Talk:Gonzo (Muppet)

What is Gonzo?

i was in a quiz game and they asked me what Gonzo was, i said it was unknown... i got it wrong. They told me in one of the episodes they labled him as a Chicken Hawk, is this true or should i have been right?

I recall a Muppet Babies episode where Fozzie said that he had always thought of Gonzo as a cross between a chicken hawk, beach blanket (or beach ball), and something else... does anyone remember that?

SPOILER : In Muppets from Space , Gonzo discovers he's actually from another -rather funky - planet. His extraterrestrial family appears dressed like the Earth,Wind and Fire and reveal him the origin of his unusual looks and his unkown species.

Did they ever reveal what the name of the planet was ??

I always thought he was a vulture. I still believe they tried to make a vulture at first, somehow realised they couldn't get it right but still liked the outcome and then decided to label him a 'whatever'.2A02:8109:A180:2750:D126:C355:DDDE:A223 (talk) 04:14, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

I thought he was a vulture too and that somebody at the company might have quickly realized because vultures do eat dead flesh there was no way to make it viewer (and especially kid) friendly. Rewriting him as a 'weirdo' may have been 'cleanup'. Gonzo does 'weird' things but he is not mean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GloriaCobain (talk • contribs) 00:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"The Great"?

Almost everyone just calls him "Gonzo". Even the Muppet Wiki lists him as "Gonzo". [1]

I think we should change the page title to "Gonzo" or "Gonzo (Muppet)". The article would still mention that he's technically "Gonzo the Great", and "Gonzo the Great" would redirect to the "Gonzo" page. 220.110.235.228 (talk) 11:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Gonzo is not specific enough; we need to disambiguate somehow. (The Muppet Wiki does not need to disambiguate because only one subject under their purview is called "Gonzo".) "Gonzo the Great", I think, is more appealing than "Gonzo (Muppet)" in that respect, don't you? Powers ^T 12:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

What animal inspired him?

It doesn't mean that's what he is, but what was he modeled after? What was his design inspired by?

I thought Gonzo was a Dodo Bird when I was a kid. But he could also be a Sabrewing Hummingbird, an Ibis, a Huia, a Hornbill, a Toucan, or an Iiwi. But the bird he most resembles is the Blue Macaw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.134.7 (talk) 09:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

@24.17.134.7 they are specifically designed to look ambiguous in their species 166.70.56.77 (talk) 02:41, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Gonzo Nightmare

Having reviewed 1970's The Great Santa Claus Switch (Gonzo's first appearance as Snarl, the Cigar Box Frackle), The Muppet Musicians of Bremen (1972), The Muppets Valentine Show (1974), Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass (1974), The Muppets: Sex and Violence(1975) and the first season of The Muppet Show (1976), I've found no trace of a winged, muppet-eating proto-Gonzo named Gonzo Nightmare. --Blind Donkey (talk) 23:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 16 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 14:52, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

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Gonzo (Muppet) → The Great Gonzo – This article was moved (without discussion!) last year from The Great Gonzo to Gonzo (Muppet). Given that we prefer natural disambiguation, and that there was a discussion from 2010 on this very topic already on this talk page, this move should not have been treated as uncontroversial. I propose moving it back, because the natural disambiguation is superior to the artificial "(Muppet)" disambiguation. Powers ^T 14:04, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, leave as is judging by this it was a good move. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:16, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

  Apologies, but I don't see the relevance. There's no question that "Gonzo" is the WP:COMMONNAME; the only question is how to disambiguate. Powers ^T 11:34, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. The other title isn't really disambiguation as much as a different name, which is not even close to the common name. kennethaw88 • talk 04:04, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

  Er, I don't understand your objection. WP:NATURALDIS has this definition in it: "Natural disambiguation: Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title." Doesn't that precisely fit the proposed new title? Powers ^T 17:48, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

  No, it doesn't. "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called" is exactly what what the proposed title is not. The common name is Gonzo, and The Great Gonzo is not a common name at all. kennethaw88 • talk 18:10, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

  But it is; you can see it multiple times in the Google results of the search posted by User:In ictu oculi. It's just less common than "Gonzo". Powers ^T 14:09, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Gender

It is now clear, due to a baby Muppets episode, that Gonzo is non-binary.

I understand that some editors seem to dispute this, but at the very least the page should use neutral pronouns as those are appropriate for both male and non-binary individuals.

If there is still a dispute about their gender we can list it as "disputed" and add a paragraph about the episode in question. (It is the Gonzerella episode)

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/07/27/muppet-babies-gonzo-princess-lgbt/

Dt sudo (talk) 19:03, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Of course, as always, if there are reliable sources that state that Gonzo is nonbinary then it can be included in the article. I haven't seen the episode in question but as far as I can tell from reading about it, Gonzo chooses to wear a dress to a ball. I'm not sure that's sufficient to support changing pronouns unless there is additional support in reliable sources for such a change. CodeTalker (talk) 19:29, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

In the episode Gonzo presents as female during the ball as they use a female-gendered variant of Gonzo ("Gonzo-rella"). However, I will say that I think "genderfluid" might be a better term than "Non-Binary" as Gonzo does switch between both male and female presentations. As for the pronouns, They/Them/Their would be appropriate even if Gonzo's gender expression was male, so I don't see a reason to not use them.Dt sudo (talk)

The one gender indicator that has been clearly used by the series is "Whatever", within the comic. To prevent an edit war between "Nonbinary" and "Male", I've now switched it to "Whatever".--Cwebber (talk) 23:23, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Unencylopedic in the infobox, and in my reading of the bibliography "Whatever" is used in regard to his species, not his gender. No great source has been produced about the gender issue. Ribbet32 (talk) 00:52, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear that if there are two genders listed on bathroom doors and Gonzo goes into a third labeled "Whatever", that's an indication of "Whatever" as a gender in that case, too. It could have been a one off gag at the time perhaps, but the recent Muppet Babies episode seems to indicate more of a nudge of embracing Gonzo as nonbinary. Regardless, since I don't think we've ever seen a "Gonzo is male" statement IIRC, but we have seen Gonzo walk into a Whatever-gendered bathroom, I think it's worth sticking with "Whatever" as the gender and keep nonbinary pronouns in use throughout the article. Plus, Gonzo being weird and going against the grain of society is undoubtedly part of their character. Seems like the kind of thing they'd wholeheartedly embrace if they read this Wikipedia article. :) --Cwebber (talk) 14:26, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Gonzo isn't a real person and your readings are original research. Ribbet32 (talk) 14:43, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

> It seems pretty clear that if there are two genders listed on bathroom doors and Gonzo goes into a third labeled "Whatever", that's an indication of "Whatever" as a gender in that case, too.

@Cwebber, this violates WP:No original research. We cannot make such a conclusion in Wikivoice unless a WP:RS explicitly states that Gonzo is non-binary. I can find none that do so.

If there is no information on the subject's gender expression, then we need to remove that field from the infobox asap. Using the pronoun "they" in this case is appropriate, though, we can keep that.

BTW, the website "toughpigs.com" is not a reliable source. It doesn't seem to firmly state that the subject is non-binary either, rather it's just throwing ideas around. — Vigursii • 📨 14:47, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I will accept that in the sense that I see that the "Gender" part of the bio sidebar on the bio has been removed altogether. If we keep the gender section as it is, and reserve to they/them right now within the article, I'll accept that it's speculative... it looks like the recent Muppet Babies episode has moved towards the idea that Gonzo does not have a fixed gender, but it hasn't fully shaken out with a statement. So leaving that there's good reason to believe, without any specific conclusion, seems like a fair compromise.--Cwebber (talk) 00:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Btw, @Ribbet32 asked "what comic?" and suggested I was being "disruptive for the sole sake of being disruptive". I assure you this is not the case, and the "whatevers" comic is easy enough to find, and in fact appears in the citation within the gender identity section. toughpigs.com may well not itself be an authoritative resource for new content, but it does show the well known "Whatevers" comic there, which is well known to be an actual published comic within the series.--Cwebber (talk) 00:54, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm glad we reached consensus, @Cwebber! Thank you for your input. — Vigursii • 📨 09:36, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Stop this nonsense. Wanting to wear a dress as a male doesn't make you queer or non-binary. The other Muppets use his normal pronouns: he/his Arglyf (talk) 20:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

First… do we know whether Gonzo’s fictional species even has a gender? Second, if using “he/him/his” is incorrect, I would think “it/its” would be a more accurate substitute. Blueboar (talk) 21:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Who says it's incorrect? You? Only OR and mostly unreliable sources have been used to support this assertion. The pronouns are supported by the source material, such as The Muppet Movie and this quotation from Kermit: "And a thing, whatever Gonzo is. He's a little like a turkey". Ribbet32 (talk) 21:39, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

He’s referred to as a *Boy* in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwLQO0qKyIQ, can’t get any more *Male* than that! --2607:FEA8:C83:4900:2D57:C0FB:61F9:448B (talk) 00:19, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Gonzo now canonically uses they/them pronouns. The article should reflect such.

https://www.bolde.com/gonzo-non-binary-muppet-babies-pronouns/ 2601:18E:C200:2D70:0:0:0:236E (talk) 17:49, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Unreliable source, NEXT! --2607:FEA8:C83:4900:B9DD:3D5C:9D13:FD96 (talk) 18:35, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

First off, NB people can be reffered to as "boy" or "he", NB people are not exclusive to one set of pronouns of reffering terms. Secondly if there is evidence showing that Gonzo is male, there is in opposition; overwhelming evidence points to them being gender non comforming/ non-binary Djampuu (talk) 19:46, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

You didn’t create him, so you don’t get to decide what he is or isn’t if you have no official sources. Your last line still doesn’t prove a thing about what Gonzo is, just what you want him to be. 2607:FEA8:C82:6A00:F4ED:BA12:C296:191D (talk) 21:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

sorry you don't understand overt subtext i guess lmao, just watch the magic ball episode of muppet babies Djampuu (talk) 08:59, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Look, you may think their a guy or that their not nb but across all muppet media, being described as a "whatever" is clearly not describing them as a man, even if they are not nb you cannot empirically claim that they are male. The best description on the gender page and in the description box should be "Unknown" Djampuu (talk) 17:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I’m sorry you don’t understand *Proof*, last I checked *Boys* isn’t a gender neutral term. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. 2605:B100:118:BB:9FD:68BD:5B68:F7FB (talk) 17:16, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

(replied to the wrong comment my bad) Look, you may think their a guy or that their not nb but across all muppet media, being described as a "whatever" is clearly not describing them as a man, even if they are not nb you cannot empirically claim that they are male. The best description on the gender page and in the description box should be "Unknown" Djampuu (talk) 17:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

at the end of the day Disney is not going to officially confirm one way or the other because they don't want to enrage either their homophobic fans or their queer fans, but they are clearly not intended to be a man, whether you think that means their nb is kinda up to you Djampuu (talk) 18:01, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Perfectly understandable, however, people would more likely be offended being labeled a “whatever” and taking that to mean NB or Trans. They are still gender identities and calling that “whatever” diminishes that in a way that can be offensive. I’m perfectly alright with what he is, more powers to him, but it has to be sincere proof. Gonzo was disguised in that episode and the only reason Mrs. Piggy referred to the individual as them was because she was most likely unsure what to refer to Gonzo in disguise as. 2605:B100:13A:29D9:A849:6102:FD31:647E (talk) 18:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm a nb and while I'm not a spokesperson for the community, I would reason I would know at least a bit more than you do about my own gender, if you are an actual muppet fan and are nb then you should know it's not really offensive at all. I'm trying hard not to be passive aggressive but it's not just the gonzorella thing as this thread shows, it's being undefined for decades, even in species, it's the official muppet comment with the bathrooms and honestly there's many things on this website that have much less sources for credibility which are taken as fact. I really want to respect your argument but it feels like we're at a point where the people in this thread are not arguing for little/no evidence of it being truth and are just opposed to one of their childhood characters being queer, which is just odd. Djampuu (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I understand where you coming from one hundred percent. I identify as a gay person so more than anything, I understand resentment and rejection more than you think. The bathrooms argument does support your claim greatly, however, Gonzorella has contexts that could paint just about any kinds of pictures. Muppets has been all over the place with context over the years, especially with Gonzo. However, you are correct that the description should remain unknown and I’ve changed it to just that a while ago also. I mean no ill-will, honest. --2607:FEA8:C82:6A00:7D0E:2D9E:E64A:443C (talk) 13:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate it, glad we can resolve this lmao Djampuu (talk) 16:24, 1 November 2023 (UTC)