Talk:Hadhramaut/Archive 1

Archive 1

"Hadranis" or "Hadramis"

An anonymous editor has revised "Hadranis" for "Hadramis" throughout. Which is the better designation for the people of the Hadhramaut? --Wetman 19:43, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

• Hadramis. There is no such thing as Hadranis in Yemen. --Karlosian 10:23, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

• Unless you came across الحضراني al-Ḥaḍrānī, a family name in Northern Yemen.9abdulla 08:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Lahij

Does the town/city of Lahij come in Hadhramaut? -Mlaheji 10:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

No, its actually in the Lahij province. Jidan 11:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

ODDLY ENOUGH, there is a place in the Israelo-Palestian state (specifically-speaking, in the Gaza strip) known from Biblical times called: La'heesh (לכיש). I wonder what the connection might be & if it means anything (it appears too "perfect" of "an identical twin-sounding" name to be just "conicidental"...! AK63 (talk) 09:16, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Surnames that starts with "Ba" or "Bin"

From the article:

The original inhabitants of Hadhramaut are Hadhramis with the surnames that starts with "Ba" or "Bin." These are the among the Qahtan Original Arabs. The Sayyids are migrants from the Iraq about 400 years ago.

Wait, I thought every Arab and his cousin had a surname that started with "bin" (Arabic for "son-of", no?) Can it be that anyone with a lastname starting with Bin is a Qahtan Original Arab? The Arabic name article states:

The nasab is a patronymic or series of patronymics. It indicates the person's heritage by the word ibn (sometimes bin) which means "son". Thus Ibn Khaldun means "son of Khaldun" (Khaldun is the father's ism, or proper name). Several nasab can follow in a chain, to trace a person's ancestry backwards in time.

Can anyone provide some clarity on this? - Eric 15:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. Ibn or just Bin means "son" in Arabic. Just like Ben in Hebrew. It usually signifies father's name, not ancestors e.g. Omar Bin Khattab means "Omar son of Khattab". However some Arabs e.g. Hadharmies use Bin to signify their tribe e.g. Omar Bin Ladin means "Omar of tribe of children of Ladin" because Omar is son of Osama, not Ladin. It is much similar to Arab tribes named as Banu Quresh meaning Tribe of descendants of Fahar aka Quresh, or Bani Israel meaning Tribe of descendants of Jacob aka Israel. In Europe the name Stevenson or Andersen does not mean a person is son of Steven or Andrew. Hassanfarooqi (talk) 16:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• These sentences have been removed:

The original inhabitants of Hadhramaut are Hadhramis with the surnames that starts with "Ba" or "Bin." These are the among the Qahtan Original Arabs. The Sayyids are migrants from the Iraq about 400 years ago.

The reasons are that "bin / ba" are not restricted to Qahtani tribes in Hadhramawt. Some other tribes have them, e.g. "bin Hashem", "bin 'Aqil", "ba 'Aqil" , "ba 'Aboud" etc. The "Sayyids" came from Madina through Iraq and settled in Hadhramawt 1200 years ago (not 400 years). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.154.153.159 (talk) 17:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

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Mountains

See this. Leo1pard (talk) 18:10, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Re: Hadhramaut

Since the Semitic languages of Arabic, Hebrew (as well as Aramaic) are SO CLOSELY related to each other & often compared to gleen at one word of (when in doubt about its meanibg oe etymology), for the other. I thought I may suggest a VERY PLAUSIBLE LINGUISTIC connection which, if further discussed/analyzed by people who may perhaps (& hopefully!) be experts in the field-or, in a manner similar to FB-Specialty group style, it may yield some results as per the value or validity' of my assumptions' (or, stated connections).

In Hebrew, there are 2 words which sound very similar (& are closely-related to if not derived from same source) of the word: حاضر . They are: He'der=חדר=room (from the verb to penetrate; get in) as well as: Ha'tser=חצר=court/yard. As per teh word موت, like in Arabic, Hebrew's word: Ma'vet=מוות (or, in the possessive: MOT...=...מות) means: Death. Can it then be that, for some traditional; historical &/or topographical/archaeological reason, the name of the place meant to be or dervied from the combination of words: The Court(yard) of Death...? AK63 (talk) 09:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

حاضر means arrived Abo Yemen✉ 10:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Origin of the name

Former text in the article: Though Bible dictionaries derive 'Hadhramaut' from Hazarmaveth, a son of Joktan in the Book of Genesis 10:26-28, the name 'Hadhramaut' actually derives from Greek hydreumata or enclosed (and often fortified) 'watering stations' at wadis. A hydreuma is a manned and fortified watering hole or way station along a caravan route. Juris Zarins, rediscoverer of the city of Ubar, described that site in a 'Nova' interview:

   'The site that we uncovered at Shisur was a kind of fortress/administration center set up to protect the water supply from raiding Bedouin tribes. Surrounding the site, as far as six miles away, were smaller villages, which served as small-scale encampments for the caravans. An interesting parallel to this are the fortified water holes in the Eastern Desert of Egypt from Roman times. There, they were called hydreumata.' 

Denials

The Origin of the name suggested in the article is completely preposterous. While the article as a whole needs to be rewritten giving due attention to the simple fact that Hadramaut has existed for thousands of years and not just since the British occupied it. The origin of the name is scientifically wrong. Hadramaut has been called that as far as Arabs can remember (written Arabic sources that confirm that would be about 14 years old). As such, it cannot possibly have a Greek origin. When did the civilizations of Yemen and Greece meet? How many other locales in the Arabian peninsula are named after Greek words? This is absolutely absurd. --Karlosian 10:23, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Whereas it's true that the contacts between Greece and South Arabia were minimal, they weren't totally non-existent. Certainly, the South Arabians had a peripheral knowledge of Greek civilization, as witnessed by the many South Arabian coins in the style of Athenian tetradrachms. I agree, though, that it's absurd to posit a Greek origin for the name "Hadramawt."

The popular etymology of the name means "the place of death." This, however, is probably also fanciful. (Unless, as hinted at by the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, there was a conscious effort on the part of the ancient inhabitants to protect themselves by overstating the perilousness of their terrain.) In my opinion, the most credible etymology is presented by Kamal Salibi (1991), wherein he posits that the name derives from "the green place"--a name that certainly fits the physical description of the Wadi Hadramawt when compared to its immediate surroundings. However, I'm not yet comfortable with the supposed Canaanite origin of the word. --Lugal 03:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

According to al-Dhafari ("kashkul al-Yaman" 14th October Newspaper,18 November, 1994, p. 10, later re-published in "Al-Yaman" journal, with the title The Meaning of Placenames in Yemen, published by the University of Aden), the name was originaly | ḥḍrmwt|, a combination of both | ḥḍr| "urban" (as opposed to |ʔʕrb|), "Bedouins") and |wt| which means a "place for settlement", while the |m| is the definte article. Therefore the name means, "place for the urban people". Versteegh (1997:23) maintains that " ... The population of the South Arabian empires did not call themselves "Arabs". [It is only] towards the end of the second century BCE, [that] some of the south Arabian inscriptions mention nomads called |ʕrb| (pl. |ʔʕrb|), who are contrasted with the sedentary population (| ḥḍr|) of the south..." (9abdulla 08:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC))

The unbiased reader of Wikipedia may judge whether the suppression of sourced information, now entered above, is more revealing than these ullulations of denial. --Wetman 16

28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wetman, thanks for including the Zarins quote. Now that I see where the supposition comes from, I think, it's safe to remove the entire bit about the Greek origin of the name from the Hadramawt article on the following grounds: 1) In the final sentence of Zarins' quote, "there" refers to the Eastern Desert of Egypt, not to the area around Shisur. And 2) even if it had referred to the area around Shisur, it should be noted that that site is not in the Hadramawt. Contemporary archaeological sites in Hadramawt proper are not arranged in the manner described, so it is highly unlikely that the entire region would be named for this particular settlement pattern. --Lugal 13:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

whatever its etymology, there is no reason to spell the name with dh. I suggest we move it to Hadramaut or Hadramawt. I agree that the Greek etymology appears unlikely in view of an Arabic root HDr. dab (ᛏ) 12:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason for spelling the name with a dh is because that's a frequent transliteration of the Arabic character ض. That said, the most common English transliteration is "Hadramawt"--with a d instead of a dh--so we should probably go with that. Other common transliterations are Hadhramawt, Hadhramaut, and Hadramut. My personal preference for technical writings is Ḥaḍramūt. Are there proper redirections for all the various spellings? --Lugal 14:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC) I agree with the spelling Ḥaḍramūt. At least this is the local pronunciation. Consider also the -ūt in some other place-names in the region like barhūt, saiḥūt, ḥabrūt,and even when the South Arabians (the Phoenicians) established new cities on the Mediterranean, we find names like bairūt (Beirut). (9abdulla 08:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC))

Correction to Wetman's "Denials"

The inclusion of Wetman's idle speculation on the origin of the name "Hadramawt" has troubled me for years. As I now hold a PhD for archaeological work conducted in the Wadi Hadramawt, and as I am therefore quite concerned with the quality of this Wikipedia entry, I feel obligated to correct this mistake. In the coming days I intend to contact professor Zarins, and write a new section on the etymology of the name, highlighting the two major theories: "The Place of Death/Death has Come" vs. "The Green Place/The Urban Settlement." (In my opinion, these are two slightly different takes on the same argument, rather than four distinct arguments, though I am willing to entertain all reasonable contrary explanations--my expertise, after all is in archaeology, not religious history or comparative linguistics.) Lugal (talk) 02:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Is this article about the governanate or the ancient kingdom?

I don't understand what does the "independent" sultanate of Quaiti and Kathiri has to do with hadramout? is the article about them or about the pre islamic kingdom of hadramout or what exactly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by يوسف حسين (talk • contribs) 14:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

In answer to the question in the header, clearly Hadhramaut Governorate exists as an article about the governorate. We also need an article explaining the earlier Hadhramauts, which is a more inclusive subject, so this is it. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

okay that would be the "kingdom of Hadramout" which was an ancient kingdom from 300 B.C to 275 AD.. again what the sultanates or claimed " descendants of Mohammed" have to do with this? --يوسف حسين (talk) 15:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see anything about sultanates or Mohammed in the reference or map you removed. I don't get what you are doing, but will you please restore the map showing ancient Hadhramaut and the reference citing the fact that Hadhramaut is an ancient region? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

why? because it shows

well don't you think the map you provided contradict the description? The article was clearly separatists talking about an imaginary independent sultanate in the introduction. again, is this article about the ancient kingdom or hadramout in general?--يوسف حسين (talk) 15:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

You are continuing to edit war to remove maps and references that pertain to the scope of the article, Hadhramaut. I don't want to get bogged into 3RR with you, Kendite, but since there should be no confusion about the scope when Hadhramaut Governorate exists, would you please restore the pertinent information yourself? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:05, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

no i won't because first of all you do not know anything about the subject , i'm asking you again what is this article about exactly? Is it about the modern history of hadramout or the ancient kingdom? because the arabic link refers to the ancient kingdom. therefore your "independent" Sultanates have nothing to do with the introduction or the definition of hadramout. I don't know what "decendant of Mohammed" has to do with this ancient kingdom and what exactly is your source that ghassanid migrated from hadramout?--يوسف حسين (talk) 15:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

OK I see now that the previous lede statement you removed did mention these sultanates and stated that Hadhramaut was also the name of their formerly independent kingdom. You're right, I don't know enough about the subject to know if this is correct. I will assume good faith if you say it is not, because I don't know who added that claim. But would you at least restore the ancient map? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Sure--يوسف حسين (talk) 15:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Hadramawt Map fixed

Sumharam inaccurate location Sumharam is a coastal town, but the map previously used on Hadramawt article shows it (inland)

Compare: The Old Map previously used in the Hadramawt article:

The new map I drew for the Hadramawt article, with accurate details:

An unregistered user, removed the map I drew from scratch (worked hours on) & I hope he can come here & explain why?

The actual location of Sumhuram is on the coast (17°2′20.4″N 54°26′4″E). Not inland as the older map

The second issue the map is used specifically for Hadramaut & Hadramite, so it will naturally focus on the subject which might be an issue? Tiwahi (talk) 19:00, 19 November 2017 (UTC)