Talk:Helen Zille

I understand that Helen Zille was the journalist who revealed the death of Steve Biko at the hands of the security police. If that's true, it is worthy of mention in this article.165.146.189.82 13:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Not that I know of, or that a cursory google search reveals. I'll look around a bit more, though. dewet|✉ 13:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

...and just as I hit submit, I find the link. Here's an IOL story about her, with the following paragraph:

Zille, a former journalist who was praised by her peers for her role in exposing the brutalities that led to the death in detention of the Black Consciousness leader Steve Biko, is the national spokesperson for the Democratic Alliance.

So I guess that's enough of a cite, no? dewet|✉ 13:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

That's as much as I heard (which was on Cape Talk Radio). It was a comment made in response to a listener who was making the jump from Zille being white, and DA, to the "obvious" fact that she would then be anti-black.192.96.88.227 12:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Multilingualism.

Under 'Early Life and Career', it says "Zille is also able to speak Xhosa." And that's the sum total of her linguistic capacities, apparently... In actual fact, she is perfectly fluent in at least FOUR languages: English, Afrikaans, Xhosa, and German. Perhaps the article should reflect this. FlyBang 17:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fine but it earns a cite tag. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 15:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Her grand uncle is ...

Heinrich Zille (so it is said in the german articles about both Heinrich and Helen Zille and i read this in german newspapers too). --78.48.192.223 18:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Size of image

It seems a little too large, could it be rescaled down again. Teatreez (talk) 19:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

yeah the size is a lot too large and big and huge. it is very inorhodox with other articles and should be scaled down to a more reasonalbe size like the other articles on prominient political figures such as Franklin Roosevelt Josef STalin and Calvin Coolidge.Smith Jones (talk) 20:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Better now? - htonl (talk) 19:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Anachronism

"Zille began her career as a political journalist for the Rand Daily Mail, where she famously exposed the truth behind Steve Biko's death.[2] At this time she became politically active in the Democratic Party." - well, Biko's death was in 1977 and the DP was formed in 1989. Presumably she was active in the PFP, but this would need to be cited. Zaian (talk) 12:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere that she joined the Black Sash - now if only I can remember where! Roger (talk) 15:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews

Perhaps there is a way of linking the article to the multiple news stories that she is attached to on a daily basis?Teatreez (talk) 03:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

There don't seem to be any Wikinews stories about her. http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=zille&go=Go returns nothing. --GRuban (talk) 15:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

"South African Jews" category

Should this article really be in Category:South African Jews? It's a cited fact that she attends the Rondebosch United Church, so she's not Jewish in the religious sense. According to the article, her mother's father and her father's mother were Jewish, which would not make her Jewish by the traditional matrilineal rule. - htonl (talk) 01:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, that would depend on whether the category is primarily viewed as that of a religious grouping, or as an ethnic grouping? If the latter, universal rules for categorisation should apply (part-French would mean French and something else, i.e. both categories?), not culturally-limited ones (such as matrilineality). I think the dominant world view on the topic of ethnicity these days is a genetic-centered one. That said, I hate classifying people. It's becoming more and more fluid/meaningless. — Gk sa (talk) 02:46, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Home Language?

I can see she can speak four languages, with German obviously being her parents' tongue, but what language does she speak at home? --Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe she also speaks Dutch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.144.100.44 (talk) 18:27, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. Why doesn't the article say what her mother tongue is? Obviously she speaks Afrikaans and English but what is her first language?--Xania ^talk 21:57, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I do sometimes get the feeling she may speak Afrikaans at home? Her husband seems to be Afrikaans and if so she probably speaks it at home? I still have no clue.. Bezuidenhout (talk) 06:44, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality issues

This page is in severe need of some NPOV edits -- everything here is praise, or posited in a way to shine the best possible light on Zille; contrast it with the articles on other South African politicians, which tend to be at least half criticism. This would be suspect in itself, but I've also found some of the references to be blogs or have little to do with what is supposed to be referenced. I know it's common for the supporters of politicians (or, more cynically, their staff) to edit Wikipedia pages in that person's favor, but this might be the most extensive and well-covered one I've seen. The partisans are getting more sophisticated, I guess. Undeniably (talk) 07:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

That was my impression too. It would be interesting to analyse how many of the references are to (a) speeches or articles by Zille herself, or (b) articles based solely on press-friendly statements made by Zille, her office and her party, and (c) how much of this article is based entirely on those sources. Zaian (talk) 20:15, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I've trimmed a bit; on further investigation I see that most of the DA press release stuff I edited was added in a single uncritical dollop by User:Mulaudzi8 in early 2009. Need to watch that. Zaian (talk) 20:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Julius Malema

Hi Helen

I fully support your views in current affairs. It's well thought through, to the point and to the asvantage of all South Africans. Just want to say your views and actions already taken against Julius Malema - I fully support. Furthermore, if I were the journalist who Malema verbally abuse during a news conference on e-TV today, I would take serious actions against him. He's not above the law and needs to be taken on. How can I help/

Johnnie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.4.81.45 (talk) 15:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi there; this is a Wikipedia talk page for discussing the article about Helen Zille, and it is very unlikely that you will be able to get in touch with her here. If you want to send her a message I would suggest you email her at leader@da.org.za (in her capacity as DA leader) or premier@pgwc.gov.za (in her capacity as Premier of the Western Cape). Thanks, htonl (talk) 16:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Sentence about Jewish grandparents

About this sentence, which Roger removed:

Her grandfather (on her mother's side) and her grandmother (on her father's side) were Jewish

It seems to me that this should be seen in the context of the previous sentence:

Helen Zille was born in Johannesburg, the eldest child of parents who separately left Germany in the 1930s.

inasmuch as the fact that some of her grandparents were Jewish presumably explains why her parents left Germany, and therefore maybe the sentence should stay. Thoughts? - htonl (talk) 14:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I missed the implied connection between the two sentences, maybe it should then be rephrased to make the connection more explicit. Roger (talk) 14:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, what you've done with it seems fine to me. - htonl (talk) 15:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, how about we actually source the supposed fact that she has Jewish ancestry to start with, together with the assertion that her parents were refugees (Jewish or otherwise) from Nazi Germany? This information has been in the article completely unsourced since May 2007, when an anonymous IP editor added it.

In the absence of such sources, I have removed both statements for now. I suggest that anyone who is able to find citations to corroborate these statements use reliable sources from prior to May 2007, as later ones (especially news and media articles) might themselves have used Wikipedia as their primary source for this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.33.207 (talk) 02:42, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

critique

A section with critique is missing. --41.151.250.9 (talk) 12:20, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

It is under the heading "Controversies" - it probably needs to be expanded. Roger (talk) 12:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Picture

The picture used for this page is outdated in my opinion. It is not a good representation of how Zille usually looks nowadays; she almost always wears glasses for instance. Anyone has a more recent photo? -- Darthdyas (talk) 10:10, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

World Mayor

The 3rd paragraph, states that Helen Zille was given the award as World Mayor in 2008 due to her success in fighting crime, drug abuse and unemployment. Two references are given. The statement is inaccurate and is not supported by the references cited. The first reference (#8) simply states that she was given the award but no reasons are mentioned as to why it was given to her. The second reference (#9) is to a page that is not publicly available and thus cannot be checked.

According to the website of the organisation that awards the World Mayor prize, testimonials from residents are taken into account when choosing who gets the prize. I could find no other criteria mentioned in general or specifically to the case of Zille.

With certainty I can say that neither crime, drug abuse nor unemployment in Cape town showed any significant change under Zille's tenure. So it cannot be given as the reason for her award. Perhaps the statement should read:

In 2008, Zille received the World Mayor of the Year Award. Her selection as recipient of the award is attributed to testimonials submitted by her supporters. Reference: http://www.worldmayor.com/contest_2008/world-mayor-2008-methodology.html

(Note that crime, drug abuse and unemployment are not mentioned in the reference). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.226.108.224 (talk) 20:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I've fixed the broken reference - A news article on Independent Online - and also added another cite to a page on worldmayor.com that does go into the reasons for the award. It cites her anti-corruption stance and service delivery record in the face of underhanded tactics by the ANC to discredit and remove her. Roger (talk) 21:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

This is another request to please fix the statement, as it is not supported by the references cited. If you follow the link from reference #9:- In the 5th paragraph of the 'Helen Zille' section it states that she received the most passionate and eloquent support - that is the reason for receiving the award. From that point on it gives the testimonials, all of them clearly enclosed in quotation marks showing that it is not the view of the selectors, but rather the opinions of her supporters. Inside those quotes are the only references made to the underhanded ANC tactics, anti crime successes, and service delivery record. It is incorrect for Wikipedia to pass the supporters statements as the factual reasons for receiving the award when the reason given was (taken from reference #9): During the World Mayor 2008, Helen Zille has had the most passionate and eloquent support of any candidate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.226.108.224 (talk) 19:35, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Helen Zille/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I gave this article a B-class rating, because I believe that at the moment the article: properly explains the topic provides a significant measure of information regarding the topic, this being relevant and can satisfy most users no real NPOV violations However, it does still require some work: Many other image More information -- gaps need filling -- Chris Lester talk 17:02, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:02, 25 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 17:35, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

King Dalindyebo

There is a section on King Dalindyebo on the page, relating to his controversial, albeit temporary, membership of the DA - led by Party Leader Helen Zille at the time. Helen Zille was involved, according to Reliable Sources, in welcoming him into the party.

This section has been deleted on a number of occasions and I have sought to reinsert it as being of interest to people seeking to understand Zille's role as Party Leader, as well as being newsworthy and supported by Reliable Sources - eg. http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/news/2013/07/23/zille-defends-decision-to-embrace-abathembu-king/

What to do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.180.49.16 (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

It is part of the party's history, but in this article, the biography of Helen Zille, it is simply WP:UNDUE. The fact that she was the leader at the time is of relatively little significance - the "Dalindyebo saga" would have played out pretty much the same, regardless of who led the party. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:06, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Good to try and resolve this here. Google search on Zille Dalindyebo returns over 9000 results, including this one, which suggests that Zille was very involved in defending the decision to invite him into the party: http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/2013/07/22/zille-defends-abathembu-king-membership/ Zille also shared a stage with the King. There are many Reliable Sources that report on this matter and show how Zille was involved. The whole affair was very newsworthy for Zille and the DA - the article shared here says that it raised a storm in the party. So hardly just 'throwaway involvement' on the part of Zille??? If necessary, I suggest we get Wikipedia to resolve the matter - you make the case that it is 'undue' and I will share the relevant Reliable Sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.91.250.114 (talk) 05:09, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the question of whether the Dalindyebo is 'Undue', I would refer to this section of the WP:UNDUE page: "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. Remove material only where you have a good reason to believe it misinforms or misleads readers in ways that cannot be addressed by rewriting the passage." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.180.49.16 (talk) 10:51, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

SAbreakingnews.co.za is not a reliable source. AWildAppeared (talk) 14:17, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

You may be right. Here is another source for the same news: http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/zille-defends-kings-da-membership-1550978 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.180.49.16 (talk) 14:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

In other words, the only notable thing is that she said that the DA do not prevent anyone from joining the party as an ordinary member, and that criminals are not welcome in the party. That can be noted somewhere, but it does not warrant a whole subsection, especially not in the controversy section. It's a sentence somewhere else. AWildAppeared (talk) 19:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

There are many other Reliable Sources as well about Zille's involvement in this controversy and also the other things she said, how she shared a stage with Dalindyebo etc. I can re-write the whole section if you prefer, quoting all the Reliable Sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.91.250.114 (talk) 20:34, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Why are we discussing this, then? The only reason it was being removed was because the sources provided didn't support the inclusion of the topic. If you can improve it, improve it. It needs to be improved or deleted—it's a BLP issue. AWildAppeared (talk) 20:46, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

OK, I will improve it and add further reliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.180.49.16 (talk) 10:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Barring a good rewrite and citation by the above editor today, I'll be condensing the section to a sentence and moving it elsewhere soon, for the following reasons: it's a BLP violation, the sources don't justify its inclusion, and even if they do, it's given undue weight. The AIDS thing and the failed merger with AGANG were much, much bigger stories, but Dalindyebo is given the same weight as them. That's not right. Anyone who has an issue with this can take it to arbitration. In fact, that might be the best thing; if you're familiar with those procedures, please, feel free to inform the Powers That Be about this dispute. The reverter here is a detriment to the quality of this article. AWildAppeared (talk) 10:11, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Removed excessive detail from the colonialism controversy section

I have reverted a large addition of poorly sourced material that included extensive unreferenced quotes as well as material of only marginal relevance. The section is already quite long, the addition made it clearly excessive. This one controversy is just a small part of Zille's history, letting it expand to take up so much of the article is the very definition of undue weight. -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:00, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Dispute over the content of the article on Helen Zille and her views about colonialism

I have a dispute with one editor, Neljack, on the content of the article about Helen Zille which has led to reversion by both of us.

He/she claims the material I have used are "poorly sourced" and is my "personal point of view" despite the fact that I have provided documented sources and what I posted has absolutely nothing to do with being my personal opinion. I quoted what others said, the same thing Helen Zille said, not what I said. How does that become my personal point view?

This seems to be a deliberate attempt to tilt the article against the subject (Helen Zille) by protecting her critics and deleting any content which provides a balanced account of the subject as I have attempted to do by providing additional sources which clearly show other people, not just Helen Zille, have said the same thing she said that colonial rule had some benefits despite being a system of oppression and exploitation.

What she said led to her being called a racist and an apologist for colonial rule. If she is one, because of what she said, then the same thing applies to Nelson Mandela and Kwame Nkrumah and other African leaders who said there were some benefits to Africans from colonial rule. They are also apologists for colonial rule. Why not them as well? Why just Helen Zille? Why selective condemnation, targeting her alone and shielding some African leaders who have said the same thing she did?

By the way, I am a Black African and we, as black people, don't have a monopoly over virtue when it comes to assessing the impact of colonial rule on Africa. Objective assessment of colonial rule should be the sole aim if telling the truth about it is what we claim we want to do. Targeting only whites, or any other non-blacks, for saying things we don't like even if they tell the truth – the same truth we acknowledge, even if privately - is another form of racism that should not be tolerated or condoned.

This is what I posted on the “Talk” page about the dispute I have with Neljack on the article about Helen Zille:

"Helen Zille was a leading political activist during the apartheid era and campaigned against racial oppression and discrimination, incurring the wrath of the white minority regime. She even received death threats because of her uncompromising stand agaist racism and when she uncovered the death of South African leading political activist Steve Biko at the hands of the police. She was the first journalist to report that Steve Biko was killed in police custody. According to a report by BBC, "Helen Zille of South Africa's Democratic Alliance - A Profile," 25 April 2014: "Long before pursuing a career in politics, Ms Zille was a journalist with the now-defunct liberal Rand Daily Mail newspaper. Her greatest scoop as a political reporter came in 1977 when she uncovered how Black Consciousness activist Steve Biko - Ms Ramphele's partner - had been tortured to death while in police custody."

To accuse her of being racist is rank dishonesty. Many of her critics did not do as much as she did to fight apartheid. Many people, besides her, have expressed the same view that colonial rule had some benefits, although it was a system of oppression and exploitation to serve the interests of the colonisers and cannot be justified. But it did have some benefits to the colonised. They took advantage of that and continued to build their countries partly based on the foundations laid by the colonial rulers. To deny that is to ignore historical evidence. But even those benefits cannot be used to justify colonial rule. But they have to be acknowledged; that is what Helen Zille did and so have others. Ghana's first president, Kwame Nkrumah, acknowledged that the British had taught Africans many good things and Africans would continue to learn from them. I included that portion, and a quotation from his speech in which Nkrumah admitted that. But it was deleted. I reverted it.

Moeletsi Mbeki, the younger brother of former South African president, Thabo Mbeki, articulated the same position. That portion was also deleted. I put it back for the same reason: to provide a neutral point of view and as a counter-balance to the one-sided nature of the article as if it is only Helen Zille who has expressed those views and therefore deserves to be criticised.

If you can criticise her for saying that colonial rule was beneficial in some respects, also criticise Nelson Mandela and Kwame Nkrumah for making the same point she made.

If you are going to include in the article what she said about the benefits of colonial rule, also include what Nkrumah and Mandela and other people have said about the same thing: that colonial rule brought some benefits to Africans. That's no ground for deletion of what they said; very much to the contrary - it's grounds for inclusion of what they said. Any further deletion will lead to further reversion of those portions of the article. Or else, the matter should be resolved by arbitration - even if it leads to blocking both of us from further editing Wikipedia articles because of repeated reversions he and I have made.

It seems critics of Helen Zille don't want it to be known there are many prominent Africans, including the two presidents I named, Nkrumah and Mandela, who hold the same view she does on the benefits of colonial rule to Africans; for, that invalidates their case against her since they want to portray her as an apologist for colonial rule. It also tarnishes the image of Mandela and Nkrumah, liberation icons, and portrays them as apologists for colonial rule. If Helen Zille is an apologist for colonial rule because of wehat she said, so was Mandela and Nkrumah, if you use the same criterion. Deleting portions which show there are other prominent people who have expressed the same view Zille has, is also a thinly disguised attempt to shield Nelson Mandela and Kwame Nkrumah from the same criticism that has been directed against her that she is an apologist for colonialism. Why not Nkrumah and Mandela being apologists for colonial rule, as well, since they said the same thing she did? User:Dave1959 19 September 2017."

(talk) 03:10, 21 September 2017 (UTC)