Talk:Bob Marley/Archive 3

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Merger proposal

I propose that Bob Marley Terror Single be merged into Bob Marley. I think that the content in the Terror article can easily be explained in the context of Bob Marley, and the Bob Marley article is of a reasonable size in which the merging of Terror will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. The Terror article is just two short paragraphs and contains no references. Dave
Please help!
18:14, 16 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djkernen (talk • contribs)

It certainly would fit in with the main BM article, if it had any citations to its claims.--Chimino (talk) 05:54, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

In its current state it can't be merged as it doesn't have any references. The article itself should be deleted outright.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 00:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Discography

Does anyone have any ide why what i consider to be the greatest Bob MarlEy and the Wailers album BABYLON BY BUS is not mentioned in the discography having been released in 1978? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.4.173.130 (talk) 19:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

You can add it if you want, but it is not mandatory to do that. Regards.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫T 20:51, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Right now there only seem to be his studio albums listed, perhaps it shouls stay so?--Chimino (talk) 23:22, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Ska, really?

I would like to discuss the following section from the Wikipedia Section:

"He was the rhythm guitarist and lead singer for the ska, rocksteady and reggae band Bob Marley & The Wailers (1963–1981)."

First, I would like to remove any doubt regarding my appreciation, love and respect for Bob Marley and Reggae. Bob Marley had the soul, the skill, the wisdom to write music addressing political and cultural issues largely still existing--to a much lesser extent. His, "Redemption Song," is one of the most passionate, beautiful and elegant pieces of music I have ever heard. While his music became a commercial success, Bob Marley's primary goal was to spread awareness an understanding regarding the struggles of freedom against inhumanity.

I find the inclusion of, "ska," associated with Bob Marley highly offensive. Also, I find the article regarding ska in general to consist of historical revisionism. Ska, gained popularity in the nineties. In general, the music of the nineties sucked. Consequently, ska was able to gain an audience. Ska is characterized by the combination of a swing ensemble with the slower beats of the Reggae and a predominately white band. Ska is nothing more than mainstream, white, bastardization of the Reggae music.

I hope people do not find it to offensive when I write: white people do not have the soul for Reggae. Why? There is no white struggle; there can be no white Reggae. Consequently, ska appeals to middle class white suburbanites who like the sound of Reggae but cannot relate to the soul of Reggae. Ultimately, ska is a horrendous form of music.

For those who understand analogy: Ska is to Reggae as The Monkeys are to The Beatles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.31.144 (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Putting aside your racist comments for a moment, you really should read up on the history of Jamaican music as you clearly don't understand what was going on during the 1960s.--Michig (talk) 17:15, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

The person question the inclusion of ska in refernce to Bob Marley and the Wailers is clearly confused and seems to hae little knbowledge of the history of The Wailers. What kind of music do you think One LOve is, Simmer Down,etc. It is ska. Not just my opnion but fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Windmiller (talk • contribs) 20:40, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Did Bob Marley have Jewish ancestry?

http://www.bobmarleymagazine.com/2003/06/interview-with-heather-marley/--92.238.167.69 (talk) 06:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

which is broken--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 14:08, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

http://www.bobmarleymagazine.com/2003/06/interview-with-heather-marley/ Interesting, but would require verification to be added to the article.--Chimino (talk) 08:13, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Bob marley Bob Marley was born on (6th February 1945 11th may 1981) Marley was born in a place which was a little village in Saint Ann Parish, Jamaica. His father was Norval Sinclair Marley, he was a white Jamaican who had been born in 1895 and had British parents from Sussex. Norval was a marine officer and later achieved the position o captain when he married Cedella Booker, a little girl of only 18 years of age, she, would later, become Bob Marley’s mother. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.172.135.111 (talk) 20:25, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Bob marley's father

After reading this article http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/apr/08/bob-marley-life-documentary-macdonald

it would appear that Bob Marley's father lied about being a marine

77.101.8.18 (talk) 02:39, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Dip on vs. Deh pon

Regarding quote number 11, the interviewers got the language wrong. In the Jamaican language, one would not be saying "dip on" but "deh pon". Basically, he's using the present form of the verb 'to be' with the preposition 'on'. But in the Jamaican language the preposition 'on' becomes 'deh pon', in the present tense. (direct translation would be "There upon", which makes no sense now but in the 1700s under slavery...it stuck...it's a creole afterall). So I realize it's a direct quote but for the purpose of accuracy can you please put his actual words in parentheses at least? Preferably, though It would look something like this: "...me don't deh pon nobody side. Me don't deh pon the black man's side nor the white man's side. Me deh pon God's side..." An English translation would be, "I'm not on anybody's side. I'm not on the black man's side nor on the white man's side. I'm on God's side." Bottom line is 'dip on' is wrong. 118.39.74.201 (talk) 17:40, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I know you are quite correct about the etymological origin of the Jamaican phrase 'deh pon' going back to the English words '(to be) there' and 'upon', and NOT 'dip' 'on', but still I wonder if 'dip on' isn't a fair modern spelling of this phrase, seems to me I have seen it spelled that way in print in more than a few places...? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:08, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I've never seen it as "dip on", and I agree it should be changed.--Chimino (talk) 00:22, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for making the change. Eulenspiegel if you watch the new Bob Marley Documentary, you will see that they use the same quote there with the more accurate phrase deh pon. With respect, I wholeheartedly disagree that dip on could be considered a fair modern spelling. It changes the meaning and quite frankly a quote should indicate what a person says, not what publishers who essentially speak a different language interpret. 118.39.74.201 (talk) 22:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Yvette Acoustic Tapes / Eleanor Rigby Tapes / Any-Off-Record-Credit

Really?

Nobody referring to the old Eleanor Rigby or Yvette Tapes?

How come?

Just type it in on Youtube, get the rythm, google the text and there you've got another 200 lines of Wikipedia comments for USEFUL common knowledge!

I certainly hope someone gets this.

M — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.171.68 (talk) 01:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

We should change the paragraph in Legacy that begins "Internationally, Marley’s message also continues to..."

To reflect the fact that there is no longer a sacred flame burning for him at Sydney's Victoria park. This is a direct rip from Hombach's book in 2010 and it's no longer true.

Perhaps change it to a sacred flame "once burnt". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.110.243 (talk) 11:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Fix dead link

Hello,

Reference number 16 has a dead link. I tried to fix it, but the page is semi-protected.

It links to an old biography page I wrote: http://www.vitalspot.com/TheWailers/Biography.html

You can find that biography at the bottom of this page: http://vitalspot.blogspot.com/p/wailers.html

Greetings,

--CesarDaniel78 (talk) 14:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Football

Hi, as I understand it, Marley was a keen football fan, and a keen player, but there seems to be only one tangential mention of football here in the part about his illness. Perhaps this merits a sentence or two somewhere, perhaps under "Personal life"? 86.160.218.68 (talk) 03:13, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Sources pal?08:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.12.183.130 (talk)

He was a massive fan of football. A good friend of his was ALAN 'Skill' Cole who was a pro footballer and one of Jamaica's most high profile. The only reason it seems to have been mentioned is that due to an injury during a tackle with Danny Baker, his toe got infected. Cancer grew and as Rastas don't believe in amputation he died as a result of its spreading :(

They played football on a daily basis at 56 Hope Road and on tour 86.177.26.176 (talk) 12:09, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 April 2012

I would like to edit this because i have lots of information about him...

Maceyisawesosme (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Not done: This template is for suggesting specific edits. If you'd like to edit the page yourself, you only need to wait to become autoconfirmed. --Tyrannus Mundi (talk) 22:33, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I would like to suggest a specific edit: the page says that Bob Marley was buried with his red stratocaster guitar, and while that is true, apparently, it omits the fact that he was also buried with a bible open to Psalm 23 and a stalk of marijuana. http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/apr/24/bob-marley-funeral-richard-williams . I have also read before that he was buried with a soccer ball as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.211.174.229 (talk) 19:06, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Locked article, nothing to do.08:51, 19 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.12.183.130 (talk)

Afro-Jamaican = US term

"Afro-Jamaican" is a US term, paralleling "Afro-American", and not one you will hear in Jamaica. If you search on the term most references are to a book on Jamaican dialect and a musician called Carlos Malcolm. Wikipedia has an entry "Jamaicans of African Ancestry" and this term, although lengthy, is preferable, as it far better describes the feeling of most people in Jamaica that they are Jamaicans first regardless of ancestry. I ask the experienced editors here to consider avoiding "Afro-Jamaican", and thank you all for your work. Maxread1957 (talk) 19:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Although you made a point that "most people in Jamaica" feel they are "Jamaicans first regardless of ancestry", I believe this is ironically a point of counterdistinction from "most people" among the Rastafari community there (of which Bob was a member), who would insist they are Africans first regardless of where they live. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:26, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

is "Black Survivor" a song?

"Black Survivor" is mentioned in the life and career section, I was not aware that was a song. Is this perhaps the song "Survival" off of the album with the same name? UselessToRemain (talk) 15:49, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no Black Survivor. You refer to part of a refrain from the stated, Survival from the album also called Survival from 79 86.177.26.176 (talk) 12:13, 10 August 2012 (UTC)V

^ Didn't think so. It's fixed now. UselessToRemain (talk) 00:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Legacy

"Introduction" into the Hall of Fame? Or "induction"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.100.48.2 (talk) 04:08, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Good catch. So corrected. Gobōnobō ^{+ c} 05:35, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Correction to one item in the bibliography

The last item in the Marley bibliography is listed as:

Middleton, J. Richard (2000). Religion, culture, and tradition in the Caribbean: Identity and Subversion in Babylon: Strategies for "Resisting Against the System" in music of Bob Marley and the Wailers. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 0-312-23242-X

However, this isn't correct. As the author, I can verify that this is an article in a book; second, the publisher is incorrect. It should be:

Middleton, J. Richard (2000). "Identity and Subversion in Babylon: Strategies for 'Resisting Against the System' in music of Bob Marley and the Wailers." In Religion, Culture and Tradition in the Caribbean, ed. by Hemchand Gossai and Nathaniel Samuel Murrell. New York: St. Martin’s Press. ISBN 978-0312232429

J. Richard Middleton

 Done Gobōnobō ^{+ c} 05:35, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 29 December 2012

Bob Marley's birth name is really Robert Nesta Marley. However it is reversed on this webpage. Destinysincere (talk) 19:47, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.. The 1st section says there was a mix up by a passport guy. It may end up as both being acceptable if the sources clash. If you go back in the archives it may have found consensus to stay as it is now.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Bob's Guitar

The mention and picture - which I see as blatant advertising - of Bob's guitar as being an Epiphone and the picture of a tribute guitar both need removed. A Gibson Les Paul Special was Bob's primary guitar and the one with which he is associated.

WPdia really needs to take a stronger stand and action against crap being inserted into pages just for advertising purposes. I would have taken it out of this page, but the page is locked for some reason. 74.40.80.161 (talk) 23:19, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I removed the unsourced statement but left the image. The few pictures I found on the net show him playing the Gibson. The one in the image looks like it hasn't seen much use. There may be sources out there to back up his preferred use of the Gibson--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/ProductSpotlight/GearAndInstruments/15-Iconic-Les-Paul-Players/ Gibson makes both and their site says it was the Les Paul.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

TY for removing the statement, but the picture also needs removed, and those sources for removal are easy to find:

http://www.epiphone.com/news-features/news/2003/epiphone-bob-marley-tribute-guitar-captures-reggae.aspx

"The Bob Marley Commemorative Les Paul Special from Epiphone captures the essence of the pioneer reggae artist and his music. The new limited edition guitar features an image of Marley's face on the body of the guitar, plus fingerboard inlays in the colors of the Jamaican flag and "One Love" on the headstock. It is built on the same solidbody design as Marley's personal Gibson Les Paul Special."

"His original, early-'70s Les Paul Special guitar is on display at the Bob Marley Museum in Kingston, Jamaica."

That picture and the statement were inserted to sell the Epiphone - blatant advertising. I'd REALLY like WPdia to start taking a hard-line stance against this sort of page vandalism. 74.40.80.161 (talk) 22:35, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

 Done. If someone adds it back then there may be discussion on it. I feel a music/guitar group should decide.--Canoe1967 (talk) 23:19, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

father' death

on this page it says his father died in 1955 when he was 10. on norval marley's page it says he died in 1957 when he was around 12. which one is it 204.235.217.177 (talk) 21:55, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Jewish ancestry

On the page History of the Jews in Jamaica it lists Bob Marley as having a Jewish grandmother. I presume his Jewish heritage comes from his paternal side, thus Marley's father was half Jewish. I think, if this is legitimate, it should be listed on both his father's and Marley's page. TomUSA 00:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, someone added the category "Jews in the African diaspora" which was wrong, as he was not Jewish. I suppose you could create a category of "Jamaicans of Jewish descent" if you so chose, even though "Jewish" is neither a nationality nor race.--Chimino (talk) 03:16, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

There are sources that note that his father was not a Caucasian, but a Syrian Jew, and his grandmother Jewish. [1]. Perhaps we should note that their ethnicity are disputed. Currently the claim that he was white English-Jamaican is cited by only one source. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 11:24, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, the Marley family originates in Anglo-Norman and Norman nobility and the line picked up some some Syrian blood through intermarriage at the time of the Crusades, but that hardly makes him a Syrian Jew! All Bob Marley's biographers call his father white and English. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:15, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I guess basically what I'm saying is that if his grandmother was Jewish, then Bob's father was half-Jewish on his maternal side, making Bob a quarter Jewish. I find it quite interesting that we can trace his paternal lineage all the way back to the Crusades, especially something as specific as Anglo-Norman and Syrian. But if this is proven, I think it should be added to the page in the "Early life" section, as we already cite that his father was English and his mother an African Jamaican. But if his grandmother isn't really Jewish, and if Marley had any Jewish ancestors they would only be found in the Middle Ages period, then it isn't really worth citing, and the part of the History of the Jews in Jamaica page that says Marley's grandmother was Jewish should be removed. I'm just asking if anyone knows whether this is factual or not. TomUSA 05:56, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Spelling error.

"The attempt on his life was thought to have been politically motivated, as many felt the concert was really a support rally for Manley. (unsigned)

Where is the spelling error? Manley was a Jamaican politician, not a misspelling for "Marley". Keep studying! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Just some suggestions:

"Marley's music was heavily influenced by the social issues of his homeland, and he is considered to have given voice to the specific political and cultural nexus of Jamaica."

Marley's music was heavily influenced by the social issues of his homeland; he is considered to have given voice to the specific political and cultural nexus of Jamaica.

"Bob's mother had a daughter with Bunny's father, who was younger sister to both of them."

Bob's mother had a daughter with Bunny's father, who was the youngest sibling.

"In 1966, Marley married Rita Anderson, and moved near his mother's residence in Wilmington, Delaware in the United States for a short time, during which he worked as a DuPont lab assistant and on the assembly line at a Chrysler plant, under the alias Donald"

In 1966, Marley married Rita Anderson, and moved near his mother's residence in Wilmington, Delaware in the United States for a short time, during that time he worked as a DuPont lab assistant and on the assembly line at a Chrysler plant, under the alias Donald

"Marley and Perry split after a dispute regarding the assignment of recording rights, but they would remain friends and work together again."

Marley and Perry split after a dispute regarding the assignment of recording rights, however they remained friends and work together again.

"Broke, the Wailers became stranded in London."

Unable to financially support, the Wailers became stranded in London.

Bunny backstory copyedit request

Marley met Neville Livingston (later changed to Bunny Wailer) in Nine Mile because Bob's mother had a daughter with Bunny's father, younger sister to both of them and also had a relationship with him.[2]

Some TLC? The Bunny Wailer page says: [3]

Bunny Wailer and Bob Marley were raised in the same household as stepbrothers. Bunny's father Thaddeus "Toddy" Livingston lived with Bob Marley's mother Cedella Booker and had a daughter with her named Pearl Livingston.

Something more along those lines?

Thanks, 86.164.171.247 (talk) 11:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Bob Marley's birth name

Various websites, such as IMDb, BobMarley.com, and BBC state that Bob Marley was born "Robert Nesta Marley", not "Nesta Robert Marley", therefore I will change the name but leave this section as "Nesta Robert Marley", just as in this section of Damian Marley's biography it states that his birth name was Damien, but later changed. LatinWolf (talk) 04:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

A thing that could be improved.

I think that it should say how Bob Marley changed reggae. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.69.128 (talk) 17:56, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Flow - "Final years and death"

The "Final years and death" section starts with "In July 1977, Marley was found to have a type of malignant melanoma under the nail of one of his toes. Contrary to urban legend, this lesion was not primarily caused by an injury during a football match in that year, but was instead a symptom of the already existing cancer." This appears to be the first mention of cancer in the article. Someting is missing. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree and urge you to make that edit. I have a problem trying to understand the relevance of the band Inner Circle being considered as an opening act. I'd like to know who would complain if I excised this remark. It sounds like it was written by someone in Inner Circle :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justcary (talk • contribs) 20:57, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 8 May 2013

Change "Nesta Robert Marley" to "Robert Nesta Marley" as that was his birth name, verified by the official website dedicated to him: http://www.bobmarley.com/life_and_legacy_early_life.php 190.219.252.225 (talk) 15:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Why do several of his more detailed biographers state the opposite? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Seems well-sourced at the current version, whether your source is "official" or not. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 15:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 June 2013

I would like to change: Marley met Neville Livingston (later changed to Bunny Wailer) in Nine Mile. Bob's mother had a daughter with Bunny's father, who was younger sister to both of them. Bob and Bunny also had a relationship. Marley and Livingston started to play music together while he was still at elementary school. --to-- Marley met Neville Livingston (a name that was later changed to Bunny Wailer) in Nine Mile. Bob's mother had a daughter with Bunny's father, who was a younger sister to both Bob and Bunny. Marley and Livingston had had something in common: they both started to play music together while Marley was still at elementary school. Paulvinogradski (talk) 08:51, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Done. Your wording seems clearer. Rivertorch (talk) 20:55, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 June 2013: in "Film adaptations" section

His song Ganja Gun is used in 2013 Malayalam film Honey Bee. Hari.edamana (talk) 04:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Can you show that this is really a Bob Marley song? I haven't heard of it. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.

A search indicates that the song may also be known as "Ganja Ganja" (the lyrics containing "Ganja gun" towards the end), but that it may have been an unreleased song which was only performed on tour.

I can't properly confirm that with a source, but that doesn't really matter at this point, because we would also need a reliable source to show that it was used in this movie, and consensus that such use is notable enough to mention in this article. Please feel free to reactivate this request if you can provide source(s) and further details. Thank you. Begoon ^talk 11:44, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

A crustacean species of Ostracoda was named for Bob Marley in 1993. It is found in Jamaica.

I would like Kornickeria marleyi to be added to the list of crustacean species named for Bob Marley. It was collected in 1988 from Discovery Bay and other locations in Jamaica, and was formally described in 1993 by Anne Cohen and James Morin.

Reference for the article in which the species is described: The cypridinid copulatory limb and a new genus Kornickeria (Ostracoda: Myodocopida) with four new species of bioluminescent ostracods from the Caribbean Authors: Cohen, Anne & Morin, James Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, Volume 108, issue 1 (May 1993), p. 23 - 84.

Etorre11 (talk) 06:05, 27 June 2013 (UTC)etorre11

Edit request on 7 July 2013

"Rolling Stones ranked Marley as the 11th greatest artist of all-time". This links to the entry on the Rolling Stones. While I am sure they have a lot of respect for Bob Marley, the link should be to Rolling Stone Magazine. 198.45.196.124 (talk) 02:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Got it, thanks... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 August 2013

The following line should be removed: "Marley had another son with Raphie Munroe, Fabian, who is a few months older than Ziggy.[45]"

Reason for removal: The article cited in support of this "fact" does not provide a reliable source. All the article provides is a quote from Fabian Marley who proclaims himself to be the eldest son of Bob Marley. No other sources recognize Fabian Marley as Bob Marley's son. 38.75.6.194 (talk) 17:16, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

These sources do: [4], [5]. I'm happy to go either way on this according to consensus as to whether the sources should be trusted. --Michig (talk) 17:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

These sources look fine to me, a Zimbabwean source is as reliable as a similar US one as far as I am concerned; the material should not remain in the article without adding these sources asap, please. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 18:14, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Done Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:46, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Suggested Opening Rewrite

May I suggest that we rewrite the opening. How about:

Nesta Robert Marley OM (6 February 1945 – 11 May 1981), better known as Bob Marley, was a Jamaican singer-songwriter who achieved international fame through a series of crossover reggae albums. Starting out with the group The Wailers he forged a distinctive songwriting and vocal style that would later resonate with audiences worldwide. The Wailers, building upon the earlier rock steady template, would go on to create some of the earliest reggae records with producer Lee Scratch Perry. After the Wailers disbanded Marley pursued a solo career and though championed by the artist Johnny Nash, who had a hit with the song "Stir It Up" in 1972, it would be another five years and the release of the album Exodus before he was propelled onto the international stage. A committed Rastafarian his later music was infused with a profound sense of spirituality that was rare in the pop charts.

END

I was going to add the One Love Peace Concert but maybe better to keep it simple. Anyone got any opinions on the above. Please note that I've used the standard opening of real name followed by better known as - its not my standard - its just a form of opening that is standard. I used it on the Prince Buster article and others. Tell me what you think - if you're all ok about it I'll replace the opening three lines.

Sluffs (talk) 00:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I've rewritten the above. Use the history to view previous edits if you want. I think the above it better. I'll keep trying different openings until something clicks. Feel free to say what you think or do your own rewrite. Freedom and all that.

cheers

Sluffs (talk) 13:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Nesta Robert Marley OM (6 February 1945 – 11 May 1981), better known as Bob Marley, was a Jamaican singer-songwriter who achieved international fame through a series of crossover reggae albums. Starting out with the group The Wailers he forged a distinctive songwriting and vocal style that would later resonate with audiences worldwide. The Wailers, building upon the earlier rock steady template, would go on to create some of the earliest reggae records with producer Lee Scratch Perry. After the Wailers disbanded in 1974 Marley pursued a solo career though it would be another three years and the release of the album Exodus before he was propelled onto the international stage. A committed Rastafarian his later music was infused with a profound sense of spirituality that was rare in the pop charts.

END

Nesta Robert Marley OM (6 February 1945 – 11 May 1981), better known as Bob Marley, was a Jamaican singer-songwriter who achieved international fame through a series of crossover reggae albums. Starting out with the group The Wailers in 1963 he forged a distinctive songwriting and vocal style that would later resonate with audiences worldwide. The Wailers would go on to release some of the earliest reggae records with producer Lee Scratch Perry. After the Wailers disbanded Marley pursued a solo career and though championed by the artist Johnny Nash, who had a hit with the song "Stir It Up" in 1972, it would be another five years and the release of the album Exodus before he was propelled onto the international stage. A committed Rastafarian his later music was infused with a profound sense of spirituality that was rare in the pop charts.

END

Sluffs (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Nesta Robert Marley OM (6 February 1945 – 11 May 1981), better known as Bob Marley, was a Jamaican singer-songwriter who achieved international fame through a series of crossover reggae albums. Starting out in 1963 with the group The Wailers he forged a distinctive songwriting and vocal style that would later resonate with audiences worldwide. The Wailers would go on to release some of the earliest reggae records with producer Lee Scratch Perry. After the Wailers disbanded in 1974 Marley pursued a solo career though it would be another three years and the release of the album Exodus before he was propelled onto the international stage. A committed Rastafarian his later music was infused with a profound sense of spirituality that was rare in the pop charts.

END

Sluffs (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy with the last one. Listening to the chugging reggae sound of Soul Rebel - 1970/71 - I think its only right to mention Lee Scratch Perry. Compare the production of these Perry sessions with the 1975 "Eighteen with a Bullet" by Derrick Harriot.

I'm going to swap out the opening - revert my edit if you prefer the earlier opening.

cheers

Sluffs (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sluffs. Could I request that you please work the terms ska and rocksteady into the lede paragraph again? It's useful to let people know he was also a pioneer of the earlier two genres from 1963 well before reggae was developed in 1968. His first big hit was a ska song, Simmer Down. Other than that and a couple missing commas, the above looks okay. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

No. lol - and of course it looks ok - its got a colored editor writing it ;-)

Sluffs (talk) 18:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Also the opening doesn't need to have every major achievement, award, project, release, etc. The opening sentences should encapsulate the subject and in this case a wide time span is involved. The wider the timeline of the article subject the more general the opening has to be. View it like a headline - you choose to read articles in newspapers because the headline interests you. Headlines need to be short and straight to the point as do article openings. You want the reader to read the article not a brief career synopsis in the intro. Adding all the genres he was involved in would just be details added for the sake of details. Let the main body of the article cover the fine points.

Sluffs (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I just thought I'd put the record straight. Its nothing to do with color its whether you are interested in a subject and are willing to give time to your field of interest. Field is the operative word. I like the field of music. I write music articles though I wouldn't know where to start with a Chemistry article. Also its unrecorded history, not Bob Marley, I mean "the music of the people" - or even better "the music of the peoples of the world". So we might as well get on recording it here so that it all links together. Brazilian Hip Hop, Bob Marley, The Clovers - all sounds like peoples music to me.

Sluffs (talk) 21:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Do we need this sentence?

I don't think this serves any purpose in the opening other than to assign Rolling Stone magazine some authority in the matter of his importance. If no one minds I'll move it to awards. Why give Rolling Stone prominence in the opening when the subject of the article should be prominent.

"In 2004, Rolling Stone ranked Marley as the 11th greatest artist of all time."

Sluffs (talk) 17:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 18:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Use of honorific titles - Wikipedia Manual of Style

You've probably noticed that I've removed "The honorable..." which opened the article - Here's the MoS guidelines:

"In general, styles and honorifics should not be included in front of the name"

Here's the link to the MoS page:

Wikipedia MoS - Biographies

Sluffs (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I prefer to keep the word "death" or related terms out of the opening

I would like to remove the statement "released three years after his death" from the Legend sentence in the opening. All it does is qualify a release date for a compilation album as occurring three years after his death. Not really pertinent and I hope no one minds.

Sluffs (talk) 19:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

How about removing this from the opening?

I propose removing this:

START

His best-known hits include "I Shot the Sheriff", "No Woman, No Cry", "Could You Be Loved", "Duppy Conqueror", "Stir It Up", "Get Up Stand Up", "Jamming", "Redemption Song", "One Love", and "Three Little Birds",[5] as well as the posthumous releases "Buffalo Soldier" and "Iron Lion Zion". The compilation album Legend is reggae's best-selling album, going ten times Platinum,[6] and selling 25 million copies worldwide.[7][8]

END

The choice is the opening's end sentence:

• The compilation album Legend is reggae's best-selling album, going ten times Platinum, and selling 25 million copies worldwide.

• A committed Rastafarian, his later music was infused with a profound sense of spirituality that was rare in the pop charts.

Removing the singles and album above would reduce the opening but I always found those three paragraphs (Manual of Style says something about that being the max so everyone maxes out the intro) a bit long. Too much info spoils the article - no sense of discovery. Articles should be like journeys with a start - scenic stop offs - vistas - friends met - etc - end. Biographies are stories about peoples lives - life unfolds for everyone - so why crunch someones life into three paragraphs in the opening. That isn't the case here - here we just have a mini discography.

Just an idea at moment. If no one objects I'll remove the mini discography.

Sluffs (talk) 22:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Its a week later and no ones left a comment. I'll remove the hits. If you object revert my edit.

cheers

Sluffs (talk) 00:50, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Quite right. Rothorpe (talk) 01:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I think it would be good to mention the live version of No Woman No Cry as it was that which really launched his international career, as the documentary in 2012 verifies but otherwise, fine. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Nesta Robert "Bob" Marley or Nesta Robert Marley for the opening

I had changed the opening to the standard "better known as" statement with regards to the name "Bob Marley". His parents named him Nesta Robert Marley just as Prince Buster's parents named him Cecil Bustamente Campbell. When I started the Prince Buster article is opened with "Prince Buster, real name Cecil Bustamente Campbell , is a...".

I just thought it was correct to open articles with the subject's real name. It is his full name and in my opinion should be left "as is" without contraction or expansion. Let "better known as" handle the contraction of Robert to Bob and informal removal of Nesta.

Sluffs (talk) 13:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Here's the Wikipedia Manual of Style guidelines:

START

First mention

While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known (including middle names, if known, or middle initials). Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version. For example:

• (from Fidel Castro): Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz (born August 13, 1926) ...
• (from François Mitterrand): François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand (October 26, 1916 – January 8, 1996) ...
• (from Brian Jones): Lewis Brian Hopkin Jones (28 February 1942 – 3 July 1969) ...

END

If no one minds I'll change it so that it follows the above. I was wrong there is no need to state "better known as" in this case. All the three examples above don't use that so I'll leave that out.

cheers

Sluffs (talk) 13:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

The Quote I Removed

This is a terrible quote fulfilling all the usual self-gratifying hyperbole that is regularly spouted by authors including Rolling Stone's Jann Wenner. I couldn't care less for Wenner's position as owner of Rolling Stone or the fact that he spoke this at the dedication. Its just rubbish - Smokey Robinson hey! The personal charisma of John Lennon, the lyrical force of Bob Dylan" - yeah right pal and the Third World thanks you for it. lol

START

{quote|Bob Marley was the Third World's first pop superstar. He was the man who introduced the world to the mystic power of reggae. He was a true rocker at heart, and as a songwriter, he brought the lyrical force of Bob Dylan, the personal charisma of John Lennon, and the essential vocal stylings of Smokey Robinson into one voice.| Jann Wenner, at Marley's 1994 posthumous induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame}}

END

If you disagree then revert but just remember that Jann Wenner is saying this not the residents of Nairobi, Brixton or Kingston.

Sluffs (talk) 14:42, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

“the third world’s first global pop star”, The first major rock artist to come out of a Third World country, Bob Marley was considered the world’s first third-world pop star. I think there are plenty of other sources to verify that Bob Marley is seen as the first rock/pop/reggae star from the 3rd world, and I have no doubt that Jamaica is a part of the 3rd world, that would be very easilñy sourced too, I dont think we have to use the quote you removed but stating this would be good. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 14:54, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Was he really the first star to make pop hits from the Third World? I thought Belafonte had a claim. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:01, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia says Harry Belafonte is American. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:07, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I should have read that before asking off the top of my head. Now I see both he and Marley spent parts of their youth in both countries, but one was Jamaican born in Jamaica, and the other American born in America. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I think more important to me is that Belafonte is really of the generation which preceded pop stars (perhaps the 1st was Elvis) let alone rock stars. I have always assumed Marley was the first 3rd world person to penetrate the 1st world monopoly on pop/rock stars, I assume tyhough cant be assure due to something I had read years ago. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I know what you mean, but the preceding generation certainly saw Belafonte as a pop star, he was still big and touring with big rock acts at the end of the 60s, I believe. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:33, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

This article has to conform to encyclopedia standards. Of course there are many standards ranging from popular encyclopedias to scholarly encyclopedias, Reggae articles usually follow the popular form in the naive belief that promotion equates to equality. Equality between articles should be based on scholarly research. Where's the details on Ernest Ranglin who arranged Bob Marley's first Jamaican hit? When I first came onto this article I added a ref that was an interview with Bunny Lee (who? exactly) the producer of the Wailer's track "Mr Chatterbox" which is a reply song to Niney the Observer. Where is all this information in the article? What is more important? - recording a comment by Wenner for posterity or the history of the Jamaican people as seen through the lens of Bob Marley's life and music.

I know Wenner was specifically referring to the Third World of Africa where Bob Marley is indeed a huge star. Well how about we make a break with the past and just starting using the correct encyclopedic statement: Bob Marley is a major star across the African continent - no need for Third World - there's only one world and we all live on it. Wikipedia is an example of an educational resource that is being shared in many languages across our one world. Third World may be used by official bodies and governments but I refuse to believe that Wenner's quote deserves a place of importance in this article. I also believe that Bob Dylan and John Lennon need to be removed - Ernest Ranglin and Bunny Lee are probably more important. The quote has to go for serious reasons despite my slightly sarcastic comments.

Sluffs (talk) 15:59, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Bob Marley is a huge star in many parts of the 3rd world, including tropical Latin America where I live, but I do agree there are more important fixes than this one to this article and I am not entirely happy with the potential refs I produced above, a more substantial ref might warrant inclusion though. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:03, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

This article is not about preserving the memory of Bob Marley for his fans in tropical Latin America. Bob Marley is the subject - not you, Wenner, Jimmy Wales or me. This is an encyclopedia article not a boxed column in a teenage magazine detailing the likes and dislikes of the latest boy band. I have no problem in removing the quote and you are perfectly entitled to revert my edit - the main thing is that the article is improved.

Sluffs (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Obviously not or it would have to be in Spanish or Portuguese, in fact I was merely contradicting your claim that his popularity is somehow restricted to 3rd World Africa within the 3rd world. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:42, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Til Eulenspiegel is here which means I must go. I've proposed that this editor is not being honest with us (see his Talk Page). I have suggested in quite clear terms that the authority he assigns to his edits is questionable because he refuses to truthfully identify himself. I have found that when I edit and he follows (as he no doubt does with many editors) that it is time to leave before the joke wears thin.

Sluffs (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Good grief, give me a break! I follow this page and do not follow you. I have no problem or hostility toward you or your edits and improvements, and yours toward me is apparently only because I have not revealed my personal identity, which puts me in the same boat as most wikipedians. Can't we all get along here? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:07, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I have had no problem working with Til over a number of years. I dont think any of us have fully revealed our identities on wikipedia, and there is absolutely no requirement to do so. And you are perfectly welcome here, Sluffs, keep up the good work. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

In reply to Til's Give Me A Break:

No. In our discussion on your Talk Page you added the lame excuse that Reggae has an aspect of slackness in the lyrics. At that point I knew you were not neutral in any way. To really be neutral you have to extend the same rights to others as you expect extended to yourself. I couldn't care less if Buju Banton was offensive in his lyrics or if Bob Marley sang for the world. My aim is to join the dots. Prince Buster was influenced by the Clovers - so after I finished the Prince Buster article I did the Clovers article - then I linked them. I then did the Brazilian Hip Hop article which I added some Afrika Bambaataa details to - which when I've finished (the Brazilian Hip Hop article is not finished ) I'm going to blue link the term "Bambaataa" and then I'm going to probably start on the Bambaataa article - which after I've tackled I'm then going to link to the Paul Winley article since he released Planet Rock by Bambaataa and then the Paul Winley article will be the next article I do. Who is Paul Winley? He's the bass singer from the Clovers. Now go back to the sentence that starts "Prince Buster was influenced by the Clovers" - oh look at that - they are all connected in a circle.

Sluffs (talk) 18:00, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Not entirely relevant but some reggae, though not Bob Marley's, does have a slackness in its lyrical content. But the point is that editing disputes often happen but it doesnt mean we cannot edit the same articles as or work together with those we have had disagreements with. The main point is to keep civil and work out the disagreements according to wikipedia policies and guidelines. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 18:08, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

lol. thats right - "stir it up little darling" refers to that stew that needs a ladle. classic. another one who just doesn't get it.

Sluffs (talk) 18:12, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Err, what? What exactly is it you are claiming I dont get? Lets just get on with building an encyclopedia, yes?. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 18:18, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Wow. I just now looked to see if wikipedia had an article on that, and sure enough it has: slackness... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Relpy to Squeakbox:

Does that mean I can add Ernest Ranglin to this article as the arranger of The Wailing Wailers early Jamaican single "Its Hurt To Be Alone" written by Bob Marley / Junior Braithwaite and then blue link to the Ranglin article which I finished last year which has Prince Buster already blue linked since Ranglin was the bassist on most of Prince Buster's early hits - not entirely relevant you say? The track should be in the Wailers article and here.

Sluffs (talk) 18:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually "Simmer Down" from the first album by The Wailers would be a better song to include - I wonder if Ranglin played on that? Maybe the Skatalites - I'll check. It would be a good song to point readers to Bob Marley's early material (14 or 15 years old I think) and would cover Til Eulenspiegel's point on ska that he wanted to add. It is not a case of "I don't want to collaborate" its just a point of what it is that we are trying to achieve with our collaborations. An encyclopedia biographical article about Bob Marley or a fan letter?

Sluffs (talk) 19:01, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Your edits seem fine to me, we definitely dont want a fan piece. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 21:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed; this should at best be framed as prose with some other viewpoints, but most of this quote isn't even about his "legacy". --McGeddon (talk) 08:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

ORIGINAL QUOTE

Per the original quote, I have reverted you Sluffs, as you mentioned up top for someone to do if they disagreed. Your removal to me looks like WP:IDONTLIKEIT, more than anything. You don't like the quote, which is fine. But it is sourced to a reputable source about Marley specifically - (Henke, James (2006). Marley Legend: An Illustrated Life of Bob Marley), it is from a notable event - (Marley's 1994 posthumous induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame), and it represents as you even admit a popularly held view which is backed up by many sources (some are listed up above by the user Squeakbox). We have to assume that some readers of this page may not be that familiar with the subject, and this quote helps give them several points of reference to other singers with which to better understand Marley. You may disagree with the choices, but then again, you weren't picked to induct Marley into the Hall of Fame.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 04:27, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This is the post I left on the Talk Page of Redthoreau:

START The quote is erroneous. It is egotistical and serves Wenner not Marley. Reggae is not mystic music it may be called spiritual - mystic may seem to have the same meaning as spiritual but its loaded with ideas of magic and other such mystic rubbish - palm reading crap.

He did not have anything in common with John Lennon especially the nonsense lyrics that Lennon engaged in to insult his sycophantic fans (something Marley never did). And Marley would not say we are bigger than God and that religion will end as Lennon did. Let alone write a song about his mother as Lennon did which sounds like Lennon has issues.

Bob Dylan is nothing to do with Bob Marley - if you added him to the Hendrix article then yes because Hendrix was a fan.

The quote is typical of magazine publishers. It is designed to serve them. A good example is the recent Rupert Murdoch quote: "This is the humblest day of my life" that led to him receiving a custard pie in the face. It was not his humblest day and he was at the inquiry because there had been a serious breach of civilized behavior from the editors of his publications.

Pack it in. If Wenner wants to promote his magazine then let him take a full ad out in the New York Times. Do not restore the erroneous quote. END cheers Sluffs (talk) 09:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

You don't make the rules around here Sluffs. Your rant above only further proves that you lack the objectivity on the matter. Your opinions or views are IRRELEVANT, it doesn't matter what you think of the author or the quote, or your own views on what it "really" means. This is not your personal blog. This quote comes from a book on Marley, and from his induction into the Hall of Fame. Your personal view on it's relevance doesn't matter.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 06:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Without personal judgements, the "Legacy" section would be a list of a hundred sourced quotes from different people commenting on Marley's death. The Wenner quote doesn't seem a particularly relevant fit for the section, because it says little or nothing about Marley's actual legacy, it just happens to have been spoken aloud at an event posthumously honouring him. I've cut it. --McGeddon (talk) 08:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Do not use the term "black" regardless of what Wikipedia's stupid guideline states

As a colored man (for want of a better description) I am asking you all regardless of who you are to make a break with the past.

There is no need to use the words "black people", "blacks", "black African" unless these form part of quotes, song titles, refs from authors, etc.

This is the year 2013 and this is a world encyclopedia. We have it in our power to shape the future of the world and is no way do we need to adhere to the language of the past.

There is no reason in the running text of this article to use the term "black" when we can use the terms: African, African descent, a Jamaican with an African genetic heritage, he was of African and English descent, etc.

If you have never read Othello then it is obvious that you don't understand how Iago used language to inflame the Moor and created the conditions to allow the Moor to fulfill the stereotype that existed at the time of Shakespeare and still exists now. Desdemona does not need to die only the term "black".

Sluffs (talk) 09:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Which particular "stupid guideline" are you referring to here? --McGeddon (talk) 10:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I wonder what Marley would say - he certainly used the term, in those days when "Black is Beautiful" was the popular slogan. I hadn't realized it was obsolete already, but even if it is the "language of the past" (1960s) as you say, I can't believe the popularity of that slogan and similar phrases in the day, could now be perceived as "language to inflame the Moor"! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:59, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Language is organic - it evolves to serve its purpose. Archaic dead languages like Latin are a thing of beauty but no one speaks the language of Latium anymore so its a cultural time-capsule. Lets use the correct technical terms - I've proposed that since African-American is already in general use that we may as well adopt it as standard practice on this site and assign the word "black" to the history books. Its technical and can be applied to anyone in the world using the simple formula: genetic heritage/country of birth.

Then we can describe people as European-Americans or Euro-Americans. African-Brazilians or Afro-Brazilians. Asian-British (no contraction available), European-Brazilians or Euro-Brazilians, etc.

Its a no brainer really. Language is thought expressed as sounds or symbols. If we do this we affect the way people think about origin and country of birth. The world is getting smaller. People relocate from continent to continent far more frequently and in bigger numbers then in the past. Its not a case of what Bob Marley wrote in 1977 in his lyrics. Assign Iago to the past for there he belongs.

Sluffs (talk) 17:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I dont agree,w e need to stick with wikipedia policies and guidelines when editing as well as show sensitivity towards what we are editing. I have seen no evidence that black is an obsolete term to describe ppl some or all of whose ancestors came from pre-19th Century sub-Saharan Africa. Our only interest here is Marley, we arent interested in semantics. To describe Marley as half Afro-Caribbean and half Euro-Caribbean smacks of political correctness to me. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:29, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This is a worldwide encyclopedia that exists in cyberspace and is in itself the product of all the collaborators from around the world that participate. Without the internet and its worldwide reach this encyclopedia would not exist. Every issue I've highlighted to do with the term "black" is related to the existence of this encyclopedia. If you need to define what I'm saying then just call it: new technical and formal definitions of terminology used to describe genetic heritage and country of origin as applied to an online worldwide collaborative encyclopedia.

Sluffs (talk) 18:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Squeakbox's mixed-race question:

As for the terminology for those with two or more genetic heritages - I've not found or thought of something suitable. I had thought of extension - so Marley would be African-European-Jamaican. Since you can only be born in one place as long as its understood the last term is country of birth then people will naturally understand the rest. Obviously we may end up with descriptors containing four genetic heritages since we all have four grandparents. We would have to use continent descriptors for the genetic heritage part: Africa, Asia, Europe (and whatever else people feel needs to added).

For native peoples, as in the tribes of the American Plains or Inuit, I don't have any suggestions.

Sluffs (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I had posted this as an edit description but it may be more useful here:

I've removed North America and South America - since genetic traits are the result of continental factors as varied as weather, resources, terrain, etc - the only people who can take the genetic marker of N.America and S.America are its original inhabitants.

Sluffs (talk) 19:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

You would also have to limit the genetic generational timeline. Probably parents will suffice. Basically your definition of your genetic heritage will be based on the information given to you by your parents and will consist of their definition of their genetic heritage. No one can take a genetic descriptor beyond that. Remember we are talking about replacing informal speech descriptors with technical descriptors in Biographical articles.

Sluffs (talk) 19:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This sounds to me like a policy or guideline issue and if so you should take it up with the relevant policy or guideline pages. Marley is possibly the second msot famous mixed-race individual, after Obama. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 20:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

No. This needs to be here for all the colored people (for want of a better term - I'm still thinking about a better term) who read this article. They receive the affect of the words and they need to propose the alternatives. Put in simple terms that everyone can understand - males define the things that constitute masculinity and women define the things that constitute femininity. Lad mags are not written by women and Elle is not written by men. In other words those who are of the "thing" itself usually occupy the best position to discuss the "thing" (you can replace "thing" with any term you want - airline pilots, hockey players, turnip growers, bee keepers, etc). This is not a guideline issue - this is a universal issue that affects us all but doubly affects those described as such. To remove this to a Guideline Talk Page would be counter-productive. For example: If the Suffragettes had not made the issue of votes for women visible to the wider public through highly visible protests including hunger strikes, imprisonment, direct action which included breaking laws (read: guidelines) then ALL women would not have the vote. There is no need for self-immolation as the Tibetan monks have done to highlight their continued oppression under the Chinese authorities - we just need to set this article alight.

Sluffs (talk) 23:53, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

The colour of wikipedia editors NEVER matters any more than their sex does or their sexual orientation or their religion or their nationality. If it is a universal issue it certainly should not be discussed on the Bob Marley talk page but you wont get very far claiming that some articles should only be edited by ppl who have a certain skin colour or that you need a certain skin colour to understand certain things. As ppl can edit anonymously we dont even need to know someone's skin colour, and that, IMO, is absolutely right. We also dont need to set the article alight though getting it to GA or even FA status would be a great challenge and appropriate to the nature of the article on such a notable figure♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:08, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

You've made a mistake. I was pointing out that those described as "black" are under-represented on this site. It you go to the Talk Page of the Big Bill Broonzy article you will read a post I left in January of 2013 where I mentioned this issue. No one asked women if they wanted the vote - it was the Suffragettes who put the proposal on the table. Now that women in Egypt have the vote does that mean we should disenfranchise them because the European Suffragettes from one hundred years ago didn't ask them if they wanted to be represented? I was pointing out in the examples given above that representation is not served by those who are not of the group seeking representation and that representation itself is a form of dialogue that does not arrive fully formed. Airline pilots work in consultation with the civil aviation authority to improve and implement safety measures for air travel and this affects all who travel by air. People what we have here is someone who read into my post what they wished to see written and not what was actually written. I also highlighted at the Broonzy Talk Page that this issue is a point of divergence between Wikipedia editors. I mentioned in the post above that this needs to be discussed here because we (all of us here regardless of background genetics) need to ask those who are being described as "black" if they wish to join this site to affect the consensus guideline. Anyway you are boring me now with your lack of original ideas - bring something of your own to the table rather than falling back on misreading and misinterpretation. You are being facetious, negative, evasive and living up to your username of SqueakBox. If you insist on burying this issue on a Guideline proposal page then the issue dies because we don't have enough "blackie" editors as it is and it will become just a minor discussion between a few Wikipedia editors who probably are not of the group being described and discussed. This article will have many African and West Indian readers whereas the Village Pump, RFC and other such pages will have very few. Look I really need to get back to writing articles for the database for the Enterprise NX-01 - I have a lot of faith in Nasa and the American people's desire to explore space. So can we leave this discussion "as is" and accept that Borg assimilation may not be desirable but it is a highly practical way of overcoming racism.

Sluffs (talk) 13:10, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

A profound sense of spirituality

We would need a source that it is specifically his later music which has "a profound sense of spirituality" as this seems to imply his early music doesnt. Marley isnt Capleton and was writing profound lyrics since his first single "Judge Not", surely one of his most spiritual pieces ever. Please bring your concerns here rather than edit warring over this. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:33, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

It reads like OR to me; "profound" is a blatant peacock term.--Chimino (talk) 20:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

In that case we need to reliably source or remove the whole sentence, I have labelled it with a {{Citation needed}} tag. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 20:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll remove the whole sentence. Give me a day or two to source something which can be referenced and I'll do a swap. I'm actually not interested in arguing about peacock terms (quite ironic since all male editors here are peacocks by default and all the male musicians that have a biographical entry are also peacocks - I think you will find in nature that it is mostly the male of the species that does the big noisy or colorful display) or original research (quite ironic since no author of any work in existence has ever written a book that didn't contain original research). I challenge anyone to find a book (with references) of any kind that doesn't contain one or two sentences expressing a personal view which therefore constitutes original research. We are in essence using references from peacocks who themselves have used unreferenced sentences to display loudly to other males their intellectual prowess.

Which seems to be what we male editors spend a lot of time arguing about on Talk Pages under the guise of rules and guidelines. lol

Sluffs (talk) 23:17, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Original research is fine, just not on wikiepdia. if I wrote a book and published it on Marley my original research would be a reliable source but it isnt when I am just a wikipedia editor♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:02, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

So lets get this right. A published lie or misrepresentation is absolutely fine to use here. Hitler would have made you his Chief of Propaganda. lol

Sluffs (talk) 08:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Please remain civil, Sluffs, and avoid Godwin's law, I am no racist fool to be used by the likes of Hitler♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:43, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Chronological issues

This article has chronological problems. For example in the Early Life section we have three or four babylon songs mentioned in the paragraph to do with Marley's self-identification. If no one minds I would like to arrange this article so that songs are placed in their correct timeline.

People form their views over a long period and to have:

"Marley stated that his two biggest influences were Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie I and Marcus Garvey."

before the details on his move to Trench Town at 12 years old creates a disjointed article. Due to the prominence of Bob Marley I expect that when I make the changes that some editors may feel as though I have left gaps and reduced the content. Rest assured I am diligent towards finishing articles and I will not walk away from the task in hand. So if you spot a gap or two don't worry I'll be back the next day and the day after that, etc, etc.

I'm happy with the opening and intend to tackle the Early Life section - so I humbly request that you allow me to remove the quote, songs mentioned, Pan-African, etc. I'm pretty good at sourcing replacement details and I'm sure there are other details of his Early Life that should be included.

I ask you to read the Early Life section of the West Indian cricketer Viv Richards as well as Early Life section of Prince Buster - both sections were tidied up by me and will give you an idea of how I intend to shape Marley's Early Life section. If you disagree with any edits then feel free to revert.

Sluffs (talk) 08:39, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Placeholder for Early Life details: The Glass Bucket Club, the JBC and Vere John's Opportunity Hour

One of the common misconceptions of Jamaicans is that they had no TV, Radio, talent shows, youth clubs, etc, etc. I find this time and time again when I tackle reggae articles. There seems to be some romantic notions of poor "blacks" (hate that term. uuhh!) living on fish they caught from streams and able to live of the land like Rambo in First Blood. Honestly people.

Bob Marley followed the same path as Prince Buster and many others. In 1964 Bob Marley entered the Vere John's Opportunity Hour (this talent show was one of the most popular radio and theater shows of its day - Alton Ellis and his sister Hortense appeared there as well as many others).

Bob Marley also appeared at the Glass Bucket Club in 1965 - this was a club that provided a social gathering place for many teenage Jamaicans and was notable for not being exclusive. Did you know that Prince Buster was a dancer? - here's the sentence I used for the Prince Buster article:

"While at school Campbell performed three or four times a week at the Glass Bucket Club as part of Frankie Lymon's Sing and Dance Troupe; rock 'n' roll themed shows were popular during the 1950s with the Glass Bucket Club establishing a reputation as the premier music venue and social club for Jamaican teenagers at that time"

I intend to add the details to his Early Life or Early Career section. Not yet though hence the "Placeholder" title.

Sluffs (talk) 09:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm currently searching the net for interviews with Dekker or anyone else that remembers Bob Marley working as a welder. At the moment I've found a Claudius Linton interview with the superb Peter I (this guy should really get a medal for these interviews he has conducted) so I'm placing the link here:

Claudius Linton interview at Reggae Vibes

This is not the interview for the ref - I tend to place multiple links and then gather the pieces together for inclusion into the article - mentions Marley's shop in Charles Street. Please note I delete these links later if they are ad loaded but will leave them on a Talk Page for future editors if they are non-commercial.

Sluffs (talk) 13:42, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Found a Jamaica Gleaner article on Marley's early life - it names the welding company he worked for (need to pop back to the Dekker article to add this) and some other facts including more schools - "returned to Kingston at age 10, attended Model Private School, Wesley, Ebenezer and St Aloysius." - just need to confirm the Gleaner details - the Gleaner is usually correct in its reporting because it is in Jamaica but occasionally details are wrong - I imagine its more a case of their source's memories rather than correspondent error:

Jamaica Gleaner article on Bob Marley's early life

Sluffs (talk) 14:01, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Good work♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:27, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. To get things right means going through a process that is fraught with dangers and pitfalls but it all works out eventually. I consider it a cool thing to be allowed to edit the Bob Marley article and I hope that any changes I make to the article will be an improvement.

Back to the article - we need to sort out Marley's first single - we have Derrick Morgan, Jimmy Cliff and Desmond Dekker in the mix. What I normally do in these situations is find a session musician, engineer or record label owner interview to do with the recording session. Ernest Ranglin is usually good for details but he wasn't involved in the recordings of these tracks. I'll keep searching and hopefully I'll work out who did what. Its not that people get things wrong its more that they express their personal experience of what they believed happened during an event (something all editors on Wikipedia can relate too) - we've all had that experience - truth is a soul thing and everyone's soul is their own - so everyone experiences the same event differently. All the three guys mentioned were there at the start of Marley's career. Marley did work as a welder with Dekker - Jimmy Cliff was an A&R man as well as a major artist - Derrick Morgan was also a major star, friend to Jimmy Cliff and was deeply involved with Beverley's.

Sluffs (talk) 21:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I wish my parents had named me...

I removed the Timothy White claim about Marley telling him personally, on more than one occasion, that his formal name was Robert Nesta Marley. Marley's mother wrote two biographies and other authors have used that to cite his birth name (formal name) as Nesta Robert Marley. Maybe Marley did say that his formal name was Robert Nesta Marley to Timothy White - he wouldn't be the first person in the world to dislike the order of his names. Many people choose to be known to their intimate friends by their middle name in preference to their first name. Many people ignore or never state their middle name if they don't like it (Shirley being a classic example for boys - the name is male or female) and many people reorder or recast the spelling of their names. However this is an encyclopedia and must adhere to standards of scholarship. People rely on the details here being correct. If anyone can show that Marley's mother was wrong (highly unlikely) then revert but Timothy White has to be put in the category of "hearsay" until then.

Please note the removed details were between ref tags and therefore not part of the article. This may lead some editors to conclude that it is a harmless side note since it was not visible in the main body of the article but that is not the case.

Sluffs (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

That was one of the few things in the article I added this year. I fully agree that the evidence that the original name order was "Nesta Robert" is compellingly strong, and far superior to White's comment that is only hearsay. But only a couple of months ago ago this became a contentious issue, with accounts continually edit warring to state that Robert Nesta was the correct form. So to solve / settle it, I went over the sources, tracked the discrepancy in this issue, and pulled up the representative source quotes behind both viewpoints in print - because that's how I interpret "neutrality", giving both views their say, even though one seems to be extraordinarily weak and hear-say. Putting it in a footnote is a way of giving it "due weight".

So I don't think it's any great loss since I don't personally agree with White on this point anyway, but the neutrality part within me wants to let both sides say what they've got, and let readers form their own conclusion with the additional details. And note that both Tim White and Cedella Marley could be correct - she could have named him Nesta Robert and he still may have made those comments to Tim possibly shedding more light on the man's attitude toward his own birth name. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

We should certainly give Marley's (reported) views weight, so including both is best, see WP:IDENTITY♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Unless there is a direct quote or statement from Marley confirming that he stated such and such to White then its out. Even if Marley wanted it to be different its still no reason to dispute his mother's claim. Marley wouldn't be the first or last kid to dislike his name - I always fancied Rockefeller or Mountbatten - what doors would have opened for me! lol

Sluffs (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Does Babylon By Bus belong in the short discography list ?

In my opinion, there is no objective reason why it belongs here. These short lists usually provide only one artist's studio albums, while other releases (live, compilations, remixes...) are listed in detail on the discography page. And even if one decides that Bob's live albums belong here, why only Babylon By Bus and not his other live albums ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPGR69 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually we also include Live! (Bob Marley & The Wailers album) and it would be a travesty to remove that album form the list given its role in making him famous, esp the No woman, no cry version. These 2 live albums were the only ones released during Marley's lifetime, thus I support the inclusion of both but no other posthumously released live albums. It would be very difficult to justify including Live! but not including Babylon by bus. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:48, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

It is indeed more coherent this way. However, listing studio and live albums at once might be confusing for readers, as it is not clear upon which criteria these albums have been selected. Why not separate them in two lists, then ? I am updating the page, so as to make my point clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPGR69 (talk • contribs) 08:49, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone know if Bob Marley received the sacrament of Confirmation (Catholicism)

I did a quick search - the official Bob Marley site doesn't mention his confirmation. Google Books doesn't seem to have any information regarding this either. I'm not interested in highlighting Marley's views on the matter. Its just a bit of information to add to the early life section.

If anyone knows then I would appreciate a pointer to the book or website that says he either did or did not take the sacrament. Its important in the sense of developing an overall view of Marley's early life.

Here's the word spoken at your confirmation:

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the Spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God our Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your heart.

Might explain a few things about his music, views and lyrics. Or maybe not. Anyone?

cheers

P.S. put it in bold for those who were confirmed but forgot what was said at their confirmation. Include me in that. lol

Sluffs (talk) 00:21, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

How about removing the Hollywood Walk of Fame star?

I would like to remove the Hollywood Walk of Fame star. The image subject is not framed very well. It also seems to have been shot at night. Images should say something. I don't think this says anything really - I suppose it illustrates a street in America but does it really tells us anything about Bob Marley, Jamaica or his music. Its a badly framed image without the energy or focus that this article deserves.

If no one objects I'll remove it in a couple of days for aesthetic reasons other than its relevance or non-relevance.

Sluffs (talk) 23:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Syrian?

Marley is not a Syrian surname but an English one amply represented and also known by the variation, Marlow(e). Editors with privilege should confirm this on google and then delete the reference. --Akafd76 13:06, 14 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akafd76 (talk • contribs)

I just had a quick look and its listed as an English name:

This long-established surname is of Anglo-Saxon origin, and is locational from any of the various places thus called, including Marley in Devonshire, Durham, Kent and the West Riding of Yorkshire, or Marley Farm in Brede (Sussex).

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Marley#ixzz2iOmfbmIq

Sluffs (talk) 22:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's necessarily Anglo-Saxon. There was a de Marly or de Marley family of French nobility, and I think at least one of them came to England with the Norman conquest 1066. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know. The Saxons arrived all over Europe. In Normandy you'd think some of them are more Saxon (Germanic - also a lot of red headed Celts along the French northern coast as well) than French (Latin or Southern European). There's been a lot of trade and mixing and its quite common to find dual origins for surnames. We are talking about his surname which he got from his father - so English surname regardless of the thousands of years of cultural interchange between France and England. As for the French nobility that arrived with the Norman conquest - they are still around and still have French names. English names are place or occupation names - Carpenter, Smith, Butcher, Marlow, London (there are people with the surname London - a website says: this surname is of pre-medieval origins. It was locational, and usually described a person who left the city of London, and moved somewhere else).

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/London#ixzz2iPCOPm6C ), etc. Stick to English surname - Noval said he served in the English navy and even this latest interview about this British/Syrian connection is still stating England.

So Dawn French the English comedian has a surname that means...?

PS. Nice to see you are still around Til. As challenging as ever I see. lol

Sluffs (talk) 00:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh there's no doubt there's been plenty of Marley's in England ever since 1066, apparently the one who immigrated in that year had many descendants who were English. So I agree, stick to English surname, no need to get into any more remote detail anyway. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 00:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Why the wayward chronology is disrupting any further work

I mentioned above in an earlier post that the chronological issues are a problem. Its actually worse than just a problem. The article is suspended in the sense that no elaboration or further information can be added fluently due to the messy chronology.

Take his birth. We have the passport official mentioned before his father. So it goes " he was born" and then "a passport official renamed him" and then his father "was a plantation overseer when he met his mother". As you can see the jump to the passport official (which is an undated event adding further disruption to the chronology) is acting as a block.

This article needs stripping of misplaced details. I normally add them to a chronological bullet list on the Talk Page until a point in time where the details can be reinserted at the correct place. I'm worried that if I was to do this then some may undo my edits in the belief that I will not add them back in later.

Because of the interest in this article from many editors I humbly request that I be allowed to start removing erroneously placed details to this Talk Page. Basically I'm asking for a bit of faith from other editors since any removal of details may lead to temporary gaps. This will mean the removal of the Bob Marley quote where he ponders his heritage shortly after his birth and the removal of the passport information until a time when we can date the event (if it does have a date!).

The opening of the Early Life section should go:

He was born Nesta Robert Marley in blah blah....to Norval and Cedella blah blah. His father was a .... and his mother was an African-Jamaican. They met blah blah (followed by any info relevant to this union - e.g. Norval was a plantation overseer when he met Cedella).

As you can see the passport official details should not be in the "born where and to whom" sentences of the Early Life section. We also have the Marley quote where he discusses his views on being mixed race. This is the equivalent of picking up the bible and reading:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and Jesus would later be born in place called Israel. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. Jesus would later say "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

As you can see adding in information from a later period causes chronology issues. The Marley quote should be placed at its correct time - so if it was an interview in 1977 it should go "In 1977 Bob Marley was asked about his mixed race heritage and replied...."

Sluffs (talk) 10:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC)