Talk:Cass Elliot

Not a ham sandwich

The article says "a partially eaten ham sandwich was found by her bed". I doubt it. See http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/mamacass.htm

Her doctor speculated (he turned out to be wrong, according to the death certificate) that she choked on a sandwich. There was no mention of ham. See http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/Cass_Article_small.JPG and http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/DC.JPG, both linked from http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/cass_elliot.htm

If you can find a credible source from the time that says there was a sandwich (ham or otherwise) in the room, then cite it. munge

In an interview with TV Land, her daughter claimed that there had been a sandwich in the room, but there were no bites taken out of it. She also claimed that her mother would not eat a ham sandwich as she was Jewish.Mustang6172 08:40, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, what's with the picture of the 'acutal ham sandwich'. I'm sure that a half eaten ham sandwich from the 70s wouldn't look like a whole sandwich in a frypan. Is this a genuiene photo or not?--124.181.97.253 09:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

A link to that TV Land interview would be helpful. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

If someone goes into a restaurant and chokes on a piece of steak, she will actually die because the heart doesn't get oxygen and thus goes into arrhythmia (heart attack). She was 33. No matter what she was doing or how fat she was she isn't nearly as big as some of the 33 year old land whales walking around today (2008). Lets get real people, she choked on a ham sandwich. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.138.203.179 (talk) 00:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Dr. 74.138.203.179. Read the article. No food was found in her trachea. How could she have choked if she had no food to block her air passage? I'm not one to feed the trolls, but please review the facts. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 11:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there a copy of the autopsy note saying that no food was found in the trachea? How did the coroner determine that there was no food in the trachea? Did she do a bronchoscopy down to the bifurcation (doubtful)? Did she open the trachea and inspect (doubtful)? There are many plausible reasons why no food would be found even if they did do an appropriate exam. When a body is moved it is entirely possible that enough abdominal pressure could be generated to dislodge a piece of sandwich. Ask anyone who works in a morgue how creepy it is to hear the bodies breathing when they are moved into different positions.

Probably the first person to examine Mama Cass was right. All that follows seems to be an attempt by her daughter and worshipful fans to make it seem like a completely undignified and out of control person magically died in a dignified manner. 33 year old females don't die of heart attacks. Her death certificate says "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity." It makes no mention of myocardial infarction. Fatty myocardial degeneration is something that would be a normal finding in someone of her size. Mama Cass wasn't any bigger than Rosie O'donnell and she is currently 13 years older than Mama Cass was at Death.

Stop with the whitewashing please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.138.203.179 (talk) 16:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

74.138.203.179, please note that the correct place to add your comments on this issue is at the bottom of the discussion, not at the top as you have been doing. Please add any future comments to the bottom of this thread.

All of the information in the article was obtained from verifiable references, as per Wikipedia standards. You are correct that the death certificate states "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" and I will add that to the article, along with references. But I could find no credible reference that stated that she choked on anything. That appears to be an urban legend and has been debunked on Snopes.

I don't know what Rosie O'Donnell has to do with Cass Elliot. Are you suggesting she is about to die from fatty myocardial degeneration? Mama Cass was larger than O'Donnell at her death. By all reports she was ~300 pounds. I don't think O'Donnell tips the scales at that, but I'm not an expert on O'Donnell. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 12:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

How are the creators of Snopes.com, who likely weren't even born at the time of Mama Cass' death, more credible than the physician who originally examined her? As stated above "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" is not the same thing as "heart attack" or "myocardial infarction". You should also add that to the article. As stated above "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" is an expected finding in someone of her size and appetites. It isn't necessarily a cause of death. That is like putting "nevus, left auricle" on the death certificate. Just because she had a mole on her left ear doesn't mean she died from it.

Furthermore, as stated above, there are problems with stating as fact that no food was found in her trachea. Once you move a body it is considered tainted evidence. The most credible exam is the original exam. We still don't know how the coroner determined that there was no food in the trachea. Unless she opened the trachea along its entire length or did a bronchoscopy down to the bifurcation, she can't state that there was no food in the trachea. Furthermore, even if she did perform those examinations, the only thing she could conclusively say is that "there is no food in the trachea at the time of the exam." That doesn't mean that it wasn't dislodged by moving the body. That is why the original examiner is the most trusted and valid.

I have also raised questions about her daughter's version of things and I think that she is anything but an ironclad credible source given her inconsistency in interviews and her obvious motives with regard to the issue.

I brought up Rosie as someone of similar size who is older and still alive. She almost certainly has "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" but she isn't dying from it. Rosie claimed to be 212 pounds on the View. There is no way that Mama Cass weighed anything close to 300 pounds. Artie Lange is someone who weighs exactly 300 pounds.

Artie Lange is not only physically larger than Mama Cass was, but he also is male and was a longshoreman. There is no way that Mama Cass had near the muscle mass that Artie Lange does.

The point of the weight discussion is that there are numerous 33 year old females walking around who weigh >600 pounds. 212, if that is a good approximation of what Mama Cass weighed, is positively petite. You can't say that she died because she was fat.

At the very best, you can say that her death due to a ham sandwich is disputed. You can't say that it was an urban legend that was debunked. The evidence simply isn't there. 74.138.203.179 (talk) 13:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this comes down to the fact that there are no reliable resources for all the claims you make. There are verifiable resources, but they come from sources that are not deemed reliable. Snopes is deemed reliable. I'm not a medical expert and don't want to become one. If you have evidence of your claims from reliable resources, whether they be books on online resources, then present them. Otherwise, everything you've argued is original research and can't be used on Wikipedia. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 12:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Edits

Can an editor more familiar with this topic review these edits. They were made by someone who made other edits that needed to be reverted. —siroχo 00:00, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

The pipe incident

FWIW the official site has an interview (Rolling Stone October 26, 1968, No. 20) in which the following exchange is given:-

"Is that a true story about a pipe falling on your head…

     It’s true, I did get hit on the head by a pipe that fell down and my range 
     was increased by three notes.  They were tearing this club apart in the 
     islands, revamping it, putting in a dance floor.  Workmen dropped a thin 
     metal plumbing pipe and it hit me on the head and knocked me to the 
     ground.  I had a concussion and went to the hospital.  I had a bad 
     headache for about two weeks and all of a sudden I was singing higher.  
     It’s true.  Honest to God.

The Las Vegas gig that "ended badly"

Those into schadenfreude will enjoy the article from Esquire Magazine June, 1969 by William Kloman entitled SINK ALONG WITH MAMA CASS, found at the official Mama Cass website

Pics?

Any pictures of call elliot? I am interested in what she looks (looked) like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TullFan2000 (talk • contribs)

Though it probably wasn't there when you posted this question, now their is a pic of the whole band at the beginning of the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Peter Tork, father of her child?

This might help: http://www.marinij.com/fairfax/ci_8540874 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gigi5154 (talk • contribs) 02:17, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Her relationship with Peter Tork of The Monkees has been reported in many places. Was he the father of her child? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.225.124.179 (talk • contribs)

No one knows. I think that was made pretty clear in the article. I don't anyone will know unless her daughter comes forward and announces who it is. — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, quite a few people know that Owen Elliot's father is the legendary guitarist Chuck Day, including Owen herself. Chuck was at one time the bass player and sometimes second guitar lead for the Mamas and Papas recording sessions. I was present when Owen met her biological father for the first time. The meeting was NOT arranged by Michelle Phillips at all, but by Owen's legal guardian, Cass's sister. Cass had confided in her sister about the true identity of the father, shorly after Owen's birth. Chuck suspected for many years that he was Owen's father, but never received confirmation of that until long after Cass's death when Owen sought out her bilogical father. Out of respect for Cass, he never approached Owen until she expressed an interest in meeting him.

In addition, I've known Peter Torkelson for over 20 years, and he has never admitted any intimate relationship with Cass, though they were indeed good friends. Jazzorama 01:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the Courthouse News Service Owen Elliot's father is James Hendricks. This information also appeared in the The New York Times Biographical Service in 1974. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 03:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Title of nobility

When I stumbled across this article, it claimed that Cass Elliott was Baroness von Wiedenmann by marriage to Baron von Wiedenman. I do not know Baron von Wiedenman, but I doubt he was noble.

If he were or was American or Canadian, he wouldn't be noble, because both countries have no peerage.

If he were British, then why would he be named von Wiedenmann? That is a German preposition.

Finally, if he were German, Austrian, or Swiss, those countries again have no peerage.

Admittedly, if he were German, his wife would by law receive the surname "Baronin von Wiedemann", but that doesn't mean she is a Baroness, only her last name would reflect her gender, and in any case, it would be Baronin, not Baroness. That only leaves the possibility that Baron von Wiedenmann is a baron in the peeerage of Liechtenstein, an area over which I have no knowledge. That, however, I consider highly unlikely! And finally, all three times that the nobility of Cass Elliott was added, it was under an anonymous IP: [1], [2] [3] Blur4760 22:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It was clearly vandalism, you were right to remove it. I don't think she was ever married, but she certainly wasn't married to royalty. — Frecklefoot | Talk 00:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect. She was married to Donald von Wiedenman who is identified all over the place as a Baron. See the official Cass Elliot website - http://www.casselliot.com/imagepage2.htm - for a photo with the caption: "Cass and her second husband Baron Donald von Wiedenman, 1971" Tvoz 00:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The Time obituary was appearently written by somebody who did not know much about Germany. Her husband could not have been heir to a barony, because Germany was a republic at that time. That is also the reason why she couldn't become a baroness. Legally, all former noble titles form part of the surname, thus her husband's name could have been Donald Baron von Wiedenman. This man was then appearently known under the name Baron Donald von Wiedenman. However, his wife cannot be a Baroness, because he is legally not a baron. Furthermore, under German law, her name would have been registered under "Baronin von Wiedenman" (not Baroness von Wiedenman) if it was registered in Germany at all. Again, that does not mean that she was a baroness; it is just common practice that former noble titles that form part of the surname of a person will be inflected according to gender in Germany. And there is no source so far that claims that she was a baroness (and if there is, it would be absurd: Germany is a republic, and has no baronesses; I thought that was common knowledge. People can be known as something, but that doesn't make them that). My source for the legal situation regarding last names and titles of nobility in Germany would be "Die Adelsbezeichnung im deutschen und ausländischen Recht" ("Titles of nobility under German and foreign law") by Karl Friedrich Dumoulin, 1997. I am sorry there I have no English source, but I guess there are not many books in English that deal with the question of what happened to former German noble titles after Germany became a republic. All that said, I am removing the claim that she was a baroness. Blur4760 22:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The claim that someone cannot be a baron in Germany is (and I am speaking as a German academic social historian here) nonsense, because while the nobility as a judicial category was indeed abolished in 1919, all titles were at the same time legally converted into surnames and are borne as such to this day by the descendants of the 1919 titleholders. This means you have a situation where many people have the legal name "Baron von X", "Count von Y", "Prince von Z", etc. (and where incidentally there is no legal way of simply taking up such a name unless you acquire it by birth, marriage, or adoption), and where it is absolutely common practice to say of these people "so-and-so is a a baron / a count" etc. I have heard people say that and read people write it in post-1919-Germany for hundreds if not thousands of times, and everybody knows exactly what it means unless, like the poster above, they want to split hairs for teh sake of splitting hairs.

So the reason for not calling the protagonist of this article a baroness is not that nobody can be a German baroness, but rather that her husband's claim to being any such thing appears entirely spurious, and his name an invention of his own. There is no record anywhere of any German (or Austrian, or Dutch, Danish etc.) family of barons or simple nobles of this name (which, incidentally, looks suspiciously like the Anglo-respelling of a name that would have to be "Wiedenmann" with two ns in German), let alone of anything that could make this man an "heir to a Bavarian barony", because they are no Bavarian baronies; whenever the Kingdom of Bavaria granted the title of Baron, all male-line-descendants of the person to whom it was granted would automatically have the title from the moment of their birth. The idea of a barony which only a single holder could hold at a time is something drawn from the British (and French, etc.) peerage system which has no equivalent in Bavaria. It seems clear that Wiedenman, presumably an American with German ancestors, simply chose to invent himself a pseudo-noble family history (including adding the "von" to his name) at a time when Americans would have neither cared, nor had much of a chance of fact-checking it. 77.13.12.61 (talk) 19:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Only after writing the above reply did I notice a subsequent, unsigned & undated comment starting with "Cass was indeed married" etc., to which for whatever technical reason I cannot reply directly. Everything it contains though fits my above interpretation, and I absolutely agree with its conclusions. 77.13.12.61 (talk) 19:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Cass was indeed married for a few months to Donald von Wiedenman, who does indeed claim, repeatedly, to be a baron. The thing is, although the USA has never awarded titles of nobility and Germany does not award them anymore, those who derive from families who used to have them may continue to say so and to trade on them, as it were. However, in the second chapter of his book "Close Personal Friends," Wiedenman identifies himself as having a German background and of being "a third-generation American, born of solid peasant stock on both sides." Which makes his having any connection with German, Austrian, or other European nobility very unlikely. The book is available on Kindle, but I didn't feel like spending $9.99 to find out what his excuse for claiming the title could be. Going out on a limb here, but "baron" von Wiedenman seems to be rather full of himself and I have doubts about his honesty. And Cass was just starry-eyed enough to fall for the idea of marrying a baron.

Um… might not ‘Baron’ be his first name, rather than a title? I’m thinking here of Sacha Baron Cohen, aka Ali G. but there are other examples of ‘Baron’ as a forename. Just a thought.

References

Claims

I am concerned that this article overall has too many unreferenced claims, and there is too much nasty trivia, disguised as "urban legends" and "references in the media". I also think that this article should focus more on Cass and cut down on the Mamas and the Papas section with a pointer to the main article (which could use some work too) - for example, why is the main picture one of the group? Let's try to find an acceptable one of Cass. She had a powerful solo career, and she was a formidable presence in the group, so there should be more to say about her than details about Michelle's love life. Just my opinion, of course. Tvoz 00:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on one point: I think the entire "References to Cass Elliot in media" section should be tossed out. Most of it is pointless and does nothing to enlighten the reader as to Elliot's life and contributions.

However, the rest of the things you cite, I don't agree with. She did have a succesful solo career, and that is noted in the article. But the only way she got it was via the Mamas & the Papas. She did it after them, but being with them gave her the clout for a solo career. Michelle's love life and hers were intertwined because of the Mamas & Papas. You can't cover her love life without mentioning Michelle.

And, as for the main picture, photos are always a problem for Wikipedia. Finding one we can use is problematic because of copyright and such. However, when I viewed this article, the main picture was from the cover of solo album of hers. Only one photo in the article has the rest of the Mamas & the Papas. And it is appropriate—the Mamas & the Papas were a significant part of her professional life. — Frecklefoot | Talk 09:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Right - after I wrote the above I added the solo album cover photo as the main pic and moved the M&P pic down on the page to where it completely appropriately belongs. I don;t want to remove the M&P stuff -- of course it is central to Cass's bio -- I just think the emphasis is a bit skewed here. And yes, Michelle is totally relevant, but it seemed to me that this article went off a bit too much on what happened to Michelle and not enough about Cass. I'll read it again with your comments in mind and see if I still think so. But first I'm having breakfast! Tvoz 16:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The section "Urban legends" seems to have been vandalized: ...however the reason why no traces of ham sandwhich had been found may have been because Cass refused to give them up. Arriving on the scene Doctor Scummer Greenmould (a local GP) cited some items of ham in Cass's throat however when he tried to retrieve such items a battle ensued. After three hours of fighting the corpse, Greenmould gave up saying "Tell the fat cow she can keep it", to which the corpse of Cass replied "can you hand me the rest of the sandwhich?". Greenmould succumbed to his injuries three days later suffering from the loss of most his body organs to Cass who appeared to have eaten them. Thus it is impossible to tell what really happened that night however one of waiters at the hotel confirmed this story, Rennee Gough (now head waiter of the Abattoir Arms in Hull) sold his story to the Sun on the 1st January 2000 but sadly his computer was suffering from the Millenium bug and thus did not work. 84.216.58.196 18:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC) P-A Olsson, Sweden

This is offensive

Again, I'm finding all of this ham sandwich stuff offensive and demeaning to the article - the so-called "references in the media" section and the "urban legend" nonsense. Yes, I know that this is part of the story about her, so maybe one mention would be ok - at most that the mistaken report of her choking went on to fuel years of jokes - but it's starting to feel like a contest for who can find the most obnoxious and unimportant references to this woman's death. I haven't checked, but I'd bet that Abraham Lincoln doesn't include the joke that starts "But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...". Yeah, I know, not the same thing. Is this just me, or does anyone else find this somewhere between incredibly juvenile and very sick? And why is it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia???Tvoz 02:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, now I see that User:Frecklefoot had agreed with my earlier point on this - I missed that somehow - so does anyone have a good reason not to remove all of this nonsense? If not, I am going to do it unless someone else beats me to it. Tvoz 02:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree to the changes you made except one. You made it sound like John Phillips admitted that he made up the story about her being hit on the head and it changing her voice. He never admitted to making up the story. As a matter of fact, Ellot herself validated the story in a Rolling Stone article. Why would you remove that? I admit that having a pipe hit you on the head is a strange way to get a voice change, but since she admitted it, it should be left in. Other than that, I agree to the changes. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm sure I responded here but I must have forgotten to hit save. Let's see if I remember what I said. My reasoning is as follows: Cass's interview was in 1968, when the M&P were still more or less intact. Yes, she said it was true, but John's interview was in 1986, long after her death, and it sounds to me like he was indeed revealing the background truth of that story. I read (will look for the citation) that the reason he used that excuse as to why he had not originally let her in the group was because the real reason had nothing to do with her voice (which of course was spectacular with or without the 3 notes) but had to do with her weight, her look. I think I didn't put that in the piece because it may have been someone else's view of why JOhn made up the story - but I will check into this whole thing further in the next few days. But if you look back at the way our article read before my change, there was a clear implication that John had indeed said he made up the story. If that is in fact the truth, that he made up the story, the fact that she validated the story doesn't really mean anything - we don';t know what her motivation was. Maybe she knew the real reason for JOhn's making up the story (about her weight) and didn't want to validate that. This is speculation,of course, as much as the rest of this section is. So I tried to stick to the citable "facts". But by the way - as far as I'm concerned, the entire "pipe on the head" section could be removed from the article in its entirety, and I would be happy. I don't think it adds anything, any more than the ham sandwich. But the ham sandwich myth is so well-known that I guess it would be odd for it not to be alluded to. So - I'd say remove the whole pipe thing, but I won't do it yet, pending hearing from you and others here. Tvoz 09:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd read a bit on it elsewhere and I'm not sure. I read something where her sister said the whole "changing voice" thing was nonsense, but I don't think she denied that she had an accident. Possibly she did get hit by a pipe, but the result was ordinary. (Pain, a knot on the head, maybe brief unconsciousness) After that they decided to use that to build a legend/excuse.--T. Anthony 11:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That's how it seems to me too - I'm trying to get a copy of the video or a transcript of it to see if anything else is revealed - if not, I am inclined to remove the whole section. Tvoz | talk 06:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's offensive. It's been proven definitively that food did not play a role in Cass's death and the ham sandwich story is a cruel joke on a woman who made no bones about her weight problem. One thing i wonder, though: the article does not discuss drugs or alcohol, and I understand that Cass struggled with intermittent drinking and heroin use for much of the latter part of her life.Maccb (talk) 00:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

What if John told her the reason she now was in the band was that she could sing so much better. “A whole three notes better”. And then she was like “must’ve been from that pipe hitting my head”... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.150.103 (talk) 13:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Origin of the name

Denny Doherty's claim about the name, "The Mamas and the Papas" implies that this was the first occasion (1965) that Cass called herself "mama" but that is contradicted by the illustration just above of the album cover of "The Big Three" which was apparently issued in 1963. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.11 (talk • contribs)

Right you are! But Doherty himself says that his memory of the 60s is fuzzy, since everyone was doing so many drugs and such. But that is according to him anyway, and it is cited. You can express the contradiction, if you like, but we have to be careful about original research, so please provide a ref if you can. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 13:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

How much did she weigh?

How much did she weigh? The article makes no mention of this. Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.159.186 (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That's probably because people's weight isn't a matter of public record. If you can find a copy of her death certificate online, it probably mentions it, but otherwise you're out of luck. Denny Doherty in his retrospective show on The Mommas & the Papas said she weighed upward of 300 pounds, but that was just a guess on his part. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 18:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The death cert states she was obese, but does not state her weight. Death certificates in the England and Wales do not usually give any measurements of weight, height etc. Qzm (talk) 03:25, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

How many dreams?

"After the breakup of The Mamas & the Papas, Elliot went on to have a successful solo singing career. Her most successful recording during this period was 1968's Dream a Little Dream of Me from her solo album of the same name, released by Dunhill Records though it had originally been recorded for and released on the album The Papas & the Mamas Presented By The Mamas and the Papas earlier that year."

This isn't clear. Was the same recording issued on both albums or did she re-record it? BTLizard (talk) 13:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Adding pop culture reference - she was on Scooby Doo

As far a pop culture she was also a "guest star" on a Scooby Doo Movie "Haunted Candy Factory" 1973. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.112.8.123 (talk) 00:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Keith Moon coincidence

I agree of course that it's interesting that Moon died in the same flat as Elliot, but since it happened 4 years after her death, I don't believe it belongs in her biography. This coincidence obviously had no impact on her life or death - there's a good chance that he was aware that she had died in that flat, and if reliable sources say so it may of interest to his biography. But I don't see its relevance to hers - having a source for a statement does not mean it must be included. We don't say in Linda McCartney's biography, for example, that her widower went on to marry a woman who, coincidentally, had the same name as their daughter Heather. Interesting coincidence, perhaps, but irrelevant to Linda's biography as it happened years after her death and had nothing to do with her. Similarly, the fact that Moon was also 32 when he died is completely irrelevant to anything - but I see that wasn't reinstated, so good. I'd like to hear what others think, but I would like to remove this irrelevant coincidence again as I have in the past. For some reason this article has long been plagued with edits that are not encyclopedic - I've tried, in the 3.5 years I've been editing this article, to keep it on track without rumors and speculation, as is appropriate for an encyclopedia and this mystical coincidence seems to me to be out of place. Tvoz/talk 04:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply

I think that it part of the popular culture that surrounds her death. In the same way as the ham sandwich - people could reasonably come to this article in order to verify either of these two otherwise inconsequential points. The McCartney point is a straw-man.122.149.18.160 (talk) 22:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Cause of death

I also object to the inclusion of the purported death certificate or reference to "steatosis" - unless we have some 3rd party reporting about the discrepancy between what is claimed to be the death certificate and what was reported at the time, and unless some reliable source cites steatosis in connection with Elliot specifically, this is verging on original research and not allowable. The certificate can't be verified and we have not been given any source to support the supposition about cause of death. Tvoz/talk 07:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

How about this from Snopes? — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 16:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Those "three notes she couldn't reach" before the Pipe Incident

This is just an anecdote from memory and not really something for the encyclopedia article, but it may be of interest to Mama Cass fans: Michelle Philips mentioned in a radio interview a number of years ago that Cass had idolized Barbra Streisand, but would sometimes get a little depressed about not being able to hit some of the high notes that Streisand could easily manage. (Philips went on to observe that even if Cass didn't have Barbra's vocal range, Barbra couldn't do "warmth" like Cass could.) Anyway, the main point of Michelle Philips's anecdote was that even a singer who makes it look as effortless and easy as Cass Elliot did could still feel insecure about her vocal ability, so in my mind it does sort of tie in with the story that Cass's singing had somehow magically improved after she got hit on the head with a pipe. Throbert McGee (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Monday, Monday

To my knowledge, the lead vocal in Monday, Monday is Denny and not Cass - can anyone support me on this?Tjandspallan (talk) 20:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

The article doesn't say she was lead vocals for that song. It just said she provided some vocals in it. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 03:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Hotel Room Keys

I remember Denny Doherty said in a TV interview that Cass was terribly lonely, and he mentioned that at a show a guy in the audience called out "Cass - we love you" and Doherty felt Cass almost shouted back "I'm in room ... at the Hilton" and would have thrown her room key to the guy. I think this is a more likely version of the story in the article about the room keys being thrown on stage - also: most people at a concert are in or close to their home towns and are not in hotels. - Marco Schuffelen— Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcoSchuffelen (talk • contribs) 19:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Snuff Box

She is mentioned in Snuff Box. 86.16.194.235 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC).

3 not Three

As shown on the album cover, the group was The Big 3, not ..Three. As far as I know they always used the numeral in their name.76.199.5.100 (talk) 22:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I changed the references in this article to "The Big 3" and moved the article "The Big Three (folk group)" to the "The Big 3 (folk group)". --08:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistent typeface

I'm not sure why but there's a lot of serif fonts on the page. Even the Edit tabs up the top122.149.18.160 (talk) 22:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

You may have the Beta "Typography refresh" feature turned on. It does that: mixes serif fonts and sans-serif fonts. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:30, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

The Big 3 album cover

The album cover for The Big 3 must be a re-issue after the Mamas and the Papas (TMATP). It says "featuring Mama Cass Elliot", which she wasn't known as until after the formation of TMATP, which came after her association with The Big 3. Can anyone verify this? There isn't any info on the image page. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Exhaustion vs Diabetes

In the section Death it is written: "She was treated at a hospital and released, then dismissed the incident in interviews, including one on the American television talk show The Mike Douglas Show, as nothing more than exhaustion." However, Cass clearly states: "I hadn't eaten anything all day and my blood sugar level dropped and I sorta tipped over." On the Johnny Carson show she relates: "I had a very bad headache. I hadn't been able to eat anything all day. Mu blood sugar level dropped and I sorta tipped over." Nothing about exhaustion at all. The article states nothing about Cass's diabetes (which Cass knew she was), and this was the cause of it ... not exhaustion. This should be changed to reflect the correct reason for her collapse. (This is not OR, there are online transcripts, medical reports and interviews to support the claim). Would anyone mind if I corrected this; with inline citations / reliable sources? Maineartists (talk) 00:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Trivia in Death section

Under the death section is the wording:

Reynolds added that some guests at the party used cocaine and other hard drugs on an upper floor, to which Reynolds made sure her children, ages 17 and 16, did not go.[26] Jagger told Reynolds about the situation upstairs, adding that if her children stayed on the ground floor, they would be safe.[26] Because neither Reynolds nor her children saw who partook of the drugs, Elliot's presence at the party may be inconsequential in understanding her death.

The article plainly documents,"pathologist Keith Simpson, who conducted her autopsy, her death was due to "heart failure due to fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity". A drug screen that was part of the forensic autopsy revealed there were no drugs in her system." The Reynolds speculation is simply non notable trivia.

Also the inclusion of, "despite the fact that Reynolds saw other partygoers, including her son Todd, become intimate with strangers and leave the building with each other.[26]" is also trivia that has nothing to do with Cass Elliot. Ward20 (talk) 05:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

You are clearly correct and I removed the offending text. --hulmem (talk) 14:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Ward20. Maineartists (talk) 14:41, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Paloma Faith

What does this have anything to do with Cass Elliot? Television: "A cover version of Make Your own Kind of Music has been recorded by Paloma Faith which is featured in the Skoda advert: Driven By Something Different (2018), for their Karoq model car. Paloma Faith's cover version was released as a single and reached #28 on the UK single chart in May 2018." Maineartists (talk) 09:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Removing mention of the above. After researching, I cannot find any mention of "tribute" or "reference" except the connection by reviewers that Elliot once sang the song. Elliot did not write it; and Faith did not sing it in her honor or attribute it to her like all previous mentions in this sections to other musical works of Elliot by other performers. This is merely promotional in content to Faith. "Other popular culture references" does not mean listing every song that Elliot sang that has been recorded by other artists. If that were the case, the article would be inundated by listings of "Dream a Little Dream on Me". It means simply Elliot's reference in popular culture: i.e. "Lost" episode, "Dexter", etc. Unless someone can prove content inclusion by way of WP policy for this listing, or a direct reason by a reliable source by the artist for its tribute (and not a mere mention that Elliot once sang the song); it does not belong. It only opens the door for other, non-essential inclusions of song listings. Maineartists (talk) 13:52, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Unclear caption: which fourth floor - in US English or International English?

The caption on the photograph of the building where she died says she died on the "fourth floor" and "top left". Three different windows on two floors could match that description. It isn't clear because Americans, and much of the world count floors differently. Americans regard the floor literally at ground level as the "first floor." Most of the rest of the world calls that the "ground floor", and counts the floor above that (what Americans call the second floor) as the "first floor."

If the caption means fourth floor in British and international English, that could be Window A or Window B. (A is almost totally obscured by the angle). If it means fourth floor in American English, that would be Window C. The caption needs greater clarity on whether International English or American English floor counting is being used, and if the former, is it the window around the corner partly obscured by the trees, or the partially obscured window nearest to the photographer. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 02:51, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

File:MoonflatCurzonPlaceletteredjpgletters.jpg

This article should be US English, but local news reports of her death use GB English.... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Remains provenence

• http://www.casselliot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=794
• can somebody verify? ....0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Drug Use

Someone keeps moving the discussion of her use of heroin at her Las Vegas show to a section called "Drug Use."

Isolating her use of drugs at a time when everyone in her circle of musicians and singers seems ridiculous especially since drugs had no official role in her death

Though marijuana was illegal at the time it was ALSO culturally casual not just around the Laurel Canyon music crowd where she lived but with youth. It was not difficult to find or use, particularly since it could be easily grown. We don't need to be prudish about it.

Further, this belongs in the Las Vegas section where it originally appeared. Without it, that section reads like she was just sick and had tonsillitis. In fact she was strung out on heroin and couldn't perform. This explains why she and the show flopped after one day, how rumors of the heroin began to hurt her reputation and why she fell into a deep depression.

This should be a self-contained story. Stop separating it.

Redlemur (talk) 18:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Is including a urban legend relevant to a page or only sensationalizing false information?

Now that Elliot's cause of death is accurate, I am wondering what is the point of keeping the myth of the ham sandwich. This urban legend seems to stem from fatphobia and does not necessarily have anything to do with Elliot, but more about the need to sensationalize and make jokes about her death. I compared this to Richard Gere and his wiki page. His page does not include the infamous rumor/urban legend of the gerbil because those on his talk page stated that this is a encyclopedia and not a gossip column. Should the same thing be said for Elliot? Orangesky6791 (talk) 20:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

• I agree. The statement as it stands now is tabloid in its presentation. The entry is not included at WP List of urban legends so it is not notable. Second, the other urban legends associated with Cass' death (that she died from a drug overdose, that the FBI had plotted to assassinate her, that she was pregnant with John Lennon's child) are not included in this section. Yes, it may be the most popularized, but that does not mean it necessarily belongs in an encyclopedia. Perhaps if it were to be included in reference to Dr. Anthony Greenburgh's initial report: "From what I saw when I got to the flat, she appeared to have been eating a ham sandwich and drinking Coca-Cola while lying down — a very dangerous thing to do. This would be especially dangerous for someone like Cass who was overweight and who might be prone to having a heart attack. She seemed to have choked on a ham sandwich," thus generating the urban legend, then maybe, maybe, it might warrant inclusion. But not as it stands now. I vote to delete. Although I have a feeling it will continually be added since, sadly, this will forever remain linked to the singer. Maineartists (talk) 23:45, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we can keep it out of the article, as distasteful as it is. And it's downright ugly in the "Death" section. But it's a pre-Internet meme that is very well established, and perhaps could be fit somehow in the popular culture reference section instead? Other than that, I agree with Maineartists completely. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 06:52, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I first want to acknowledge that this page has come a long way and that it seems to be an uphill battle to keep this page accurate and rumors at bay. Based on Wiki's rules, Mainartists points and jpgordon's point this "urban legend," should at the very least not be in the death section. I know this is a very infamous rumor that has stand the test of time but that is not a valid reason to keep it on the page, at least in this section, especially when pages of other notable people do not include their infamous rumors. Also the ham sandwich rumor is in several youtube videos, tik toks, gossip sites...maybe that is the platform for that rumor.

However, like jpgordon and maineartists have pointed out people will most likely try to keep adding it so here are two suggestions on where to put this tidbit. Maybe if there was a section discussing (accurate and tasteful one,) that discussed Cass having to deal with discrimination and fatphobia maybe somehow tying in that even with the insults and discrimination she is still a celebrated musical artist. Not my favorite suggestion, but just an idea to put out there. My other suggestion is that there is a "Social Stigma of Obesity," page maybe that is where that rumor should go if there is room for it. This could be put in pop culture, but if so people might as well put in all the other rumors about her in, and then the page will be convoluted and something wiki is not.

I am at the least going to vote to get it out of the "Death," section, unless there is a better way of structuring the sentence. I was also looking at Kurt Cobain's main wiki page to see how they dealt with the rumors of his death, and it seems they handled it more on the respected side. With that said there is a whole page dedicated to his death, that list conspiracy theories, but it still seems focused on giving facts. A very different example but I wanted to put that out there, as we think about how to frame such information relating to Cass. Thoughts?

You both are right, this is probably a never ending battle but it is worth to keep this page accurate and respectable. Orangesky6791 (talk) 15:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

It looks as if an unregistered editor has removed the content. The problem with introducing any of the supposed "rumors" regarding Elliot's death in comparison to other main wiki pages such as Cobain's is that with Cobain there is factual evidence to back actual claims; even if they are considered "rumors", "ambiguities" or even "conspiracies". All the rumors surrounding Elliot's death are just that: rumors. All of which are not based in fact but are simply Tabloid-esque with a touch of sensationalism. I would not vote to introduce various rumors onto this page but I would vote to respectfully introduce any medical and law enforcement findings that would lead to possible misinterpretations of her death. The only connection to a plausible rumor that became mainstream and still exists today is the ham sandwich scenario which is directly linked with Dr. Anthony Greenburgh's initial report. By stating this report, it can easily be introduced in a respectful manner that due to this finding and subsequent release of statement it "gave rise" to what is now the infamous rumor that Elliot died by choking on a ham sandwich. Maineartists (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

"Due to speculation by the (some or another adjective) physician, Dr. Greenburgh, inaccurate rumours regarding her cause of death remain widespread." We don't have to go into any details about the rumors. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 23:25, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

My take is that if something is prominently reported by reliable sources it's not our job as editors to hide it. The New York Times recently (May 9 2024) published a long piece about Cass Elliot that treats this myth. It's at [4].

An excerpt:

For years, the origin of the story that Elliot died from choking on a ham sandwich — one of the cruelest and most persistent myths in rock ’n’ roll history — was largely unknown. Then in 2020, Elliot’s friend Sue Cameron, an entertainment journalist, admitted to publicizing it in her Hollywood Reporter obituary at the behest of Elliot’s manager Allan Carr, who did not want his client associated with drug use. (Elliot died of a heart attack, likely brought on by years of substance abuse and crash dieting.) But that cartoonish rumor — propagated in endless pop culture references, from “Austin Powers” to “Lost” — cast a tawdry light over Elliot’s legacy and still threatens to overshadow her mighty, underappreciated talent.

Claims that this is "not notable" seem to be overstated. Yes, this article should be respectful and factual. The fact is that lots of people believe this myth. A simple one sentence statement like "She did not die from choking on a sandwich, as a persistent popular myth claims." would be more than sufficient. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, now we know more precisely what happened, so we can say precisely what happened. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 18:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

OK. well what do you propose to say precisely what happened?

My reading of the Times article is that Elliot’s manager Allan Carr falsely claimed that she died from choking on a ham sandwich in order to "protect" her from the public thinking she had died from a drug overdose. This was repeated by reporter Sue Cameron in The Hollywood Reporter even though she knew at the time it was false. From the article:

Cameron heard about Elliot’s death in the newsroom of The Hollywood Reporter, where she was working at the time: “I kicked into professional mode and said, no one else is going to write that obit. I’m going to do it.” She tracked down Carr by phone in Nilsson’s apartment. “He could barely speak,” Cameron recalled. She asked what happened, and he said he didn’t know. “‘Oh, wait,’” she recalled him saying. “‘I see a half-eaten ham sandwich on the night stand. That’s good. You tell everybody that she choked on a ham sandwich, do you understand me?’”

“And I did it,” she added, “because I wanted to protect Cass.”

Agree with the editors above that we don't need to repeat every rumor about the subjects in our bio articles. But this isn't just a random rumor, it was presented as fact at the time. And it persists to this day, to the point that the Times titled their article:

Cass Elliot’s Death Spawned a Horrible Myth. She Deserves Better.

The Mamas & the Papas singer was known for her wit, her voice and her skill as a connector. For 50 years, a rumor has overshadowed her legacy.

Objections that this is somehow "not notable" in light of the Times article seems absurd. Agree that it's a distasteful and disrespectful aspersion, but Wikipedia is not censored. I just don't like it is not a viable argument. As the article now reads, it's like the dog that didn't bark. It's conspicuous in it's absence. The right thing to do here is address the false claim head on and say clearly that it is false.

I don't think we need a lot of detail - my editorial judgment is that one sentence will suffice and if our readers want more detail they can follow the cites. I don't understand why having it in the Death section makes it "ugly"; that seems like the obvious place to put a simple succinct statement clarifying that the "rumor" is false. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 22:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Mama

It’s not that she “reportedly hated the name” Mama. She said she hated it in the interview for which a reference is supplied. Nicmart (talk) 05:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Age at death

The article says born September 19, 1941 and died July 29, 1934 (age 31). Shouldn't that be age 32? Or maybe the dates are wrong? Ada42 (talk) 02:31, 7 June 2024 (UTC)