They That Wait (Hester, 1969), p. 79, 81.
  • ALT2: ... that Annie Dove Denmark (pictured) was offered residency on campus for the rest of her life after resigning as president of Anderson College? Source: "Former Anderson College president Annie Dove Denmark succumbs"
  • ALT3: ... that former president Annie Dove Denmark (pictured) is the namesake of a society for graduating students, an award for non-alumni, and a dormitory at Anderson University? Source: "Women's History Month: Dr. Annie Dove Denmark was a pioneering president at Anderson", "The HomeTowner: Anderson", "Denmark Hall Historical Marker"
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Megan Coyne

Created by PCN02WPS (talk). Self-nominated at 18:59, 30 August 2022 (UTC).

• A very well-done article, PCN02WPS! Hook is of appropriate length, well-sourced, neutral and interesting. The article itself appears to be thoroughly sourced and neutral, and to meet DYK-relevant policies including avoidance of plagiarism. Just need a QPQ. ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 19:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Ezlev, thanks very much for the quick review! QPQ has been added. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:59, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
    • Approved! ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 19:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS, Ezlev, and Kavyansh.Singh: I'm reopening this nom, as the hook fact appears to be inaccurate. From [1] and [2] it seems that a Euphemia McClintock became president of the Presbyterian College for women in 1902, being described at the time as the "pioneer lady college president in South Carolina". I'm always wary about "firsts" of this nature, because you're sort of relying on the source that says that to have done a full and thorough search for alternatives. I'd suggest removing that fact from the article and thinking of a new hook. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 13:08, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

That is quite disappointing but thanks Amakuru for pointing this out. I have removed the mention of that fact in the lead but kept it in the body (pointing out that it is commonly cited but wrong and naming McClintock), as I think it's important to at least acknowledge that it is a well-known fact about her (even if the fact is incorrect) as it is mentioned in basically every source I was able to find about her. I will add a new couple of alts shortly. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Ezlev, I have added alts if you'd like to review these; there also might be a picture swap relatively soon (pending a response from AU's library staff) as the current image is a derivative work. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 17:27, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

ALTs look good, PCN02WPS. I find ALT1a and ALT2 most interesting. Because of the photo issue, I'll wait to approve, since I think it'd be cool if this ran with a portrait – ping me when that gets resolved one way or the other? ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 17:40, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Will do, thank you! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 17:50, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

• @PCN02WPS: Has this been resolved yet? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:46, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Not yet, I am in correspondence with library staff at AU currently but I'm not sure what we'll be able to get out of it. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS: If it's not resolved soon, would you be okay with the hook running without an image? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: I think we may have to do that anyway - it is not looking especially hopeful that I will get a whole lot to work with, and potentially no more than a fair use for this image. I think we're good to proceed without the image here. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

• New reviewer needed to check the ALT hooks. Note that the image is not eligible for promotion due to abovementioned issues. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:20, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
  • BlueMoonset, I think ezlev approved those hooks on 5 September but didn't put a tick mark because we were waiting to see what the deal would be with the image. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:06, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Pinging Ezlev to verify this and potentially give this a tick. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:11, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Yes, verified ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 20:42, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Annie Dove Denmark/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sammielh (talk · contribs) 11:37, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

I'll take a look at this article. I've starting making comments below. The article is in really good shape so most comments are quite minor points. Sammielh (talk) 11:37, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Lead and Infobox

• "and she had gained the full support of the trustees by December of that year"
• Link South Carolina Baptist Convention
• "that still remains as the longest in Anderson's history"
  •  All done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:55, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Early life and education

• "raised with close ties to both the church..." Is there a source for which denomination?
  • I don't think so, but I will double-check my sources. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• "during her youth from 1897, at the age of nine or ten,[c] until 1908.[7]" this sentence is a bit convoluted, perhaps "between 1897, when she was nine or ten,[c] until 1908.[7]"
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:57, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Career

• "at Buies Creek Academy—now Campbell University—..." In all previous instances of a university changing names, you've linked the original name, I don't have a preference but it should be consistent
  • I'm not sure I understand -- from what I can find, I refer to a school's present-day name five times, and each time the present-day name is linked: Anderson University (lead), Meredith College (lead), Campbell University (career), Shorter University (career), and Anderson again (career). I can't find an instance where I link the original name when it's written next to the present-day name. In the lead I do link "Buies Creek Academy" to Campbell's page and "Shorter College" to Shorter University but that is because (a) they are not all that central to her life (at least, compared to Meredith and Anderson) and (b) the present-day names are given in the "Career" section. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
    • It's the Baptist University for Women vs Meredith College in 'Early life and education' Sammielh (talk) 22:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
      •  Done ah, good catch. I missed that one. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:49, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• "She received a net monthly salary of $36 in this position, getting a total of $45 monthly and spending $9 on board" This might be a good place to use {{inflation}}
  •  Done added for all three values. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• I'm not a huge fan of 'getting' in "getting a total of $45 monthly"... perhaps "being paid a total of $45 monthly", as I believe this is a bit clearer
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• Link J. A. Campbell
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• "During the 1916–1917 academic year, she traveled back to New York to study at the Virgil Piano School under Alberto Jonás,[8] and Denmark joined the faculty of Anderson College—now Anderson University—in Anderson, South Carolina, as instructor of piano and harmony in 1917.[8] " I think this should be two separate sentences as I'm not seeing how they are related
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• "as the instructor of piano and harmony in 1917"
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• "Denmark also served as the director of religious activities in addition to teaching"
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• Do we know what her B.A. from Anderson was in?
  • None of the sources mentioned it from what I remember but I will go back and double-check. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• "That same year, Denmark was appointed dean of women at Anderson by President John E. White" I don't think we need Anderson repeated here
  •  Removed PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• "Dr. Charles E. Burts and Dr. R. C. Burts, brothers who were both from Newberry, South Carolina, each refused the job, and Dr. A. J. Barton, from Nashville, Tennessee,..." I'm not sure what the locations add; is it meant to indicate that they aren't teaching at Anderson at the time? If they are, I would replace this with their position at the college (if known), otherwise I would replace it with the university where they were teaching (again, if known)
  • This was the only information given in the book but I have found a bit more from Find A Grave (which I am aware is unreliable per WP:RSP, which is why this information isn't in the article at present, though it does reference The State, so I might be able to find that if necessary): upon the death of their father in 1920, Rev. Charles E. Burts was general secretary of the SC Baptist Convention and a pastor in Columbia and Rev. R.C. Burts was the superintendent of city schools in Rock Hill. As for Barton, this website claims he was a church minister in Texas around 1910. From what I've seen, none had any connection with Anderson at the time. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
    • I assume the source says only where they were originally from then, so there's no way to know if they were in those cities at the time. If there's no other information, that's fine. Sammielh (talk) 22:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
      • Yeah, unfortunately that's all we have. I figured it was better to give that info with the names than just the names by themselves. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:49, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
        • Agreed. Sammielh (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
• Do we know who J. Dexter Brown is?
  • No, not really; the text from the source is as follows: We have no official record of events leading up to the election of Dr. Denmark as president. We do know that Mr. J. Dexter Brown first suggested her name because he knew of her ability. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:47, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
    • Okay, no problem. Sammielh (talk) 22:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
• "at their meeting on December 15, 1927, meeting To avoid the awkwardly placed comma
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I'll keep going through the rest of the prose and the sources as soon as possible. Sammielh (talk) 11:37, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

@Sammielh most of the suggestions above are done, some responses left as well. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:49, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Rest of Career

• "by declaring that day to be the inaugural observation of the college's annual Founders Day"
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• "and then pledging $5,000 of her own to the school" It may not state but was this meant to be a loan or a gift?
  •  Done This was a gift, I have specified this and reworded the sentence a bit. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• "maintain membership in the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, who which required members"
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• In this sentence about the endowment, you said that Anderson didn't even have a fifth but earlier it was stated that there was no endowment. Did Denmark succeed in building one prior to this?
  •  Done Good catch, and yes you are correct. This has been clarified. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Is there no publication date for White Echoes?
  • All I've found is the year 1932, so I just included that in the {{sfn}} and the bibliography. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
    • That's fine, thanks. Sammielh (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
• "Much of the administration's attention was focused on the school's financial troubles for the next several years; the Board's time was occupied mainly by this and one other problem, the establishment of a college radio broadcasting station, for the next five to six years" I might re-phrase this sentence as it's a bit repetitive as written
  •  Done A bit repetitive indeed, I have reworked the sentence. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• "though the dinner was canceled after an F2 tornado struck Anderson that afternoon" I would maybe emphasize that it struck the town as when the death and injuries were reported, I intitially thought it meant on campus although the source doesn't give that level of detail
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• "the college did, however, get to collect a sum of $20,000"
  •  Done and I added {{inflation}} here as well as I felt that was good information to have. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Later life and death

• The first sentence is repetitive to the previous section, I would try to combine them; as the discussion of the dormitory is mentioned below in legacy, it might be easiest to remove the sentence about being honored by the trustees from the Career section
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• "Denmark opted to return to her hometown of Goldsboro"
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Legacy

• Commencement should be linked at first use
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• In note d, The State is not linked even though it is in note e
  •  Done switched these. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the sources as soon as possible. Comments above as well. Sammielh (talk) 22:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

@Sammielh: I have taken care of the newest comments, still have a couple things to double-check on from earlier. No rush on the source analysis. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Sammielh Just wanted to give you a reminder ping. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:50, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS So sorry, I completely forgot about this. Sammielh (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Sources & Misc.

• I've done a spot-check for the sources and the only issue I identified was for footnote 43: I believe the page range should be a bit wider, I wasn't able to find all of the information on page 57
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:47, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• Is there a reason that Newberry Herald and News isn't redlinked but Goldsboro Weekly Argus is?
  •  Done fixed. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• The source formatting of websites should be consistent -- some have the website name italicised and others don't
  • I don't think that's covered by the GAN criteria but I went back and tried to find the inconsistencies but couldn't - ref 7 isn't italicized since "Anderson University" is the publisher of that paper, which is being cited; ref 59 isn't italicized for the same reason (the letter is the thing being cited); I'm not seeing anything else that isn't italicized (though I may well be missing something). PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• They That Wait and Dr. Annie Denmark can both be linked to Internet Archive versions
  •  Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• I would be consistent with whether a location is given for the book references, I might also consider moving Grazulis 1993 to the bibliography
  •  Done Grazulis moved; as for book references missing locations, I put them if I could find them but had to leave them blank if I couldn't. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• FYI: Per our above discussion, J. Dexter Brown is identified as a trustee of the college on page 166 of Hester 1969, which might be worth adding
  •  Done added. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• The one photo is correctly licenced and I assume there are no photos of Denmark which can be added
  • I had an photo of a painting of her in the infobox but that was removed as a derivative work; I contacted the library at AU to try to get a public domain photo or copyright info on the painting but neither went anywhere so we'll have to go without a photo of her, unfortunately. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
• The copyright check came up fine

If you just come back to me on a few things above, I'm more than happy to pass this. For now, I'll place it on hold. Sammielh (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@Sammielh most everything taken care of, see comments above. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:48, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS Perfect, happy to promote! Sammielh (talk) 11:58, 26 November 2022 (UTC)