Talk:Cardigan Welsh Corgi/Archive 1

Archive 1

Vulnerable Native Breed

This breed is classed in Britain as a VNB - a breed which originated in the UK but now has registration numbers with the Kennel Club of less then 300 puppies per year.

I'm a Canadian teenager on a gap year before Uni and I'm really interested in this. Would anyone like a VNB paragraph/link on this page? I can write it, but am ignorant about formatting etc. Plus, I'm trying to put together a whole collection on all 29 breeds on this list, including history and so on, using Wikipedia as one of my many sources. If you can help, or are interested at all, please contact me either on my talk page or at green_ied_dragon@hotmail.com

--The Wizard of Magicland 19:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

What external links should be included

An anonymous user has posted a link to a local rescue group. Clicking through the link, I find an all-breeds shelter in San Antonio. I don't think that the link is appropriate for the article, as Wikipedia is not meant to be a web directory. This can be a "thin edge of the wedge." Ronstew (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Can't correct URL in Notes Section

The Cardigan Welsh Corgi page Notes point to the AKC's Pembroke Welsh Corgi page. I.e., the reference should be http://www.akc.org/breeds/cardigan_welsh_corgi/index.cfm. I'm unable to change the Notes section - it seems only to have national language variants in it. Can someone please advise me? Llib xoc (talk) 14:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi – the notes (refs) section is created dynamically from the in-line refs (by the {{Reflist}} code), and so the source wiki markup code for them is in the text, not in the notes section – in this case it's in the "Appearance" section (where the ^[1] occurs in the article).

However, I'm not sure you're right that it's wrong... The ref in the text is supporting a statement about the Pembs corgi, so it looks correct to me. The AKC Cards corgi page ought to be linked somewhere though – if it's not used as a ref, it ought to be in the External links section. Richard New Forest (talk) 17:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

link to Cardigan Welsh Corgi Association

Your link to the above links to the American Cardigan Welsh Corgi Association - presumably you meant it to connect to the British Association which is www.cardiganwelshcorgiassoc.co.uk/ and this would be much more useful to British enquirers. 78.150.49.135 (talk) 16:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)Dave Piears

Pembroke tails

Richard, the article you cited does not say that all pems have short tails. It says that there is a mutation which, when heterozygously present, gives tails that range from bob to 1/2 normal length.

In North America, even very stubby tails are still routinely docked. Ronstew (talk) 18:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I see. Well, we need a form of words which covers both, and also takes account of areas (such as the UK) where docking is illegal. Richard New Forest (talk) 21:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Decapitalization

The reason I decapitalized the breed name (to Cardigan Welsh corgi) is that this is the correct capitalization. Although it is true that the sources spell it Cardigan Welsh Corgi, that is a colloquialism reserved for kennel clubs and dog enthusiasts, which are most of the sources. However, it is not encyclopedic; in encyclopedic writing, only proper nouns are capitalized. The word corgi is not a proper noun, so would not be. To draw a comparison, one would not write Whitetail Deer or Pug- it's whitetail deer and pug. Cardigan and Welsh are capitalized because they are proper nouns (much like St. Bernard), but corgi is not. In Victorian English, corgi would have been capitalized, but that was around a hundred years ago. Breed names, except for those that are proper nouns as mentioned above, are not capitalized in modern English. The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 04:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

"Welsh" is an adjective, not a noun. Since we are being picky.....

I have quoted you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dogs/Dog_breeds_task_force/General#Capitalisation_of_breed_names Ronstew (talk) 18:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I'm not used to British English (been to Scotland twice, but the fine points never quite grew on me), so I'd imagine you're correct. Thanks for quoting me, I hope I'm helpful at that discussion!! The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 22:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC) Strike comment I made after six hours of inhaling chlorine at work...

It is not a matter of British English. "American" is an adjective that must be capitalised. There must be a term for that. Ronstew (talk) 04:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

For some reason capitalisation of initials generates a lot of passion in Wikipedia. In fact here formal breed names are consistently capitalised – I've been unable to find a guidance document about this, but I've not been able to find many (any?) articles where they are not. Capitalisation is also normal in other written English that I've come across. Neither way is "correct": it's a matter of which convention is chosen.

Capitalisation of English names of species varies – the general WP policy is not to do it, but some groups, such as birds, are always capitalised. In several other areas there is disagreement, and in those the general rule is to keep each article internally consistent but otherwise leave as is.

As Ronstew says, proper nouns and their derivatives are always capitalised: this is dealt with by WP:CAPS. Richard New Forest (talk) 09:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's all correct, and I'm not suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that words like bloodhound, pug, and corgi are not proper nouns. The fact that bird names are capitalized has nothing to do with this; the only reason that's the case is that the ornithologists badgered everyone to death, and no one wants to deal with their bullshit anymore. It shouldn't have to come to that here, so I'm trying to change things to prevent it. Cardigan is a proper noun, as is Welsh; corgi is not, which is apparent by looking at the origin of the word. Therefore, it shouldn't be capitalized. Just because it's internally consistent doesn't make it right, MoS still comes into play here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 15:19, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, but there are many who'd argue that breed names and species names are proper nouns, and it can't be denied that the boundary is unclear. I think the argument would be that as there is only one London or one Barack Obama, there is only one, for example, Labrador Retriever breed, so its name must be a proper noun. To take a similar example, what about car models? Would you write "the Ford mondeo" or "the Land Rover discovery"? I think you'd be in a minority if you did. If not, how is that different from "the Labrador", "the House of Commons", "the Green Woodpecker", "the West Country" or "the Corn Marigold"?

I still think it's a matter of convention, rather than "correctness", and there is undoubtedly more than one convention to choose from. To me, lower case looks "better", but that's probably because I spent many years copy-editing in a house style that used that convention, and I'm stuck in my ways. To someone used to the German language convention, it must look very odd not having all Nouns capitalised in English. Incidentally, the origin of the word has nothing to do with it. "House" and "commons" are common nouns, but "House of Commons" is a proper one; Similarly "black" and "mountains", but "Black Mountains", and ultimately most proper nouns. Richard New Forest (talk) 20:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I responded here, and I'll say this here too; modern English doesn't do that. It's very common in Victorian English, but that left encyclopedic writing after 1911 or so. Some dialects retain it; the vast majority don't, outside of kennel clubs and dog lovers. But if consensus develops against me, I'm not going to get into a ridiculous edit war over it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 04:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

We definitely need consensus here before anyting is done, because we would have to move dozens of dog breed names to lower case, see Category:Dog breeds. I suggest that the best solution is to leave it as it is we leave it as it is.  Andreas  ^(T) 23:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

ISSUES - This Page Lacks Encyclopedic Rigor

There are a number of issues with this page that include a lack of citations, structure, respective content and helpful imagery that is required to get this page to an encyclopedic bar. Looking forward to majorly reworking this page with others over the coming days. FatFairfax 02:25, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Factual Clarification Needed Regarding Monk's Hoods

Hey there- Can anyone tell me a little bit more about the 'monk's hoods' markings on a Corgi? A quick google search doesn't turn up much information and so I'd like to understand and cite this. I'm referencing the line: "Other markings include ticking on the legs and muzzle, smutty muzzles and monk's hoods[citation needed]."FatFairfax 03:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Lifespan

The average(mean) lifespan of 11.7 is from the KC survey. You can find it beside the "age at death" histogram. The median is 12 years 2months (12.17) and can be found in the text under the heading "Mortality data".--Dodo bird (talk) 21:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Oldest herding breed?

I find it hard to believe that the corgi is the oldest herding breed in the world. Can you provide sources for this information? Elf | Talk 18:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The 3000 year estimate is widely published, but given that pems and cardis were treated as one breed 100 years ago, it is unsupported. There have been short legged farm dogs in Wales for a long time, but that's hardly an enyclopediac statement. Ronstew 02:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if television counts, but that is true. I heard it on the show Dogs 101. The thing is, that was for the Pembroke, and I'm not sure it counts for the Cardigan.Mokoniki (talk) 20:55, 12 August 2009 (UTC)Mokoniki

TV shows like that are not noted for their rigorous fact-checking. They are just using the same books that are based on stories told among enthusiasts. That's okay - it's just Until somebody can show me some 2500 year-old art or skeletons, I'll be skeptical. Ronstew (talk) 23:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I see. Mokoniki (talk) 03:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC)Mokoniki

I know W. Lloyd-Thomas and Clifford L.B. Hubbard did some of the older research on the corgi breeds (1930s). W. Lloyd-Thomas mentioned the Teckel connection (he called it "Tekal") and dated the breed's orgin to around 1200 BC in papers he wrote (some of which I've read). As is typical in writings of that era, his history is flowery and wordy and doesn't give specifics about the research. He does say that mid-Cardiganshire is "particularly wealthy in the remains of early Celtic fortifications (source: "What the Modern Corgi Owes to its Cardigan Ancestors," AKC Gazette, October 1935)," and I can only guess that it's from these remains that the corgi has been dated. Incidently, it might be better to call the early corgi a "livestock dog" rather than a "herding dog," as it was more of a guard...not unlike the Rottweiler. I'm curious what the reason for the doubt is, though...does the corgi just seem recent? I see no particular reason for skepticism...Celts have been around for a long time.--Nesr5 (talk) 09:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

This is the first time I've heard that Corgi's and Dachshund's were related is there a source for this? The modern dachshund traces it's lineage back a several hundred years, but the corgi may be quite a bit older than that.

This is also widely published. Ronstew 02:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I have a Welsh Cardigan Corgi named Harry,and although he barks quite a bit..hes the most affectionate dog i have ever had or seen! Hippi chic10 10:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Cardigans don't decend from Dachshunds, specifically, but from Teckel dogs, and have a common ancestor with the Dachshunds. It's the structure of the forequarters that make it a Teckel dog - it's got bent forearms, where the Pembroke has straight legs. It's probably closer to the Basset Hound. But, as it's a very old breed with a lost history, the decent and age of Cardigans is a theory accepted by almost all breeders and enthusiasts. [1] [2] KrypticKlaws 20:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KrypticKlaws (talk • contribs)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Cardigan Welsh Corgi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs references. I find the statement that they originated from Dachshunds doubtful (especially since earlier in the page it says they originated from Vallhunds, which I find more likely), but I don't know this breed well. Needs health and care sections. The temperament and history sections should be expanded. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 19:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 19:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC)