Talk:Dari/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Banning of Dari/Farsi from regions of Pakistan

I was wondering why the issue of the banning of Dari/Farsi by British colonialists, particularly in certain parts of the world under their control was not mentioned in the article, which I think is an important aspect of the history and challenges faced by the said language. Many notable poets and couplets in Dari/Persian where developed particularly in the region of Pakistan. Dari/Persian languages where used in the lands east of Afghanistan up to the province of Panjab and Sindh of Pakistan, where it was used as the official lingua franca till the early 1900's when the British decided to ban the language and replace it with Urdu so that the newly conquered region could be better integrated with the rest of South Asia and more importantly, to remove the historic and traditional influence Dari/Persia had the regions that make up Pakistan(A country where the number of speakers is still estimated at >2-3 million). I mention this because I think its an important issue as the Dari/Farsi language has faced many challenges and the language issue is still an important factor in countries especially like the aforementioned Pakistan which are still struggling to cope with the changes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.164.238 (talk) 01:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Could you cite your sources? You made many statements, but we can only put this in the article if we have sources. And in addition, I believe from statistics the majority of those 3 million Persian speakers were refugees from Afghanistan. As for as Persian being a lingua franca, it was common in both Pakistan. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 01:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I know that Dari was spoken up until the time of the Anglo-Panjab(Sikh) wars. Its decline and recent historical banning is well documented by the British. While Dari did not have such a strong presence in parts of india due to the heavy influence of native indian tongues and sanskrit, Dari was used extensively in Pakistan even up until 1947 where most of the property legal papers, marriage certificates and government documents were still written in Dari. Its a shame that most Pakistani dont realize that.

Proposed split

• Oppose While the idea may have merit, the suggested names of the articles are so POV as to be untenable. Discussing the old court language Dari, including its use by more modern authors, is not a bad idea. Similarly, discussing the archaic forms of the language that have persisted in the hinterlands of Afghanistan in contrast to the new modern Persian spoken in Teheran is a good idea. Are these two discussions related? Yes, even some of the preserved forms are the same. Are these two discussions the same? No. Are two articles needed? Only if this one becomes too long. First let us write this existing article well, with proper distinctions and without proscription. --Bejnar (talk) 05:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

If you only have problem with the proposed titles of those two pages, you can discuss that and suggest two other names. The important thing is that this article is about two different topics. For the Early New Persian, we should have an article like the Iranica article on "Dari". Although in terms of phonology, the modern variety of Persian in Afghanistan is somehow closer to the court accent of 1000 years ago, most of the differences of the modern varieties of Persian language is related to other issues (like the loanword) and is not much related to the Early New Persian. If we insist on putting these two different topic together in this page, it would be very hard to improve its quality and it will remain with a low quality (like the way it is now). Alefbe (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

---

• Agree I agree with the idea of split. The Persian variant being currently spoken in Afghanistan should be referred to as "Afghan Persian". Just as we say "Iranian Persian" and "Tajik Persian". "Dari Persian" is a historical name and its meaning is beyond modern-day Afghanistan. @Bejnar: The archaic forms of the language are still spoken in many cities of today Khorasan, where Afghanistan historically belongs to (Greater Khorasan). It is not true to say it has only persisted in Afghanistan. "Dari Persian" is by no means a proper name for distinguishing the Persian variant of Afghanistan from the other two main variants, no matter if it is politically publicized (no place for politics in language study). We should have two different articles: one for Afghan Persian, the present-day variant of Persian spoken in Afghanistan and one for Dari Persian, which is a historical name and refers to the language form used (especially) in literary works by authors of many different regions (including but not exclusively modern-day Afghanistan). Confining "Dari Persian" to "Afghan Persian" is not only wrong but also offensive to the Persian speakers of other regions. "Dari Persian" has developed in many regions and not only Khorasan (Shiraz, for example). --Alijsh (talk) 18:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
• Comment Honestly, what we need for the Wikipedia pages is a better and more thorough explanation of the many Persian dialects which cover Iran and Afghanistan. We should also not confuse the fact that the term "Dari" has at least three meanings. First, Dari refers to the official literary Persian dialect of Afghanistan. Second, Dari referred to the Persian language of the court in various locations. Third, Dari refers to the Central Iran dialect of the Zoroastrians of Yazd and Kerman. Now, do the Persian dialects of Afghanistan form a genetic unit that deserves its own page or should we just create a page for all Persian dialects? Is there a simple Eastern/Western division of Persian? Where are the academic sources with data that show this? Azalea pomp (talk) 23:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Dari refers to different things and the disambiguation should be done in the disambiguation page. The content of this page should split to two different pages: the literary form of Early New Persian (as explained by Lazard in the the Iranica article on "Dari") and the modern literary variety of Persian in Afghanistan. The Persian dialects of Afghanistan (including Hazaragi and Aymaq) is a third topic (not directly related to this page), and whether it should be covered in separate page or it's just enough to be covered in dialects of Persian language, that's a different question. Nowadays, Dari sometimes also refer to the Kabuli accent of Persian. That can also be mentioned in the disambiguation page (that topic, as well as other accents like Herati, also need separate articles). Alefbe (talk) 02:12, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you it should be split due to the different meanings: 1. literary form of Early New Persian. 2. Modern literary variety of Persian in Afghanistan. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• Agree I have no opinion concerning the names of the two split articles, but there definitely needs to be two different articles. I agree with Alefbe's comments. –jonsafari (talk) 19:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
• Agree, it comes down to the fact that the term Dari in the past and the term Dari as understood by scholars today is large enough to qualify for a different article. In addition, the term Dari itself for the Persian language in Afghanistan is controversial. The details can be sorted out at a later date. --Afghana ^[talk] 06:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
• Agree - I also suggest to separate the article Persian language from Persian dialects of Iran. The classical court language "Dari" should be discussed in Persian language. A separate article is not needed. Tajik (talk) 01:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Pan-iranism

Some of this writing seems to fall under a sad pan-Iranist persuasion. Hopefully we can fix this over time. --Enzuru 22:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit, because it falsified the attached source, though I am sure it was not intended. The source actually says: "... The ancient term Darī was revived in the Afghan constitution of 1964, and was intended to signify that Afghans consider their country the cradle of the language. Hence, the name Fārsī, the language of Fārs, is strictly avoided. ..." Naming the Persian dialects of Afghanistan "Dari" is in fact a political move by the government in Kabul to alienate the Persian-speakers of Afghanistan from those in Iran. Tājik (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I understand, I didn't delete any sources by the way (I even read that Iranica source), I just added two. And, the naming issue may have been a political move, however, it is a separate dialect by all means, however we both agree it isn't a separate or mutually unintelligible language from Persian. --Enzuru 20:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe we can find a better wording for the intro, mentioning both the "politicization" of the name as well as the fact that people in Afghanistan speak dialects different from those in Iran. (Please not that there is not "one dialect" spoken in Afghanistan, but many, just as in Iran. "Kabuli" differs from "Herati" as much as it differs from "Tehrani", "Hazaragi" or "Rashti"). Tājik (talk) 21:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Write up a rough draft and I'll make corrections where I see fit. I think if I do the rough draft it'll come out too much to your disliking. --Enzuru 23:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

;-) Don't worry. Go ahead and try your best. I think your English is better than mine. Tājik (talk) 00:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I think promoted should work. --Enzuru 20:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I think that this is a good consensus, as it mentions that (a) the word is recognized by the Afghan government and (b) that it is - as opposed to "Farsi" - also promoted. Tājik (talk) 00:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand the relevance of the name to the existence of notable distinguishing traits which merit its categorisation as a mutually-intelligible dialect of Parsi. The political connotations of its naming are neither here nor there. As for the existence of dialects within Dari itself, presumably they bear greater resemblance to one another than any resembles the form spoken in Iran, therefore one cannot argue that it is not a dialect.

I Agree, Pan-iranians have even engulfed the pashtun articles also spreading false lies against the pashtuns distoring their 6,000 year history not mentioning all the afghanistan articles that are written by "fresh out of iran influenced" tajiks and persians even the real tajiks never associate their history with persians. 76.103.37.61 (talk) 02:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)pashtun786

Differences between Iranian Persian and Dari Persian - phonology

"Archaic" is not commonly used in modern linguistic discussion; I suggest "conservative". We may characterise the standard literary pronunciation (at least the way I was taught it in Kabul) as "conservative", but I'm not sure that could be said about various colloquial varieties of Eastern Persian. They often show quite a few innovations in their phonology, some of which are similar to Tehrani Persian, such as aw > ow in some words. Jakob37 (talk) 05:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way, there is some terrible grammar here: "The principal differences between..Iranian Persian...and Afghan Dari...are:

1. the absence of the.."majhul" vowels in Iranian Persian... still kept separate in Afghan Persian, have merged..."

So, does the sentence begin as "The principal differences...are...the absence of" etc. If so, how can "the absence of" be the predicate of "The principal differences", since "have merged" must have a subject. What is its subject?! "the.."majhul" vowels" ? But that's part of the previous sentence. I think you need a which in there somewhere.. Jakob37 (talk) 10:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The high short vowels "i" and "u" tend to be lowered in Iranian Persian, as "e" (similar to "i" in Engl. "fit", "hit"), and "o" (as in Brit. Engl. "Ron"),

Is the material in parentheses supposed to be describing the Tehrani sound? In that case shouldn't it be "similar to the vowel in "wreck" "-- or perhaps a shortened "rake" ? (I'm not that familiar with the details of Tehrani accent) --- generally speaking, this section should have items saying, Tehrani is such-and-such, whereas Kabuli is such-and-such, but in number 3, 6 and 7 your statements are not complete. And especially for #3, some reference would be helpful. I suggested Morgenstierne before, but Farhadi uses "e" and "o" for the short vowels---why?Jakob37 (talk) 00:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Removed following unsourced claim

"It is also believed by some that Dari Persian should not be called Afghanistani Persian, because it already existed centuries before the creation of Afghanistan, or the use of the word Afghanistani."

Frankly, I don't believe a source exists to support this statement. The founding of the modern nation of Afghanistan has no bearing on the name Afghanistan, and according to the Afghanistan article right here on wikipedia, the word Afghan has a recorded usage dating to antiquity in the form of 'Avagani'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.91.195 (talk) 20:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Errors in the Persian Dari article

I have tried several times to correct these errors, but they have been repeatedly returned to their erroneous state. First, the language is Persian Dari, not Dari Persian. Persian is not a language, it is a language group. Dari is a language. Therefore "Persian", the adjective, comes before "Dari", the noun. Remember that this is written in English, not Dari (In Dari adjective follow the noun). Also, in the grammar section it is written that the verb "to have" (داشتن) is used for simple present tense. This sentence construction is usable, but not even remotely common. It is a very rare and odd way to speak, and therefore should not be cited as the only way that Dari and Farsi are constructed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodwa4 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You appear to have contradicted your own argument a few times. Firstly, Persian is a language, not a language group. The language group it belongs to is the Southwestern branch of the (Indo-)Iranian language family. Indeed, of all the Iranian languages, it is arguably the most prominent, so I'm puzzled by this elementary misunderstanding. Secondly, Farsiye Dari translates as Dari Persian, full stop. Persian is the language, and Dari is the form/dialect in question. Adjectives do indeed follow nouns, as is arguably the case in most or all Iranian languages. Thus as Farsi is the noun, Dari is the adjective. I hope this quells the internal torment you've presumably experienced for the past 2 years :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.91.195 (talk) 21:11, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Shumā khub astin? vs. Shomā khub hastin?

Can someone please remove this example? It's not correct. There is actually more than one variety of Dari and the examples don't reflect the pronunciation properly of any of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.218.59 (talk) 07:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

"Eastern Persian" is inaccurate

The term used in the title of the article (Eastern Persian) is inaccurate. I could not find any academic or scholarly source which denotes Dari (the variation of Persian in Afghanistan) as Eastern Persian. Here, the word "eastern" refers to the geographical section of the Greater Iran, and the wikipedia user who changed the old title to the current one thought that since Afghanistan lies in the eastern portion, therefore Dari is the Eastern Persian. However, in the linguistics, the classification of a language is way more complicated than that. Persian relates to the Southwestern Iranian languages. By writing "Eastern Persian", the reader confuses it with the classification of the language.

Apparently the user who changed the title or moved the article did not discuss it in the discussion. I looked in the archives too, but I could not find his/her reasons. Since the move was not discussed earlier, I will change the title back to Dari (Persian). Ariana (talk) 11:15, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

In terms of phonological developments, and probably lexicon too (e.g buzurg vs. kal̄an), it is legitimate to speak of Eastern vs. Western Persian, with the former including not only varieties in Afghanistan but also Tajikistan and also the kind of Persian used in Pakistan and India. The above writer is confusing "Eastern Persian" with "Eastern Iranian". Parthian, for example, was a Western Iranian language, but spoken in the eastern parts of Iran. The above writer should not confuse Iranian with Persian, although I'm sure that equation is quite common in Iran itself.Jakob37 (talk) 11:40, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I am not confusing "Eastern Persian" with "Eastern Iranian", but it confuses the readers. Anyone who sees the word Eastern beside Persian will think that it refers to the classification of the Persian language, while that's not the case; it is only an unacademic term (probably coined by a wikipedia editor/user ?) which refers to the Geographical position of the region where Dari is spoken. If you can present an academic or scholarly source which has used the term "Eastern Persian", I will have no problem with that. But I am afraid there isn't any. Ariana (talk) 13:04, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

As for a scholarly source, how about the well-known handbook Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum p. 289 (Lazard's article); besides that, I notice the term "Eastern Persian" has quite a few hits in Google. By the way, I don't think the "average reader" is more attuned to Stammbaum classification schemes than to the realities of modern linguistic geography. With phrases such as "Anyone....will think..." I find your writing to be too vehement sometimes...Jakob37 (talk) 10:54, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you talking about his French article titled "Le persan"?? Can you please quote/cite me his exact sentence in French? that you have translated it to "Eastern Persian". Thanks. No, in google you find only mirror websites who show the wikipedia articles, and thus the old title Dari (Eastern Persian). Ariana (talk) 13:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

In section 4.1.1.3.2.1 - middle of first paragraph: "Il semble qu'on doive distinguer deux grands groups...." "It appears that one should distinguish two major dialectal groups, western and eastern, separated by the region of deserts in the middle: therefore the speech varieties of Iranian Khorassan belong to the eastern type. This type distinguishes itself from the western group by a more conservative vocalism...(details)...and by the use of certain words...(examples)." In the other major non-Russian handbook of Iranian linguistics, the Iranian Languages Windfuhr's article on Persian has some similar, if less concise remarks on eastern vs. western Persian. Since I was a speaker of eastern Persian (Kabul) when I was younger, and also knew how Persian is pronounced in Urdu, I was very aware of the differences with the more popular Tehrani Persian.Jakob37 (talk) 01:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

But he did not use explicitly the term "Eastern Persian" and "Western Persian (or something like "Persan oriental et Persan occidental" or "Persan de l'est et Persan de l'ouest"). He just said "il y a deux grands groupes dialectaux; occidental et oriental". In addition, he was strictly talking about the modern boundaries of Iran and not of Greater Iran; he was comparing the Khorasanian dialect of Persian in Iran to other dialects of Persian in the western areas of Iran. He did not even mention Afghanistan and Tajikistan. So the Eastern Persian terminology is your own personal conclusion from his sentence. But anyhow, we can keep the "Easter Persian" in the article, but not in the title. Ariana (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed deliberately misleading sentence

The following was removed: Only in the Pamir Mountains there are still pockets of speakers of East Iranian languages left, such as Shughni, Sarikoli, Yazgulami, and Sanglechi-Ishkashmi, thanks to their relative isolation.

The fact that the largest extant and most obvious East-Iranian language, Pakhto/Pashto, (and dialects of such, as, e.g., Waziri is, etc) is ommited seems very strange since we are dealing with an article about a language (Dari Persian in this case) of Afghanistan rather than Tajikistan where mention of the "Pamiri" groups would be more obvious.--Jhelyam (talk) 09:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

A. Pisowicz, Origins of the New and Middle Persian phonological systems (Cracow 1985),

Does anyone know where to get this book from. I searched in the internet but i could not find any available. It is cited under footnote 21 in this Dari Persian article. I'm especially interesteed in the vowels chapter(s) in this book, if there are any. Maybe the person who cited this book has an idea where to get it from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.188.18.78 (talk) 08:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal

All the linguistics knows that Dari (Eastern Persian), Farsi, Tajiki are the same language but different names and as every languages there are different dialects in each one (such as English and other languages). I invite you to discuss about Merging these 3 languages in one with all the names we all called it and name each ones as a dialect with a separated page. So, in first step, I propose that Dari (Eastern Persian) be merged into Persian language with its name as Dari enlisted on the introduction info on that page. Please, come to the talk:Persian language page and discuss about it.P. Pajouhesh (talk) 09:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Do people not understand that it is and was always Farsi and was called this way in the constitution of Afghanistan until 1964 as the Cable from the US Embassy of kabul shows. In the beginning of the 1960's there was a political movement based on a fascist ideology to Pashtunize (Afghanize) Afghanistan and alienate its Persian People from their neighbours in Iran. Both countries newly created, Afghanistan officially under this name in 1893 and Iran in 1935 both countries offsprings of the Persian Empire and its eastern State of Greater Khorasan. Since the Pashtun (Afghans) were made the ruling class supported by the British like Karzai is made and supported by the USA, this country was under the racist dominance of the PAshtuns changing bit by bit through propaganda the Persian identity of the Persians of Afghanistan namely the Tajik who are Samanid Persians as its historically widely known. As a matter of fact, Tajikistan has a revival of its history and its Persian Culture is being promoted all over Tajikistan. The Tajiks who are the Persian speakers of Afghanistan were never asked if they want to change the name of their language from Farsi to Dari in 1964. No, the Pashtun dominated Parliament with the new political movement called Afghan Mellat were behind it and pushed it through. It's as easy as to give the example of many other languages, in newly created countries from the past century, in Switzerland one calls it German, with the emphasize on "swiss german", another example is Italian and French, which are named in Switzerland French and Italian, but with the remark of swiss to categorize the dialect. There's no racism in those countries and no falsification through propaganda from a ruling class which wants to make and take hostage a people by renaming their heritage and claiming it for themselves as their language is considered inferior in literature and history. It doesn't need science here to understand why the Parliament changed it in 1964 and before it was simply called Farsi ! And the brainwashing propaganda started back then. It is very easy to influence a people when illiteracy is above 85 %. Like the famous saying, when one repeats a lie over and over again, it becomes the truth eventually. That is the fact for this fraudulent name made up by NON Farsi speakers calling it "Dari" !! No wonder Afghanistan is in ruins when the Pashtun have no other agenda than trying to undermine its historical facts because of their inferiority complex towards the Persian Race and its speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added 22:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• This request was irregularly formatted. The discussion at Talk:Persian language only got one response and was archived. Further discussion should take place here; I've updated the templates accordingly. --BDD (talk) 20:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Agree with Florian here --Tito Dutta ✉ 12:35, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing problem

Using Encyclopedia Brittanica as a reference is not OK; we need to find more specific sources. -- Beland (talk) 19:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC) Do people not understand that it is and was always Farsi and was called this way in the constitution of Afghanistan until 1964 as the Cable from the US Embassy of kabul shows. In the beginning of the 1960's there was a political movement based on a fascist ideology to Pashtunize (Afghanize) Afghanistan and alienate its Persian People from their neighbours in Iran. Both countries newly created, Afghanistan officially under this name in 1893 and Iran in 1935 both countries offsprings of the Persian Empire and its eastern State of Greater Khorasan. Since the Pashtun (Afghans) were made the ruling class supported by the British like Karzai is made and supported by the USA, this country was under the racist dominance of the PAshtuns changing bit by bit through propaganda the Persian identity of the Persians of Afghanistan namely the Tajik who are Samanid Persians as its historically widely known. As a matter of fact, Tajikistan has a revival of its history and its Persian Culture is being promoted all over Tajikistan. The Tajiks who are the Persian speakers of Afghanistan were never asked if they want to change the name of their language from Farsi to Dari in 1964. No, the Pashtun dominated Parliament with the new political movement called Afghan Mellat were behind it and pushed it through. It's as easy as to give the example of many other languages, in newly created countries from the past century, in Switzerland one calls it German, with the emphasize on "swiss german", another example is Italian and French, which are named in Switzerland French and Italian, but with the remark of swiss to categorize the dialect. There's no racism in those countries and no falsification through propaganda from a ruling class which wants to make and take hostage a people by renaming their heritage and claiming it for themselves as their language is considered inferior in literature and history. It doesn't need science here to understand why the Parliament changed it in 1964 and before it was simply called Farsi ! And the brainwashing propaganda started back then. It is very easy to influence a people when illiteracy is above 85 %. Like the famous saying, when one repeats a lie over and over again, it becomes the truth eventually. That is the fact for this fraudulent name made up by NON Farsi speakers calling it "Dari" !! No wonder Afghanistan is in ruins when the Pashtun have no other agenda than trying to undermine its historical facts because of their inferiority complex towards the Persian Race and its speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.79.24 (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Dari Persian

Per Iranica definition, Dari-Persian is the name of the new Persian languageLazard, G. "Darī – The New Persian Literary Language", in Encyclopædia Iranica, Online Edition 2006. Another article for Afghan Persian needs to be created. --74.96.169.227 (talk) 04:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

The other article Dari-Persian was moved to Afghan Persian which should have been this former article. --74.96.169.227 (talk) 04:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Redirects and reversions: avoiding an edit war

Hi there. It seems we have a potential edit war brewing here. I've reverted to a non-redirect version of this article for the time being. The problem is that this page was set to redirect to Persian language without any of its content being copied there. If we reach a consensus to redirect it, unless we also conclude that this page's content is useless (which I highly doubt we will), then we need to merge this into the other article, as opposed to simply blanking it. — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 05:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Dari-Persian should be moved to New Persian

This former page's content is not useless.. for some wrong reason Afghan-Persian was redirected to New Persian and Dari-Persian to Afghan Persian. It simply has to be switched based on scholarly references:[1]. So what I did was move the contents of this page to Afghan-Persian and then redirected this page to new Persian. This is based on conventional scholarly sources..for example:

• Lazard, Gilbert 1975, "The Rise of the New Persian Language" in Frye, R. N., The Cambridge History of Iran, Vol. 4, pp. 595–632, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. "The language known as New Persian, which usually is called at this period (early Islamic times) by the name of Dari or Farsi-Dari, can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids. Unlike the other languages and dialects, ancient and modern, of the Iranian group such as Avestan, Parthian, Soghdian, Kurdish, Balochi, Pashto, etc., Old Middle and New Persian represent one and the same language at three states of its history. It had its origin in Fars (the true Persian country from the historical point of view) and is differentiated by dialectical features, still easily recognizable from the dialect prevailing in north-western and eastern Iran."

So all I did was switch the contents of two articles: 1) Afghan-Persian to what was Dari-Persian (it was formerly directed to New Persian) 2) Dari-Persian redirected to New Persian

I hope that is made clear by these edits. Encyclopaedia Iranica is the best source on the subject and Dari is just a name for New Persian in that Encyclopaedia. --74.96.169.227 (talk) 06:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Since I was reverted, and asked to wait for a concensus..I am leaving this on the talkpage..if there are no objections within a few days, I hope the redirect can be made. Note the former content of the page is useful but for an article on Afghan-Persian. However, "Dari-Persian" is a historical name for modern new Persian, and Afghan-Persian is a subset ( a dialect) of this New Persian (Dari-Persian). --74.96.169.227 (talk) 06:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Since the Afghan government refers to the language as "Dari," and since Wikipedia generally prefers to use endonyms rather than exonyms, I think the best title for this page would be "Dari (Persian dialect)"; you could then say at the top of the page:

This article is about the dialect of Persian spoken in Afghanistan. For the language group of which it is a part, which has also historically been called "Dari" or "Dari Persian," please see Persian language.

And, of course, you'd keep the note on this article saying that Dari is what the Afghan government prefers to call the language that many outside sources call "Afghan Persian" (which I've set to redirect here). In the Middle East, many movements like to use historical names (Palestine, Iran, Israel, etc.), and the general Wikipedia policy, I believe, is to respect this, but to also note these names' broader historical meanings. — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 06:34, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks that sound good enough then..--74.96.169.227 (talk) 20:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Since no editors have voice opposition, then, I'll implement these changes. If any editors do object, please raise those points here before reverting me. Thanks. — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 21:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Done! Don't think I missed anything redirect-wise or hatnote-wise, but if I did, please tell me. — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 21:58, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks..I would have preferred Dari Persian to redirect to Dari ambigious..but this works fine. Thanks for your help..I undid myself in another article --74.96.169.227 (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, you undid my revision. I've already handled all of the redirects; you don't need to do anything. As for the Dari Persian redirect, my rationale was that pretty much anyone looking for the Persian language article will just search for "Persian" or "Persian language," whereas someone looking for the Dari/Afghan Persian article could conceivably search for "Dari Persian," whereas I just don't see someone doing that when looking for the Persian language article. But either way, that's why I put the note at the top of this page. — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 03:40, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

It is fake to categorise Dari and Farsi as different dialects

Dear Reader

There is a need a clarify this misconception that Farsi and Dari are two different Persian language dialects. This idea is purely politically-motivated and came to existence only since late 1970s by Afghan nationalistic movement which took shape in the spirit and ideology of Afghanistan government. Of course historically till very recent time before that decade the name Dari was only applied to more litrary form of Farsi language used by our writers and poets in both Iran and current day Afghanistan or Transoxania. Obviously Afghan nationalism always tried to distance itself from country's vast Persian heritage and replace it with Pashton identity which is synonymous for Afghan. So challenging and segregating our widely spoken language i.e. Farsi from our neighbouring nations was their first target to achieve by applying this new name- Dari. Of course in masses conversation most people in Afghanistan dont call their language Dari, they simply call it Farsi or Parsi which is the regional name for Persian. The above distinction only exists as far as the fomalities are concerned otherwise it is only a fake entity.

The dialect difference of Persian language in Afghanistan and Iran or Tajikistan by no means differ more widely than the dialect difference between Mashad in eastern Iran to Kurdistan to its west, or Badakhshan in east Afghanistan to Herat to its west.

If I said the above in 1970s inside Afghanistan my place would have been in prison if allowed to live. But thanks to freedom we have today specialy the freedom on the net so we can freely express the truth.

To give examples supporting above arguements: two most famous poets from Iranic town of Shiraz in middle ages are Sa'adi Shirazi and Hafiz Shirazi. They both regarded and named the language of their poetery books as Dari in more than one occasion i.e. referring to their litrary glory. Similarly the mainstream language school books in use in Afghanisttan till mid 1960 were clearly titled Qera'at e Farsi meaning Farsi reading.

We need to respect and uphold the truth at whatever cost it may be. As only this way we can serve our common purpose of achieving hormony and a real peace! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.68.168 (talk) 11:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks anonymous. You're right. It is just a variant of Persian. I had talked about it and naming the language variants here: Talk:Tajik_Persian#Tajikistani_Persian (please read it), which fortunately ended in renaming the article to "Tajik Persian". I proposed there to also rename this article to "Afghan Persian" if it supposed to be about the Persian variant spoken in Afghanistan. "Dari" is a historical name and should not be used for what is spoken today in Afghanistan. It's a special name. — «most people in Afghanistan dont call their language Dari, they simply call it Farsi or Parsi» — It is quite logical that dear people in Afghanistan call their language so. I didn't expect otherwise. What they speak is "Persian" too. I hope Wikipedia would help us in letting the world people know about the better convention for naming Persian variants.-Piruz bâŝid.--Alijsh (talk) 12:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, the name Dari is used for one of the languages currently spoken in Afghanistan, and so used by the government of Afghanistan. Second, Persian is not one language, Persian is a collection of languages. Whether the language spoken in Kabul (Kabuli) is a dialect or a separate language from any other given language is for non-political linguists to determine. And even linguists disagree about when a dialect becomes a language. There is not a uniformly agreed upon set of tests, including mutual intelligibility. Lastly, the Wikipedia does not proscribe, it reports. --Bejnar (talk) 04:54, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I am totally agree that Farsi is our language name and Tajiki and Dary are just names of dialects not language and putting deference between Farsi and Dari is just a very strong political movement by British and US with Pashtoons just to destroy Farsi to replace it with English like all other deceived countries like Pakistan, India, some African countries ... and and i want to let you know that if an Iranian or Tajikistani talks to me i never ever need a translator in between to help us, so it means that Farsi = Dari = Tajiki and there is no any deference in between. Thank you Elyas from Kaubl — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.63.225.14 (talk) 03:17, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

old out of copyright sources on Dari

https://archive.org/details/azu_acku_pk6874_qaaf42_1365

https://archive.org/details/GrammaireDuKaboli

Higher Persian grammar for the use of the Calcutta University, showing differences between Afgan and modern Persian; with notes on rhetoric (1919)

https://archive.org/details/higherpersiangra00philuoft

Rajmaan (talk) 20:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism to the article

I see some vandalism in the history section of the article, and there may be more too. For example it says stuff about 'cakesoldier' and the 'Al Pacino' dynasty. We should get these things fixed. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.100.102 (talk) 05:33, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Spread of Dari in Central Asia

http://books.google.com/books?id=I3mVUEzm8xMC&pg=PA127#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=qcPZ1k65pqkC&pg=PA255#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=3coojMwTKU8C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 03:24, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

RFC

For the past few weeks, some editors have been replacing Dari (Persian dialect) with Persian, even though both this page and the Afghanistan page list Dari as the official name. Please weigh in on the issue at Talk:Languages_of_Afghanistan#More_edit-warring_on_the_languages. Thanks. Aristophanes68 (talk) 15:24, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page, per the discussion below, with a new hatnote for Dari language (Zoroastrian). Dekimasuよ! 23:04, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

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Dari (Persian dialect) → Dari language – According to the Constitution of Afghanistan (Chapter 1, Article 16), World Factbook, and just about every other source out there on Afghanistan, Dari is the official language of Afghanistan. See Talk:Languages_of_Afghanistan#More_edit-warring_on_the_languages. --Relisted. Dekimasuよ! 22:25, 4 November 2014 (UTC) Krzyhorse22 (talk) 14:09, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Being the official language of Afghanistan doesn't mean it isn't a dialect of Persian. As the article says (with a cited source), "The Iranian and Afghan types of Persian are mutually intelligible, ..." —BarrelProof (talk) 19:31, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

  The source for that is Omniglot and it uses Wikipedia as its source.[2] It being a dialect of Persian is a mere description, we are choosing a meaningful title here. Someone who is an expert on this issue will tell you that when Iranians and Dari-speaking Afghans sit together they don't clearly understand each other. See Tajik language (which is a form of Persian like Dari), and Urdu (national language of Pakistan) and Hindustani language as examples.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 00:22, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

  If the article is wrong or uses bad sources, please fix it. —BarrelProof (talk) 02:00, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support: as per Krzyhorse22's rationale. We already have article for Tajik language which is also technically a dialect of Persian. This page must be titled "Dari language" in the same way as Bosnian language, Serbian language, Montenegrin language, and Croatian language (all 4 are mutually intelligible dialects of a same South Slavic language) for example are titled. Khestwol (talk) 03:20, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support: to be consistent with Tajik language as mentioned above. Besides, Dari has an army though not a navy. YBG (talk) 04:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Phonology?

"Phonetically, Dari generally resembles a more formal and classical form of Persian (Farsi). The differences in pronunciation of Iranian and Afghan Persian can be considerable, on a par with Scottish and Cockney English"

Where the hell is the evidence for this? Since when is Dari a classical form of Farsi if it contains many Pashto and Arabic words? Even native speakers in Afghanistan still refer to Dari as "Farsi." There is also no given citations to support this claim so i am afraid i have to remove this dribble. Furthermore, comparing Scottish english to Iranian Farsi is completly absurd. Akmal94 (talk) 01:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

It isn't comparing Scottish English to Persian, but the differences between Afghan and Iranian Persian to the differences between Scottish and Cockney English. But it needs a citation just as much. --JorisvS (talk) 07:29, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I should have worded my sentence better. What i meant was the user comparing Dari like it was Pure Persian while Iranian farsi was seen like Scottish english due to scottish english being a dialect of pure cockney english. Either way the latter is wrong that has no proof and it must go. Akmal94 (talk) 01:28, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Although Cockney English is from the London area, it is hardly some standard, and, no, Scottish English is not a (sub)dialect of Cockney, both are dialects of English. And the way it is phrased is not suggesting which of the two should be considered 'pure' or standard, nor is the order suggesting that Dari should be likened to Cockney and Iranian Persian to Scottish English. The only thing it is saying is something about the difference between the two pairs. --JorisvS (talk) 08:14, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Eastern Persian is a legitimate synonym for this

I made this edit and was reverted. Dari is an eastern persian dialect and there is no direct reliable source for "dari persian". Farsi is established as western persian and srces refer to dari as eastern persian. Please discuss, otherwise I should just put it's legitimate alternate name.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 01:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Eastern Persian is not a wrong term IMO, but the source you have cited seems to be a weblog and is not reliable. Are there any more reliable sources? Anyway, because "Eastern Persian" is not a widely-used term, I think it is better to not include this term in the lead, unless we can find enough references to the term in reliable sources. -- Kouhi (talk) 02:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Ethnologue is a reliable source which mentions "Eastern Farsi" as a name for Dari. -- Kouhi (talk) 02:36, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

It's good that you have stopped edit warring and bring your concerns to the talk page. The main problem is not why you added Eastern Persian to the lead section, these are main issues about your edit(s):

1. You didn't provide a reliable source.
2. You removed Dari Persian from the lead section (accepted revision). It's a common name for this dialect of Persian language. There is no reason to remove it.
3. That "شرق فارسی" just look likes a wrong term and bad translation (or maybe you invented it).

So? --Wario-Man (talk) 05:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

"Eastern Persian" is a bit iffy. It seems to be rarely used as a synonym in RS, judging from a web search using the keywords "eastern persian" afghanistan (Windfuhr does not use it as a fixed term), but there are a couple governmental documents in PDF form that use/list the term. Had NadirAli kept to adding only this one thing, without doing odd things such as removing valid cites without explanation, it would have likely met much less opposition. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:52, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

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Dari Poems

LouisAragon! I agree that my english is very bad. But I have verified the arguments with various quotations from great Iranians such as Thomas Hyde, John Richardson (orientalist), William Jones (philologist) etc. The term Dari or Deri has not originated in Afghanistan since 1964, but it is at least 1500 years old. Also Darius I Persian Speaker say to him Dara and in ancient sources he was called "Darii". Dari is the Language of the royal court. It was important that Deri and Dari were older than 1964. Many poets of the Persian language were sponsored by the respective courtyards of the Iranian dynasties. Es sind Many poets of the Persian language were sponsored by the respective courtyards of the Iranian dynasties. Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall listed the Persian poets at the time with two hundred. You understand German. Hafez Poem about Deri : Hafisens Lied kennt Jedermann, Wer liebliche Natur besitzt, Und wer ein Wort von dem Deri 2 Noch vorzusagen weiß. 2 Deri, das rein oder hochpersische, eigentlich die Hof- oder Pfortensprache von Der, Thüre. Sie erhielt diesen Namen, weil Behramgur aus der Dynastie der Sassaniden den Gebrauch desselben bey Hof, und in Staatsschriften durch ein besonderes Gesetz vorgeschrieben hatte. If we were a little constructive would not be bad!Tabnak (talk) 00:28, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

References

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Dari

Hello. Why the articel persian saying that dari is both dialect standard form? This articel self don't saying that that this is a dialect--Maxie1hoi (talk) 19:33, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Percentage Faux Pas?

So the article repeatedly claims that 27% of the population speak it as a native language. Okay, good. Then, the article states later that Tajiks speak it as their native language and they make up 27% of the population. Also good... But then, the article adds that Hazaras, who make up 9% of the population, also speak it as their native language. And so do Aimaqs and um some Pashtuns... Shouldn't the 27% be revised then? Otherwise, then make up some language for the others to eliminate the absurdity.

Yeah, I agree. The numbers vary widely for both ethnicities and the languages. What's considered the best source/solution in situations like this? Either way, it should at minimum, reflect the lowest possible percentage, not somewhere below it. --Jamaas9 (talk) 14:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The World Factbook estimate

• Afghan Persian or Dari (official) 80% (Dari functions as the lingua franca), Pashto (official) 47%, Uzbek 11%, English 5%, Turkmen 2%, Urdu 2%, Pashayi 1%, Nuristani 1%, Arabic 1%, Balochi, Shughni, Pamiri, Hindi, Russian, German, French (2017 est.) The World Factbook - Afghanistan --Wario-Man (talk) 03:12, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 29 October 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: There is limited support for Afghan Persian. The more concise term of Dari was supported by the majority in this discussion and also by several editors in the recent discussion at Talk:Dari_(disambiguation)#Requested move 14 October 2019. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

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Dari language → Dari – Dari is not a language and it's a dialect/variety of Persian language. Calling Dari a language is similar to call American English and British language as American language and British language. The previous move request was opened by User:Krzyhorse22; a sockpuppet of disruptive sockmaster User:Lagoo sab (he was/is well-known for his nationalistic and ethnocentric edits). A weak rationale based on non-linguistic sources and personal POV + only two votes. Plus Dari already redirects here and it's a common name of this dialect in English sources. Wario-Man (talk) 10:19, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• language/dialect/variety arguments are more disruptive than useful. The terms are not well defined.

Dari from Persian is a much bigger difference than American/British. But these points are accepted.

Dari points here true, but Dari is akin to jargon. Jargon terms redirect to their topic, but that doesn’t mean topics should be moved to the jargon terms. Therefore Oppose this specific proposal.

Counter propose Afghan Persian, the dominant term in English language sources, and miles ahead in terms of RECOGNIZABILITY. And it nicely classifies the “language” (small l) as Persian, which probably the most important thing to know about this language. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm OK with "Afghan Persian" because scholars like Gernot Windfuhr use that term.[3] My whole point is that we should remove that "language" from the title. Dari, Afghan Persian, XYZ Persian, Dari (XYZ), or any other proper and common name is acceptable. So I wait for other users' comments and their arguments. --Wario-Man (talk) 13:33, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

The naked "Dari" is ambiguous. Dari (disambiguation) includes several other topics unrelated to the language or the country, and there will be readers familiar with this other Dari for whom they would have no idea about the Afghan language/dialect/variety. There are also a great many other topics, couscous, carpets, where "Dari" is routinely used as a local primary topic. Afghan Persian has no such problems. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: the proposal seems to be politically biased. In fact, the Afghan government and a majority of the people of Afghanistan refer to Dari as an official language. Furthermore, we also have an article for Tajik language, which is also technically a dialect of Persian, like Dari is. There are other similar examples too where mutually intelligible "dialects" are referred to as "languages" as per the choice of their speakers and governments. For example, see Bosnian language, Serbian language, Montenegrin language, and Croatian language (all four are mutually intelligible dialects of a single Serbo-Croatian "language"). Khestwol (talk) 17:17, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Avoid writing nonsense like "the proposal seems to be politically biased". How my rationale is politically biased?! Where is the bias especially the so-called political part? Didn't you read my reply to SmokeyJoe's comment? Didn't you see the link to Gernot Windfuhr's work? How Afghan government and Afghans are related to a linguistic discussion on WP? If Afghan gov decides to call Dari as Martian language someday, should we use it then?! Or we should follow the opinions of experts, linguists, and scholars? If article XYZ (in this cas eTajik language) has some issues, it's not related to this article. Every article has its own story and we review each article individually. We fix articles one by one. You just recycled your old comment[4]; but adding some kind of personal attack to beginning of it this time. The Serbo-Croatian example is a weak argument. Have you seen Varieties of Arabic? None of them uses "language" in their titles. Why do you think Dari language is more accurate than Dari or Afghan Persian? Per what sources? Per what academic/scholary linguistic works? --Wario-Man (talk) 18:12, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

• Support Both suggestions by Wario-Man and SmokeyJoe seem good. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:39, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support Dari Per the above rationale of Wario-Man.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:21, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support Dari Per arguments set forth by Wario-Man. If the title Dari is deemed too ambiguous, Afghan Persian should be used, as that is the most common precise name.[5] Krakkos (talk) 10:44, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

I disagree. Actually, as of 2008 and after that, "Dari language" is the most common unambiguous term (see Google Books Ngram link). Khestwol (talk) 20:00, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

• Comment about the counter proposal: in my opinion, "Afghan Persian" seems more to be a description of the language rather than the name of the language. For the official language of Tajikistan, the name is Tajik language, not "Tajik Persian". Also, the closing admin can keep it in their mind that the Constitution of Afghanistan says Pashto and Dari shall be the official languages of the state and it refers to the language as Dari, not "Afghan Persian". Khestwol (talk) 20:00, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Did you even read Wario-Man's reply to you up above? --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Obviously you didn't read my comments and ignored my questions & points. You just repeated your above comment. Constitution of Afghanistan (political stuff) and Tajik language (just another WP article) are irrelevant here. --Wario-Man (talk) 09:07, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.