Talk:Horatio Hornblower/Archive 1

Archive 1

Capital and Corporal punishment

"He is philosophically opposed to corporal punishment to the extent that he contrives escape for a crewman condemned to the yard-arm in Hornblower and the Hotspur. This, despite believing that severe corporal punishment (e.g. flogging round the fleet and keelhauling) is the only way to maintain discipline in the face of severe privation." Doesn't this contradict itself? Should the first "corporal punishment" be "capital punishment"? -R. fiend

Yes. Amazing how long obvious errors can go unnoticed, isn't it? --Paul A 05:38, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Also, does somebody have a source for the fact that he belives that extreme corporal punishment is necessary? As far as I can tell, he does use normal flogging (if rarely), but considers flogging round the fleet to be barbaric.--Stephan Schulz 18:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it is probably fairer to say that he objects to unjust or abusive punishments. He does approve hangings in soem circumstances, but finds them at bast a distateful neccisity. I don't belive that keelhauling is ever mentioned in the Hornblower saga, and the only commnets I recall about "flogging round the fleet" by Hornblowr describe it as "torture" and as a far worse punishment than hanging. DES ^(talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken "flogging around the fleet" was typically fatal. So, perhaps we should class it as capital punishment.-- Geo Swan 03:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You guys are misunderstanding the use of naval terminology:

1. "Corporal" punishment, by definition, refers to physical punishment, as opposed to depriving a man of pay or privileges. Capital punishment is simply the most extreme form of the category of corporal punishment.
2. Flogging round the fleet was not defined as "capital" punishment -- nor was it always fatal. It was an extended version of the common punishment of flogging, . . . which, usually, was more than a man could survive. But the court that sentenced a prisoner to flogging round the fleet did not explicitly sentence him to death, therefore it was not legally capital punishment. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 01:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Early Career

The section on Hornoblower's early career is incorrect, in stating that his exploit with the fireships led to his capture. Hornblower was captured as prizemaster of sloop Le Reve, carrying despatches and a VIP passenger. He inadvertently sailed amongst a Spanish fleet. --User:T Holzwarth

You're right, and I fixed it. --Stephan Schulz 23:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Highest rank

Can anyone tell me the highest rank Hornblower achieved? Thanks. --Auximines 12:20, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Admiral of the Fleet, in 1848, when he met Louis Napoleon at Smallbridge --GABaker

In the main novels, he is Rear Admiral of the Red in Hornblower in the West Indies. As noted above, he has a higher rank in some of the posthumously published stories. --Stephan Schulz 18:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I belive that "The last Encounter" had magazine publication while Dorester was still alive, although the book publication (in Hornblower during the Crisis) was after Forester's death. DES ^(talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Based on Specific historical characters?

Regarding whether Hornblower's career, or Hornblower's character, were based on any specific historical character... I don't believe there are any incidents that are borrowed from the careers of either Nelson or Cochrane.

How Hornblower differed from Nelson

Hornblower	Nelson
Joined at 18 yo	Joined at 12 yo
Early promotion due to merit	Early promotion due to nepotism
Shy	Outgoing
Self-deprecating	blowhard
Midshipman in 1794	Senior Captain in 1794
Promoted to Lieutenant following Battle of St Vincent	Promoted to Admiral following the Battle of St Vincent
Superb Navigator and mathematician	Had to rely on more capable officers to navigate
Never commanded a fleet in battle	Famous for half a dozen fleet actions

A similar table could be made for Cochrane, or Pellew, or Parker, or Saumarez, or any of the couple of dozen other notable Naval officers of the period. Saumarez, for instance, was the officer commanding the British Baltic squadron during the period CSF puts HH there.

I think you will find that the campaign in Ship of the Line is fairly closely based on one of Cochrane's campaigns. DES ^(talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Hornblower Compared with Cochrane

Hornblower	Cochrane
Joined at 18 yo	Joined at 17 yo
Son of a Doctor, had no influence	Heir to a title
Midshipman in 1794	appointed acting lieutenant in 1795
Promoted to Rear Admiral sometime after Waterloo	appointed a rear admiral in 1832
Superb Navigator and mathematician	Competent seman and navigator; naval inventor
Never commanded a fleet in battle	Commanded in only a singel fleet action late in his carrer
Privately distressed by corruption in the Navy	outspoken critic of corruption in the Navy

In terms of character may I suggest the reason 20th Century types can indetify with HH was that he was basically a 20th Century man transported to the early 19th Century, so his character will be unlike any real 19th Century captains. -- Geo Swan 19:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I quite agree with this. DES ^(talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Agree somewhat. I think he is a typical enlightenment thinker (remember, this is the age of the American and French revolutions - Franklin, Jefferson, Montesquieu, Locke, Paine are well-known figures). Another point: According to my copy of Mr. Midshipman Hornblower, Hornblower joined Justinian at age 17 (or so he claims - it was popular to make oneself older, but not younger).--Stephan Schulz 21:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

As names were being added to the "Inspirations" section, of RN officers claimed as models for Hornblower, I thought it best to reduce the list to the few examples given by the National Maritime Museum, with a link to the page on the NMM site explaining the wide scope of probable source material. --Mabzilla (talk) 17:55, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I have just added Jeremiah Coghlan as he seems to have been another contender with regard to some of his exploits and also his relationship with Pellew on the Indefatigable. Theheatwick (talk) 13:21, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Surprised nobody has made any comparison to Cuthbert Collingwood... Collingwood was against flogging and impressment as well as having a reputation for kindness, duty, caring, and being humane. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.225.8.248 (talk) 19:21, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

keel-hauling

Removed reference to keel-hauling: I can't remember any instance and since this was illegal and normally deadly (according to the wikipedia page) I can't see CSF writing H doing or supporting it.

For that matter, he certainly accepts corporal punishment, but definitely approve of it?

I belive on several occasions he disapproves of it in principle but belives it is essential in practice, at least in the conditions of the Royal Navy. Also, when "Midshipman Prince" endangers the ship due to carelessness, Hornblower orders him beaten (or beats him personally, I can't recall which), and muses that one good thing about corporal punishment is the release of feelings it gies to those who carry it out. Hornblower strongly objects to the abusive beatings of Wellard in Lieutenant Hornblower, and they are part of the evidence that the captain ther is a tyrant. DES 1 July 2005 16:46 (UTC)

The prince wasn't beaten; he had trouble sitting down afterwards, but it wasn't especially severe punishment for what he did. Then again, he was a prince. I also can't recall keel-hauling being mentioned at all. Clarityfiend 06:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Keel-hauling -- which was never widely done in any case -- was banned sometime in the 1760s. Well before the American Revolution, anyway. Sam Willis cites a date in one of his books. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 02:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

List of characters

The list of royal navy charcters is seriously incomplete, although is claims to be complete: for example, it doesn't list any of the squadron captins from Commodore Hornblower except Bush. DES 1 July 2005 16:46 (UTC)

More Real Chracters

I added some real historical characters, though there is a much larger list. Some that I could not find in Wikipedia's articles but suspect to be real: Caillard from Flying Colors, Marsden from the Crisis, and innumerable minor officials in Admiral.

Agreed. The four Frigate captains sent out after the Spanish Flota were all real officers. I suspect the captains who convened to examine lieutenants were also real officers. It wouldn't surprise me if all, well most, of the officers at Collingwood's dinner party were real historical figures. My recollection was that Clausewitz was only a Colonel at the time the novel was written. -- Geo Swan 14:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I linked Rear Admiral Parker (character in "Hornblower and the Atropos") with the the Wikipedia article on the first of that name - he seemed the more likely of the two, though he died the year before the events described in the novel - presuming either artistic licence or a slip on Forester's part.--Mabzilla (talk) 16:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Unlike O'Brian and some of the more recent authors of Napoleonic naval fiction, Forester never worried about biographical details of real people who appeared in his stories, or the details of other historical events, for that matter. He said in an interview once that he had "no idea" whether a British squadron had existed in the Baltic (I think it was) at the time he put them there -- and that it didn't matter, because he was "telling a story, not writing history." Remember that he was writing the Hornblower stories for magazine serial publication during the 1930s and '40s, and for a relatively unsophisticated audience. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 02:10, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

In his "Hornblower Companion", Forester wrote: "I knew a British Squadron in actual fact had pushed its way up into the Baltic." and that "Bonaparte's attack on Russia, directed against St Petersburg while he himself marched on Moscow, had been held up at Riga". When a historian, a personal friend, wrote to say that he knew that British forces were engaged at Riga but that he hadn't been able to find out much about them, Forester replied that his story was based on probability and felt that the harsh rebuke he then received from his friend was undeserved. I think that sums up quite well the sometimes uneasy relationship between historian and historical novelist. Forester considered the proper subject for literature "men and women", and treated historical events as an armature for fiction. Other writers, such as O'Brian, put a great deal more of factual material into their work; whether or not one prefers that approach is a matter of taste. Having written that, my favourite passage in "Hornblower" is in the final chapter of the unfinished "Hornblower and the Crisis"; the condemned (fictional?) forger Doctor Claudius bargains for his life when asked by the (historical) Secretary to the Admiralty William Marsden to forge French dispatches. Does anyone know of a prototype for Claudius? The nearest I can think of is William Dodd, of "when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight it concentrates his mind wonderfully" fame. --Mabzilla (talk) 12:20, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Order of the Hornblower books?

The book articles need infoboxes, but is there a consensus on their order—publishing order vs. internal chronology? —wwoods 22:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer internal chronology, although I don't know if this is consensus.--Stephan Schulz 22:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd also prefer an internal chronology. The particular version of the series which I read has the titles printed on the back cover using the internal chronlogy, if you feel that's important. MeredithParmer 01:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm also in favour of internal chronological order. Sure, there are inconsistencies, which might be less obvious reading them in published order, but they're still there. Certainly the omnibus editions place them in internal chronological order.--Myk 10:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I've read and reread them as a kid (and I still do ;-), and while inconsistencies are certainly there, they're not really obvious. Although I always wondered how Bush got from Hotspur to Lydia... --Stephan Schulz 11:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The novels' articles

I've been perusing the articles on the individual Hornblower novels recently, and I noticed that most of them are in need of some work. I've begun general cleanup (e.g. fixing spelling, wording, and wikilinks), but if anyone is willing to help, I'd appreciate it. I think it might be nice to expand the articles about each novel. Sorry for posting this here, but I figured it would be ignored if I put it on the individual talk pages. Thanks. MeredithParmer 09:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I probably won't finish it today, but I'll start on Flying Colours. --Stephan Schulz 09:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm done. Please take a look. --Stephan Schulz 00:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well done, the article certainly looks much better than it did before. Flying Colours is my favorite of all the Hornblower books, so I'm glad it has a decent article now. I've decided to continue with general cleanup of all the novel articles. I've finished Mr. Midshipman Hornblower and The Happy Return. MeredithParmer 00:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Lord Hornblower" or "Baron Hornblower"?

The book Lord Hornblower does not mention Hornblower's promotion to Baron. It has him, as the name implies, simply made "Lord Hornblower". Unfortunately, the way I read the aritcle's version of the events in that book, he became "Baron Hornblower" while in France. Will (Talk - contribs) 04:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an authority, but I don't think you can be 'simply made "Lord Hornblower"'—you have to have a specific title.

Baron says, "Non-Scottish barons are styled The Right Honourable The Lord [Barony]. ... Normally one refers to or addresses Baron X as Lord X and his wife as Lady X."

Lord says, "Five ranks of peer exist in the UK, namely Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron; and all male peers except dukes use the style "Lord X". The title "Lord" also applies by courtesy to certain of their children, ... Barons, in particular, are almost never referred to as anything but "Lord X". "

—wwoods 05:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Somewhere in the novels (I'm thinking the opening to Commodore, where Hornblower reflects on the little village he's got...or is that Lord Hornblower?) Hornblower discusses his choice to stick with his last name rather than do what Pellew did, for example, and become "Lord Exmouth." Hornblower's village was Smallbridge and Hornblower thought "Lord Smallbridge" sounded a bit silly. 152.23.196.162 01:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, "Lord Hornblower" does mention Hornblower's being made a Baron. Chapter 16, after he rereads the document raising him to the Peerage: "So now he was a Peer of the realm, a Baron of the United Kingdom, Lord Hornblower of Smallbridge, County of Kent" (Penguin Edition - I don't know whether other editions differed for some reason).--Mabzilla 21:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Book and Timeline templates

Unless someone objects, I will create a Hornblower book info block template and a Hornblower timeline template, and add them to each of the Hornblower book articles. I should have time to do this over the weekend. Since I barely know what I am doing, I will copy shamelessly from an existing template set. Arch dude 01:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Captain Horatio Hornblower

I am currently reading Captain Horatio Hornblower in the US and it contains the books Beat to Quarters, Ship of the Line, and Flying Colours. Is this the same for all versions of the book or just some either way the page needs to be changed. Rearete 21:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the omnibus editions (I have the individual books), but the three books you mention are the source of the old Gregoy Peck movie "Captain Horatio Hornblower". Maybe it's a movie tie-in? It certainly makes sense to bundle the three, as they cover Hornblower's relationship with Lady Barbara up to the (first) happy end. --Stephan Schulz 22:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I have also read several other of the books in the series and they all mark those three books as being in the book Captain Horatio Hornblower.Rearete 02:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The copy of the three-in-one omnibus volume, Captain Horatio Hornblower, that I inherited from my father was published in 1939. The Gregory Peck movie came out in 1951. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 02:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I have a Captain Hornblower, R.N published by Michael Joseph, London 1939. It contains The Happy return, A Ship of the Line and Flying Colours. The same omnibus edition was also re-published by The Reprint Society, London 1940.82.37.163.124 (talk) 19:35, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Death

How exaclty does Hornblower's death get pinned in as 12 January 1857? I've read all the novels and,as far as I know, the last short story (in terms of the chronology of his life), The Last Encounter, and it makes no mention of when he dies. (Sonlee 09:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC))

Just linked to Wm. Bush

Just linked to Bush's article in the "Life" section.

For the record, it was very difficult to figure out how to make the link work properly. =( 152.23.196.162 06:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Where is Marie?

Um, I'm an avid fan of the Hornblower novels (have all of them, still trying to read Commodore and Admiral), and I couldn't help but notice that the life section leaves a lot of stuff out. Most importantly, there is no mention of Marie, the French daughter-in-law of le Comte de Gracay. Since she is incredibly important to the overall story (she was his lover on two different occasions, and she dies in battle at his side in the most tragic scene of the entire series), I just thought someone might want to put some small mention in the article. Thanks. Chrisalbro 23:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

This is just a short summary, more details are in the individual articles, in this case in Flying Colours and Lord Hornblower. BTW, I don't agree about the importance of Marie. She serves to display certain facettes of Hornblower's character, but is not really important for the overall story arc. --Stephan Schulz 23:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

GCB or KB?

I thought his...pedigree...I don't know the terminology...Hornblower's a Knight of the Bath, and I thought the letters after his name were KB, rather than GCB. The article on the Order of the Bath says that prior to 1815 there was only one class (KB) and Hornblower was knighted before 1815. I'm not going to edit it until somebody either agrees with me or disagrees and explains why I'm incorrect. =) 152.23.196.162 17:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sawyer

Surely some mention of Sawyers Death is warranted

regards HH —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.110.109.210 (talk • contribs).

It's mentioned in Lieutenant Hornblower. I think that suffices. If you disagree, feel free to add it to the main article. But remember, we don't need to tell the whole story at the very top level. --Stephan Schulz 16:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

style

Most of this article is in "historical present tense" which is awkward when used at length. I'll try to remember to come back and do a major coversion copyedit. Not acceptable for WP, in my view. Anyone want to help? ww 05:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Pointless lists

I've removed list of characters from the page: serves no purpose, and offers interest to only a die-hard fan. Belongs on a fan site, not here. Seeing a 'never-ending' list just put me off reading the page. If anyone's desperate for the info, you can retrieve it from the edit history, but it will need serious work if anyone is to make it suitable for an encyclopedia. The ships and historiacl figures lists might be better worked into prose on the relevant book pages. Gwinva 11:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd strongly disagree on all points. Given that the Hornblower books are notable for their integration of historical figures and, also, the actual interest of historical fiction readers in historical figures, it's appropriate to have a separate list highlighting this. Additionally, the "never-ending list" is enormously helpful for new readers who can't remember which particular member of the enormous Gerard clan is now running around in the current book. If the primary argument is that it offends aesthetic sensibilites, can we make it a separate linked page? Quigonejinn 22:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Biographical information from Parkinson

I have deleted a few items from the biography that appear to derive solely from Parkinson's non-canonical biography. Feel free to put them back in if they are supported in writings by Forester. 209.30.186.151 17:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is established that Forester's novels form the canon for Hornblower as far as this page is concerned. I've twice reverted an edit that changed HH's title from "… of Smallbridge..." to "… of Boxley...", quoting Parkinson"s cod "biography". Perhaps the person/s who apparently disagree on this could put their case on the talk page rather than open an edit war. --Mabzilla (talk) 13:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Hornblower Wiki

I invite everyone to join the Hornblower Wiki, at http://www.hornblower.wikia.com. It's brand new (we don't even have a logo yet), and we need your help! Barbarossa359 00:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Films

There was a film version of "Lieutenant Hornblower" on general release in the UK in the mid 1960s. The Sheffield Star newspaper serialised the novel and offered free tickets for a showing at a local cinema. I regret that I didn't take advantage of this offer, so my only knowledge of the film is the distinct memory of a still in the "Star" showing a spectacular recreation of the action of hoisting a cannon up a cliff to where it could be fired on the Spanish ships. I have been unable to find any references to the film. Has anyone any knowledge of it?--Mabzilla 16:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The only Hornblower film (that I'm aware of) is Captain Horatio Hornblower, a 1951 film starring Gregory Peck, which covers The Happy Return through to Flying Colours. Perhaps it was on re-release at that time?41.232.56.22 (talk) 01:24, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, at IMDB there's no listing for a Hornblower film or TV program between Gregory Peck in 1951 and the TV series starring Ioan Gruffudd that began in 1999. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 02:21, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Why delete that paragraph?

Somebody just deleted a whole paragraph, with no explanation. I'm going to revert and ask for an explanation. :-) Panzer V Panther (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Young Hornblower

I deleted the links to amazon.com as basically advertisements. -- Zoe

I'm considering putting them back because people keep putting Hotspur in the place of Atropos. I realize that makes good logical sense, but it's not correct. Panzer V Panther (talk) 23:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Hornblower/Kirk connection

I've often heard that the character of Star Trek's Captain Kirk was envisioned by Roddenberry using Hornblower as the template. Indeed, Roddenberry seems to want all the Enterprise captains to be such, as evidenced by seeing Captain Picard as based upon Hornblower as well. I am having trouble finding citations to this effect. do folk know of any? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

We need to be careful about terms. The only cite for the Picard claim is that he had Hornblower "in mind," which isn't the same as "based on." Since Picard and Kirk are very different, it's a bit odd that both could be based on the same "prototype." Life.temp (talk) 17:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It is odd indeed, but Roddenberry planned to have Captain April (the first name he had for the captain in his series), then Kirk and then Picard all have Hornblower in mind when they were crafting their character. I have an idea why, but its speculative. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Roddenberry's basing "Captain Robert April" (who later became "Captain Christopher Pike" - who was both the model for James T. Kirk, and in storyline his predecessor on the USS ENTERPRISE) and Hornblower is talked about in Stephen E. Whitfield's nonfiction book THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, which I read ages ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.106.201.49 (talk) 07:57, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Jones

The "Later Career" section mentions certain discrepancies. I have excised one:

... the relations he explains at one point with his first lieutenant (and Executive officer) such that he was too forthcoming with the person—yet in the story background, the loyal Lt. Bush is that same second in command almost without exception—as inseparable as siamese twins.

This is incorrect, as the person he refers to is not Bush, but Lt. Jones of Atropos. B00P (talk) 21:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

No, please go back and check Atropos. HH's relations with his XO JJ are much colder than those he has with Bush. The explanation given is that this is a reaction to how much information he offered his first XO. The novels never say who that first XO was, or when he served with HH. I participated in a discussion of this issue on a mailing list some time ago, and we concluded that first XO could have been the officer who served under him when he was given an acting appointment as commander, and command of one of the vessels he captured, at the end of Lieutenant Hornblower. Bush was not his XO in this vessel, because, as you will recall, he was still recovering from his wounds when HH left port. Geo Swan (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Horatio Hornblower Esquire

I've removed the appellation "Esquire"; this would be of significance only in "The Duchess and the Devil" as marking Hornblower's promotion to lieutenant and so his elevation to the Upper Gentry. When, in a later story, he is knighted, he ceases to be addressed as "Esquire".--Mabzilla (talk) 09:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

"Upper Gentry"? A lieutenant? How do you reckon that? Promotion to lieutenant would make him officially a gentleman -- but not "upper" anything. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 02:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I was relying largely on the Wikipedia articles on "esquire" and "lieutenant" in my statement above. Basically, "esquire" was applied to one of the upper gentry; among the qualifications for this was the rank of army captain - the naval equivalent of this being "lieutenant" - or above. Of course, there was a considerable difference between a junior and a senior lieutenant, but this was a matter of seniority of service rather than social position. --Mabzilla (talk) 19:07, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Influence on other fiction

For some reason the comment in the influence section referencing David Webers Honour Harrington novels has been deleted. No explaination has been provided and since the comment is factual, relevent and sourced I've reverted the delete. If you think this is in error, please discuss here before reverting. Thanks, --ThePaintedOne (talk) 11:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Major re-edit

I've had a shot at a major re-edit to this piece. I've just started reading the Hornblower series and although this page is interesting, it had a lot of problems, so without changing much text I have done some editing.

• Moved the rambling opening paragraph into an Inspirations section
• Taken off the references to American titles in the chronological order section (they are already in the section above and just made it seem messy.
• Removed reference to the German translations - it just seemed unnecessary information and is not even included on the German wikipedia page.
• Moved Omnibus information into its own chapter to try and tidy things up.
• Sorted the other fiction references to make it easier to read and removed a couple of more trivial examples.
• Removed two external links which didn't add much.

I need to dig out a few references and obviously I have not made any changes to the career chapters because I want to avoid spoilers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by R-T-C (talk • contribs) 12:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

explanation

I added three {{cn}} to the section on other works HH influenced. One of the existing references seems to have gone stale. http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/73687

I am concerned that HH's influence, which may be one of the kinds of things that seems obvious, actually requires the same kinds of verifiable, authoritative sources as any other material. Geo Swan (talk) 10:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

His family

A section on Hornblower's family would greatly benefit the article. I just finished Hornblower and the Atropos which speaks of his wife and two chidlren. The confusing thing is, that in the next book by chronology (although written much earlier), Hornblower is on the HMS Lydia hitting on a British noblewoman (or so I've read in sumamries - have not actually read the entire book). What happened in the interim? How did he go from married father of two to single and making advances on other women? -OberRanks (talk) 19:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You need to actually read the novels before trying to predict what the chronology of events will be. How (and why) he goes from Maria to Barbara Villiers is all laid out very plainly. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 02:27, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Viliers -> Wrong fictional naval hero (and wrong given name for him). It's Barbara Wellesley. And Hornblower "hit on her" ("hit it off with her" would be more correct) despite being married. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:13, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

That's the whole point - someone who hasn't read the novels might have heard various pieces of the story but might not understand the complete chronology. We shouldn't assume that those who read this article have also read the entire sequence of novels. -OberRanks (talk) 15:10, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Flandry citation

An article that likely best supports the statement is found here, but was rejected due to some kind of blacklist:

ObjectOrientedcities.com/mygeneralcontent/FandSF/PAnderson/LurexAndGold.htm

(Prefix the protocol and replace ObjectOriented with oo.)

--74.162.150.128 (talk) 08:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Based on Nelson or Cochrane

Early on the article says, "The character was inspired by the famous British admiral Horatio Nelson." Later, it says, "Hornblower is generally considered to be based upon the historical Thomas, Lord Cochrane." Clearly this needs a little attention, but I don't know enough about the character or the historical personalities to edit this. --Tom Allen 21:53, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hmm yes, should have noticed that before - Hornblower is actually the opposite of Nelson in almost every aspect of personality and career. Stan 04:18, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! One more thing: In the Lord Nelson article, there is still a statement that reads, "Nelson was the basis for the fictional characters of Horatio Hornblower and Honor Harrington," along with a link to this article. Again, I'll let someone else handle this. Perhaps there are different opinions about this. Could Nelson have still been an inspiration, of sorts, even though the character is very different? Just wondering. Of course, now I'll have to actually read Forester's series! :) --Tom Allen 02:06, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That should probably be tweaked too. Of course, the depth of British feeling for Nelson (died heroically at the very moment of a victory that established British mastery for over one hundred years, what more could one do) is such that any British naval author has a powerful urge to put in bits of Nelson mythos. Sometimes Forester seems like he's working deliberately to make Hornblower a bit of antihero, struggling to avoid Nelsonization, for instance when Hornblower does the right thing then imagines it's for the wrong reasons, and beats himself up about it. A bit anachronistic actually - I don't know of any documented evidence that officers of that period thought about themselves that way. Stan 04:20, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(Many of) Hornblower's deeds are based on those of Nelson and Cochrane. But his character is wholly invented. I changed the article to reflect that. Gdr 10:27, 2004 Aug 5 (UTC)

Indeed, Hornblower has been described as a mid-20thcentuary character in a Napoleonic setting. Many of his private views would have been very unusual indeed for the time. Lord Cochrane, who was one of the inspiriations for Hornblower, was politically "Radical", but I don't think any of his recorded views are as "progressive" as Hornblower's. Still Hornblower's political views are far closer to those of Cochrane than to those of Nelson. For thew matter of that, several of his specific actions (The inshore campaign in Ship of the Line for example) are quite specifically based on Cochrane's actions. Of course, O'Brian's Jack Aubrey is rather more closely and explicitly based on Cochrane, although his politics are rather more conservative than Cochrane's were. DES ^(talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

In The Hornblower Companion Forester is quite specific that Hornblower is not based on anyone. He started as Forester's conception of "The Man-Alone" that was the center of history-altering action, but must rely only on himself and the role of Captain of a sailing vessel simply seemed the most likely. As to the deeds and events, on a cruise around the world Forester brought with him a complete copy of the Naval Chronicle he had acquired and was so enamored with its contents that he included them, sometimes wholly, in his books. If Nelson or Cochrane happened to have a great influence on Captain Hornblower it was thanks to their ability to excite the imagination of his creator more than any deliberate attempt to reproduce their lives in fictional form.

Everything in the above paragraph is true--and well cited. Nonetheless, in The Happy Return, Lieutenant Bush explicitly compares Hornblower with Nelson, during conversation with Lady Barbara. Bush is the character speaking, but one can't avoid hearing the author's voice. But in Lord Hornblower, Hornblower himself is appalled at the thought of comparison with Nelson. I would speculate that in the intervening years, Forester learned more about Nelson's character and career and decided they did not fit Hornblower at all.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.235.62.237 (talk • contribs) 22:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Biography citations

I've added requests for citation to the statement that Hornblower is happy at the end of his career. As far as I can tell from the end of the last full-length novel, it's an enormously arguable point. If there's definitive authority out there for the point, it would be helpful.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.19.137 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Real Person

He was a real person,i have read multiple biographies describing in great detail his feats and accomplishments. Adolph172 17:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure, Bub. Go talk to the Sherlock Holmes fans. B00P (talk) 21:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Now, now - no need to be mean; if Adolph can provide some citation toward this, I'd be very interested. The most convincing would be a webpage showing a scan of a relevant page from a Births Registry or a birth certificate, preferably on a government website. Empath (talk) 12:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Adolph172 if you're talking about C Northcote Parkinson's Life and Times you do realise that's basically a fanfic that made it into print, right?41.232.56.22 (talk) 01:20, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistent accounts of HH's career

The article currently says:

In the first five novels by order of publication, it is implied that Hornblower was born in the early 1780s. However, when Forester decided to write about Hornblower's early career in the sixth novel Mr. Midshipman Hornblower, he made his hero about five years older, giving his birthdate as July 4, 1776 (the date of the adoption of the United States Declaration of Independence).

The omniscient narrator gives an account of HH's career at around page 12 of The Happy Return, which is at odds with an account HH offers, in Commodore Hornblower, in response to a question from the Czar. I don't have my books handy, but my recollection is that the account in tHR was inconsistent with the later books, and would have made him about five years older than in the later books, but that the account in CH was consistent with the remaining books. This conversation took place when the Czar visited Bush's vessel, at around page 100.

Consider also how tongue-tied the HH of tHR was around Lady Barbara, compared with the relaxed one night stand he has with the promiscuous Russian countess in CH. HH had a bit of a personality transplant. Geo Swan (talk) 14:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• I've adjusted this section. THR definitely takes place in 1808. HH is brought news of Wellington's victory over the French that led to their evacuation of Portugal (the battle of Vimeiro, August 1808, and the Convention of Sintra), and of the Spanish victory at Bailen (July 1808). He is aslo said in THR to be 37. This makes his DOB 1770 or 1771. As the events take place during the back end of 1808, 1771 is the likelier birth year. When CSF added earlier stories after writing the later canon, he gave himself problems with dates and events. A Hornblower who was 18 in 1794 would have been born in 1776, rather than 1771. The attack on the Droits de l'Homme and the capture of the Castilla are also both alluded to in THR, but are never described in the stories written later. Tirailleur (talk) 15:54, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course, when CSF wrote THR, it was intended as a one-off; if he could have foreseen his writing a hugely successful series he would presumably have been less cavalier with the chronology. Compare his situation with that of Patrick O'Brian, for instance, who apparently started his Aubrey-Maturin series, at the suggestion of his publisher, to fill the gap left by CSF's death. The capture of the Castilla is described in "Hornblower and the Atropos" as occurring in 1807, with HH as a post-captain. CSF wrote, in "The Hornblower Companion" that this was necessary so that "years later" (actually only the following year) he should have his "fifty-guinea" sword, won for that deed, when he met El Supremo in THR. This blandly overlooks the mention of the sword in "A Ship of the Line", dating the event to 1802, when HH was a half-pay lieutenant "on the beach" following the Peace of Amiens! (I'm sure that CSF would have been greatly amused at the thought of people such as myself solemnly chewing over such "facts"!) An important side to the Hornblower novels is that the hero's battles are all fictional, avoiding the situations which arise in some historical fiction where the (fictional) protagonist is instrumental in the winning of important (real) battles (e.g. Sharpe at Waterloo). HH would have been in the Indefatigable at the time of the (historical) attack on the Droits de l'Homme, so it may be significant that CSF did not choose to describe HH's part in the battle. --Mabzilla (talk) 13:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Ship mergers

I'm about to redirect HMS Justinian, HMS Atropos, HMS Clorinda, HMS Lydia and HMS Crab (fictional Hornblower vessel) here per the Afd decision. I see little to merge since the articles contain either redundant plot summaries or ship details I don't recall being cited in the stories, e.g. launch year, weight, length, etc. (although it has been a while since I last read the books). Objections? Clarityfiend (talk) 11:59, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge from HMS Witch of Endor

I suggest that HMS Witch of Endor be merged here, per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/HMS Justinian -- no need to have each fictional ship documented as an article, they can exist in the list portion Horatio Hornblower#Ships.

184.144.169.126 (talk) 06:45, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Survey

Please express your opinion on the proposal here, with a rationale to support your opinion.

• Support. This is a no-brainer. You could be WP:BOLD and just redirect it. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

• Support. This really should be merged. I don't think anyone would oppose this. 24.224.192.88 (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• • Done. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Split apart

I suggest that this page be split in two

• Horatio Hornblower (character)
• Horatio Hornblower (franchise)

As this is a melding of a notable fictional character, and the universe in which he inhabits. It would be better to detail the fictional universe in a separate article from the character, to document adaptations, etc. And the fictional character article can address portrayals.

184.144.169.126 (talk) 06:42, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Survey

Please express your opinion on the proposal here, with a rationale to support your opinion.

• Oppose. The universe in which Hornblower resides is more or less the real historical one (Lady Barbara excepted), so I don't see the need for it. Also, this article is only 38K. Another HH does have a separate Honorverse, but that's because it's all made up. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the points made by Clarityfiend; anyone wishing to understand the character needs also to understand the historically-based situations which the character interacts with. The article is nowhere near long enough to make any case for dividing it.--Mabzilla (talk) 15:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment If the article is split, I think a disambiguation page is a little unnecessary for two pages. A hatnote is all that's needed, really. Harry Blue5 (talk) 11:32, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"Horatio Hornblower, 1st Viscount Hornblower of Smallbridge, GCB"

The above edit to the intro has made a reappearance. This is objected to for two reasons. Firstly, this is the kind of honorific that would be given to a living or historical person, not a fictional one. The ranks and titles are added in a succession of works of fiction. Secondly, it contains material from C. N. Parkinson's "The Life and Times of Horatio Hornblower". This is a mock biography of HH, which has often persuaded the unwary that he was a historical character. C. S. Forester's novels and short stories form the canon for HH and Parkinson's work is given a paragraph in the article as something apart. Please don't revert without discussing the matter here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mabzilla (talk • contribs) 16:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Bibliography Revamp with Serialisation

I'm proposing a revamp of the Bibliography section including the addition of a second table dealing with the serialisations of the Hornblower novels. The serialisations were actually the first publication of all the works except the first novel so I think they deserve the space.

Currently I've put my proposed replacement content up at User:Jaa101/sandbox.

With the existing bibliography table the change I'm proposing is to have separate columns for the US and UK titles which are so often different. This frees up the comments column for other information. I've also made both the dates of publication and dates of the stories more precise.

One worry I have with both my tables is that I've linked extensively and repeatedly in them. Normally one would link only on the first occurrence but, in this case, the tables are sortable so what's first may change. I think it's acceptable as it is.

Finally, I've added mentions of the first and most important omnibus "Captain Hornblower" and also the "Cadet Editions".

I will change the main page based on feedback.

Jaa101 (talk) 03:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Use of pic from the film?

Hi all,
From this discussion, there would appear to be strong case made for removing the image from the article. Your thoughts about this?
Pete aka --Shirt58 (talk) 13:27, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Middle initial?

I noticed, while rereading Hornblower and the Hotspur, that Sir Edward Pellew referred to him in a letter to him (p. 226 of the paperback) as "HRH". Is there any other reference anywhere to his middle name? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:29, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I've just checked the Little Brown (US) and Michael Joseph (UK) first editions and both say "I have indulged myself in a favourite whose initials are H. H.!" in chapter 11. Of course, "HRH" commonly stands for "His Royal Highness" and perhaps a copy editor made a typo here. What paperback edition are you referring to? I've never seen any indication of a middle initial in the whole canon by Forester. The first paragraph of the very story you're reading would seem fairly conclusive: "I, Horatio, take thee, Maria Ellen".--Jaa101 (talk) 04:27, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Hornblower addendum

In this edit, Jaa101, removed several notations of publication in "Hornblower Addendum (kindle)" with the summary "Removed Kindle edition references. No need to attempt to list every edition. Maybe add a separate Kindle section". However to the best of my knowledge, aside from the original magazine publications, now almost impossible to obtain, most of these stories are published only in the Hornblower Addendum. I am not sure if that has both a kindle and a non-kindle edition, but it seems to em that the Hornblower Addendum itself should be mentioned. Does anyone disagree? DES ^(talk) 01:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

IP vandalism by removing ref

For a while a an anonymous editor using various IP addresses has been removing the same reference from the page with the identical edit summary comment "low quality URL". Despite being requested on Talk pages to explain there has been no explanation. There was a temporary protection of the page but as soon as the protection was removed, the IP editor was back with the same edit. Dabbler (talk) 03:19, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Trivial, minor, or unrelated references to popular culture

In March 2017 the {{in popular culture}} template was added to this page by user:Nikkimaria. Is it still necessary? If it so what need changing? -- PBS (talk) 10:51, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes - citations should be added to the material in the "In other media" and "Influence on other fiction" sections indicating the significance of these references, and those for which no such sources are available should be removed. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:03, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Screen adaptations

Many years ago I saw a (B&W) film about Hornblower based mainly on the book Lord Hornblower. In the film the brig Porta Coeli was renamed Firedrake. Despite searching the various film databases I can't find any reference to this film or who the actors were. Does it ring any bells with anyone? Murgatroyd49 (talk) 16:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

• Suppose this was the Hornblower episode of Alcoa Premiere in 1963. Hornblower was portrayed by David Buck in that one. ...GELongstreet (talk) 17:36, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

It was definitely a feature film (saw it on British TV, probably BBC). I'm not aware of the US series being shown here. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 19:30, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, the only old movie I know is Captain Horatio Hornblower with Gregory Peck but that one is in Technicolor and already included. And I know of no other use of the Firedrake than the said series episode. ...GELongstreet (talk) 20:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm probably mistaken about it being a feature film then, thanks for the information. It would have been 1963 when I saw it. I'll add it to the article. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2017 (UTC)