Talk:Charles Montier

Links, redirects, interwiki

I haven't yet looked for unlinked mentions of Montier on the English Wikipedia, so numbers here will likely increase. Certainly the number of links to Charles Montier will increase (currently 4 from articles, but he has a full paragraph in 1923 24 Hours of Le Mans, for example, and no link).

Redirects will be needed from Montier & Gillet (4 incoming links from articles), Charles Montier et Cie, Montier Special (also a useful search term).

Interwiki (presumably is taken care of by WikiData); leaving links here to help find references:

Charles Montier

• French
• German
• Polish
• Commons

Charles Montier et Cie

• German

--kingboyk (talk) 22:13, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done Interwiki was semi-manual - just had to associate with frwiki and the rest were picked up automatically due to the existing WikiData entry. Clever stuff! --kingboyk (talk) 07:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Look into

• "Non-renewal of his contract by Ford in 1934"
• Other people racing Montier cars

--kingboyk (talk) 03:37, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Any info on the Model A? Was that the basis of the Montier Specials entered into the Grand Prix? Model T ended production in 1927; Model A was produced between 1927 and 1931. The grand prix entries were 1930 to 1934 or 1935. --kingboyk (talk) 02:24, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

His son Ferdinand Montier also raced Montier Specials (a starting point is here), but I'm not sure we'd want to go into any great detail as this article is about Montier Senior and not the car or his son. Will perhaps squeeze in a reference. --kingboyk (talk) 06:19, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Done. Brief mention of Ferdinand added, with citations. He is wikilinked as he is presumed notable under WP:NMOTORSPORT #2. --kingboyk (talk) 06:27, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

The Montier Special entered into the Belgian Grand Prix (and presumably other grand prix) was indeed based on the Model A. Info and citation added. --kingboyk (talk) 08:34, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

There's at least one non-Montier driven Special in the Hill Climb Winners list I've referenced but don't think it worth mentioning in the article. I haven't found any mention of Montier cars appearing in notable races when not driven by either Charles or Ferdinand (or their co-drivers).

I'm fairly certain that Montier's relationship with Ford was terminated in 1934 but can't find a hard enough reference (I have no access to books or period newspapers/magazines). Again, I think it's not important. If anyone could add a reference for that and his retirement it might be nice.

I think my work here is  Done. --kingboyk (talk) 17:50, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:22, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Charles Montier raced a modified Ford Model T in the inaugural 24 Hours of Le Mans? Source: Inline citations
  • ALT1:... that Charles Montier modified a Ford Model T and raced it in the 1923 24 Hours of Le Mans?
  • ALT2:... that Charles Montier modified a Ford Model T and raced it in the inaugural 24 Hours of Le Mans?

• Comment: 15 million Ford Model Ts were manufactured, starting in 1908 - a mass produced car, for the masses. Henry Ford said "I will build a motor car for the great multitude... it will be so low in price that no man making a good salary will be unable to own one – and enjoy with his family the blessing of hours of pleasure in God's great open spaces". Charles Montier certainly enjoyed his Model T - by racing it in the 24 Hours of Le Mans, alongside Bentleys and Bugattis. He and his co-driver finished 14th of 37 entrants.
• Comment: Other hook suggestions welcome!

Created by Kingboyk (talk). Self-nominated at 08:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC).

• • ALT3: ... that Charles Montier raced a modified version of the mass-produced Ford Model T in the inaugural 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1923?

--kingboyk (talk) 02:43, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

• I think the hook needs something like 'raced a modified version of the popular/high-selling/mass produced etc.' Just to make it clear that the Model T wasn't an expected car to be raced at Le Mans. I know a little about cars so I got it, but if you didn't know what a Model T was it leaves the hook a little lacking? What do you think?

The Flying Spaghetti Monster! 13:16, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

• @The Flying Spaghetti Monster: I think you make an excellent point. Let me have some coffee and see what I can come up with! --kingboyk (talk) 00:14, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

• OK, I've done two things: 1) Added some info about the Model T to the article, including an extract from the Henry Ford quote I included in my comment above; 2) Added hook suggestion ALT3 here. I think The Flying Spaghetti Monster is absolutely right and if this submission is accepted we should go with ALT3 or a rewording thereof. I'm unsure of protocol so I've left the original hook suggestions in place rather than removed or striked (sp.?) them. Thank you again, The Flying Spaghetti Monster. --kingboyk (talk) 02:43, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

• Great, those changes look good and make the hook interesting enough for me. However, the article has three red links which, if I remember correctly, are not allowed on DyK pages. So if you could either create them, or if not notable enough just remove the link, then I'm happy to say this is ready from my point of view. (Although I should imagine you'll need another editor to give their opinion too as I'm fairly new to this). Update: I was wrong - it's just the hook that can't have redlinks. Although the article would be better without them anyway as standard I reckon. The Flying Spaghetti Monster! 12:26, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

• ​ Thanks. Montier's son Ferdinand is red-linked per WP:REDLINK as I believe he meets WP:GNG and WP:NMOTORSPORT and the infobox I have used has an entry for "notable relatives". He has other incoming links not added by me. I might yet knock up a short article on him to turn the link blue, although as he mostly entered the same races as his father (and without any great success) it might not be a terribly interesting article. It would be no great loss to remove the link if necessary and I await further guidance on that.

There are also some red links to non-championship Grand Prix races. These articles all have only one other incoming link, from their respective season's pages e.g. 1931 Casablanca Grand Prix is linked to from 1931 Grand Prix season but nowhere else in mainspace (not even from the article on the driver who won the race). I'm puzzled by this and it makes me wonder whether these non-Championship race report red links should be removed not just from Montier's article but from the season articles too... On the other hand I believe the races likely have enough sources and notability to be written about (whilst being far from certain it will ever happen) and I feel compelled by WP:REDLINK to link to them. I think I might have a solution, however: I could redirect these red links to their respective season reports and template them with Template:R with possibilities.

I'll attend to this asap; I have a few last minute additions to make first due to finding some additional sources after I thought the article was done! --kingboyk (talk) 04:01, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm all done and ready for review, except for the article on Ferdinand Montier which is in my sandbox and probably won't be completed until tomorrow. The reviewer can safely assume that link will turn blue shortly.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster are you intending to review this submission or were you just commenting? --kingboyk (talk) 15:40, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

• Just commenting my dude, got to re-familiarise myself with the criteria before I review. Good work on the red links and the new hook though - looks ready to me but will need a second opinion I think. The Flying Spaghetti Monster! 13:41, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

• Full review needed by new reviewer, as one who had said they would has not returned in over three weeks. (Note: while red links are not allowed in a DYK hook, there are no rules forbidding them in the nominated article.) BlueMoonset (talk) 19:52, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Just a quick comment, but I wonder if something else could be said about the Model T here. AFAIK mass-produced cars racing in Le Mans was not exactly uncommon during parts of its history (maybe someone more knowledgeable about Le Mans could correct me on this). Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 12:14, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't know (I'm a Formula 1 guy) but I don't see it as relevant. Montier raced the first mass-produced car, widely considered to be a farmers workhorse, in the first running of what is now the most prestigious endurance race in the world. That's the story. I think ALT3 conveys that. I am of course open to alternative hook suggestions. --kingboyk (talk) 01:14, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

If the tumbleweed here is simply because the article and/or hooks are not interesting please somebody just tell me me, and I will withdraw the nomination. --kingboyk (talk) 08:30, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Kingboyk, I think it's pretty neat, so here's a review to push this through at last:

The article was, at the time of nomination, new enough, and is well past the character requirement. There are no uncited facts within it, and as far as I can see nothing stands out as an unreliable source. No issues with verifiability or copyright (BLP doesn't apply), and no other tagged maintenance issues. The hook is interesting (racing a mass-produced car in any big-deal race is unusual enough to meet WP:POSA IMO). Finally, I only see one DYK credit, so QPQ is not required. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:15, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Assessment

@Kingboyk: as you requested over at my talk page I provided a quick review (I can go more detailed if you want) and it looks good. The one major(ish) thing missing from the article is race results tables. Soemthing like this would be sufficent. Adding this might be sufficent to up it to C class.
SSSB (talk) 09:55, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks SSSB, much appreciated. I'll look at adding a results table. Ideally I'd like to get the article to at least B-class, and time permitting, maybe even GA, so if you have a moment I would indeed be interested if you could expand on what else you might feel is missing or not up to standard. I'm not sure there's much more to add from the reference material available, but if I know what's wrong I can at least try to fix it.

There's no rush if you're busy as something has come up in real life at this end and I don't know if I'll be around or not for a while.

Again, thank you. --kingboyk (talk) 10:43, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@SSSB: Racing results added for Le Mans and the European Championship. Presumably we wouldn't want tables for the non-championship grand prix and I'm certain we wouldn't want them for the non-notable hill climbs and so on.

That said, I'd be happy to add a table for the non-championship grand prix and grandes epreuves, but I note that 1) DriverDB doesn't list them, 2) The articles for Louis Chiron, Albert Divo, and René Dreyfus don't have tables for these so I assume (perhaps rightly, perhaps wrongly) that we should only have tables for championship races. [Incidentally, French Wikipedia claims that Montier finished 3rd in the 1935 Orléans Circuit, but there are no citations and our article is red linked; I've not found any sources for this yet, so if I did add a table for "Non-Championship Grand Prix" it would not be labelled "Complete" :)]

I've also added some more information about the Model T and some additional references. --kingboyk (talk) 04:55, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Actually, http://www.kolumbus.fi/ have an article which covers the Orléans race. I was reluctant to cite them at first as I don't recognise the name as an established journal etc, but they're widely cited throughout the pre-war motorsport articles on Wikipedia and it appears their work is very well researched and well regarded so I now believe they qualify as a reliable source. --kingboyk (talk) 05:05, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

And it looks like I have more work to do, as there's more info about Montier on that site. --kingboyk (talk) 05:59, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to try and finish this today, and then I'll be asking for a reassessment. Please nobody reassess just yet as my late discovery of additional reliable sources means there is a little more work to do. --kingboyk (talk) 04:03, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

SSSB or anyone else who'd like to help: the article has been massively expanded since the first review, and I think I'm done; a new review would be appreciated.

Please note the link to Ferdinand Montier will be turning blue shortly; I'm just waiting on some help at Commons about whether some Public Domain photos I found can be uploaded. If they are allowed, one will be added here too. --kingboyk (talk) 17:59, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Grand Prix engines

engines: research from kolumbus unless stated:
1929 ?
1930-1931 3.3L S4 (Ford A) <ref name="belgium1931-Etzrodt"/>
1932 Picardy - still the 3.3L. La Baule (Ferdinand only) - TWO engines. Oh yes.
1933 (Ferdinand) Dieppe - Ford V8 http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp3311.htm#44  [plausible, as Ford were making a V8 as of 1932] La Baule double engined DNA http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp3312.htm#54
1934 Belgium  "based on a Ford V8" (just the engine, or was there a new chassis?). GP de l´U.M.F. doesn't say.
1935 Orleans = possibly double-engined. Lorraine: probably the V8.

--kingboyk (talk) 08:15, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Autosport forum thread

Whilst the forum thread itself of course cannot be referenced or considered a reliable source, it does appear to point to some other sources. It also has a discussion about whether the Montiers were French or Belgian, with the consensus appearing to be that they were indeed French. This is already established by the sources I have referenced, but at least one Wikipedia article had them listed as Belgian until SSSB corrected it. --kingboyk (talk) 08:54, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Navboxes

None of been added because judging by such articles as Tom Kristensen (racing driver) and Rudolf Caracciola the navboxes ought to include the article they appear on (correct me if I'm wrong). Montier isn't on any templates as he didn't win anything ;)

I'm content that we have an adequate number of links in the article already which would satiate the appetite of even the most interested reader. --kingboyk (talk) 07:54, 2 February 2020 (UTC)