Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 77

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"Kill list"

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
My suggested wording... "President Obama gained considerable kudos for being the first modern, elected, world leader to publicly acknowledge that his country has a "kill list", and to take full responsibility for who was on it." HiLo48 (talk) 23:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC) Can you please cite your sources? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:39, 23 April 2013 (UTC) He's only being ironic with that wording. Keted6 (talk) 23:45, 23 April 2013 (UTC) Never mind, I just read his other post in the section above. Unbelievable. Keted6 (talk) 23:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC) And what, precisely, is wrong with it? HiLo48 (talk) 08:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC) HHiLo, stop it. you are in close to violating WP:POINT. You know your suggestion would be acceptable with no one, and are being snarky, what with language in it such as "gained considerable kudos" without having presented any sources stating such. Essentially, you're trolling a conversation that already does not require bating to be out of control. Stop it. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 10:56, 24 April 2013 (UTC) One could argue that HiLo48's rather silly proposal exactly mirrors the rather silly views that have come before. It is certainly no more ridiculous. The reality, of course, is that the "kill list" nonsense has no business in this biography. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:14, 24 April 2013 (UTC) Yes, I am making a point, and the only "criticism" you seem able to make is that I'm making a point. (And it's unsourced.) So, it's clearly a successful point, and not effective criticism at all. There are many points made opposing this addition that those in favour of it are simply avoiding. The sources thing is irrelevant. We don't add everything that's sourced to Wikipedia. We do include stuff that's not sourced if it's obvious to all. Excellent journals report on Hollywood romances and the resulting babies. I'm sure you would agree that such crap doesn't belong here. So, complete the discussion. Don't avoid the strong points of your opponents. HiLo48 (talk) 11:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Mulitple massacres in US

The most recent one is: http://abcnews.go.com/US/dead-man-kills-girlfriend-shooting-spree-seattle/story?id=19015078#.UXb9ZaKeNnx

I would propose to open a new section in domestic policy to list some of the massacres happened under Obama administration. For me it seems that there are too much and these are too deadly. 91.82.29.159 (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The Sandy Hook incident is mentioned at Presidency of Barack Obama#Gun control. If you would like to add more about other such incidents, perhaps that would be the best place to start. This is the BLP of Barack Obama, the person, and often only summarizes what is at the Presidency article, due to WP:WEIGHT concerns. That, and the fact that Barack Obama (the person) was not involved (as far as I can tell) in this incident, so it's not really appropriate for inclusion here at all. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 21:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

This particular incident does not belong here since the source in question does not even mention Obama which would be the bare minimum requirement for inclusion, and even then would not be anywhere neat enough to convince people that is should be listed on a biography of Obama himself.--174.93.164.125 (talk) 02:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Another day another shooting spree: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-illinois-shootings-20130424,0,7030923.story?track=rss — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.4.192 (talk) 21:04, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't really see why a separate list of mass murders is prudent. We haven't done that for other presidents, have we? Unless there was some particularly notable trend (like a 400% increase during his time in office) that generated significant media coverage—the trend, not just individual incidents—might it be appropriate. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 21:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

The second source does not mention Obama either so that means that it can't even be considered for inclusion. In other words, these separate incidents are not being tied to Obama so it is a complete non-starter. Also even if some people were trying to make a connection this fact would have to be a strong significance to Obama personally to be covered in his biography and so far there is zero evidence of that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.95.111.89 (talk) 01:51, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

FAQ

The article doesn't have a word of criticism or controversy, and going by the above discussion, that's not going to change. The closest it gets is this (which is piss-poor): Some Representatives questioned whether Obama had the constitutional authority to order military action in addition to questioning its cost, structure and aftermath. Seriously, out of the entire article, that's all there is. As such, I made this edit [1] to the FAQ page. As it's not possible to ask for less criticism/controversy (let alone much less), my edit should stay because the frequently asked questions page shouldn't ask questions that won't come up. Keted6 (talk) 21:46, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

The FAQ sums up the editors' collective opinion on the subject, and I pretty much agree with it so there's not much point repeating the argument. Regarding your specific attempt to change the FAQ, what that particular FAQ is saying is not that we should hold the line on adding more criticism, but rather that the whole question of how much or how little criticism (or negative material) the article contains is the wrong way to go about editing an encyclopedia biography. Wikidemon (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe you should add that to the FAQ if you think that's the point. The FAQ is to show frequently asked questions (fails, as nobody asks for much less criticism/controversy) and it's to try and pre-empt any arguments that will be made that are in vain, which it fails again because nobody will ask in the future (judging by the current state of affairs) for much less criticism/controversy. Keted6 (talk) 22:09, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of the merits of your specific edit, Keted, it is prudent to seek consensus on the talk page before making potentially controversial edits to an article's FAQ. Please do not make bold or pointy edits to the FAQ, as that goes against the principle of consensus building. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 22:17, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Keted - I have no knowledge of your political position, so this isn't specifically about you, but you must appreciate that a lot of requests for negative content about political figures come from political opponents, wanting to use Wikipedia as they would a political forum. Wikipedia is not the place for that and we must guard very carefully against it. Arguments about "equal" amounts of criticism can very quickly be seen as simply that sort of political game. Another issue is that this article is about Obama, the person. It's his biography here on Wikipedia. Issues relating to his Presidency belong at Presidency of Barack Obama. HiLo48 (talk) 08:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is asking for an equal amount of criticism to praise, just that some criticism be included, as there is a lot to choose from. There's not as much as some presidents, but there's more than others. Following on from that, I have yet to see an article about a president that has nothing negative in it. This article appears to be unique in that regard. Anyway... until there is sufficient criticism/controversy in the article (at the moment there's none, to reiterate) the FAQ shouldn't make out as if people ask for less criticism/controversy when that doesn't and cannot happen. Keted6 (talk) 16:39, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

we're not going to let a 'criticism or controversy' section appear here. period. get over it. cheers. Cramyourspam (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not asking for that. Keted6 (talk) 17:19, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Tweet hack incident

Should be mentioned: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/apr/23/ap-tweet-hack-wall-street-freefall — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.136.62 (talk) 12:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes perhaps, but not here. - Wikidemon (talk) 14:39, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

It may not be worth mentioning at all. It isn't all that significant to cybersecurity in general, and its effect on the stock market was very short lived. Not biographically significant to Obama, not significant to his presidency seeing as the impact was essentially net zero after a very short time, etc. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 15:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Drones

I propose we include neutral and proportionate mention of the drone attacks, sourced to the many reliable sources previously proposed. I also propose we update the Afghanistan section, work which has been outstanding for nine months now. --John (talk) 09:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, what's your idea of "neutral and proportionate mention of the drone attacks"? To me, they're just another military tool. The USA, as the world's single superpower, has more military tools of different types than anybody else. We all know that. We don't mention any other military devices here. What's special about the drones? (I ask that question seriously.)

The same applies to the Afghanistan stuff. What wording would you propose? HiLo48 (talk) 11:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I think this stuff needs to be worked out at Presidency of Barack Obama first, and then (and only then) summarized here in accordance with summary style and in the appropriate weight. This approach is the only way to ensure such a complex topic is given the attention is deserves. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

We can do both, but there really is not that much mainstream coverage of the war in Afghanistan or drone attacks, relatively speaking. So any additions should be succinct and neutral, in proportion to the rest of the article mentions. Using drones to target enemies in a war is a relatively new technology, that are designed to lower casualties for American soldiers and civilians. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 14:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Part of the problem here is that people are conflating the "kill list" narrative with the use of drones, even though the two are actually separate issues. That is why all the silly arm-waving and demands need to give way to proper discussion about the issues in the appropriate forum. I'm going to oppose any inclusion of this stuff until I see it in Presidency of Barack Obama, because if it isn't notable enough to include in an article on Obama's presidency, it certainly isn't going to be notable enough to include in an article on Obama's biography. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Scjessey, you are incorrect to oppose edits to this article based on what is missing from other articles. your and others editors opinions/voting of a facts significance is irrelevant, the frequency of RS is the determining factor. much of the material in this article appears in print far less: Crain's Chicago Business to name Obama to its 1993 list of "40 under Forty" powers to be. Obama's kill list (yes kill list and Obama are always connected in the RS) has major media coverage in several countries. as to this not being an important part of someone's life, balderdash, nothing could be more germane than PERSONALLY deciding to take the life of another person. Darkstar1st (talk) 15:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I think we're beginning to see the crux of the problem...or, your problem, that is, in that you place an inordinate value on "the [decision] to take the life of another person". The President is the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces, i.e. those people who serve our country valiantly, trained to take a person's life if the situation arises. We still have this little thing called a War on Terror that is ongoing y'know, and in a war, people die. There's really nothing untowards about any of this, the only new wrinkle is president himself issuing the final "go order" rather than it being left to one of the Joint Chiefs or a general in the field. It's just a matter of degrees, and all in all not terribly significant other than to those that thought electing a Democratic president meant we were going to shoot the bad guys with rainbows and puppy kisses. Tarc (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

That's all irrelevant though. The Kill List has received sufficient coverage to warrant inclusion. Whether or not the large amount of media attention on the Kill List is justified shouldn't make a difference to it's inclusion. Keted6 (talk) 16:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I believe the point sailed over your head. The point is that it is a routine aspect of the war on terror. Just being "in the news" is not in itself a sufficient criteria to warrant inclusion, especially to a personal biography article. There has always been someone to make the call to carry out a kill-not-capture op, there's nothing especially remarkable about the president wanting it to trickle up to him. It may be relevant to the presidency, i.e. something to cover at the foreign policy or war section of Presidency of Barack Obama, but the overall point here is it isn't directly relevant to Obama himself. Tarc (talk) 16:53, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how much coverage there is if it isn't germane. This is the biography, and the "kill list" and/or drone program aren't biographically significant at this time. There's massive coverage all over the internet about the Puppy Bowl, but that isn't germane to Obama's biography either. And yes, I know that is a ridiculous example, but I'm tired of all the bullshit. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, how does your dismissal of this as just "routine" not count at original research? We should not be deciding what is and is not remarkable when the rest of the world, as shown through RS, say it is remarkable. It'd be one thing if this was a short lived or passing controversy with little coverage, but it is not. What you are saying, if properly sourced, could be added as part of a legal argument in defense of the president's actions, but it does not dismiss that the world IS treating this as not routine, and we here at Wikipedia do not get to define the world. That you believe this not to be far out of normal presidential power is your opinion, but the rest of the world, as shown by RS, is treating this as something new and a "big deal." Scjessey, what is your standard for biographically significant? Your puppy bowl example, frankly it borders on insulting to bring it up. That coverage does not have anything to do with the president and is not an action of the president. Please treat other editors with respect and realism if you wish to be in return. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I did say it was a "ridiculous example". Something that is "biographically significant" speaks for itself. Has it had a significant effect on Obama's life, or is it a key component of Obama's life story? No? Then it doesn't belong. A possible loophole, however, is if it becomes very significant to Obama's presidency. In which case, it will become a big part of Presidency of Barack Obama and it will form part of the summary of that article that we have in this one. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with OuroborosCobra. I think we are seeing fatigue among some of the defenders of the poor state of the article. Hint: it's ok to take a break and get on with something else if you're tired of preventing improvement here. It must be exhausting, all that stonewalling. It's a wiki, and other people have the right to edit it. Your OR, and your snippy comments and bad faith, aren't helpful or desired here. --John (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

That all sounds very impressive, John, but I've become familiar enough with your modus operandi to simply ignore it. The article does indeed need improvement, but the proposal here is the exact opposite of improvement. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

No, that's not ignoring it. Ignoring it, is actually not posting when you have nothing whatsoever to add. Try it, you'll find it rather refreshing. --John (talk) 17:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh, the delicious irony of your last comment! -- Scjessey (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Common sense isn't original research, I'm afraid. Every word, utterance, and gesture of the US President is covered by a reliable source day in and day out. Pardoning the presidential turkey, what he buys the First Lady for Christmas, and what is on the White House Easter Dinner table are all found in many reliable sources. Having the buck stop one notch up the ladder regarding kill lists is just...shrug. Tarc (talk) 18:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

It's not common sense, that's why it's original research. To say that the coverage the Kill List receives is just above that of food on the Easter Dinner table is ridiculous. It receives much more coverage than some of what is already in the article, such as On September 30, 2009, the Obama administration proposed new regulations on power plants, factories and oil refineries in an attempt to limit greenhouse gas emissions and to curb global warming. Keted6 (talk) 19:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

@Tarc: That's true, to some extent. It is an editorial decision. However, especially if we have pretensions to keeping this an FA, we cannot ignore the widespread and significant coverage of the drone attacks (note I am not bringing up "kill lists" here, that was your suggestion). This coverage goes right across the political spectrum and is long term. My other proposal was to update the Afghanistan section; when I introduced the "update" tag in July 2012 I must admit I did not foresee it still being there nine months (and one election) later. What's that about? --John (talk) 19:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

There's a difference between relevance to the president personally and relevance to the office of the presidency, though. Presidency of Barack Obama#Overseas Contingency Operation is looking pretty sparse at the moment, and could probably benefit from some expanded drone coverage. Tarc (talk) 20:08, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, reviewing a list of names and deciding which die is absolutely relevant to any man. the argument that every leader does the same but in secret is irrelevant, Obama is the only blp on wp with a kill list. that alone should merit inclusion. Darkstar1st (talk) 21:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

It's your opinion, and that carries no special weight here. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

prove me wrong, which other blp has a kill list? Darkstar1st (talk) 21:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

@John: Can you please suggest some text? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Really, Darkstar? The only BLP on WP with a kill list? You really believe that? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 21:46, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

afg plz and yes i do, which other blp on wp has a kill list? Darkstar1st (talk) 21:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, though unless you have evidence to back up your suggestion that no other living person on Wikipedia has or ever had a kill list a personal opinion of that sort would likely not be given much if any consideration.--174.93.164.125 (talk) 22:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

no, it is a fact. search kill list in tools, nothing on wp will match that term, unlike several mainstream publishers on several continents who specifically mention Obama's kill list. Darkstar1st (talk) 22:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear, we started with a polite request for discussion about what we can write about drones and Afghanistan, and we've ended up at the "kill list", yet again. There's a huge problem on display there. Crappy discussion behaviour, sidetracking yet again, plus some people obsessed with the "kill list". So, if we must discuss that, my perspective is that every major power throughout history would have had a kill list. Reading a bit of history makes that obvious. Those heads rolling around on the floor in the Tower of London and around the Guillotine in Paris come immediately to mind, and that's just my European historical bias on display while eating my breakfast. There will be hundreds more examples in history. The big development surrounding the USA's list in Obama's time is that it's become more public, and the President, the popularly elected guy, has taken responsibility for it rather than leaving it in the hands of unknown, unelected military commanders. This is all surely a very good development. I can't see how it helps those who want more negatives about Obama in the article at all. HiLo48 (talk) 22:23, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The more significant and relevant revolve around: (1) drone warfare, or drones in general, (2) killings by a government that take place outside of a context of either a war or judicial review (extrajudicial or so-called "targeted" killings) — whether or not there is a list, that's a side issue, and (3) the context of international relations and mideast / terrorism policy. All of that is highly notable, and each of these has its own series of articles where most of the substance of the issue resides on Wikipedia. The question is whether to include an anchor point here, a sentence or two and a link to the main article. Or if not here, how far up the tree of presidential articles Wikilink and have the discussion in that article's space. I'm not convinced that the significance X relevance is high enough given the current state of the sources. I didn't say I'm convinced it doesn't belong either, just that I'm hoping for some yardstick that's more objective than each person's personal analysis of how big of an issue it is. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:21, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

It's probably best to start with a survey of the sources. I know this has been discussed a bunch of times here. Can we pull together what sources discuss this in specific relation to Obama? I know from my own reading that both The Guardian and The Economist have discussed it in detail. Once we see the range of sources and how they cover it we can discuss wording. --John (talk) 05:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it's probably best to not jump the gun on this, and to first try to agree on whether any mention of the drones is due content at all in THIS article. It must be obvious to you that, no matter what you think on that matter, many disagree with you. Leaping ahead as you are trying to do is simply being confrontational. (And political?) HiLo48 (talk) 22:04, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Leaping ahead? Ah yes, you're right. It's only been nine months. Let's leave it another year or two, would you say? Are you on the same calendar as the rest of us? We can't continue to retard the development of this article with good sources, and also keep the FA star. Which would you prefer? --John (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

We'd prefer that you followed WP:CONSENSUS and WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV. Also, we'd prefer you would accept the totally obvious fact that the drone program is not biographically significant (at least not yet). At this point, it is getting very hard to assume good faith, since you just keep repeating the same point. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Please try. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Break - Drones Cont.

It seems clear to me that UCAVs are biographically notable to Barack Obama just like the Gatling gun was biographically notable to Abraham Lincoln. That is, almost notable enough for a one-line mention in the bio (but not quite; notice the Gatling gun is never even mentioned in the Lincoln bio). MUCH more notable to War on Terror (where it gets four brief mentions). That seems about right. It's an advance in military technology, and like every advance in military technology that came before it, it carries some political controversy, but that doesn't make it biographically notable to the President. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:04, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree completely; however, it is not inconceivable that this may change in the future. At the other end of the scale, for example, an "advance in military technology" was quite biographically significant for Harry S. Truman. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

True, and I am open to that possibility in the future, but as things stand now, the most significant military developments that Mr. Obama has had a hand in were carried out face-to-face, not by drone strikes. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 16:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The comparison with Harry S. Truman is quite a compelling one. That's a decent Featured Article on a fairly modern and fairly controversial US President; it's well-written and reasonably well-balanced. There's (rightly in my view) a whole section on his decision to use nuclear weapons on Japan; there's also (rather unusually on an FA) a Criticism and controversies section near the end. I can't see a long rambling section on which American football and baseball teams the president supported; maybe the writers and reviewers reckoned this would be worthless fluff on a serious encyclopaedia article about a US president. I'd be interested to see what the defenders of the current article on Obama would say in evaluating the comparative quality of the two articles. Before commenting, you'll have to read the two articles from start to finish, as I have just done. Never mind the FA criteria; this article is miles away from meeting them and won't any time soon. Just compare basic writing (Obama article riddled with basic faults and errors), NPOV (an awful lot of glowing, but somewhat vacuous, praise of Obama, yet suspiciously little criticism) and ask yourself if this article is all it can be. Take your time. It's been embarrassingly awful for several years now, so a few more days or weeks won't hurt. --John (talk) 16:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I cannot believe that any editor that would compare the use of Drones to using a nuclear weapon could write a neutral section on the use of drones by the US military at the direction of the President. In my view, editors here have had the chance to include a short mention in the Prez article, and perhaps even here, but the absolute over-reach by a few are preventing the very inclusion they seek. If editors who seem neutral on this issue (Wikidemon and Wilhelm perhaps), wish to get together and include a section in the Prez article, and mention it here, I would be happy to support or even help. Other than that, I can't see a way forward with editors using such extreme examples. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 18:31, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

DD2K, dial it back. The comparison to nuclear weapons use was not brought up by editors in favor of include drones in this article, as you are attacking them. It was brought up first by Scjessey, who opposes including content on drones in this article. If you are going to attack people for such a comparison and say they cannot edit with neutrality... then who are you attacking? The people who want change in the article did not bring up the nuclear weapon comparison. Nor was Scjessey's bringing it up a comparison of drones to nuclear weapons as a scale of the weapon, but rather whether the use of the weapon (either as a new technology, new tactic, etc.) was biographically significant. It was biographically significant to Truman. Similarly, the use of drones could be significant, as their use as a choice of the president has been in a manner that is significant beyond "new military technology." Gatling guns, while changing the battlefield, were not used in a direct presidential-approval manner under Lincoln, and were used in the same battlefields and against the same targets as any other weapon before then. Drones have differences, and these are in the direct presidential-approval uses. They are being used to wage conflict in violation of another nation's sovereignty when we are neither in conflict with that nation or having congressional approval to do so. The closest comparison I can come up with is the campaign in Laos, which is mentioned in both our Kennedy and Nixon articles. It can be argued they are also being used against US citizens, without trial or standard due process, outside of a battlefield environment. Drones may represent just another in a long line of military technology advancements, but their specific use is unique and different. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 18:44, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Dial it back? Whether that's a pun or not, I don't know. But I don't need to dial anything back. If you wish to elevate the discussion, you might want to either make a proposal here or at the Prez article. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 19:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC) (Refractored)Dave Dial (talk) 19:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Dial it back to the point that you are not attacking people for comparing drones warfare to nuclear warfare when the people you are attacking aren't the ones who brought nuclear weapons into this. They didn't make that comparison. As for making a proposal, I've got to ask, to what end? It's been made exceedingly clear, especially by editors like Scjessey, that no mention of drones will be acceptable in any form. Unless they are willing to say that making a proposal is the least bit worth the effort, why should we? Scjessey, are you and other editors willing to consider a proposal regarding drone warfare? Otherwise, we are back to convincing them that mention is at all warranted to begin with. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 22:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

At this point, the use of drones has become politically significant enough to perhaps warrant a mention at Presidency of Barack Obama, but it has most certainly not become biographically significant. It is possible that will change in the future. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. And what do you base that on, other than your own opinion? Any thoughts on the points I made in my 16:55 post? --John (talk) 05:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I have one thought on your 16.55 post. It's absolutely stupid to compare drones with nuclear bombs on Japan. The difference in scale and impact is immense. HiLo48 (talk) 08:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm starting to wish I'd never mentioned Truman. I brought it up as an example of a biographically significant use of weapons by a president. While there has been extensive exposition in reliable sources about the drone program, I've not seen any that would characterize their use as a defining factor of Obama's presidency, let alone of his life. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Are his sporting affiliations a "defining factor"? I wasn't aware that was a criterion for inclusion here. --John (talk) 16:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

i disagree the technology is the issue here Scjessey. the similarity being made here is both have knowingly targeted sites with a high probability of civilian casualties, often a defining characteristic of a war crime. there currently are no blp on wp close to such a distinction not mentioned. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:38, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

@John - His sporting affiliations are biographically significant, John. How is it possible that you don't know what a biography is?

@Darkstar1st - There is no similarity whatsoever. The dropping of the atomic bomb changed the whole planet forever. Taking out a few terrorists (regardless of how it is done) is trivial by comparison. Trying to push this narrative is idiotic. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:15, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, thanks once again for sharing your opinion, Scjessey. Have you ever read a history book? Have you ever edited any other featured articles on biographical subjects? Is it possible you don't know what a Featured Article looks like? If you are honestly, without hyperbole, claiming that Obama's likings for a particular American football team and a particular baseball team are "biographically significant", and his use of drones are not, then it really is time you went out and edited some other articles and gained more experience. This would help us to take your opinions even more seriously. --John (talk) 18:31, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

You are completely wrong about this, John. It seems you cannot tell the difference between biographical significance and political significance. The use of drones isn't even unique to Obama, for goodness sake. This article definitely needs some work to retain its featured status (because of outdated material), but the stuff you are calling for is not appropriate. If you go and read reliable sources, you will find that most Obama biographies in newspapers/magazines talk about exactly the sort of stuff we have in this article, right down to the White Sox and left-handedness crap. None of them mention drones. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. The fact that even you as a defender of the sports material refer to it as "crap" doesn't inspire me with confidence. Here's two related questions; why do you think the Truman article does not contain such material; do you think it is a lack that needs to be addressed? Do you think history books written in 20 or in 50 years will follow your priorities? This last is what I meant by recentism. --John (talk) 05:28, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not use the term "crap" to belittle the content. I regularly use the word instead of "stuff" (example: "I need to clear all the crap away in the living room because we have guests coming."). I haven't read the Truman article, so I don't know what is or is not missing from there. Nor do I care, since what goes on in one article has no bearing on what goes on in another and I have no interest in the Truman article at all. I am not an American, and I am not really interested in American history. With respect to "history books", I would say that typical biographies about historical figures will have all sorts of information, from the significant to the trivial. If something isn't really relevant to the life story of the subject, it is unlikely to feature unless it is tangentially interesting. President Obama did not start the drone program. President Obama does not personally oversee the drone program. President Obama isn't a notable figure in the drone program. The media does not refer to the drone program as an Obama thing that will have any meaningful impact on his presidency, let alone his life. So it should be clear to anyone that the drone program (at this point) has absolutely zero biographical relevance. This is in stark contrast to Truman and the dropping of the bomb, which was a life-defining moment. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

← OuroborosCobra, I think Dave Dial was clearly saying that he doesn't see a section on drones as belonging here in the biography of the life and career of Barack Obama - or at least not at this time, as Scjessey has said more than once - the proposal Dave was suggesting is for something to perhaps be added to the Presidency of Barack Obama article where it would more appropriately belong, with a possible reference here. No one has said here, as far as I've noticed, that drones cannot be mentioned in any Obama related article, just that the biography is not the place, now, for more than a reference. It is not at all clear that if there had been a Wikipedia bio of Harry Truman during his presidency that the bio would have talked about his use of nuclear weapons on Japan - maybe so, maybe not - but surely now, with the perspective of history, it is clear that it is a significant part of Truman's personal legacy, so it belongs in his bio. Would we have seen that then? Not clear. So as has been said repeatedly, at this point it seems that if drones are to be discussed, the article about his terms in office is where it should be, and perhaps referred to here. But that might change with the passing of time, and I am not saying it will take 70 years. Tvoz/talk 05:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Tvoz, that's actually a very good point. Recentism is a very good partial explanation of how the article has evolved to look like this, but it is not and should not be used as a justification for keeping the article this way. --John (talk) 05:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

That's not quite what I was saying. Tvoz/talk 06:26, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it looks to me like recentism is driving the impetus to include drone content here, rather than driving the view that it is irrelevant to the bio. Stuffing the article with whatever is currently in the news (or conservative blogs, or whatever form of infotainment amuses you) would be a good example of recentism. Allowing time for history to make these judgments before adding to the bio would be a way of avoiding recentism. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 16:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Stuffing the article with whatever is currently in the news (or conservative blogs, or whatever form of infotainment amuses you) I'm not aware that anyone has suggested that. What are you responding to here, or is this a red herring? If it's the latter, feel free to apologise and respond in an adult way to suggestions that have actually been made. --John (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

There was a little exaggeration in my metaphor, but not every metaphor is a red herring. I think you're getting a little hypertensive about this whole thing, John. There are no angry mastodons here, so please, take a break, relax, and come back to it with a spirit of collaboration. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:36, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, thanks for acknowledging you were not serious. It's always a risk when you fool around and throw out "exaggerations in [your] metaphor" when someone else is being serious. I was being serious. --John (talk) 18:31, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Why is it starting to seem like you are trying to pick a fight with me? I am perfectly serious about improving Wikipedia's articles, including this one. Of course when I say things like "whatever form of infotainment amuses you," I'm not being 100% serious in my rhetoric, as there is a little jest to that, isn't there? It's more a comment on the state of the news media than a jab at anyone here, though. No, John, the biggest difference I see between you and me is that I'm being calm and rational while you're stomping around demanding apologies from editors who have offered you no offense. That's not being serious, that's being rude. If you'd like to get back to the topic of where and how coverage of UCAVs/drones should be included in Wikipedia, then please, let's get back to that topic. The ACLU is decrying the (alleged) illegality of the CIA and DOD's "drone program", but they are not (to the best of my knowledge) implicating Barack Obama personally, just the CIA and SecDef. Now what were you saying about why the biography of Barack Obama is the best place on Wikipedia to talk about drones? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 01:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

It baffles me why people are always coming here to put stuff into this biography that belong in Presidency of Barack Obama. RNealK (talk) 01:12, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not interested in what you think are the differences between you and me. I am not interested in your feelings or in what you think is rude. I am here to discuss improving the article. If you wish to join the discussion it will be a lot more productive if you refrain from making rhetorical points that you turn out not to believe in. Feel free to get on with making points that are not rhetorical. The other stuff I will ignore, except that it makes me marginally less likely to take your points seriously. --John (talk) 05:28, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a collaborative project, John, so I suggest you either review WP:CIVIL or take a break from editing. And yes, I mean that with complete seriousness. When I said rhetoric I meant rhetoric, so you see, it would be literally impossible for anyone to "make points that are not rhetorical" because the whole process of coming here to use the talk page is a form of rhetoric. And where did I say I don't believe in something I had previously said? Please, point that out to me. You seem more interested in arguing with me than in improving Wikipedia. In my most recent post I made a valid argument against the inclusion of drones in this article, and you never even acknowledged it. Why should I take you seriously? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 13:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Um, wow, John. Way to be collaborative. RNealK (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources for the proposed mention of drones in this article

• Guardian (added by John)

This source talks about the Obama administration, and the closest it comes to dealing with Barack Obama (the person) is the passage: Bellinger...said he believed [use of drones] had increased since because President Obama was unwilling to deal with the consequences of jailing suspected al-Qaida members. So I see very weak support for inclusion in the BLP article, stronger support for inclusion in the Presidency article. But go on. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:03, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Guardian (added by John)

This is from an opinion column, so weak as a reliable source, though he does at least give his sources and give a lot of direct quotes, so it's fairly strong as an opinion piece. Still, he talks more about Obama administration policy than Barack Obama the person. Remember, there are more people than Barack Obama involved in forming administration policy. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• BBC (added by John)

Are you even being serious with this one? This article mentions Barack Obama exactly once: "However, the number of drone attacks there has dramatically increased under President Barack Obama," and the mention is not central to the article. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:09, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Economist (added by John)

This article, from the second paragraph, offers much better support of your position [than the others] because it does at least talk about Barack Obama (the person) and his personal approach to making these decisions as president (in comparison to his predecessor). So here's a source worth talking about. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• Economist --John (talk) 15:01, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

This article is mostly about Grubbs and his animated graph, and by virtue of the topic of the graph mentions that drone strikes have increased under the Obama administration. Again, at best it is weak support for inclusion at the Presidency article (not the BLP). Even if we accept that the graph itself is a reliable source, it does not tie "drones" to "Barack Obama the person" in a biographical way. At best, the Obama administration. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:23, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• ACLU (added by Wilhelm)

The ACLU is pointing fingers at DOD, DOJ, State and CIA, but not at the White House, much less the President personally. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• PBS (added by Wilhelm)

This PBS article comes a little closer by tying the drone program to the Obama administration and the Bush administration, but just those two groups involve a lot of people (not just Barack Obama), though they did mention comments Obama made on The Daily Show. But prepare for disappointment before watching the video, because he wasn't actually talking about drones there, he was talking about closing Guantanamo. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 15:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• New York Times (added by Wilhelm)

NYT links drones to the CIA, not to Obama, who is barely mentioned in passing. You wanted to know what reliable sources are saying about drones. They're mostly talking about CIA and DOD, with mentions that the program was expanded under the Obama administration (which is hardly surprising since it only started when his immediate predecessor was in office). Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• New York Times (added by Wilhelm)

Here is a NYT article on the flap over domestic surveillance drones with emphasis on their use by private entities and local government (e.g. a sheriff's office). Obama is never mentioned. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• [2] ...Obama's drone war...President Obama's increasing reliance on armed drones to kill terrorist suspects has sparked an international outcry and a fierce domestic debate about the government's assertion of its right to kill in secret BLP are required to mention notable controversy, how many more RS do we need to establish this fact? the article does not read, the USA Drone War or CIA Drone War, or White House Drone War, or Office of the President Drone War, it specifically mentions the man. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:57, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

  Still about the president's policy, not about the man. Frankly, it's incredible that you are unable to see the distinction. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

It's incredible that you keep banging on about that. Nearly the entire article is about his presidency and policies and this is no different. 120.192.185.135 (talk) 16:33, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

That's a good argument for condensing and limiting coverage of the presidency here, not expanding it. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:38, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see that happen, actually. Tvoz/talk 19:27, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not a good argument for limiting it nor should that happen. This isn't the article for Theodore Roosevelt. Barack Obama doesn't have anything else approaching the significance of his presidency. 120.192.185.135 (talk) 20:56, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not how biographies work in an encyclopedia or anywhere else. If you have the fortitude to read, say, The Years of Lyndon Johnson the author doesn't get around to the Presidency until the fifth volume. A biography is a telling of somebody's life. We have other articles about the presidency and sub-topics from there, all linked together. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

regardless of what job one may hold, whenever a war is named after you, it should be included in the blp. Darkstar1st (talk) 17:48, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

If you actually read the entire article, you quickly see that the "Obama's war" phrase is hyperbole to get readers. The article is a blog piece about the people who run the drones, not Obama himself. Nice try though. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:10, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

3-D printing gets Obama’s approval

My suggestion for the article: "Obama predicted that 3-D printing would bring manufacturing jobs flooding back into the United States. The 3-D printing centre in Cincinnati mentioned in Obama’s speech was partly bankrolled by the U.S. Department of Defense, which views the technology as a way to make highly specialized parts for military hardware. While Obama’s manufacturing revolution may turn out to be smaller than his speech implied, it’s possible that 3-D printing will launch an irreversible revolution in gun fabrication – which could also render moot the president’s attempts to legislate stricter gun controls." ref. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/3-d-printing-gets-obamas-approval-but-does-he-know-it-makes-guns/article8639920/

The current actuality of this is the article: Ban sought for guns made with 3-D printers after man successfully test fires one (ref. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ban-sought-in-us-for-firearms-made-with-3d-printers/article11732870/ ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.168.56 (talk) 21:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Although 3D printing is a very important technological development, and the 3D printing of sidearms by private citizens (which hasn't happened yet, beyond a crude novelty) is perhaps an encyclopedic subject in its own right, there's no indication that the issue is significant enough, or closely related to the life and times of Obama, to include in this article. In other words, this stuff is best added to articles much more specific to those topics. In doing so, you'll have to watch WP:POV, original analysis, and use of unreliable sources like the speculation and conjecture in the Globe and Mail article. The speculation that there is conflict between Obama's supporting a new technology, and the possibility that the technology can be used to make weapons is, in fact, silly. By that logic Obama should not support the computer software industry because software, too, is part of gun manufacture. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

While I'm always interested in new technological developments, and this is a fascinating one, the day I would personally trust a firearm created by my home printer is a long way off. There's a fair bit of hype happening here. HiLo48 (talk) 03:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Your history/definition of the Barack Obama page is inaccurate...

To Whom It Concerns;

I don't know who's responsible for the content on this page about Barack Obama, but it is inaccurate and misleading.

On the page, you claim that Obama is the first African American president. It should read that he's the first bi-racial president! His father was black, but his mother was white! There is no scientific evidence that the black gene is dominant. By listing him as the first African American president, you are doing a disservice to any future person, who is full African American and becomes president! Also, in my opinion, you yourselves come off as being racist for thinking the black gene is dominant by listing him as the first African American president, when he clearly is not.

Thank You;

Wayne White — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.82.66 (talk) 19:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Please see FAQ#Q2 as well as the archived discussions on this topic. Also note that term African American refers primarily to ancestry rather than race.--JayJasper (talk) 19:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

"White House to brew house"?

Only The Guardian blog: [3], but is this in any way notable? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it belongs on a biography of Obama.--174.95.111.89 (talk) 02:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Personally, and like the blogger, I think it's great, but it really is trivia. HiLo48 (talk) 02:45, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

(beer and sandwiches have proved to be quite important for some past political leaders...) Martinevans123 (talk) 17:40, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I think we'll wait until it proves to be important for this one. Tvoz/talk 20:02, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

...and we thought UK politics was silly... [4] Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Gotta love The Onion. Tvoz/talk 20:17, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

what?! satire!? I had no idea. lol. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

IRS, AP phone tap, Benghazi

Mainstream media is now covering the IRS targeting of groups under the label "Tea Party," as well as the revisions made to the Benghazi talking points and the U.S. DOJ's tapping of AP phone records. They now appear to be treating these as scandals. Is there a reason why there is no mention of any of these scandals in the Obama article? I am assuming it's due to the fact that these events have not yet unfolded to their entirety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tejanochica (talk • contribs) 22:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

There are several reasons why these things are not covered in this article, but the main reason would be that they have nothing whatsoever to do with Barack Obama. The IRS and the Justice Department are independent branches of government, and only right wing fringe crazies think Benghazi is a "scandal". -- Scjessey (talk) 22:35, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? You can't even see through your own bias. Is this a joke? "Only right wing fringe crazies think Benghazi is a "scandal." The president has "nothing to do with any of it" are you living in the twilight zone? Are you a real person? Do you have a brain? This is pure ignorance and propaganda. You as an editor should be nowhere near this article. You are disgusting. Benghazi - a stand down order while Obama and co where watching two navy seals defend an entire embassy from a large group of attackers. Obama and co denied support and maintained a stand down order for 8 hours. Do I need to cite the sky being blue? Also the IRS, Benghazi, Birther, etc there is tons left out. I also find it ironic how this article has the "Featured tag" while I quickly searched George W. Bush and even Albert Einstein all without such accords. You can't sit here and tell me these scandals do not exist. What happens when he is impeached, we will just leave that out as "right wing heresay." 68.50.119.13 (talk) 20:40, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The reason I asked was because the scandals occurred under Obama's administration and are therefore related to him, and I was kind of wanting to see a comprehensive summary of all that happened. Wikipedia is usually good for that. I would also politely suggest that you refrain from name-calling; it's not really conducive to a nonpartisan atmosphere and it will only encourage suspicions that Wikipedia doesn't actually adhere to its NPOV policy that much. Tejanochica (talk) 20:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree with Scjessey, no one has shown this has anything to do with Obama. Do you have any evidence you would care to share that links this to Obama? Transcendence (talk) 08:16, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, did not see this comment earlier. More or less what I said above. The events occurred under his administration, many officials from his administration were involved in them, and it would be nice to see a comprehensive summary of these events on a more reliable site than DailyKos or Breitbart. I am a bit unsure as to why one would think these events are unrelated to him; that would be like saying the response to Hurricane Katrina and the Iraq War was Congress's fault rather than Bush's.

I figure that it would probably be a good idea to wait a few days until it blows over or someone in the House introduces an impeachment resolution.Ericl (talk) 14:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

find some reliable sources (note: glenn beck is not a reliable source) showing that obama actually organized any of this, and maybe there'll be a reason to include some of that. so far though, all smoke and no fire --and nothing connecting anything to potus. Cramyourspam (talk) 20:26, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Heres a Washington Post article reporting "everything comes from the top," regarding the IRS scandal. I am prepared for further logical fallacies. You are welcome. 68.50.119.13 (talk) 02:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Not worth the time to follow the link, it does not report that. - Wikidemon (talk) 09:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I wish I could be surprised at the classic "find some reliable sources" statement from lunatic editors. Listen bud, you do not get to decide history, there are far more important encyclopedias who dominate Wikipedia and actually show the facts. You just play both sides and claim "whatever not reliable" etc. He is the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Obviously he is implicit with any and all scandals. IT IS HIS GOVERNMENT. Whether he knew or did not know, he is in trouble for knowing and he is in trouble for not knowing and taking action. It is a lose lose regardless of the side you take. It is his responsibility to know and take action. 68.50.119.13 (talk) 20:48, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

There is a reason there is 77+ archives. This presidency is riddled with controversy.68.50.119.13 (talk) 20:51, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing. And the so-called "controversy" is actually a GOP-created fauxtroversy designed to score political points. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:07, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Even the IRS scandal? Charlie Rangel, a New York Democrat, was ripping into the Acting IRS Commissioner. It is not only Republicans or Conservatives that are upset about this. SMP0328. (talk) 21:12, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

(to the IP above) gee, just what 'far more important encyclopedias who dominate Wikipedia' are those? got a link? if they are so important and dominant, why waste your time trying to add right-wing spin to insignificant wikipedia? (to Ericl above) impeachment resolution? really? not only will that never happen, but also if it somehow did happen, the unfortunate resolution sponsor would go down in news-media-flames as the person trying to impeach the nation's first-ever black president. no one will *ever* seriously move to oust the president. Cramyourspam (talk) 21:09, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

No need to get so worked up. And again, I'd like to ask that you refrain from using loaded terms like "right-wing spin." It's not very conducive to creating as nonpartisan an environment as possible. I was simply hoping to see a comprehensive NPOV summary of the scandals going on under Obama's administration. For example, on Reagan's page I have access to Iran-Contra, on Clinton's information about Whitewater and Travelgate, and on Bush's, the Dan Rather scandal, Hurricane Katrina, WMDs, and some about the faith-based initiatives. I'm not sure why it would be considered right-wing spin to simply discuss/summarize similar scandals that have occurred under Obama's administration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tejanochica (talk • contribs) 00:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

There's no "scandal" at the IRS. Faced with an enormous increase in applications, a few people at the IRS tried to come up with a way to sort through those applications more efficiently. Unfortunately, their approach was flawed and resulted in right wing groups being targeted more than left wing groups. Steps were taken to resolve the issue, and that's all there is to it. But because of the lopsided nature of the IRS actions, we must now have the grandstanding, along with generous helpings of mock outrage, by politicians on both sides of the aisle. It's a dog and pony show that has nothing whatsoever to do with Obama or his administration. None of these "fauxtroversies" are directly linked to the Obama administration, so even if they did rise to the level of "scandal" they cannot be compared to Iran-Contra, WMDs, etc. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:25, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

THere's no scandal? What? OK, Scjessey, I can see you making arguments against inclusion, such as recentism or dubious links to Obama himself, but to just declare that there is no scandal? What? You are not the arbiter of such things. It is being extremely widely reported as a scandal. You cannot just declare it otherwise. YOu do not control reality or reliable sourcing. See Wikipedia:Truth and its various linked essays. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 13:39, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Republicans are calling it a scandal, and certain political media outlets are repeating the Republican rhetoric, but it is clearly not a scandal by any stretch of the imagination. At best, it's a perversion of the word "scandal". Certainly there is no hint of any scandal connected with Barack Obama or his administration, and that is all that matters when it comes to this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I think not mentioning these scandals is making this a biased article, when it should be neutral. These scandals are relevant to Obama, and should be included. Just like every other president with scandals have the incidents on their articles as well. Teresa44 (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

They are not relevant to Obama at all. That's a fantasy. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

While I agree 100% that both Benghazi and the IRS are right-wing manufactured "controversies". At least when it comes to having anything to do with Obama or his Administration. Anything linking Obama to some controversy regarding those two events is pure fantasy and not backed up by the facts or reliable sources. But the AP emails may be a different story. I believe the facts and the reliable sources(thus far) make it an administration policy connection. Whether it was right or wrong is up to others to decide. I think in the end, something about that particular issue will end up being in the Presidency article, and perhaps here too. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 15:47, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Let me just add that when I refer to the AP emails, I am talking about the policy, not a "scandal". The policy to aggressively pursue leaks, especially when they endanger military or overt CIA operations, is one that aggravates the left. And now much of the DC press are ....aggravated. Still, there is no real scandal there. As the Washington Post's Ezra Klein puts it, the accusations are falling apart. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 16:16, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Too early to tell but this could be a defining moment in something, even if we don't know that that something is. The press as usual is covering the presidency as a horse race, not as history or as an exercise in governance, and what they are saying is that the ball is in play, the Republicans are using these three incidents to try to stall the President's momentum and the President is fighting back. That alone could be a big deal but it's too early to know where this will go. None of these issues is on the top shelf of things that affect America but they could be part of a sea change, a moment when the parties switch polarity again with Democrats in favor of authority, law and order, military strength and intervention, etc., and Republicans backing isolationism, civil liberties, and so on. Could just be a blip. Others are reporting Benghazi as a preemptive strike against Hillary Clinton should she run for presidency. I'd check back in a week or two and if it's still going on, perhaps consider adding a mention that this phase of the presidency was mired in a political dispute, though wording that could be tricky. It would be interesting to see how the presidency of article, where this is more directly relevant, treats it. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

As usual, the media and (most of) Wikipedia is covering for him. - Billybob2002 (talk) 21:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Second-term curse

It seems that Obama got the Second-term curse, the article doesn't tells what happend since obama started his Second-term in Presidency... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.127.150.34 (talk) 09:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

That would go in Presidency of Barack Obama. HiLo48 (talk) 10:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Still, Obama has sworn into a second-term on January 20, 2013 and since then, additional information about the second-term is missing, like nothing was happend in the last 4 and half months... 77.127.150.34 (talk) 10:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

That post reads as if you didn't read my previous one. HiLo48 (talk) 10:21, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

it would still be a good idea to reedit and add some stuff from the second term.Ericl (talk) 14:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with HiLo48. This may belong in Obama presidency article. The reference to a curse is regarding the second terms of recent presidencies, not the individuals in the office. In other words, the curse would be on Obama presidency, not on Obama personally. This article should refer to the second term to the same extent it does the first. SMP0328. (talk) 17:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Umbrella gate

"While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article."
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
My suggestion for inclusion: In 2013 two Marines holded umbrellas above President Barack Obama and Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. But regulations prohibit Marines from using umbrellas while in uniform. (ref. http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/local_news/water_cooler/marines-holding-umbrellas-president-obama-asks-marines-to-hold-umbrellas-due-to-rain ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.83.197.255 (talk) 09:53, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Is this a joke? Somebody pass me the biggest trout that ever existed so I can use it as a weapon, please. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC) Four presidents, four umbrellas, one outrage Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 13:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC) (Personal attack removed) I reopened this conversation because the actual event HAPPENED and was documented. Sorry but, responding with "is this a joke," is just not going to do it. 68.50.119.13 (talk) 23:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Lots of things are actual events that happen and many are well-documented, but that does not mean they rise to a level of notability suitable for their inclusion in the encyclopedia. And to suggest that this has some relevance to this biography, this article about a person's whole life and career, is patently absurd. I am again closing this up. There is no "gate" here, and no one serious about improving this article would suggest that there is. Please stop your disruptive commenting Tvoz/talk 02:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

2013 Moore tornado

Unproductive, nonsensical. Tarc (talk) 00:02, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
My suggestion for the main article: Under Obama regime 24 people, including 10 children died in the 2013 Moore tornado. Only 16 minutes before the tornado touched down; at 2:40 p.m. CDT, a tornado warning was issued for the storm. But it was too late, and this is clearly Obama's responsibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.83.196.5 (talk) 23:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC) I thought Obama was responsible for firing up the super-secret hurricane and tornado generator. SMH †TE†Talk 23:25, 28 May 2013 (UTC) My suggestion is that this section is either collapsed or deleted, with the IP geo-located so that we can nuke its asshat user from orbit. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The Verizon scandal

Please add my suggestion: Document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing. “From a civil liberties perspective, the program could hardly be any more alarming. It’s a program in which some untold number of innocent people have been put under the constant surveillance of government agents,” said Jameel Jaffer, American Civil Liberties Union deputy legal director. “It is beyond Orwellian, and it provides further evidence of the extent to which basic democratic rights are being surrendered in secret to the demands of unaccountable intelligence agencies.”

ref. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20main-2%20Special%20trail:Network%20front%20-%20special%20trail:Position1 and http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/obama-administration-nsa-verizon-records?INTCMP=SRCH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.28.91 (talk) 01:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

This isn't a scandal, yet. It's just Big Brother. I'm waiting for Candidate Obama to step up and denounce it. Candidate Obama would hate President Obama. †TE†Talk 01:37, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

obama "madman"

Wikipedia is neutral, removing this because someone pointed out his flaws is retarded. RocketLauncher2 (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

David Bromwich

Is it really POV-pushing to mention David Bromwich's conclusion that, while Obama is not insane, he is power-crazed? Bromwich furnishes us with a watertight psychoanalytical basis for his deduction, yet the latter is being denied an airing by those who perhaps support their Democratic president's evisceration of the Fourth Amendment, his hoovering up of data on my and the rest of the world's e-mail and telephone calls, if you can forgive me for expressing myself so. Just curious. LudicrousTripe (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Based on what I read at David Bromwich I would answer: Yes, really. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:42, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Yep. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 17:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

A remote psychoanalytical evaluation by a professor of English? Yeah, that sounds completely watertight.

And back in his actual area of expertise, surely Bromwich understands the semantic difference between

"Obama has a harder time than any sane politician I have ever heard..."

and

"Obama has a harder time than any other sane politician I have ever heard..."

Fat&Happy (talk) 17:44, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Look: a quality psychoanalytical premise... cogent, tightly-argued prose... and let us not forget this:

Obama sees himself as the coolest head, the most reasonable listener, the practical man in a world of theorists and fanatics, but none of these traits qualifies one person to render alone a decision that twelve could only with difficulty make in good conscience. There is a point, after all, where messianic fervour and the love of executive power may converge. In commandeering the drone assassinations in Pakistan, Obama has taken on himself to judge without legal process and to kill with impunity persons he thinks ought to die. This fact we learned only recently and are still digesting.

I must now submit, but it is not because I believe I am in the wrong, nor because I lack a steadfast belief that Bromwich's article is as hilarious as it is devastatingly accurate regarding the power-crazed, authoritarian personality that currently resides in your White House. As someone famous once said, the United States is not North Korea, you are permitted to criticise the Dear Leader. LudicrousTripe (talk) 21:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks like a non-starter to me. If we're looking for color on his early life, best to factually relate some actual events and not somebody with no connection or relevance venting in the present day. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Obama smoked cannabis in college, and not just high school

Obama smoked cannabis beyond high school. Article indicates only high school: " At the 2008 Civil Forum on the Presidency, Obama expressed regret for his high-school drug use."

It should read something like: "... expressed regret for his high-school and college drug use."

Obama Recalls Getting Buzzed. By Steve Bloom. Apr 29, 2013. Steve Bloom is "Publisher of CelebStoner.com, co-author of Pot Culture and Reefer Movie Madness, and the former editor of High Times." Article quote:

Now that Colorado and Washington have legalized marijuana, Pres. Obama is softening up about pot. He made light of his college use at the White House Correspondents' Dinner on Saturday night. "I remember when buzz feed was just something I did in college around 2 am," the toking president said in reference to the website as well as his own days as a collegiate choomer. "It's true."

There are probably references elsewhere in his autobiography, others' biographies of him, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

It looks like your right, though I don't think a minor pro-pot publication is a great source. The actual quotation he mentions does not directly admit to smoking pot, it's a joke and it is about things "one did", not him personally. I would check for other sources but it would harsh my mellow. The article already contains more than enough information on the subject but I'd support altering it to mention that he smoked pot in high school and college. The exact wording of your edit is incorrect though, because it's a statement about what he said at the 2008 dinner, not what he actually did in college or said in 2013. Also, the quote from 2013 hardly sounds regretful. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

We cannot use coverage of his speech at the White House Correspondents Dinner as a reliable source for him smoking pot in college. We have no idea whether or not he was joking. If we go ahead and use this source for that, we may as well change his birthplace to Krypton, per an earlier speech at the same event. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Aw, bummer. This might require work. :) Being the WikiSloth slacker that I am... I found the transcript for the reference in the article: Saddleback Presidential Candidates Forum. Aired August 17, 2008. CNN.com - Transcripts. Emphasis added:

WARREN: OK, all right. Let's talk about personal life. The Bible says that integrity and love are the basis of leadership. This is a tough question. What would be, looking over your life -- everybody's got weaknesses. Nobody's perfect -- would be the greatest moral failure in your life? And what would be the greatest moral failure of America? OBAMA: Well, in my own life I'd break it up in stages. I had a difficult youth. My father wasn't in the house. I've written about this. You know, there were times where I experimented with drugs. I drank in my teenage years. And what I traced this to is a certain selfishness on my part. I was so obsessed with me and, you know, the reasons that I might be dissatisfied that I couldn't focus on other people. And I think the process for me of growing up was to recognize that it's not about me. It's about --

That's the reference for "At the 2008 Civil Forum on the Presidency, Obama expressed regret for his high-school drug use."

The referenced discussion does not say "high school". So the article should be corrected to "Obama expressed regret for his drug use." That would be accurate. He does not say when he used drugs in that discussion. And even if extrapolating to teenage years (the drinking reference), that includes college. He was in college in Los Angeles from 1979 to 1981. He was born August 4, 1961. So he turned 20 on August 4, 1981.

See also: Dreams from My Father. The Wikipedia article says: "Upon finishing high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles, where he enrolled at Occidental College, where he describes living a "party" lifestyle of drug and alcohol use." References are found there. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

(unindent) Here are the references for that sentence in Dreams from My Father:

• Obama (2004), pp. 93–94. see: Romano, Lois (January 3, 2007). "Effect of Obama's Candor Remains to Be Seen". Washington Post.. Article quote:

"Obama's revelations were not an issue during his Senate campaign two years ago. But now his open narrative of early, bad choices, including drug use starting in high school and ending in college, as well as his tortured search for racial identity, are sure to receive new scrutiny."

• Seelye, Katharine Q (October 24, 2006). "Obama Offers More Variations From the Norm". New York Times. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help). Article quote:

Mr. Obama had written in his first book, "Dreams From My Father" (1995), before entering politics, that he had used marijuana and cocaine ("maybe a little blow"). He said he had not tried heroin because he did not like the pusher who was trying to sell it to him. In an interview here on Monday conducted by David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker, at a meeting of the American Society of Magazine Editors, Mr. Obama said he was not making light of the subject. "It was reflective of the struggles and confusion of a teenage boy, he said. "Teenage boys are frequently confused."

• "Barack Obama '83. Is He the New Face of The Democratic Party?", Columbia College Today. January 2005. Article quote:

Obama went by the name Barry and got on the wrong track as an adolescent. He shunned school, spent much time playing basketball and turned to drinking and smoking marijuana, even experimenting with cocaine. Obama described this period of his life in his 1995 memoir, Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance. “I guess you’d have to say I wasn’t a politician when I wrote the book,” Obama told The New Yorker. Now that the transgressions are public information, he makes the best of the disclosure. “I wanted to show how and why some kids, maybe especially young black men, flirt with danger and self-destruction,” he said. ... Obama says he was still goofing off for the first two years of college, which he spent at Occidental in Los Angeles. He continued to play basketball, which friends say he is still quite good at, and was involved in other organized activities. He also spent “a lot of time having fun.” He changed course junior year when he transferred to Columbia.

--Timeshifter (talk) 02:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I did some searching in the biography Barack Obama: The Story, by David Maraniss, which was published on June 19, 2012. The Google Book URL for it:

• http://books.google.com/books?id=Wnna9CLtblAC

Here is "marijuana" in the index:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wnna9CLtblAC&q=marijuana+293-94+428

A search for "obama lay off marijuana" pulls up the relevant page (page 428):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wnna9CLtblAC&q=obama+lay+off+marijuana

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wnna9CLtblAC&pg=PT690&dq=obama+lay+off+marijuana

In one scene in the memoir, he quoted himself telling Sadik upon arriving in New York that he had spent the previous summer "brooding over a misspent youth." It was "time to make amends," he said. Now he was determined to get his act together and be of some use to society. He would read more deeply, eat more healthily, start running more frequently to keep in shape, and lay off marijuana, if not quit smoking. Sadik responded by calling Obama a bore. In reality the transition was not so sudden and dramatic. He had started changing earlier, and he was never that much of a deadbeat in the first place.

Obama was in college in Los Angeles from 1979 to 1981. He was born August 4, 1961. So he turned 20 on August 4, 1981. So he smoked in his teenage years in high school and in college in Los Angeles, and theoretically stopped, or laid off, or whatever, when he moved to New York in 1981 to go to Columbia College. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:55, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a very ugly and hard to read thread because of all the boxes and weird indenting, so I'm not sure if the issue of WP:DUE has really been addressed. As a teenager and college student of his generation it's not notable at all that Obama smoked cannabis. What might be considered notable is that as President he is discussing it. Whatever goes in the article needs to take that perspective. There must be no risk that it's anything of the form "Shock! Horror! The President smoked pot." HiLo48 (talk) 12:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey, it's a talk page, lighten up about the format. My only purpose in this whole thread was to show that he used cannabis through some college too, and not just high school, as the article says currently. People asked for better references, and I found them. I found another:

Dreams from My Father. Published first in 1995.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HRCHJp-V0QUC

"stopped getting high"

http://books.google.com/books?id=HRCHJp-V0QUC&q=stopped+getting+high

Obama himself says he stopped getting high while at Columbia College. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:10, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm quite light about the format thanks. Light headed from trying to follow the thread. It's a mess. HiLo48 (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

You'll be fine in a few hours. ;)

From page 120 of Dreams from My Father: "I stopped getting high. I ran three miles a day and fasted on Sundays". --Timeshifter (talk) 12:47, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Let's try to focus a bit here. The current sentence in the article says: "At the 2008 Civil Forum on the Presidency, Obama expressed regret for his high-school drug use."[5]. The only drug reference I could find in the source used for that statement was this: "Obama acknowledged his drug and alcohol use as a teenager when asked about his personal failure." So the sentence needs to either be changed from "high-school" to "teenage" or removed completely. I'd be inclined to go for the second choice since I see this information as bearing little relevance specially noting that his use of drugs is already mentioned in the article in the previous sentences. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 14:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I do not see the word "regret" in that source. I see a matter of priorities. I go for your second choice of removing the sentence altogether. It is redundant in a way since a previous sentence (as you pointed out) in the Wikipedia article says: "Obama has also written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his teenage years to 'push questions of who I was out of my mind'."

The 2007 source article for that sentence actually has 2007 points of view of Obama in it also:

But when an adult asked about his time as a student, Obama spoke bluntly. "I will confess to you that I was kind of a goof-off in high school as my mom reminded me," said Obama, who grew up in Hawaii. "You know, I made some bad decisions that I've actually written about. You know, got into drinking. I experimented with drugs. There was a whole stretch of time that I didn't really apply myself a lot. It wasn't until I got out of high school and went to college that I started realizing, 'Man, I wasted a lot of time.' "

That's time choices more than regrets. The 2008 Civil Forum reference could be used as another reference for that previous sentence. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:13, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Dreams from my Father is a primary source and we should be using secondary sources for the article. The writers of good secondary sources supposedly would have the ability to read Obama's autobiography and provide a reasonable interpretation. TFD (talk) 16:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we need to also use secondary sources to balance the spin and gloss Obama, as a politician, puts on his past drug use. Spin which I know most cannabis users in this thread find amusing. Currently we have this in the article:

Obama has also written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his teenage years to "push questions of who I was out of my mind". Obama was also a member of the "choom gang", a self-named group of friends that spent time together and occasionally smoked marijuana. At the 2008 Civil Forum on the Presidency, Obama expressed regret for his high-school drug use.

First and third sentences are primarily sourced to Obama. The second sentence is sourced to multiple informants in the biography by David Maraniss entitled “Barack Obama: The Story”. I also refer you to Dazed and Confused, a great, funny movie concerning the 1970s and cannabis use in high school, the same time period Obama was in high school.

I suggest getting rid of the last sentence, and changing the first sentence to say "Obama has written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine in high school and college." Keep the second sentence basically as is. Use a third sentence for spin quotes such as "Man, I wasted a lot of time" and "push questions of who I was out of my mind". --Timeshifter (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

How about this:

• Obama has also written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his youth to "push questions of who I was out of my mind".

Plus the second sentence and we throw out the third. It's vague enough to not have to worry about high-school vs/and/or college whilst encompassing both periods making it clear that those events took place long ago. Tell me what you think. Cheers. Gaba ^(talk) 18:57, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I am going to bow out of this discussion for the most part. I made my point about the article only acknowledging Obama's high school use, and not acknowledging his college use of marijuana, etc.. And I found the references for his college use. So I leave it up to other editors how to spin the Wikipedia article. I point out that Obama can't run for President again, and so there is little need for a big, sneaky partisan cat fight on that spin. :)

I also point out that Obama's latest remark about "buzzfeed" sort of points out the silliness of his past politically motivated spin on the issue. That buzzfeed remark has gotten a lot of coverage in the media. I suggest leaving out election spin altogether here, and putting it here instead: Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 and Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2012. How about this here:

Obama has also written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his youth. Obama was also a member of the "choom gang", a self-named group of friends that spent time together and occasionally smoked marijuana.

I don't think anything more is really needed. We don't have to speculate whether he ever smoked marijuana later in his life. That would be WP:OR. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:26, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

But he didn't inhale? Looks good to me. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:54, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Gaba removed the third sentence. See diff. That is fine by me. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:42, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I added reference details per WP:BOOKLINKS.

• Obama (1995, 2004), pp. 93–94.
• Maraniss (2012), pages with "choom gang". --Timeshifter (talk) 12:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Syrian Civil War

My suggestion is to open a new section in foreign policy with the following text: "Our militaries are constantly sharing information. We have seen evidence of the use of chemical weapons inside Syria," Obama said. "Those chemical weapons inside of Syria also threaten our security over the long term as well as [that of] our allies and friends and neighbours." ( ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22562372 ) The U.S. is to give more than $300 million in additional “life-saving humanitarian assistance” to Syrians caught up in the country’s civil war, Barack Obama has announced, taking the total amount given since the conflict began to nearly $815 million. The United States supports and appreciates the countries hosting the 1.6 million refugees who have fled the brutal conflict in Syria, and commends host-nation efforts to provide protection, assistance, and hospitality to all those fleeing violence. (ref. http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/18/19018208-obama-announces-extra-300-million-in-aid-for-syrians-refugees?lite ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.83.13.165 (talk) 15:46, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Not a notable part of Obama's life. Try Presidency of Barack Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. Furthermore I see lots of similarities with the Iraq war, from Iraq and weapons of mass destruction: "Bush stated that he "fully understood that the intelligence was wrong, and [he was] just as disappointed as everybody else" when U.S. troops failed to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Intelligence shortly before the 2003 invasion of Iraq was heavily used as support arguments in favor of military intervention, with the October 2002 C.I.A. report on Iraqi WMDs considered to be the most reliable one available at that time."" And the George W. Bush article is full of the word weapon. So don't afraid to use it here. Though I can accept that it doesn't look like too nice from a Nobel Peace Prize winner, that it is his 4th war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.168.95 (talk) 22:31, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

There is as yet no indication, and proportionately little coverage, of this as a major event in Obama's life. Any argument to the contrary is based on speculation, prediction, and personal opinion, none of which satisfy the sourcing requirements for the project. It appears that you are looking for a place to document your personal take on the situation, and there are many places where that is appropriate, just not an encyclopedia article. - 23:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I would say that every war is a major/historical event. So the support of this civilian war should be in the article. Google currently gives roughly 78 million hits for barack obama+syrian civil war. Thus I wouldn't say that there is a little coverage on this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.168.95 (talk) 23:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

While its true that wars are major events that does not nesessarly mean that it played a major role in Obama's life.--174.93.171.179 (talk) 03:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

But his dog's type is a major role in Obama's life? Currently in the article: "The Obamas have a Portuguese Water Dog named Bo, a gift from Senator Ted Kennedy." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.129.91 (talk) 09:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a biography article. You need to go to Presidency of Barack Obama — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.128.246.133 (talk) 10:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

His dog is not important to his presidency, but it is important personally. Hence, it gets a mention in his biography article. The personal importance of Syria remains to be seen; we haven't actually done very much at this time. We might in the future, but we can discuss that when it happens. As for your suggested addition, even in the presidency article, it would need work. That quote, for example, feels dropped in just so that you can have a quote. It does not flow or connect well with the rest of your suggested edit. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 10:51, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Terrorist, war criminal, and orator.

This is WP:POINT-making disruption, it is not legitimate discussion topic to cherry-pick fringe leftists calling a democratically-elected leader a "terrorist" in order to make a point about the sourced "orator" characterization. Tarc (talk) 00:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following are opinions of Obama from 5 notable people and one obscure health reporter. I suggest we add more material from the 5 and remove the comments by an unknown commenting outside her expertise as a health reporter. And yes, I think these are war crimes. I think they're acts of terror., Bill Ayers on Obama. [6] Obama, first of all, is running the biggest terrorist operation that exists, maybe in history., Noam Chomsky[7] Because we have to call things by their right names, and the reality is that by any serious examination, this man is a war criminal., Clare Daly, Irish member of Parliament [8] war criminal, Ralph Nadar. [9] war criminal, Cornel West [10] Obama is an exceptional orator, Diana Zlomislic, health reporter with the Toronto Star. Darkstar1st (talk) 07:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Please read [11], [12], [13]. The orator comment has three other sources, which you conveniently forgot to mention. --NeilN talk to me 10:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC) But four sources are listed for the "orator" comment. If Zlomislic is to be included as a source, someone needs to explain why she is a reliable source for the characterization. Otherwise her article should be removed. The existence of concurring sources is not a criterion for WP:RS. —Designate (talk) 00:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Terrorist, war criminal, and orator.

This is WP:POINT-making disruption, it is not legitimate discussion topic to cherry-pick fringe leftists calling a democratically-elected leader a "terrorist" in order to make a point about the sourced "orator" characterization. Tarc (talk) 00:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following are opinions of Obama from 5 notable people and one obscure health reporter. I suggest we add more material from the 5 and remove the comments by an unknown commenting outside her expertise as a health reporter. And yes, I think these are war crimes. I think they're acts of terror., Bill Ayers on Obama. [14] Obama, first of all, is running the biggest terrorist operation that exists, maybe in history., Noam Chomsky[15] Because we have to call things by their right names, and the reality is that by any serious examination, this man is a war criminal., Clare Daly, Irish member of Parliament [16] war criminal, Ralph Nadar. [17] war criminal, Cornel West [18] Obama is an exceptional orator, Diana Zlomislic, health reporter with the Toronto Star. Darkstar1st (talk) 07:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Please read [19], [20], [21]. The orator comment has three other sources, which you conveniently forgot to mention. --NeilN talk to me 10:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC) But four sources are listed for the "orator" comment. If Zlomislic is to be included as a source, someone needs to explain why she is a reliable source for the characterization. Otherwise her article should be removed. The existence of concurring sources is not a criterion for WP:RS. —Designate (talk) 00:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Usage of teleprompter

Fringe POV nonsense
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
From the current article: "Obama is frequently referred to as an exceptional orator". If this is true then why is the frequent and ongoing usage of teleprompter? Without even a mention of this I would think that you are whitewashing the article. He is so an exceptional orator that he is unable to deliver a speech to 6th graders: (ref.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVpOH4MGPBg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.75.22 (talk) 22:27, 21 June 2013 (UTC) 1. Your POV is showing. 2. A YouTube video is not a reliable source. HiLo48 (talk) 22:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC) For a kinda sad exercise you might want to search for the word "teleprompter" in the archives of this talk page. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC) Meh, it's still coming up recently. [22] Arkon (talk) 23:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC) No. No it is not. At least not by anyone other than ideologues and POV pushers that don't understand how absurd the finger pointing is. Every President since Truman has used a teleprompter. It's no different(other than giving you a better tool) than having notes at the podium. And it's a Hell of a lot better than writing on your hands. Dave Dial (talk) 23:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC) What's absurd is you responding with "No. No it is not." when you have a nice shiny link posted showing exactly that in my original comment. Your opinions on the talking heads and Sarah Palin have nothing to do with that. Arkon (talk) 23:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC) Teleprompter usage isn't extraordinary, that's the thing. It is only in the fringe wingnut portions of the media realm (i.e. non-reliable sources that made it out to be a bad thing. That's the point. The HuffPo link above is just a simple mention of a siation where he couyldn't use one, nothing more. Tarc (talk) 00:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC) Yes previous presidents also used teleprompter, but not on almost every speech, and that is a huge difference. Some historic speeches at the same Brandenburg Gate: JFK (1963) Ich bin ein berliner (I am a Berliner) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH6nQhss4Yc Reagan (1987) Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjWDrTXMgF8 Obama (2013) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tYFhENV4BmY#t=290s In the first two cases they were able to deliver the speech without using teleprompter, what a difference! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.161.154 (talk) 10:10, 22 June 2013 (UTC) Please stop with this embarrassing nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.248.99.209 (talk) 13:05, 22 June 2013 (UTC) Why would it be nonsense? I have brought to you 3 examples from same place but different POTUS how they have delivered their speeches. The first two speeches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_down_this_wall! has their own wikipedia page's, with official recording. So you can compare them, JFK and Reagan not used teleprompter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.83.191.199 (talk) 13:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't care whether Obama's teleprompter use is included or not. It has made the Onion, for whatever that's worth[23]. I will say that in hatting, it is not helpful to make comments like "Fringe POV Nonsense." The first and second of those three words are matters of opinion. And if we understand "nonsense" as meaning "not true", then that's just wrong, as it is indisputable that Obama does make heavy use of the teleprompter.William Jockusch (talk) 00:01, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Noam Chomsky on Obama

I would like to add a quote from Chomsky, who is the 8th most cited source in the world, and a political critic without objection. Obama, first of all, is running the biggest terrorist operation that exists, maybe in history. Darkstar1st (talk) 17:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Right after you add, "If George Bush were to be judged by the standards of the Nuremberg Tribunals, he'd be hanged." to Bush's biography. After all, Chomsky is the 8th most cited source in the world and a political critic without objection, right? There's a reason why we don't add media attention-seeking quotes to these things. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

So, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS? What goes into the Bush article has nothing to do with what goes into this article. Why shouldn't we include the opinions of high-profile sources? —Designate (talk) 22:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The quote is less than a week old. And prefaced with, "Well if we had anything like a free press..." I don't think hyperbolic comments made off the cuff belong here. Just as I don't think they belong in the Bush article. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Nobody brought up the Bush article except you. Sarcastically applying a point to other articles is precisely what WP:POINT says not to do. So let's talk about this article and this source and stop talking about other articles and other sources. How do you define something as "hyperbolic" or "off the cuff"? For example, if he reiterates the same point later on, would it no longer be considered "off the cuff"? —Designate (talk) 22:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being serious. Propose inserting the quote in the Bush article and see what arguments you get. You could probably apply the same ones here. Not the answer you want, I know. But having listened to the interview I do believe pieces could be pulled out for Foreign policy of the Barack Obama administration which could use a "Reaction To" section. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:23, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It'd be better to hear the arguments about this quote here than perform a thought experiment about what arguments other people would bring up elsewhere. —Designate (talk) 23:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, this bollocks was dismissed in the previous section. Why is it being brought up again? -- Scjessey (talk) 21:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Dismissal isn't an argument, is it? —Designate (talk) 22:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia, not Chomsky-pedia. Chomsky is a highly opinionated, polarizing figure who vociferously expounds on political beliefs way out of the mainstream, an area outside of his academic specialty. Unless the comments themselves are sourced as being relevant and of due weight to the Presidency, a high standard that they certainly do not meet, it's a non-starter to add to an article about the President that Chomsky called him a terrorist. If we added every thing of that nature that Chomsky said about anything we would pepper the entire encyclopedia with his opinions. And why stop there? There are thousands of equally opinionated prominent people from Rush Limbaugh to Lady Gaga. We have to filter all this noise for — again — relevancy and weight, not to mention POV and reliability of sourcing. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

But there are a half-dozen other notable people who have used the same phrase—and that discussion was immediately closed. So how can anybody argue this point, if naming one person's opinion is easily dismissed as "a figure way out of the mainstream" but naming 5 people's opinions is immediately dismissed as trolling? —Designate (talk) 02:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

So the article should become a repository of extreme opinions, without consideration of whether those opinions are fringe? An aside is that Chomsky is criticizing US foreign policy, with Obama merely being the latest actor—as such the comment is not appropriate to a biography of Obama. If there were a serious discussion in mainstream media to the effect that Obama has done something unusual, it might be warranted here, although his actions as President probably belong elsewhere. Johnuniq (talk) 03:05, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, the article should invoke the person's popular image/reception/legacy, as any biography should. These authors are criticizing Obama by name; to say "they're really talking about x instead" is original research. There's no criterion in WP:NPOV that only "something unusual" should be included in an article, and there's certainly no consensus that a person's actions as part of their job are non-biographical. What would John Adams' or Winston Churchill's article look like if we considered their political actions non-biographical? —Designate (talk) 03:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Designate where would you propose to add such a quote? Or are you proposing we create a new section containing quotes about Obama by random public figures? Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 03:13, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:CRITICISM lays out how we deal with this stuff; we include it organically in the article. Under "Foreign policy", for example, we could put

Obama's foreign policy has been praised for x quality, but has drawn criticism for y quality. Several political figures have condemned his foreign policy as "war crimes" or "terrorism".

"Cultural and political image" is also a possibility, but that's more broad and probably shouldn't focus on particular issues unless they become dominant. —Designate (talk) 03:30, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

You are suggesting that we use "reasonable" quotes as a vehicle for fringe opinion, when the reality is that none of these quotes are necessary. That's just not going to happen. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:45, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I haven't checked this article lately, but I would suggest that it would be more in keeping with NPOV (not to mention avoiding fringey stuff) to present conservative concerns about liberal Presidents, and liberal concerns about conservative ones. Just as in the Bush article, the criticisms are generally liberal criticisms, not criticisms from (say) Ann Coulter.William Jockusch (talk) 23:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

We need to avoid the cable-news philosophy of emphasizing the liberal vs. conservative dichotomy on every issue. This is an encyclopedia, written for a global audience for posterity, not for short-term American politicos. The philosophy of Wikipedia (and encyclopedias in general) is to present the mainstream image of a person, whether that includes lionization or demonization or a collective "meh". But it is important that these ideas come from a consensus of secondary sources—verifiabilty, not truth, etc. —Designate ([[User talk:Designate|talk] ]) 00:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Designate how about presenting the actual edit you'd like to make to the article instead of a general form of such? Your proposal is too vague to be able to give an accurate opinion of it. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 01:15, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, if you want to look at it that way, I'd suggest that criticism from places like National Review, the WSJ, and Fox is more mainstream than Noam Chomsky.William Jockusch (talk) 12:33, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Doctorate?

I have three sources saying Obama received an honorary doctorate from the University of Johannesburg (UJ) in South Africa. I don't know where to put this in the Wikipedia page. here are the sources: http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/obama-accepts-sa-university-doctorate-1.1539274#.Uc3qv_lgfIk http://www.citypress.co.za/news/barack-obama-accepts-uj-doctorate/ http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Obama-accepts-SA-varsity-doctorate-20130628 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.225.242 (talk) 20:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Not significant. He received that just because he is the president. Everybody else learns (at least) 3 years to get a PHD title, not speaking about that the candidate should write original papers to obtain this title. To sum up he has done nothing for this title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.191.90 (talk) 09:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Boston bombing

We dealt with this exact same thing a month ago. Same Hungarian proxy. Tarc (talk) 22:22, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
My improvement for the article: Under the Obama administration on April 15, 2013 two pressure cooker bombs exploded on Boston marathon, killing 3 people and injuring 264 others. Some of them sustained double amputations of limbs or permanent brain damage. For me it is raising many red flags that these killing sprees are not covered in the main article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.68.79 (talk) 21:08, 30 June 2013 (UTC) Your wording gives the impression that Obama is in some way responsible for the bombing. If that is not your intent, then what relevance does Obama being the President have to do with the bombing? SMP0328. (talk) 21:12, 30 June 2013 (UTC) Gun control? 300 million US citizens hold 300 million guns. Probably if you would hold less guns there would be less massacres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.68.79 (talk) 21:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC) What has that got to do with Obama? Do you think he can just order Americans to give up their guns? -- Scjessey (talk) 21:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC) Wow, where to start. You seem to think that President Obama is responsible for gun control. Have you heard of the Congress? Next, not every American has a gun. Far from it. Finally, no guns were involved in the bombing. Two bombs, no guns. Yes, there were guns used when the bombers tried to escape. Do you think people who are capable of using explosives to kill people, would care about gun control laws? In short, you're speculating; that's original research, not proof of Obama's responsibility for the bombing. SMP0328. (talk) 22:03, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Professor vs. lecturer

We got two feedback complaints on this issue last year, possibly from the same person:

24.18.159.159 found what they were looking for. 10:42, 17 April 2012 | Details

   Barack Obama was NEVER a professor. He was a lecturer. You need to change this in the list of positions he has held.

93.32.187.155 did not find what they were looking for. 19:28, 30 April 2012 | Details

   Obama was NEVER a constitutional law PROFESSOR. He was a constitutional law LECTURER - there's a big difference.

The infobox just says "Constitutional law professor". I added "(Senior Lecturer)", since some people make this distinction and others don't. [24] says "Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track." However, User:Fat&Happy reverted this change with the edit summary "rv; unnecessary clutter for infobox, detail of positions is in article text".

This seems problematic because clearly some people are seeing only the infobox part (which does not have an explanatory footnote) and consider it inaccurate or POV (perceived as giving Obama an unwarranted promotion). The article text does not explain that Senior Lecturers are considered professors. -- Beland (talk) 17:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Please make some effort to read the talk page archives before changing something that is obviously going to be controversial. This has been discussed to death on many occasions. The institution at which Obama taught referred to him as a professor, and we go with what the sources say. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The article itself does not say "professor", it says "taught as a...Lecturer...and as a Senior Lecturer". I'm not objecting to "professor" as well, but people are complaining that it looks like the article is claiming that he held the title of tenured Professor, which he did not. Like I said, some people are reading the infobox and not the text, so they perceive POV and accuracy problems. I thought it would simply be worthwhile to repeat both terms in both places, but wedging "professor" into text was awkward. I agree this makes the infobox text less pretty, but that might be worthwhile to reduce confusion and misperception. -- Beland (talk) 19:52, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) A reader who came here with no preconceived notions or agenda and who had read only the infobox would not make either of the quoted feedback comments. Personally, I'm not particularly interested in modifying the article to humor those who want to push an agenda of denigrating Obama's background or accomplishments. If, OTOH, the comments represented good faith confusion because of the content difference between the infobox and the article text, the appropriate solution might be to modify the article text to clarify that the specific position mentioned is regarded as a professorship by the university, a point which I thought used to be there but, if so, must have been removed somewhere along the way. Fat&Happy (talk) 20:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Nav template

Some of the feedback I've been reading is asking questions that are answered in other articles (like list of books and speeches). I think part of the problem is that {{Barack Obama}} by default is hidden, and requires two unhide clicks to open. As these articles are most directly related to the subject unlike the other templates (these are really subarticles, not merely extensive "see also" lists), I think it would be helpful to readers if this template was by default open. What do you think, and how would we go about changing the layout to do that? -- Beland (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Law license

So, apparently there is a false rumor circulating on the Internet that Barack and Michelle Obama lost or inactivated their law licenses due to fraud. Some people are arriving at this article either to check that out or are complaining that this "fact" is not mentioned. The existing text in the article made the false rumor sound plausible, especially since it uses the passive voice:

His law license became inactive in 2007.

I changed the article to give a more complete explanation which will hopefully un-confuse our readers:

His law license voluntarily changed status to "inactive" in 2007 and "retired" in 2009. (A false rumor started circulating on the Internet around the time of the 2008 presidential election that Barack and Michelle Obama had done this to avoid ethics charges, but it is typical to do so when not intending to practice law because active status requires continuing education and payment of fees.)

But this addition was reverted by User:Wikidemon with the edit summary "not biographically significant".

I'm not sure why the law license going inactive is worth mentioning at all, if it weren't for the rumor. Personally, I find it rather interesting that not only did people say such things on the Internet, but the rumor was distributed so widely that both Snopes and the Annenburg Public Policy Center found it necessary to write articles debunking it. It's also interesting in terms of both personal history and American political history that this President has actually had several rather nasty false rumors widely spread about him, and it's a bit sad that any mention of any them gets deleted from this article. Will future readers think Barack Obama had an easier time than he really did? -- Beland (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Future readers, one hopes, will respect our encyclopedic approach to biographies. We only have so many words to discuss the entire life of a very prominent person, and so we have to pick and choose, based on principles of how biographical articles are written, relevance to the subject of the article, and the relative importance the sources place on things. There are several articles entirely on the subject of conspiracy theories and political attacks on the President. The routine political attacks on the president in the course of a campaign are more relevant to articles about those campaigns and elections; those that reflect people's uneasy relationship with Obama's skin color and African ancestry and disbelief that someone from his background could achieve what he did go into a line of articles about his public image. They are not all worth mentioning here. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

So, why are we spending precious words on noting that his law license is inactive, which is apparently routine? Where should this information be moved to? -- Beland (talk) 20:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Your intentions over the last few days are admirable but your execution leaves a lot to be desired; please, stop putting so much emphasis on the criticisms found in the article feedback. Obama's presidency has engendered a lot of extremely-far-right fringe hysteria over the years, and these people will never let go of their beliefs, however sincerely held, of various conspiracy theories. Whether it is the place of birth, the law license, the death panels, the terrorism ties, we can't keep putting parenthetical "such-and-such was a false internet rumor" throughout the article. That makes us look less like an encyclopedia and more like a Snopes-like urban legend debunker. The sorts of people leaving these comments will not be appeased by anything you do, any more than the complaints from Muslims about the Muhammad article would ever be assuaged by anything short of total obliteration of all prophet images. Just, let it go. Tarc (talk) 22:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

What about a section near the end of the article collecting factual controversies over facts which mainstream sources consider settled, as is done in the articles Global warming and Evolution? Then the facts are clear and unmuddled, but we're not pretending that the controversies doesn't exist (which makes the article look at best incomplete and at worst biased). -- Beland (talk) 01:35, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

No. Amplifying nonsense is not Wikipedia's role. Anti-science attacks have been going on for decades and have global significance, hence they are mentioned in appropriate articles. However, a BLP does not contain a list of discredited smears. Johnuniq (talk) 02:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Article on African-American heritage of United States presidents

Hopefully this will be the last complaint about untrue claims I find in reader feedback, but I just found out we have an entire article on the subject of African-American heritage of United States presidents. There's at least one feedback complaint that Abraham Lincoln was the first U.S. President with African heritage. This and claims for five other presidents are listed there. This topic seems directly related to the claim of this article that Barack Obama is the first African American President. I'm not sure how I should link there from here without making someone's head explode. Footnote? Add to some nav template? Any advice? -- Beland (talk) 20:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You don't. From the article you came across: "None of the claims below has been verified by reliable sources in peer-reviewed publications". --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Right, but apparently they are notable enough that we spend a whole article discussing them. -- Beland (talk) 20:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Notable as whackjob conspiracy theories, nothing more. We don't list the fringe alongside the mainstream, e.g. we'd never have a footnote on Obama's birthplace explaining the birther point-of-view. Discussing them is fine within the context of that article. Not here. Tarc (talk) 22:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree, the claims about Lincoln may be notable as a conspiracy but that does not in itself mean that it is relevant regarding this article. I am not aware of any mainstream sources that seriously entertain the idea that there were any African-American president before Obama.--70.49.82.84 (talk) 00:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

About that article, "Obama's campaign organization and other people said he was born in the U.S." don´t seem to reflect mainstream opinion very well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

That seems to depend on which main stream you choose to be part of. HiLo48 (talk) 11:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no mainstream but my mainstream. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:36, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

When I last checked (and this was a few years ago) there were already hundreds of articles on Wikipedia that related directly to Obama, probably many thousands that mention or link to him. Including a link to each one, much less mentioning the subject, would completely overwhelm this article. We have to stick to things that are significant and on topic. Other things just have to be two clicks away instead of one, but links aren't the only way to organize information. That's what things like categories and the search bar are there for. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree, this section is unnecessary and does not belong. Just because an article exists on wikipedia does not necessarily mean it is true or a well written article with verified research. It only means that someone (possibly) believes what they wrote and no one has gotten around to actually reviewing it yet.Fjf1085 (talk) 02:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Fully agree with Fjf1085. I only want to add that the self-identifying must be reasonable. Obama's racial self-identifying is clearly reasonable based on his appearance and that his father was black. SMP0328. (talk) 03:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Link to religion conspiracy theory article

I added this link to the bottom of Barack_Obama#Religious_views:

Further information: Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories

But this addition was reverted by User:Scjessey with the edit summary: "batshit insane fringe theories not worthy of inclusion in the main article"

Regardless of whether or not the theories have any basis in fact, they are in my opinion clearly are a notable part of the President's biography. According to polls cited in that article, during the 2008 election they were believed by 20% of Americans, and became an issue in the campaign. Clearly Wikipedia finds this topic notable, because we have a whole article on it. This section discusses the President's religious views, and the subarticle directly addresses that topic as well. Other sections link to articles directly addressing subtopics; I don't see why this one shouldn't. When I first read the Barack Obama article, I assumed that this section was the only coverage on the Obama religion controversy; I didn't not know there was a whole article devoted to it. I think the instinct to purge this article of any mention of these unpleasant lies is doing a disservice to readers; the encyclopedia should document the fact that unpleasant lies were a notable issue in this part of this person's life, and not try to make that information hard to find. -- Beland (talk) 20:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yet another piece of bullshit promoted by Obama's political opponents. As a quality encyclopaedia, Wikipedia should not have to mention this crap. HiLo48 (talk) 22:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. A conspiracy "theory" does not belong in a biography of the President of the United States, or anyone for that matter. Unless, this "theory" can be proven then it does not belong here.Fjf1085 (talk) 02:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that we should have a link to this article per WP:NPOV and WP:ONEWAY. But I'd also like to state that the fact that something is wrong is not a valid reason for exclusion, but its importance (or lack thereof) is. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Off topic

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Sam Vaknin believes Obama is a narcissist, and the evidence is pretty compelling.

http://www.globalpolitician.com/default.asp?26147-obama-narcissist-white-house-usa/

I believe this important information should be placed prominently into the article, perhaps even in the lede. LudicrousTripe (talk) 13:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a joke right? Right? Gaba ^(talk) 13:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

It's obviously just trolling. The same user has done it before (with Obama being called "insane" last time). -- Scjessey (talk) 16:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, got it. Thanks Scjessey. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 16:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Broken/Red link in lede

@Hot Stop: Did you mean to do this edit?[25] It re-added a broken/red link to the lede. On the assumption that this edit was accidental/unintentional, I've reverted it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It was unintentional. The correct article link is War in Afghanistan (2001–present) but I accidentally restored a link to the non-existent War in Afghanistan (2001–) (which I'm not creating as a redirect to avoid such confusion. Hot Stop talk-contribs 19:03, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Biracial?

I was looking through the reader feedback. A very common theme is that he is biracial. I know this has been discussed before, but in light of the feedback, do we still think we should way he is African American?

To be clear, I don't really care one way or the other. But the extensive reader feedback is there.William Jockusch (talk) 12:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous reader comments on the matter have no bearing whatsoever. The project has standards for sourcing information in articles, and the sources here follow the American normal of using the "African-American" terminology. Tarc (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

This is one of those times where the truth isn't important to Wikipedia. Really not worth rehashing. Arkon (talk) 16:59, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree, this ship has long since sailed.--70.49.82.84 (talk) 21:04, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I believe that for (encyclopedic) accuracy, he should be described as biracial. I gather that African American tends to be synonymous with black; which imo is an important, dramatic, coup for his proponents; E.g. "The first black president!". Beingsshepherd (talk) 02:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

Please take the time to read Q2 in the FAQ. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. ' the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. '

This is an encyclopedia which holds popular opinion higher than accuracy? Beingsshepherd (talk) 03:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

Again, please read FAQ #2. Are you perhaps unfamiliar with American conception of race? You may want to follow some of the links and read up on the subject. - Wikidemon (talk) 04:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

' We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American." ' That doesn't explain why you can't/won't give prominence to both. Beingsshepherd (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

Well, yes, actually it does, unless you can demonstrate that a significant number of reliable sources give as much emphasis to your proposed additional description as to "African-American". Fat&Happy (talk) 17:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Bizarre. The weight of evidence for AA, has set a standard for all this article's other claims to equal? Beingsshepherd (talk) 00:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

For those claiming biracial is factual, please come up with a precise, universally agreed definition of race, then we can proceed. HiLo48 (talk) 21:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

You could, of course, start here, or here, or maybe even here. Not to mention the many available sources that use the term regarding Obama and others. Arkon (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

lol@HiLo48. By that rationale, maybe we ought to delete all Wikipedia proclamations of 'Art' and 'God'. I'm pretty sure there's a consensus on biracial; which can be found in many a dictionary. Beingsshepherd (talk) 01:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

OK, what is your unarguable definition of race that applies here? HiLo48 (talk) 04:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics. 2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race. 3. A genealogical line; a lineage. ~ www.thefreedictionary.com Beingsshepherd (talk) 01:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

LOL. Surely you jest. Or have completely missed the point. To give three answers simply proves that there is NO single, unarguable definition of race. HiLo48 (talk) 20:58, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Footnote needed

Currently there is no citation in the intro itself to support using the term "African American", though there are elsewhere in the article. If the decision is to "follow the sources", and there are no sources cited, this creates a problem.

It is not merely anonymous readers who describe Obama as "biracial" or "multi-racial". If you look at the Wikipedia article Multiracial#United_States (and Biracial redirects to Multiracial), or Multiracial American, you'll see Obama's photo clearly displayed and read about him in the text. Moreover, which term to use is a major political issue, and a controversy which is also documented in reliable sources. See, for example, the debate at [26].

Given how the Obama self-identifies and how he is usually described, I think it's fine to leave "African American" in the body text, but I think it would be wise to add a footnote that says something like:

President Obama has one parent of African and one parent of European ancestry. He identifies as African American, and is described this way by his official White House biography ("President Barack Obama". whitehouse.gov. {{cite web}}: External link in |publisher= (help)) and most media sources.(Citation) Some others refer to him as "biracial" or "multiracial";(Citation) see Multiracial American for more background information.

One-drop rule also explains more of the history, but I'm not sure that's appropriate to link to directly.

I think this would be an improvement because:

• Some people find this label a simple factual error; an explanation with references would make this politically delicate article more credible.
• Readers not familiar with racial identity politics and practices in the United States may be confused about the apparent discrepancy.
• The label, as demonstrated by the debate, is politically charged. Some people who disagree with it find it non-neutral, which makes it problematic for Wikipedia to use without qualification. (For example, some critics on the right try to deny Obama an important "first" by saying he's not really African American or make him look like he's lying about his race. Others on the left are unhappy that race must be a binary classification, or that Obama is not supporting the right of multi-racial Americans to identify that way, or don't believe that distinct races exist at all.)
• A lot of feedback complains that the article in general is biased. If we want to have any hope of sounding neutral, this issue should be handled more delicately, especially since this is one of the first claims in the article and it's a very bold one.
• Some of the feedback complains that the article is incorrect and that Obama is actually partly Arab. (I expect that's more common among his opponents, but some people also generally confuse Arabs with Muslims, and Obama's father was previously Muslim and the middle name doesn't help clear this up.) If we want to have any hope of educating people who hold factually incorrect ideas, it's important that this claim be better referenced.

-- Beland (talk) 03:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, "he identifies as African American, and is described this way by his official White House biography" is the be all and end all of the matter. There is no footnote in existence that could be created to adequately deal with the constant ignorance and browbeating surrounding this particular topic. Sometimes it is is ok to just tell people "no". Really. Tarc (talk) 03:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Sources have to be independent. An Official White House biography, obviously isn't. Beingsshepherd (talk) 03:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

Beland may actually be onto something here. If adding a footnote to our use of the term in the lead could slow down the rate of questions/comments/complaints over it by even 10%, wouldn't it be worth doing, even just so we don't have to keep rehashing it every three days? And what could it hurt? If it could slow down the complaints by 50% it would free up a lot of our collective volunteer time to make actual improvements elsewhere, and if it improves the article's perceived reliability (we know it's reliably sourced, but does every reader know that?), then that's a win-win, isn't it? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 04:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Because it would not reduce the rate at all. Almost all of the "questions/comments/complaints" are out and out trolling, and 10% because the people who can't keep reading a paragraph or two down to learn more about Obama's early life and parentage are not going to mouse over a footnote and be satisfied. Obama self-identifies as an AA, he is described as such by sources, we don't need a footnote to explain away the ignorance fretted about above. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 04:44, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm going through and separating the trolling from the complaints with merit. People who complain that the article should say that Obama is biracial are not ignorant; they just have a different point of view. Wikipedia itself actually says that on other articles, but not this one. I am wondering, as Wilhem is, what the downside would be. -- Beland (talk) 13:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I just realized, an alternative to a footnote is to say in the main text that Obama is "the first African American and first biracial person to hold the office". Both are true; one as a matter of identity, and one as a matter of classification. If another biracial person is elected, I don't think anyone will be able to claim they would be the first. -- Beland (talk) 13:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Beland, I agree. I believe your wise suggestion should be added.Beingsshepherd (talk) 17:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

If he says he is African American, then he is African American. Race is a personsal issue and can be very subjective depending on how a person sees themselves. Barack Obama could also be described as bi/multiracial because he is the offspring of two people who each identified as different races. However since he does not commonly consider himself biracial then he should properly be identified as African American although both descriptions could be accurate. Barack Obama has equal claim to the descriptor European American/ Caucasian as he does African American since he inherited an equal share of his genetic make up from his mother who was of European decent. It is really telling that in 2013 this issue of racial identification is still being debated by people. I stand by my statement that a person should be regarded however they want to be regarded. Barack Obama is African American because he says he is not because he appears to be.Fjf1085 (talk) 02:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a fan club. We don't pander to how the subjects define themselves. Beingsshepherd (talk) 02:56, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

As far as racial identification goes, yes we do. HiLo48 (talk) 03:05, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Then you better hurry and fix the Shooting of Trayvon Martin page where Zimmerman is referred to as a "white Hispanic". He identifies as Hispanic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smeg123 (talk • contribs) 04:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

So if President Obama decides he's Asian tomorrow, we amend that *fact* accordingly? Beingsshepherd (talk) 03:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

That's a pointless hypothetical deserving of no answer. HiLo48 (talk) 03:19, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

You just astonishingly claimed: we pander to subjects' (preferred) racial identification. Are we here as a reliable information source, or to flatter noteworthy people? Beingsshepherd (talk) 03:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

It is pointless to discuss hypotheticals like the one you proposed because it wont happen but, even if it did then what business is it of ours? He lived in Asia for a time so if he decided he had more in common with Asians and decided based on his up bringing that he was Asian than who are we to disagree. It is not pandering, race is extremely subjective and always has been. How do you resolve the fact that as a child of a white woman and a black father President Obama could rightly claim to be either race. He just happens to appear to be more African, whatever that means exactly. But, like I said he could claim to be either, I suppose though he would encounter a problem with many people if he claimed he was white...

We begin to enter very dangerous territory when we, as a society, start classifying people into races and categories based on their appearance alone and without personal input. There is a reason the census asks you for your race and just doesn't assign one based on your appearance and/or last name or some other trait.Fjf1085 (talk) 01:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

It's our business as encyclopedia editors. If you're so factually sure of his parents' black & white ethnicities, then why do you have a problem with innocuously naming their child biracial? As this is such a grey area, to satisfy both camps, let's either: delete all reference to his ethnicity or add: biracial. Fair? Beingsshepherd (talk) 03:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

If a footnote would help clarify the article then I don't see the problem with adding one. --Philpill691 (talk) 03:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

We are not adding a footnote for this; no amount of footnoting will ever alleviate simple ignorance. I myself am of the same mixed parentage as the president, yet due to my upbringing and skin color I identify as "African-American" as well. The term is more a social construct than a specific marker of racial makeup, and is what most American men and women with dark skin associate themselves with. Simple as that. Tarc (talk) 03:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, most of the world sees him as African-American. (I speak as an Australian.) There's no point going down any other path, nor going out of our way to justify that description. HiLo48 (talk) 05:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

the term is as unnecessary and as bizarre as referring to you as a European-Australian, or me as an American-European, or JFK as an Irish American. just because it is current popular slang as black, colored, etc. once were, it does not need to be perpetuated here. no other president is identified by race or racial stereotypes (African-American is not a race) Darkstar1st (talk) 06:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Dunno where you're from, but it's obviously an American habit to label people that way. They do use Italian American quite frequently, and I suspect Greek American is common enough too. One of the important things about Obama's Presidency is that it was unthinkable that someone of his background could become President even 20 years ago. His "racial" background is important BECAUSE it's the USA. Oh, and I agree that it's not a race. Obama is human, just like you and me. HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

All of this discussion is essentially irrelevant. The preponderance of reliable sources that exist (and they are counted in their millions) refer to Barack Obama as an African American, and Wikipedia reflects what reliable sources say. This is reinforced by his self-identification as an African American. Walk up to most any random person in the street and ask them to describe Obama's ethnicity, and almost everyone will say African American, black, or some variation thereof. While the "biracial" label is true, it is simply not of great significance. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Your last remark is totally unsubstantiated and bigoted.' Barack Obama: Let’s not forget that he’s America’s first bi-racial president ' ~ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/barack-obama-lets-not-forget-that-hes-americas-first-bi-racial-president/2012/11/08/938765d4-29b1-11e2-b4e0-346287b7e56c_blog.html Unsigned comment added by Beingsshepherd (talk) 17:29, 8 July 2013

Tarc says "no amount of footnoting will ever alleviate simple ignorance." I disagree. Reliable information is precisely what alleviates simple ignorance. That's what we're all doing here, isn't it? We're building an encyclopedia to enlighten readers all around the world. If there are, as Jessey says, millions of reliable sources calling Barack Obama the first "African American" President then finding one or two of these to place in a footnote should be easy. What I don't see is any compelling reason to withhold our sources for this from the readers. Continuing in the same way will yield the same results. Readers will continue to complain, ask on the talk page, and change the article until we at least put a footnote. To stubbornly refuse to do so is not helping to improve the encyclopedia, it's just perpetuating the cycle. Try it and see. I'll bet we'll get fewer complaints over it if there is a footnote there. Or keep refusing and I'll open an RfC. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 16:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you or the timely confirmation of Tarc's assertion. Please see footnote No. 112 (as of this writing) supporting the statement "He became the first African American to be elected president." in the "2008 presidential campaign" section. Fat&Happy (talk) 17:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

In what way does that confirm Tarc's assertion? Because there is a footnote buried in the middle of the article? We're talking about the mention in the lead. Welcome to the conversation. And before you say we don't have to cite it because it's in the lead, WP:CITELEAD states: The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. So again I say, there is no compelling reason not to cite it in the lead, and MOS (and common sense) supports adding the citation, since it is clearly controversial. It's not our place to tell people it shouldn't be controversial. It is controversial, so it is our place to inform people via the article, not to make them chase it down in the FAQ or get into a big debate on the talk page. FWIW, I agree with Tarc 90% of the time, but not on this. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 20:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm mixed on this. I don't have the stats but many blacks in America have some recent white ancestors. It would be undue, and probably insulting to some, to put a footnote in each bio that the person is actually mixed race or biracial. Instead we note the relevant facts if any of their parents and their background, which may or may not speak to their parents' race, culture, ancestry, religion, etc. If you go back beyond the recent past the whole concept of equating race with ancestry breaks down. And I suspect if you go a few generations into the future so many people will be mixed race and the obsession with the topic will seem silly. However, in Obama's case race is a big issue because he's the first African-American President, something few people thought could happen so soon. It was a historic breakthrough for America. His being the first biracial president, the first from Hawaii, etc., is not as big a deal for sure, and the US-based sources confirm that by their relative lack of coverage of these subjects. On the other hand, even though he is the American President, this is an international encyclopedia and some, particularly those from other countries that have their own understanding of race and culture, are perplexed that he is called black when he is of mixed ancestry. It would not make sense to explain America's concept of race in every article about a black American, but perhaps due to the special nature of this article and the amount of interest worldwide, it would be helpful to explain America just a bit here. Kind of the way that if you go to the most famous monuments there is a sign in many languages to help our international guests, but if you go to the bus stop it's just Spanish, English, and perhaps French or Chinese. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

There aren't citations for anything in the intro. Everything that needs to be cited is referenced in the main body of the article, including him being an African American (as pointed out by Fat&Happy). -- Scjessey (talk) 18:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a source citation, but rather an explanatory note. And it doesn't need to be in the lede, it could be in the body. I'm not even sure how to do that consistent with the MOS (manual of style), but keeping in mind that this is a featured article anything like this would have to be done properly per the MOS. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:47, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I wonder what percentage of these perpetual disputes are actually started by U.S. residents who refuse to acknowledge that the U.S. actually has an African-American president rather than members of the international community who don't understand the American views of race. I'm pretty sure residents of Canada, home to many descendants of escaped slaves, have managed to follow events in their giant next-door neighbor fairly closely. One of the sources currently cited in the article is the BBC. HiLo, from Australia, seems to grasp the concept, as does Scjessey, who I believe has identified in the past as European, or at least not from the U.S. That's representation from a fairly sizable chunk of the English-speaking world. And for those who know absolutely nothing about the history of race relations in the U.S., African American can be linked. For those who choose to rely on their instincts rather then following a link – well, his father is African and his mother is American, so African American should seem intuitively correct. How many other major articles in Wikipedia use notes to explain why well-cited material is accurate even though the reader may not [want to] believe so? Fat&Happy (talk) 20:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I wonder why you are framing this as people's beliefs. It's a fact that he is biracial, it's a fact that he identifies as african american. That's all. Arkon (talk) 20:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That's a good point Arkon. It's a verifiable fact, written about in many reliable secondary sources. It can and should be verifiable in the article. Yes, I know there's a citation somewhere deep in the body of the article, but many readers see the mention in the lead and stop reading there, so it should be cited in the lead as it has been demonstrated to be controversial. WP:CITELEAD (part of WP:MOS), states: The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. That's why I think we should put in the footnote. It's controversial, whether we think it should be or not, and it doesn't really matter where the readers are from. Wikipedia is supposed to be verifiable, period. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 20:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, except you're wrong. It's not controversial. There are almost no reliable sources that emphasize Obama being of mixed race, and even less that mention any so-called "controversy" over Obama being called the first African American President. In fact, there are so many reliable sources that describe Obama as the first African American President, it falls into 'common knowledge' territory and doesn't even really need a source in the body. Or that would be the case except for the incessant complaining of those who can't accept the fact he's President. Someone wondered above if the anon complainers from the article feedback were really International people wanting to understand race in America. Every one of those complaining about Obama being listed as the first African American President resides in the United States. I checked. So no, there is no 'controversy', insofar as reliable sources are concerned. The 'controversy' is just disgruntled internet trolls that could care less if there is a FOOTNOTE explaining the reasons Obama is regarded as the first African American President. But if people want to indulge the false notion that adding a footnote will help with all the trolling, then go ahead and open a RFC. There is no consensus to add it here. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

But you're reading the word controversial in a slightly different sense than what I was saying. I didn't mean to imply that reliable sources disagree, but rather that our readers often disagree. Perhaps I should have stuck to the "likely to be challenged" language of WP:CITELEAD. I apologize for not communicating my meaning more clearly. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 21:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a travesty to say "African-American and the first biracial president" or similar, if and only if there is a high quality reliable source directly stating the same. But it's entirely unnecessary. Anyone interested in his heritage is going to read about his mom in this article, so it's not worth arguing one way or another. EllenCT (talk) 23:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Controversy

I fully understand why a controversial, acting US politician would have a locked wikipedia page. But I don't think it's possible to accurately portray Obama's presidency without including a section on the scandals that have driven his approval rating below 50%. There is no real mention of the IRS, Libya, or NSA wiretapping, which I think are a major part of his public image at the moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.245.253 (talk) 04:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Yaaaawwwnn. HiLo48 (talk) 09:02, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Please direct your complaints to the Presidency of Barack Obama. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.128.246.133 (talk) 11:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Why? This is the Barack Obama article so NSA wiretapping and several other issues that have garnered criticism should be here. I´ve read the article and I don´t see anything negative. Can somebody explain this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.43.160.129 (talk) 02:01, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Somebody has explained it. Kindly open up the FAQ section at the top of this page and direct your attention to Q6 through Q9. That addresses the original question of this thread. Regarding NSA spying specifically, it seems quite possible that the Administration's approach to spying, national security secrets, etc., and the controversy and fallout from that, will rise to the level that it is biographically significant and will be in this article. However, we are still in the middle of that news cycle and it is too early to know for sure. Lots of things that seemed very important at the time for a few weeks, e.g. the IRS treatment of Tea Party nonprofits, died away and probably won't be remembered much. That's not just negative stuff, positive stuff also fades over time. Incidentally, the standard for inclusion isn't whether it reflects positively or negatively on the person, it's related to whether it helps tell their life story. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Should "the first African American to hold the office" have a footnote in the lead?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should "the first African American to hold the office" (of President of the United States) have a footnote citation in the lead? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 21:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

A footnote saying what? And why? HiLo48 (talk) 21:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

A footnote citation was added to the lead section of the article in order to verify the assertion that Barack Obama is the first African American President of the United States (via this edit, and was quickly reverted with the edit summary "Not needed -sourced in body - no controversy by reliable sources." WP:CITELEAD reads in part: "The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be supported by an inline citation." It does not say citations are only needed if there is controversy among reliable sources, it says "material that is challenged or likely to be challenged." This particular assertion has in fact been challenged many times. See the extensive discussion above (under #Footnote needed). Several editors here have requested the footnote/citation, and several others have decried it as unnecessary. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 22:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Any chance you could re-write that in plain English? I'll just ask one simple question again - Exactly what do you propose that this footnote will say? HiLo48 (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

The footnote should point to reliable sources verifying the claim that Barack Obama is the first African American POTUS, per WP:Verifiability and WP:CITELEAD (part of MOS:LEAD). What part of this should I clarify? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 22:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Precisely what words would this footnote contain? (I'm truly puzzled. At least one of us is missing something here. Is there something wrong with my use of the English language?) HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I included this diff above to demonstrate precisely what I am proposing. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 23:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

That's not a footnote! Do you actually have any idea what you really want? HiLo48 (talk) 23:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Fine. Call it a citation. It's the same thing. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 00:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not the same thing. Wikipedia demands a certain level of competence, and yours, combined with poor manners, is not looking good. HiLo48 (talk) 03:04, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, yes, citations placed in <ref> tags are footnotes. See WP:CITEFOOT for a more detailed explanation. I have not been uncivil to anyone here, HiLo, but your comment here is rather less than civil. Why would you invoke WP:COMPETENCE? Just because YOU don't know the definition of the word footnote? Don't you know how to disagree with someone's position without making personal attacks? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 13:44, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, whatever the WP terminology, in general parlance any snippet of text at the bottom of a page that appears next to a symbol that corresponds with an identical symbol in the text in the body of the page might be considered a footnote, whereas a citation is a link to a supporting source regardless of where it appears on the page. Be that as it may, even if the competence essay does not say so, people have a lot more patience for people making suggestions here on the talk page than edits to the main page. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:21, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Why did you immediately post an RfC without first attempting to discuss the issue? On its face, this looks like an abuse of process. --Loonymonkey (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I think you missed the discussion above. Arkon (talk) 23:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• No Footnote - Footnotes in the lead are ungainly and bad practice. They are acceptable in low/mid-importance articles, but have no place in an article like this one. That said, I am sensitive to the whole "mixed race" controversy. This is probably a different debate entirely (and one that I'm guessing has been had over and over), but perhaps one could fidget in some kind of language like "self-described African American President", to try to make it clear that WP isn't taking a stand on his racial identity. NickCT (talk) 23:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

NickCT, please refer to WP:CITELEAD, which explicitly states that anything challenged or likely to be challenged in the lead of an article should be properly referenced. This is part of Wikipedia's Manual of Style, so I'm afraid your argument is counter to policy. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 23:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Read further into WP:CITELEAD. "the necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus". Fact is the African American debate has been had over and over. Consensus on this topic has been found. NickCT (talk) 23:56, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• No citation. (This is a footnote, for the record). Agreed with Nick above me. As a rule of thumb, only quotations are cited in the lead.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 00:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Question. By "footnote", do you mean a cite? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I mean a "ref tag" or a citation template. Whatever you want to call it, it's the thing you see in the diff I linked in my rationale. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 00:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• No There are lots of fake controversies concerning Obama, and his biography should not spread FUD by attaching unnecessary cites or footnotes to each attacked fact. If it is true that lots of people do not understand what "African American" means, please update African American, but no further explanation is needed here. Further, an RfC for a topic "on article probation" (see box at top of this talk page) should not be so vague—the correct approach would have been to make an actual proposal so the details could be evaluated. Johnuniq (talk) 00:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I made a proposal (actually, it was a follow-on to an issue raised here on talk by User:Beland). View the diff I linked in my rationale and you will see precisely what I am proposing. It does not spread fear, uncertainty and doubt to simply cite sources for the assertion that he's the first African American POTUS. The other editors here should know me well enough by now to know that I do not indulge any of the many whacko conspiracy theories from the lunatic camps, but I also take WP:Verifiability seriously, particularly in a biographical context. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 00:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

' I do not indulge any of the many whacko conspiracy theories from the lunatic camps ' I beg your pardon;? Beingsshepherd (talk) 01:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

Birther arguments, closet Muslim arguments, etc., which are not substantiated by any reliable sources. Is that a problem? I'm not accusing anyone here of anything. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 02:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes I do have a problem with naming those with whom one disagrees: whackos and lunatics. Esp. as we're supposed to keep things civil here. Beingsshepherd (talk) 02:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)Beingsshepherd

• No Citation. Ultimately, I completely agree with NickCT on this one even though I think there are positives that, in principle, could come out of adding a citation in the lead. Generally speaking, adding a source should reduce the number of folks who raise concern about it on the article's talk page. Alternatively, it could also bring more editors to the page challenging whatever sources are provided because they wish to bludgeon their argument no matter what. It's certainly true that this concern is raised often, but debate on the subject has routinely pointed to an overwhelming consensus based on self-identification and how essentially all reputable news sources reference him (e.g. [27], [28], [29]). I don't believe, in this case, adding of citation about this in the lead will effectively counteract the likelihood that this fact is so often challenged. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 15:23, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• No Citation Prefer fully uncited WP:LEAD with citations in the main body.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Citation not needed. By consensus, this article does not use citations in the lede because they are ugly and unnecessary (since everything in the lede is a summary of what follows in the body). If we are going to allow this one totally uncontroversial thing to be referenced in the lede, then we should reference absolutely everything. Come on! Let's beat the article to death with the Ugly Stick. Why not wrap a few key sections in <BLINK> tags while we're at it? Maybe some colored sprinkles and a dollop of butterscotch sauce? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• No citations in lede - I've been editing this article since December 2006, and can attest that it has long been consensus that we would not have cites in the lede. The lede is a summary of the article, and anything in the lede needs to appear in the text, properly cited. Overciting does not help the readability of the article and is just unnecessary. Further, it is absurd to cherrypick which phrase needs special attention and which not. As has been suggested above, there are those editors who might want cites for Hawaii and a host of other "controversial" matters. Although consensus can change, it clearly has not. Tvoz/talk 22:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Not cherrypicking anything, Tvoz, I've been watching this article for a long time, chiming in here on talk now and again, and reading a lot of the user feedback. It's one of the most frequent complaints (probably second to accusations of favorable bias). That's where I saw the merit in Beland's suggestion. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 23:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment by nom: I've pointed out WP:CITELEAD a few times, which is a subsection of WP:MOS. Several editors here have pointed to consensus against citing anything in the lead, but I assure you, any such consensus is only among editors on this page, not among the wider Wikipedia community (or is there consensus to strike down CITELEAD?). So are we just ignoring MOS now, just for this article? No one has produced a policy-based argument against including the citation in the lead, just that they don't like it and they think it's unnecessary. I would say the frequency of complaints about it (via edits, edit requests and article feedback, cumulatively) indicates that it is necessary. It is unwise to expect readers to hunt for citation #112 (or whatever it is) deep in the article before questioning something in the first sentence. That would be akin to posting a single "no trespassing" sign in the middle of a 1000-acre forest and then complaining of all the trespassers. I'm just saying let's try putting a sign at the gate. We are here to educate our readers, not to bait them, and we should face the reality that most of them don't understand everything about an article's topic before they look it up on Wikipedia. They should be able to educate themselves by coming to our article; they should not be required to educate themselves before coming to it. Anyone here who is more committed to their own ideology than to educating the reader should rethink the nature of their involvement in the project. Oh, and for the record, there were already two citations in the lead (including the infobox) at the time of my edit, so I'm not sure how committed everyone here really is to that "consensus" either. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 23:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

  The infobox is not the lede. The lede is the introductory paragraphs of text. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• No citation. I have no inherent objection to citations in the lead, but this falls under WP:BLUE as something that is a commonly known fact. Andrew³²⁷ 23:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
• Citation not neededUser:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
• No citation. No reason to cite common knowledge, whether in the lead or elsewhere. Jaytwist (talk) 17:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
• No. Not necessary. JoeSperrazza (talk) 02:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
• No citation The extraordinary combination of: exact same fact being explicitly stated and cited in the article, and that the pattern here has been no cites in the lead, that there appears to be an overwhelming consensus to leave it out, that there is policy that lends some support for leaving it out, and (IMHO) no strong arguments have been made for duplicating it in the lead (i.e. not also applicable (e.g. bi-racial point) to the body of the article), I think that is enough for me to support leaving it out on a wp:iar basis. So, due to the extraordinary presence of all of the reasons that I listed, this is on an a wp:iar basis. (The rules say that if it is challenged (even if in the lead) it must be cited.) North8000 (talk) 12:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, if there is strong consensus here to IAR then fine, I can accept defeat gracefully, but how is this edit so different from this one? Let's at least be consistent! Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 20:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Please self-revert your last. On this page, we are referring to the introductory paragraphs only when we use the term "lede". The reason we don't have citations in this area is because they are ugly. This is not a problem with the infobox, which is not prose. I am 99% certain that regular editors of this page will agree with me on this matter, because it was something we discussed way back in 2008. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Let's let those other editors weigh in first before we presume to carve out an exception to their (very recent) consensus. I'm not being tendentious, I'm being logically consistent. Come on, now, Scjessey, you and I have gotten along well enough up to now, right? You don't really think my intentions have changed any, do you? I really have no interest in POV pushing or playing politics, I'm here to improve the encyclopedia, nothing less, nothing more. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 23:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I would say that yes, it is superfluous to have a reference for Christian in the infobox.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:34, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

@WM We can have a separate discussion about whether or not the reference in the infobox is appropriate, but you should not have removed that reference without first seeking a consensus. I believe your logic is flawed, because the infobox and the introductory paragraphs are very different things. The whole point of banishing the references from the paragraphs is that they looked particularly ugly, especially with the relatively large number of bluelinks. After not getting your way on the other reference, the removal of the citation from the infobox seemed more like a moody swipe than a logic decision. -- Scjessey (talk) 10:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not moody or emotional about it. I just think more citations would lead to less complaining from the peanut gallery. But those who have spoken up here have made it clear that there is consensus on this article against having any citations in the lead. The infobox is in the lead. The comments above did not say 'we don't want this citation', they said 'we don't want any citations in the lead'. I wasn't being spiteful, I was abiding the consensus that was expressed here. Like I said, if others here disagree with me, I can accept that, but we should at least be internally consistent. Either the consensus is there or it isn't. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be intentionally ignoring what I'm saying, so I'll say it again in as simple a way as I possibly can. The whole point of not having references in the introductory paragraphs of the article is that they look ugly, especially with the number of bluelinks there are. This is not an issue with the infobox, which has completely different formatting. When regular editors refer to the "lede" of an article, they are referring to those introductory paragraphs only, even if the infobox is technically a part of the lede. Here's the important bit: A consensus for no refs in the lede should not be construed as a consensus for no refs in the infobox. Now I personally don't give a shit whether or not the reference for "Christian" in the infobox is there or no; however, it should not be removed on the basis of a consensus that does not exist. It is a separate issue that demands a separate discussion. In summary, a consensus for no citations in the introductory paragraphs exists, but a consensus for no citations in the infobox does not exist. One more thing: we don't care if the "peanut gallery" want to be dicks about Obama's race or religion. We write the best article we can, rather than an article that is dick friendly. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually you are also misrepresenting the cnsensus. There is a consensus that "First African American" does not need a reference in the lead. That is not a consensus for no references in the lead, nor one for no references in the infobox. Most arguments above are arguing based on the triviality of the common knowledge claim, not based on an aesthetical preference for citation free leads. If we want to remove any other reference that requires another consensus. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

But there is a long-standing consensus for no references in the lede. It has been that way for some years now. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Major omissions: Trayvon Martin, Henry Louis Gates

If anywhere, this is a proposal for Presidency of Barack Obama, not on his biography. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This article is full of things that happened on his watch but not enough about Barack. Several years ago, Obama made a big deal, probably justified, about Professor Gates' arrest then held a Gates Beer Summit. Now, Obama is making a big change to his bio by involving himself into a local trial, the Trayvon Martin trial. This should be included in his bio. First he commented that Trayvon was his son. Last week, he made additional comments. Today, he said he is Trayvon. Three separate incidents over months is definitely notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.5.189 (talk) 00:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC) The President has expressed an opinion on the Trayvon Martin story that, given his background, is unsurprising. The President has expressed opinions on many things. Most are not included here, especially the unsurprising ones. HiLo48 (talk) 03:36, 20 July 2013 (UTC) It is very surprising that Obama brought this issue to light on three separate occasions weeks apart.. Besides, surprise is not a criteria for inclusion. Otherwise, we would prohibit any mention of the 2012 election as it was a given than he'd be reelected. The problem may be that some are opposed to Obama so if he has a message, they want to censor it. Those people only want bad things written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.5.189 (talk) 05:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC) This is hilarious. Today, within the space of just a few hours, I've been accused on Wikipedia of being both a fan and an opponent of Obama. Got any more profound insights into my psychological state? HiLo48 (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2013 (UTC) The Henry Louis Gates arrest controversy is on Presidency of Barack Obama, but the shooting of Trayvon Martin is not mentioned on that article or this one. Obama said that if he had a son, he would look like Martin. Months later, he said that 35 years ago, he would have been Martin. What did Obama mean when he said this, considering the fact that George Zimmerman had head injuries that were inflicted by Martin? Him directly speaking about an event which should have been confined to Sanford is notable enough to mention. Why do you think it unsurprising that Obama has publicly talked extensively about Martin, someone he has no connection to and had not heard of prior to his death? Political leaders don't usually talk about individual shooting deaths, which happen every day in the U.S. What do you mean by 'given his background' - Obama isn't from Florida, nor was he suspended from school three times. I don't see in what way Obama could feel a strong affinity with Martin, that he doesn't feel with the thousands of other people shot dead in the U.S. each year, whose deaths he doesn't comment on. I can understand Obama feeling some affinity with Gates, because they are both wealthy, privileged, well-educated people. Martin's life, however, was very different. 94.197.226.116 (talk) 21:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC) That you chose to mention Martin's suspensions from school, something that was always completely irrelevant to the case, highlights your distorted POV on this case. It's not worth trying to discuss a matter rationally with someone coming to a discussion with obvious irrational baggage. HiLo48 (talk) 22:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC) Why is this discussion closed? Are people afraid of what the discussion with reveal? I have a more developed idea. It is a new section on race relations, added to foreign policy and other sections. It is Obama's bio that he chose to inject himself into this matter. If we follow Jethrobot's suggestion of the Presidency article then there is a huge amount of material that should be moved. NO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.38.143 (talk) 06:10, 21 July 2013 (UTC) Discussion continued on Talk:Presidency of Barack Obama. 94.197.250.144 (talk) 15:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC) Feel free to discuss that article. But that does not preclude discussion here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.38.179 (talk)‎ (talk • contribs) 14:03, 21 July 2013‎

good idea..race relations sub section to article

−Any ideas for a draft? Include Gates and Treyvon. Could also include Obama's book but then it wouldn't be race relations, but could be Obama involvement surrounding race. Obama's book is a reliable source. This could be a splendid Wikipedia addition done in a nice way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.38.179 (talk)‎ (talk • contribs) 14:03, 21 July 2013‎

Why would those possibly be relevant to his biography? RNealK (talk) 03:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Because he chooses to make big issues of them, going out of his way to deeply involve himself in what should have been local issues, such as the Gates and Martin cases, magnifying them into national crises and massively increasing their media coverage. No other U.S. President has been involved in racial issues anywhere near as much as Obama. The Henry Louis Gates arrest controversy is mentioned on Presidency of Barack Obama, but the shooting of Trayvon Martin isn't. 94.197.211.200 (talk) 23:11, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting that you think the President should stay silent on matters of race. Here are a couple presidents who sent out the troops. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I have a feeling that JFK had a bit to say on the matter too. Anyway, the Martin case made the national news on Australia's government broadcaster, and on many commercial outlets in Australia, BEFORE Obama's comments. It was never just a local issue, no matter what you would have liked it to be. HiLo48 (talk) 00:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The Henry Louis Gates arrest controversy is mentioned on Presidency of Barack Obama, but the shooting of Trayvon Martin isn't. See, this is why I closed the last discussion. This isn't relevant for Obama's biography, as this comment suggests. It's a waste of everyone's time to discuss this matter on a page where it doesn't belong (certainly not now and probably not anytime soon). I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 16:09, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Religious views

I suggest the words "Obama is a Christian whose religious views developed in his adult life." with "Obama identifies himself as a Christian. His religious views developed in his adult life." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.227.82.117 (talk) 17:24, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Why? --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious why. The proposed change implies Obama wasn't a Christian until later in life, which is a narrative that the right likes to push. The current language is just fine and is supported by the sources. Of course, nobody is born a Christian (or with any other belief). Humans are all born as atheists. Religion only comes to a person through indoctrination by parents/peers. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

False. People are not born atheist then convert to Islam or other religion. Infants are born to the church of milk and pee...their object is drink milk, pee in diaper. No religion, ok. Born as an atheist, speak for yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.38.143 (talk) 06:20, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Obama's religion is United Church of Christ, not sure why omitted. That is a branch of Christianity much as Methodists are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.38.143 (talk) 06:25, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Obama himself acknowledges that although his mother was a Christian, he was not "raised in the church." In fact, this statement is quoted near the end of our Wikipedia article. Try reading it sometime. This is not "a narrative the right likes to push," but an attack point that the left likes to push against the right. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The point is, the proposed text wants to change "Obama is a Christian" to "Obama identifies as a Christian" essentially, which is a subtle nod to the right wing fuckos who think Obama isn't a Christian. But thank you for the pointless troll comment anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Obama's religion is a tool of the right wing AND left wing. The right wing likes Obama to be seen as a Muslim. The left wing is hell bent in stressing that he is not a Muslim, to the point of stressing that he is Christian. The real truth is that he is United Church of Christ denomination. Other presidential articles are that specific, that a certain person is Methodist or Episcopalian, etc. The neutral, non-POV way would not now to either the above right or left wing positions — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephanie Bowman (talk • contribs) 06:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

1. How can it be the left using a tool when all they are doing is pointing out the lying bullshit of the right? (PS:I am not part of the left in America. I'm not even American. I live 12,000 miles away. I just can't stand the constant crap from the poor loser Republicans and Tea Partyers here.)

2. Do you have a reliable source demonstrating that he is of the United Church of Christ denomination? That's what we would need to add your suggestion. HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

First President born outside of Contiguous United States

Is not he first President, who was born outside of Contiguous United States ?? I think it will be right to write about it. 46.71.120.145 (talk) 14:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

It's trivia, not an important or notable detail. The only people who still make any distinction about "the contiguous United States are Texans with an inferiority complex. Tarc (talk) 14:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC) Tvoz

tarc, that is a personal attack. Stop it. I do agree that it should not be there because it is original research unless one can find half a dozen reputable bios mentioning it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.38.143 (talk) 06:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree, Tarc, please strike that, and stop making such attacks. The post does bring up an interesting point. There are a lot of "firsts" in the article. Some of them are obviously relevant, e.g. "first African-American President." But I find the "first Dem to win two elections with a majority since FDR" to be trivial -- rather like the suggestion here.William Jockusch (talk) 04:30, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The two of you can zip it, quite frankly. It was a bit of levity and Texas-poking, nothing more. As far as I'm conceded, this request is denied and closed. Tarc (talk) 04:38, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, this sort of thing is getting out of hand. Next it will be first President born in the '60s or something. Also, no opportunity to bash Texas should be wasted. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:54, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Detroit bankruptcy

Hungarian IP proxy troll is back, nothing more. WP:DENY. Tarc (talk) 12:31, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
We should add this from the above article " Detroit is the largest city by population in the history of the United States to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy, more than twice as large as Stockton, California, which filed in 2012. White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said, during a press conference in July, that he knew of no plans by President Obama to bail out the Detroit city government similar to the bailouts in recent years of Detroit-area automakers General Motors and Chrysler.". I'm not surprised that this is not mentioned, the usual double standard. But keep in mind that you should write an online encyclopedia, not a White House formal letter. The event is significant and historical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.83.28.51 (talk) 21:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC) Yes, the reason it's not mentioned is because the Detroit bankruptcy, while significant in US history, isn't significant to President Obama's biography; however, I think you are already well aware of this. That being said, if you can explain why you think this event is relevant to President Obama's life at this present time, feel free to do so. Also, as you've been told countless times, please sign your posts. Acalamari 21:59, 24 July 2013 (UTC) Even in the above article his name mentioned 3 times. And your wording is raising many red flags for me, it looks like Obama is responsible for nothing what is going in US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.83.28.51 (talk) 00:27, 25 July 2013 (UTC) There is nothing wrong with my wording and I've suggested no such thing; besides, the various threads that you start seem to imply that President Obama is responsible for everything that happens in the US. The amount of times his name is mentioned in a particular article does not automatically mean that its topic has to be covered here; unless the Detroit bankruptcy affects him and/or his presidency, it's not going to get mentioned in this article, and again, I think you're already well-aware of this. Acalamari 08:55, 25 July 2013 (UTC) It's not just biographically irrelevant, it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Obama, the Obama administration, the White House, or the Federal Government. It doesn't belong in any Obama-related article at this time. It's a matter for Detroit's mayor and Michigan's governor. The "double standard" comment is pure trolling. Perhaps the IP editor can introduce this to the Mitt Romney article, since he famously said "let Detroit go bankrupt." -- Scjessey (talk) 22:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC) This topic is not relevant to this biographical article. Taroaldo ✉ 08:56, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Mulit-Racial

Things like this wouldn't happen if everyone bothered to read. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 19:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
It's interesting how Wikipedia calls Obama "African American" but actress Jennifer Beals "multi racial" when she has a black father and white mother just as Obama did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.81.77.5 (talk) 23:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC) Given that it's so interesting you might want to contemplate why. A couple clues. First, the point is that Obama is the first African American US President. Jennifer Beals isn't the first anything, except perhaps the first person to popularize the torn sweatshirt look. Also, while presumably true, the claim is not properly sourced in the Jennifer Beals article as to its relevance and due weight to her life. In that article the race mention is referring to her family ancestry and her personal upbringing; in this one it refers to the political significance for America that it elected a President of black African ancestry. Please see the FAQ section above for some discussion of why it is mentioned in this way in the article. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC) If what was changed on the Obama article, I am sure it would be reverted back to say he is the first African American President though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.81.77.5 (talk) 01:33, 28 July 2013 (UTC) FAQ!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.128.246.133 (talk) 11:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC) Barack Obama is African American, with an African father (Kenya) and and American mother (Kansas). He is by design a First generation African American which is of far more import to the biracial aspect. The politics or even the significance for America is irrelevant, those are the facts. If it were the case that his father had been African American and his mother was European American, then the case could be made for him being bi-racial. Those are the facts. Jarunasax (talk) 19:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Pope and Obama are in the same boat

Hungarian proxy troll again. Going forward, I need to start remembering to look at IP info befor bothering to respond to them. Tarc (talk) 18:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
My suggestion for the article: Pope Francis is the first modern pope and Obama is the first US president who actively supports gay people. Pope said on an aeroplane, that "If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?" (http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2013/07/29/intl-pope-no-judgment-chance-pkg.cnn) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.2.203 (talk) 00:39, 30 July 2013 (UTC) The Pope is irrelevant to Obama's autobiographical article. HiLo48 (talk) 00:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC) Mr. IP user, like the drive-by media, you completely misinterpret what the Pope had to say on this matter. All the he said was a basic reiteration of Catholic teachings, in that if a man is seeking God in his heart then it not for the Pope to judge his soul. In Catholic dogma, we are all born sinners, and if a gay man carries his homosexual beliefs (he can't carry the deed/act, as all priests take vows of celibacy) in his heart to the end, it will be for God to judge, not Francis. Now, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with Obama and his support for same-sex marriage though, so can we move along? Tarc (talk) 01:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC) Mr Bergoglio also said he was against the gay lobby. WTF is the gay lobby?? Groups of homosexuals trying to convert people? Sounds like Bergoglio spent too much time reading Uganda news. Sorry, had to vent. That said, this has absolutely nothing to do with Obama so this thread should be closed. Regards. Gaba (talk) 11:41, 30 July 2013 (UTC) I agree, even if the Pope did come out in support of homosexuality independently of Obama it would still not be relevant for this article.--174.93.163.70 (talk) 18:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Grammar

Numerous quotes on the page have a quotation mark followed by a period. In American English, periods go inside of quotation marks. Fix this.

I agree with you. MOS:LQ doesn't, unfortunately. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:09, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

"So-called logical punctuation is in fact more...logical!", he said - Wikidemon (talk) 22:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Why does the Wikipedia manual of style deviate from both the Chicago Manual of Style and AP Style?

No good reason. I don't make these rules, I just... well, you know the rest. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 08:54, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Controversy

This is getting off-topic and, surprise surprise, there's no consensus to add a controversy section. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Every single human being with a Wiki page has a section on Controversy. How has his campaign team managed to prevent all attempts at making one for him ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Universe (talk • contribs) 02:25, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Counterpoint: George_W._Bush. Anything else? --NeilN talk to me 02:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Policy discourages "controversy" sections and hardly any GA or FA quality articles have them.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:21, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Controversy sections attract POV content, which we can't accept. They are usually demanded by people who don't like the subject, so that they can add something negative about the person. THAT'S POV editing. HiLo48 (talk) 04:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Controversy sections are shit magnets. They attract shitty POV and shitty POV pushers. -- Scjessey (talk) 10:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC) You´re wrong. Very. And they gave us all jobs in his administration. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:22, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Hey, I have an idea, let's have a sixth person jump in here, getting even more aggressive and downright vulgar! --OuroborosCobra (talk) 13:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Abolition of the death penalty

Marijuana and same-sex marriage legalized in several states, and is going to abolish the death penalty in several states?--Kaiyr (talk) 08:06, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you would think the independent acts of states have anything to do with Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

war crimes

why no reference to the well established fact that obama is, or at least leads, the world leaders in violations of human rights, invasions, and undermining of other countries, war crimes, torture, drone killings, mass murder, violations of privacy, etc..

compare total absence of all that in this article, with articles here on non western leaders, wherein some of their human rights violating actions(even merely alleged ones) are presented in full.

why this racist double standard? is wikipedia just another propgnad arm of usa government? it is as long as obama's well established human right violations are ignored in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.83.172 (talk) 12:47, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your anti-Obama screed. This article reflects what reliable sources have said about the subject, with each topic given proper weight according to how much coverage it has received in those reliable sources. Since there is so much material about the subject, the article is written in summary style with much of the specifics contained within sub-articles. Some of the things you have mentioned, such as issues concerning drone strikes and privacy, can be found in one or more of those sub articles. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:58, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it's more of an anti-US/anti-West rant. Probably doesn't really belong here, but that seems SSDD. Dave Dial (talk) 02:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

African American?

Did I miss something, or isn't Obama bi-racial? His mother Caucasian, his father African = mixed race, bi-racial etc., but African American?? How is this the correct term?Releere (talk) 03:03, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Please see FAQ #2 above. Acroterion (talk) 03:06, 25 August 2013 (

Acroterion has given the correct response here, but I'm going to follow up on something that bothers me every time this question arises. The question always seems based on a belief that there is some sort of pure African American race. Knowing what white slaves owners are well known to have done at times with the white slave girls, that seems impossible. Are those who ask the question living in some sort of false reality? Or is there another explanation? HiLo48 (talk) 03:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

My question is clearly answered below. A false reality. HiLo48 (talk) 07:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Correct he is bi-racial based on the following factoid an African American is defined as having one generation of both parental heritage minimum to be of the same ethnicity to qualify as African American, Hispanic, Caucasian, or any other such ethnicity. When an individual born does not meet this one generation minimum requirement, IE the parents are of verifying different ethnicities, then said individual is bi-racial. Re -Edit the Wiki to state correctly for the record that Barak Obama is the first bi-racial president, not African American.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.109.161.176 (talk • contribs) 21:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

No. Re read FAQ#2 as suggested above. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

When did those new fangled racial requirements you are talking about substitute the one drop rule? User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Not sure where the IP user got the "factoid" that "an African American is defined as having one generation of both parental heritage minimum to be of the same ethnicity to qualify as African American". I can't seem to find to find that defintion in any dictionary or legal definition of the term. FWIW, however, even if such a "factoid" were applicable, the recent discovery that Obama is a descendent of the slave John Punch from his mother's side of the family - and thus has African lineage from both parents - would appear to confirm that Obama meets the supposed requirement of "having one generation of both parental heritage minimum to be of the same ethnicity".--JayJasper (talk) 20:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Drone attacks

I've reverted edits that included an enormous section on drone attacks on the basis of WP:WEIGHT. The section would be better situated in Presidency of Barack Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I shortened it a bit and placed it there. However, internationally the drone attacks have attracted a lot of media attention and UN attention. So I definitely think it should be mentioned at this page as well. Is three-four sentences reasonable? Mange01 (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

While it has indeed attracted a lot of attention, it isn't really as biographically significant as you seem to think it is. I would recommend that you put some suggested text here, and then try to build a consensus for inclusion amongst the editors of this page. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

we're not putting a 'drones' section in the obama article. no 'controversies' section either. cheers. Cramyourspam (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• I wouldn't be opposed to a mention of the issue with a link to one or both related articles, as long as it is concise and NPOV. I think the section you've added to the POTUS article is fine, for the most part. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree, drones have received enough attention that a mention is warranted. One paragraph would be about right IMO.William Jockusch (talk) 02:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Syrian civil war

We're very close to the start of the Nobel peace prize winner Obama's new war, so please open a new section in foreign policy with Syrian civil war title and add to that: My suggestion for the main article is the following: "S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel told the BBC that U.S. forces are "ready to go" if ordered to strike Syria by President Barack Obama (ref. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/27/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews) Jay Carney reiterated that President Barack Obama had yet to make a final decision on how to respond to what U.S. officials characterize as the worst chemical weapons attack since former Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein launched a poison gas attack that killed thousands of Kurds in 1988. For almost two years, Obama has avoided direct military involvement in Syria's civil war, only escalating aid to rebel fighters in June after suspected smaller-scale chemical weapons attacks by Syrian government forces. (ref. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/27/politics/us-syria/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 ) VénólánzsahleF (talk) 23:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

See WP:CRYSTAL. We have no idea what might happen or what Obama's involvement will be. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd have to say that if an airstrike or, god forbid, boots on the ground hit Syria, a sub-section of the Foreign Policy header will be warranted. Have o wait and see. Tarc (talk) 03:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, bringing up the Nobel Peace Prize has nothing to do with it, since the prize doesn't behold anyone to future actions and isn't only given to people who have never been involved in wars, nor is it requested or applied for by the recipients. It's a non-sequitur. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with OC here. Please review WP:SYNTH. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Even if the US begins any sort of military action in Syria, it should first need to be introduced in Presidency of Barack Obama before being summarized here. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

We have new information: "We do not believe that, given the delivery systems, using rockets, that the opposition could have carried out these attacks. We have concluded that the Syrian government in fact carried these out," Obama told "NewsHour." "And if that's so, then there need to be international consequences," the president added. (ref. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/28/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 )

Sorry, but I see that you are using double standard here, when you still write zero words about Syria. For example on GW Bush's article on wikipedia your favourite word is weapon, and you write that: "In 2003, Bush then launched the invasion of Iraq, searching for Weapons of Mass Destruction, which he described as being part of the War on Terrorism.[230] Those invasions led to the toppling of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and the removal of Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq." (...) "In the latter half of 2002, CIA reports contained assertions of Saddam Hussein's intent of reconstituting nuclear weapons programs, not properly accounting for Iraqi biological and chemical weapons, and that some Iraqi missiles had a range greater than allowed by the UN sanctions.[259][260] Contentions that the Bush Administration manipulated or exaggerated the threat and evidence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities would eventually become a major point of criticism for the president.[261][262]"

I see a huge similarity between the two cases. VénólánzsahleF (talk) 03:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. We should have "Obama then launched the invasion of Syria..." Oh wait, he hasn't done anything yet? Never mind. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

It isn't true that he done nothing, Obama actively helps the syrian rebel groups with arms, just visit Syrian civil war: "On 13 June, a government official states that the Obama administration, after days of high-level meetings, has approved providing lethal arms to the Supreme Military Council (SMC).[445] The SMC is a rebel command structure that includes representatives from most major rebel groups, and excludes the Islamic extremist elements.[446] The decision was made shortly after the administration concluded that the Assad government used chemical weapons on opposition forces, thus crossing the "red line" drew by Obama earlier in 2012.[447] The arms will include small arms and ammunition, and possibly anti-tank weapons." VénólánzsahleF (talk) 06:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but to date this is simply not a significant enough biographical event to be included here. It's barely significant enough for Presidency of Barack Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The USA has uniformed troops on duty in over 100 countries. Emphasising just one of these simply because the news is covering it today is undue. Go and find out what the US is doing in those other 100 countries, and tell us how this compares on a long term basis. HiLo48 (talk) 21:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Why No Edit Option?

Why No Edit Option for Barack Obama? Wikipedia pro-Obama bias perchance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.231.48 (talk) 11:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Not at all. The article is semi-protected because it attracts a lot of vandals. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

You can submit an edit request if you have a legitimate suggestion for improving the article.--BobfromtheBeltway (talk) 21:20, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

It should also be noted many articles about Republicans are also protected in the same mannor (John McCain, Mitt Romney, George W. Bush etc) so this is not a special case for Obama by any means.--64.229.165.126 (talk) 21:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

That's right. Articles of important political figures are often protected because they attract vandals. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a bias in favor of Obama.75.221.214.218 (talk) 15:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

You can consider Creating an account and then you should probably been able to edit it! Thanks -- L o g X 15:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Labor force participation rate

Current

Proposed

In this edit, Eustress has updated the unemployment chart and added Labor Force Participation Rate (LFPR) data. I do not believe this statistic is necessary, and presenting such a small dataset is highly misleading in any case. LFPR fluctuates considerably, as can be seen here. Has LFBR received significant enough attention in reliable sources to be given coverage here? I think not. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

When this series of charts was originally created, we provided the UR and the Net Change since one statistic by itself can be misleading. Adding the LFPR provides even greater value to readers. Regarding your concern for fluctuation, Scjessey, how did you create your LFPR chart? I created one (here; I input years into DOL's LFPR interface at http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet) over the same time period that you used (1970-present) and it shows a very different picture. Regarding notability, I've inserted content into the article supported by reliable sources. I hope you will change your mind and support this enhanced image. —Eustress ^talk 02:30, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I created the chart by going to this page and then changing the start year to an earlier one. I can see now that I'm looking at the wrong thing. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and have undone the change. Not only should it not be included, the chart should be updated to include the previous two years of data to show the beginning of the recession. Which was also something that the editor who made the most recent change refused to include. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 19:04, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

We've discussed the scope issue previously on talk. Per WP:PERTINENCE, we only include data for the period of time pertinent to this article's subject. If readers want context, that can easily click through the caption wikilinks to read further about unemployment rate or labor force participation rate. —Eustress ^talk 02:30, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

But labor force participation rate is far more loosely tied to economic performance than unemployment rate, and because it is not given much representation in reliable sources it should be presented in this article. In fact, if you want to offer "greater value to readers", the charts you make should provide the context of the previous administration with the two administrations being in a different color or something. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Revert?

Eustress reverted, seeming to think that more sourcing would help. It doesn't. I've removed the content again. HiLo48 (talk) 02:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Please review the page history. I added new text, I didn't re-insert the image -- that is being discussed above. —Eustress ^talk 02:30, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Hold off on Syria

On the other hand, this is such a complex topic that nothing should be done for 30 days. Stephanie Bowman (talk) 20:51, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The arbitrary 30 days specified from the arbitrary date of "today is when the discussion on this page started" being based upon what? The crisis in Syria, and this administration's response to it, has gone on for far more than 30 days as it is. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Syria is a big test for Wikipedia and Obama

There is no section on Syria, which some political analyst consider President Obama's biggest crisis. This is also a good test for Wikipedia.

The following ground rules should apply. 1. We must write the section or wikipedia is biased in choosing major events. 2. We must write the section in the perspective of Obama's biography, not in the perspective of world history, in general. Specifically, Obama chose the red line term and chose WMD as the criteria, not genocide by machine guns. The confounding factor with his impending loss of the congressional vote is relevant as well as the Kerry gaffe that might save mankind, the ones that the Russians exploited. 3. There are partisans all over Wikipedia, Republicans, Tea Parties, Democrats, Blue Dog Democrats, Pro government Syrians, etc. I disclose that I am a registered Democrat.

We should begin a draft here. This is a start. It is far from the final version.

Obama used the term red line saying the Syrian government must not use chemicals weapons. He alleges that they did on August 21, which some claim were stolen nerve gas used by alqaeda. Obama threatened to attack Syria. He claimed he did not need congressional approval for the limited attack but sought it. There was significant bipartisan opposition to his plan. An agreement with the Russians were made after they made a proposal based on verbal gaffe by Kerry, who made a rhetorical comment to the press about Syria, a comment that was disavowed by the US government.

END OF FIRST CRAPPY DRAFT. It would be criminal if Wikipedia just summed it up like..n September, Obama got Syria to disarm of WMD.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephanie Bowman (talk • contribs) 14:27, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Why should this information be in this biography of the man, and not in the Presidency of Barack Obama article? RNealK (talk) 07:06, 18 September 2013 (UTC)