Talk:Decadent Sound of Faye

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus and also to ensure this and other discussions don't create an inconsistency, a new multi-move request has been setup over at Talk:No Regrets (Faye Wong album)#Requested multi-page move and all editors are highly encouraged to voice your thoughts over there. (non-admin closure) Tiggerjay (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

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Decadent Sounds of Faye → Fei mimi zhi yin – A few sources used "Decadent Sounds of Faye" (somehow commonly translated by fans) or "Faye Beautiful Music" as an English title for this Mandarin album (菲靡靡之音). Nevertheless, translation for this album is never easier. From what I've heard, mimi zhi yin (靡靡之音) was used back in the rise of Communism in China to disdain Teresa Teng, so 'fei' (菲) was added to reflect Faye Wong's admiration for her. Nevertheless, I wouldn't call either English title very accurate. 'Mimi' (靡靡) means "cheap", and 'yin' (音) is music. 'Zhi' (之) is a possessive word that resembles "in" and "of". George Ho (talk) 02:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment shouldn't this use the Cantonese rendering of the title, since this is a pre-1996 album from when she was in Hong Kong? -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 04:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
  • For a Mandarin album? I hope not. --George Ho (talk) 04:22, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Added two sources: again Homan has "Decadent Sound of Faye" (which in other albums comes from Billboard/industry sources). The Australian conference paper also has this, and correctly matches with PRC sources linking it to "decadent" related to Teresa Tang's music. I think stay with English here. Also a factor that without tone marks, let alone characters, the Chinese is difficult to guess at meaning. If it moves to Chinese it must be Fei mimi zhi yin (Faye Wong album) to have any recognisablity. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
  • There is no other articles titled fei mimi zhi yin; you should create mimi zhi yin. Also, parenthetical disambiguation is unnecessary. --George Ho (talk) 05:38, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, the guideline is a guideline, which might make sense with Decadent Sound of Faye (minus -s, per Homan) but Fei mimi zhi yin with no tones, it would be an unhelpful title, even someone searching in pinyin would be glad of (Faye Wong album) explaining what it is. The problem with toneless pinyin titles is that there's a double erosion of meaning. First strip the visual meaning 菲靡靡之音, then strip the pronunciation - what is this, 秘密 [mìmì] secret, 咪咪 [mīmī] miaow/meow (or "tits" in slang), 靡靡 [mǐmǐ] decadent, hence we should provide some helping hand to indicate this is a (Faye Wong album). In ictu oculi (talk) 06:22, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The proposed Romanized title is unambiguous at this time. As said already, parenthetical dab is unnecessary. --George Ho (talk) 15:44, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation is unnecessary, but disambiguation isn't proposed. I'm proposing parenthetical assistance as an attempt to reach WP:NAMINGCRITERIA #1 and #2. Except that in this Mandarin case I'm not, because pinyin is more recognisable than the competing Cantonese romanizations. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:17, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support Fei mimi zhi yin - I've come round on this. Main reason is that the current English title (only 2 uses, non-official) is actually misleading. The whole point/pun of the title is "The Non-decadent sound of Faye" compared to the "Decadent sound" of Teresa Teng in PRC criticism. Also pinyin, even with the tones stripped off Fēi mǐmǐ zhī yīn as here, is almost recognisable. The proposed move is an improvement overall, except that it clips Faye out. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:25, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. [http://www.amazon.com/Decadent-Sounds-Faye-Wong/dp/B000251I1S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 Amazon] gives "Decadent Sounds of Faye". FWIW, its also being sold in 'Nam under this title. What's the point of a title nobody can read? Kauffner (talk) 18:19, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't call Amazon exactly reliable, and I would believe that the Vietnamese website must have used Wikipedia as a sole 'translator'. The Vietnamese website was created in 2005, so that's a late translation. Yesasia, on the other hand, calls it "My Faye Valet". --George Ho (talk) 19:40, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

[http://www.amazon.com/Access-All-Eras-Tribute-Culture/dp/0335216900/ref=sr_1_1?s= Here] is Shane Homan's Access All Eras, if anyone wants to confirm that he calls it Decadent Sound of Faye. I search for "Fei mimi zhi yin" on both GBooks and Amazon, but nothing relevant comes up. "Mimi zhi yin" is a phrase from the Cultural Revolution that has an established translation as "decadent sounds." Nhacso must gotten the translation from Amazon or from the record label. Why should it matter when it was translated? Kauffner (talk) 05:23, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

That book was published in 2006. It must have used fansites as translation sources because they don't analyze Chinese titles very well. --George Ho (talk) 18:04, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I already added Holman to the article 3 days ago. Nothing has changed - we have 3 late English sources, all disagreeing, and all not reflecting the meaning of the name. If we can use Mandarin for Mandarin albums like Teresa Teng's Dandan you qing when there is no English, then we can use Mandarin for Faye Wong albums when there is no English. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:09, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I know you gave Homan earlier, but a link may still be helpful to those reading this discussion. So the proposed form is for the benefit of all the Mandarin speakers who can read pinyin without tone marks? Kauffner (talk) 07:14, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, per WP:PINYIN. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:NAME says 'On the English Wikipedia, article titles are written using the English language.' WP:NAMINGCRITERIA says the guiding principles are recognizability, naturalness, precision, conciseness and consistency. IMHO "Decadent Sounds of Faye" is good on all these counts, and is actually best for recognizability and naturalness. WP:COMMONNAME says, 'Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.' English-language sources usually refer to this album by an attempted translation rather than romanization. As for Dandan youqing, I would move it to Light Exquisite Feelings. – Fayenatic London 12:51, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
  • dandan youqing has no pre-Internet English sources that translate this title. Light Exquisite Feeling(s) must have been a fandom translation used by very few (or no) news articles. Decadent Sounds of Faye is just fandom translation, even if possibly accurate or commonly translated. We cannot use fandom translation and/or just policies or guidelines as an example to argue for or against. --George Ho (talk) 03:34, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
    • What do you mean by the latter? Of course we can use policies or guidelines. – Fayenatic London 12:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support as required by MOS:ALBUM. Thanks, In ictu oculi, for citing that page at Talk:Restless (Faye Wong album); I have now added a link to it within WP:NAME so that other people can find it more easily. Nevertheless, good-faith translations should be used alongside or instead of pinyin/jyutping romanization when providing links in articles and navigation templates. – Fayenatic London 12:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

  • For the record, my support is reluctant. IMHO that part of MOS:ALBUM is not a great guideline. I would prefer to keep Decadent Sounds of Faye or something very similar. – Fayenatic London 20:33, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• MOS:ALBUM is contradicted on this point by WP:USEENGLISH, which is policy and should override it. The transliterated title is even less common in the RS than the translated title. Recognizability is the No. 1 WP:NAMINGCRITERIA for article titling. The proposed form is recognizable to no one. Neither English speakers nor Chinese speakers can even read it. Kauffner (talk) 03:14, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

MOS:ALBUM is clearly not contradicted. Many have noted before that WP:USEENGLISH is a misleading shortcut to a 'guideline which actually says this:

No established usage in English-language sources It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage. Very low Google counts can but need not be indicative of this. If this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns etc.).

The case isn't as blindingly clear in this RM as in several of the other Faye Wong RMs George has helpfully raised. But it is certainly more clear than most cases where we follow "German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns" etc. True Mandarin has characters, but that doesn't stop us giving Japanese names in romanization for 1000s of Japan articles. True Cantonese has 2 romanization systems, but wiktionary uses Yale and Jyutping with no problem. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:43, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• The immediately preceding paragraph refers to "anglicized and local spellings." In other words, the guideline you are quoting is about diacritics. An English speaker can read a German name whether or not it has an umlaut, so the analogy to this situation is hardly obvious. Here is something more relevant: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." (WP:UE). Kauffner (talk) 05:13, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

As the lead shows in this case that is moot. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:33, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Multi-page move

Please see a new multi-move request has been setup over at Talk:No Regrets (Faye Wong album)#Requested multi-page move and all editors are highly encouraged to voice your thoughts over there. Tiggerjay (talk) 15:08, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:No Regrets (Faye Wong album) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:44, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

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