Talk:Garfield Sobers

Untitled

Wikipedia doesn't include "Sir" in article titles. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles).

I suppose the question arises whether we should move it to Garfield Sobers or Gary Sobers. On the principle of least surprise, I would suggest Gary Sobers.

Good to see somebody adding a few more cricketers to the list of people covered in the 'Pedia! --Robert Merkel 11:58, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Google - There's not much in it.

"garfield sobers": 3,260

"gary sobers"  : 2,850

I'd probably go with Garfield (I'm not really sure he is "better known" as Gary, just "also known"), but it doesn't really matter so long as there's a redirect from the other. I'll move and make redirect now. --Camembert

I'd go with Garfiled, as there are already a number of links using that name. Mintguy

Garry Sobers on google has 35,900 pages in english...

Article Editing

This page needs editing, thats for sure. That thumb bit is not needed right in the start, could be added to "Trivia". It needs more text and divisions. Wildpixs 13:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Test Innings Record

The fact that he had it is well worth being included, but the information about people who surpassed it is superfluous. Just saying that he was a previous holder of the record with 365...etc is relevant to this encyclopedia, not who has surpassed it, as that would be on the records page, and those players individual pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pottski (talk • contribs) 02:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Middle name

I have in front of me a copy of Garry Sobers' autobiography—Sobers, Garfield (2002). Garry Sobers: My Autobiography. London: Headline. ISBN 0 7555 1006 3. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: checksum (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)—and on page 7, he writes the following "I was born Garfield St Aubrun Sobers on 28 July 1936 ...". Given that I think he knows his own name, I have changed it back. Note also the title of the book Garry not Gary. Cheers, Mattinbgn\^talk 12:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Assuming that it is the name of some Christian saint somewhere, both St Auburn and St Aubrun are practically absent in google. The only one I could find is a St Auburn church in Alabama. Tintin 12:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The British official sources, and the cricinfo profile all give Auburn. I see that the Australian honour record does give Aubrun. Looking back at the FCO docs relating to his knightood, they quite often have Aubyn, just to add a further variant, but later diplomatic cables (after requests to double check forenames) are insistent that St Auburn is the correct version. David Underdown (talk) 12:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

There is Auburn University in Alabama which is famous for its football team. In the Playfair annuals issued during Sobers' career, his middle name is always St Aubrun. ---BlackJack | ^{talk page} 12:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course having written what I have written above, we did earlier conclude that Sid Barnes was wrong about his birthday in his autobiography! -- Mattinbgn\^talk 12:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I had certainly always understood that his middle name was St Aubrun. Checking in an old Plsyfair Cricket Annual (1973), that has St Aubrun. As for the "Gary"/"Garry" thing, it always used to be "Gary", but at some point in the 1970s or 1980s it seemed to change to "Garry", possibly at Sobers own request. JH (talk page) 17:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Just checked, and CricketArchive, whose error rate is pretty low, have St Aubrun. JH (talk page) 17:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to set the record straight, St. Aubrun and St. Aubyn are both incorrect. The correct middle name is in fact St. Auburn I know this because I'm Sir Garry's son Daniel Sobers and have given my son the same middle name, St. Auburn after his grandfather. So, even though this issue was raised within the Sobers household, it was resolved that his middle name is St. Auburn. Thank you. Now all those with the incorrect spelling can fix their typos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danz177 (talk • contribs) 04:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

We have to accept Gary Sobers' middle name as St Aubrun because of verification per site guidelines and policy. In his own autobiography, Sobers calls himself St Aubrun and in cricket publications during his career (e.g., Playfair) he is called St Aubrun. If anyone can find a verifiable source that overrules those, please quote it. Otherwise St Aubrun is verified. --Jack | ^{talk page} 04:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

As I've said before the London Gazette announcing his knighthood as St Auburn, and you don't get much more official than that. David Underdown (talk) 11:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I would prefer Sobers' own word in his autobiography to something that has been produced by the British government. --Jack | ^{talk page} 04:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Except that the official correspondence which I've also linked to shows that they went to a great deal of trouble to check that they had got the name right. David Underdown (talk) 09:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

At the moment I have put it at Auburn as per CricInfo and other sources above. Perhaps mention the descrepancy, or certainly cite something when final solution has decided. SGGH ^ping! 17:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I have never found CricInfo reliable, especially its presentation of historical material, and I always think twice before citing it as a source. I can only repeat that Sobers' own word in his own autobiography is the most authoritative source as he surely knows his own name better than a cricket website and certainly better than the current inept and despicable British government. In addition, cricket books issued during Sobers' career, such as Playfair which has far greater credibility than CricInfo, call him Garfield St Aubrun Sobers. I agree with SGGH that a citation is needed after his name in the text lead, so I have quoted the precise page (p.7) on which Gary Sobers says: "I was born Garfield St Aubrun Sobers on 28 July 1936 ...". --Jack | ^{talk page} 08:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

And to emphasise the point above by JH, the CricketArchive profile is here. As JH rightly points out, CricketArchive has a very low error count. --Jack | ^{talk page} 09:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

As I was saying about the reliability of CricInfo. It hosts the Wisden Cricket Archive and if you look in the archive entry for 1964 you will find the Wisden write-up on Gary Sobers when he was announced as a Wisden Cricketer of the Year. There, in the midst of it, is his full name of Garfield St Aubrun Sobers, hence Wisden agrees with Playfair. I'll add this to the citations too as it's very useful in other respects. --Jack | ^{talk page} 09:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

John Major the pollie as a cricket pundit

What does everyone think? Does he have a history of cricket work? YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 02:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I can understand the doubt but actually Major's More Than A Game is a worthy and readable effort that has been well researched. He is a lifelong devotee of Surrey and comes across well as a knowledgeable writer. I would not use his book as a first source but it has certainly proved useful in a lot of cases where there is a fact that I know but which I can't actually find in Altham or Buckley or Wisden or wherever. One thing Major's book is extremely good at is its coverage of single wicket in the 19th century and here I give him top marks.

I think his book is a fair choice as a backup source but I don't think I'd like to see an article in which it is the only source. Not that his information would be wrong, it's just that I would like to find that the editor has taken the trouble to consult Buckley, Wisden, etc. too. ---BlackJack | ^{talk page} 08:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Honorary Officer of the Order of Australia?

I changed the wording to "honorary", because only Australian citizens qualify for substantive awards. But his entry at It's an Honour makes no mention of any honorary status. On tghe face of it, this suggests he's an Australian citizen. If this is true, what are the details? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:29, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that he is an Australian citizen (with dual citizenship). He certainly was married to an Australian for some time, so it isn't implausible. No idea how one would check these things, short of requesting his naturalisation papers. There are a few external sources that provide some support though

• "... it is said he received Australian citizenship very quickly because of his friendship with sports-minded politicians."; and
• "Sobers became an Australian citizen in 1980."

Don't know if either of those are authoritative enough. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 01:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

These sources all seem to support each other. I'd make some mention of this fact in the article, cite the sources, and wait for someone with better sources to come along. Thanks. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Btw, my interest in this was peaked by the issue I raised at Talk:Australian knights and dames#British governors who stayed on in retirement, etc.. Feel free to contribute to that discussion. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm for British honours a citizen of any Commonwealth country is eligble for full membership of orders eg Order of the British Empire, I'd always rather assumed the same was true in reverse, but I suppose the British situation may be a hagnover from teh fact taht these were originally Imperial honours. David Underdown (talk) 21:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I see Kevin Rudd has nominated Sobers as his favourite athlete, rather than the expected Don Bradman. He's quoted as saying "I thought, this guy has got the gift, the gift of the gods about him. So there you go, he's not an Australian. Gary Sobers". Sometime should tell the PM that he picked an Aussie after all. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Review

I've just read this article again for the first time in many months and I would say it is shaping up well. It needs much more information about his time as West Indies captain and much more about his first class club tenures at South Australia, Barbados and Nottinghamshire. His early life and his Test career up to 1963 are well documented and maybe just need rounding off at the edges. The section on league cricket is quite good. I'll keep it in my to-do list but if anyone else can help with additional info, that will be great. --Jack | ^{talk page} 05:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

"One of the ..../?"

Whoever wrote that Gar(r)y Sobers is "Widely considered to be one of the world's greatest all-rounders" has made the understatement of the year. I have seen Keith Miller, Ian Botham, Doug Walters and a heap of others. All stars, no question. But if you ask any great player (regretfully I am not one), they will tell you that without doubt, the title goes to this remarkable man. At test match level he was a batting genius, with all the shots in the book and some that are not. His fielding was deadly, close in or on the boundary, he could bowl fast or slow in so many styles that he would leave the opposition baffled when he first came on to bowl. As a captain he was admired and respected, and as a gentleman, a splendid ambassador for his team, Island, and the game. I had the great honour and pleasure of meeting the great Clive Lloyd one evening in a night club (remember those?) in Sydney. He was missing his family and a bit homesick. But when I asked him THE question, quick as his bat, the reply came, "Well, there have been many, but only one Gary Sobers". So there.Historygypsy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:26, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't disagree with any of that, but of course everything needs backing up with recognised sources before it can be added to the article without being removed as POV. ISTR that no less an authority than EW Swanton ranked Sobers as the greatest of all all-rounders, and his first-hand experience extended from the 1920s to the 1990s. JH (talk page) 10:47, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks JH, there are more sources than Mr. Heinz has, but the article to which I refer has no citation either.

Cheers Historygypsy (talk) 21:15, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I have been pondering the statement of JH, can't disagree. Problem is virtually all the "Recognised" judgements are in electronic media, interviews on YouTube and such, and the website of the Australian Cricket Hall of Fame. Players like Bishen Bedi and Denis Lillee (to name but a few) are certainly authoritative, but does Wikipedia accept a video on the WWW as a "Recognised source". Paper based literature will sooner or later be a fossil, will Wikipedia move with the times? Historygypsy (talk) 02:27, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

If you want to "beef up" the lead I would suggest drawing on something that's already included later on in the article (with the appropriate citation): "In 2000 Sobers was named by a 100-member panel of experts as one of the five Wisden Cricketers of the Century. He received 90 votes out of a possible 100. The other four cricketers selected for the honour were Don Bradman (100 votes), Jack Hobbs (30), Shane Warne (27) and Viv Richards (25)." Since none of the other four could be considered true all-rounders, that is strong evidence for saying that Sobers is viewed as the greatest ever all-rounder (at least up to 2000). I think that would be better than quoting the opinions of just one or two former great cricketers, as a few of them have sometimes said things that suggest that they aren't always the best judges of a player. Like all of us, they have their prejudices. JH (talk page) 09:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Gee JH, I quoted Lillee and Bishen Bedi "to name but a few". I would not call Lillee or BB prejudiced, neither are from the West Indies and poor Lillee, one of the true great quicks got plastered all over the field by Sobers. Historygypsy (talk) 22:34, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't referring specifically to those two but to great players in general. Players mosty don't have a great knowledge of the games's hisory, and they naturally tend to rate players whom they have played against or seen higher than those who were before their time. That's why I mentioned Swanton, who saw almost all the great players during something like a 70 year span. JH (talk page) 09:43, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi JH, I am really enjoying this "Tete a Tete". You can add to the list of Soberphiles Sir Donald Bradman, Sir Vivian Richards, Ian Woolridge (distinguished veteran cricket writer, Keith Stackpole, Clive Lloyd, oh heck, not enough room to name them all except ll'l ol' me who saw G S play for the Windies and for South Australia. Historygypsy (talk) 01:15, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

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Greatness RfC that may affect this article

Just a note to let editors know that there is an ongoing RfC about the term "greatest of all time" (especially in the lead). The discussion ongoing at Talk:Rod Laver. Either way you bend it could affect this article. Join in if you wish. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:51, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 1 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) ~SS49~ {talk} 12:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

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Garfield Sobers → Garry Sobers – I have always known and heard of this cricketer with the name Garry Sobers, I was surprised to see the article with the title Garfield. I am proposing this name based on WP:COMMONNAME policy as used in reliable media that I searched e.g. ESPN Cricinfo DBigXrayᗙ 11:26, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - This is just a rough guide, but a quick Google search returns 276,000 results for "Garfield Sobers" and 199,000 results for "Garry Sobers" (and in fact 214,000 results for "Gary Sobers"). I'm tempted to think we've got the article in the right place now, but I'm not willing to cast a !vote either way. – PeeJay 11:45, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind comment Pee. both combined supports my proposal. I am open for both Garry or Gary. --DBigXrayᗙ 11:55, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

How does the current article title being the most common usage support your proposal? Spike 'em (talk) 13:18, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I think they're saying that the fact that "Garry" + "Gary" exceeds "Garfield" is some sort of positive evidence that his nickname is more prevalent than his actual name. – PeeJay 13:31, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Lots of the results use more than one of the names in the same article. For me doing Google searches of: "Gary Sobers" -Garfield gives 56k results; "Garry Sobers" -Garfield has 86k; "Garfield Sobers" -Garry -Gary returns 154k. Spike 'em (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

My recollection is that "Gary" was the preferred nickname in the 1960s, but more recently "Garry" has become more common. But he;s often referred to by his full first name as well. I can't see that it matters much which form we use so long as there are redirects from the other two. JH (talk page) 18:05, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. I've always heard him referred to as Garfield rather than Garry, in the UK at least. StickyWicket (talk) 16:09, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose due to the fact that both Garry and Gary are used, and the Google hits listed above. Harrias ^talk 19:34, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Although Google hits don't support a primary title either way, the ambiguity around Gary or Garry leads me to leaving the page where it is. WP:TITLECHANGES states "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed". And per StickyWicket, I've only heard him referred as Garfield, and I'm in the UK too. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 19:49, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lugnuts.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:31, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Knight batchelor

As only citizens of Commonwealth realms can be created Knights Bachelor and as citizens of countries whose head of state is not the Queen should not use the style "Sir", given that Barbados has become a republic, what is now the correct form of address for Sobers? Perhaps this might be covered in the article? Greenshed (talk) 22:33, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I doubt whether any of our regular Wiki writers on cricket would know. I'd have thought that the honour shouldn't be removed retrospectively, but that's no more than a guess on my part. JH (talk page) 09:36, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

All honours which were received before Barbados became a republic would remain. The use of Sir really relates to the honour itself which he received while the Queen was Barbados' official head of state. Sobers therefore would have no change to his name. 206.231.127.173 (talk) 20:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Aubrun or Auburn

An IP has tried to change the spelling of the subject's name from "Aubrun" to "Auburn". We have dozens of references that use the Aubrun spelling. The IP has offered two sources that use the Auburn spelling: https://www.barbadosadvocate.com/columns/things-matter-sir-garfield-st-auburn-sobers and https://www.totallybarbados.com/articles/about-barbados/people/meet-a-bajan/sir-garfield-st-auburn-sobers. These are both poor sources. The first is an article in a small local newspaper (which incidentally contains the misspelling "nick name" for "nickname") and the second article uses both "Auburn" and "Aubrun" in different places. CodeTalker (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

All the more authoritative sources seem to use "Aubrun". I did a web search in that the hope that there had been a saint called either Saint Aubrun or Saint Auburn, but I couldn't find any reference to one. So unless/until someone can find something really authoritative saying "Auburn" (census record or baptism register maybe, or even his official knighthood citation) I think we should stick with "Auburn". JH (talk page) 16:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Jhall1. There seems to be a typo in your post; can you clarify that the last word was intended to be "Aubrun"? CodeTalker (talk) 16:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Oops! Sorry about that. Yes it was meant to be "Aubrun". I suppose it bears out how easy it is to mistype the unfamiliar word, which probably accounts for the occasional appearance in written sources of his name as "St Auburn". JH (talk page) 10:23, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Would you like a copy of Barbados' electoral list with everyone's registered names? I still have one that leaked a few years ago. 206.231.127.173 (talk) 20:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

No, that would be pointless since a copy of the electoral list would not be a reliable source. CodeTalker (talk) 20:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't make sense changing it but how is the electoral list not a reliable source? Just asking. 72.51.111.243 (talk) 23:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

An isolated file without any provenance would not be any kind of source. There would be no way for anyone else to verify where it came from, whether it was indeed a real electoral list, or whether it has been modified from the original or even entirely fabricated. But even if a verified copy were available (for example, from a government website), it would be a primary source and therefore of limited use. No one without specialized knowledge of Barbados government procedures would be able to tell what process was used to collect the information, how it is verified, how to interpret its various components, etc. We would need a reliable secondary source that analyzes the primary source and explains it. See WP:PRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY for more information on Wikipedia's policies regarding primary and secondary sources. CodeTalker (talk) 06:38, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

The Barbados Advocate is not a small local newspaper. It is one of the main two reliable newspapers on the island. 206.231.127.173 (talk) 20:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Regardless, the style and tone of that article makes it clear that it was not written by a professional journalist, and the article says that the author is "past Dean of Medical Sciences, UWI and Professor Emeritus of Medicine"; ie. not a journalist nor any kind of specialist in sports reporting. It is a personal essay, not a fact-checked article. In any case, even if there were one reliable source using the name "Auburn", we already have so many reliable sources using the name "Aubrun" that at best we would have to mention both names. CodeTalker (talk) 20:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)