Talk:Ivan Aivazovsky

Nationality

The definition of the word nationality according to Merriam-Webster [1]

• "a group of people who share the same history, traditions, and language, and who usually live together in a particular country"
• "the fact or status of being a member or citizen of a particular nation"

As you can see, nationality is never limited to citizenship. It is also widely used for ethnicity. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:OPENPARA: Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability., so the guideline clearly distinguishes between nationality and ethnicity. Jaan Pärn (talk) 07:08, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Two issues here: 1) What does the infobox has to do with the opening paragraph? In fact, Template:Infobox artist doesn't not distniguish between ethnicity and citizenship, it simply says "artist's nationality". As you can see above, "nationality" is used for both (unless we're only considering the international law definition of "nationality") and there is no reason why his Armenian origin should not be mentioned (see my rationale below). 2) And how is Aivazovsky's ethnicity not relevant to his notability? He was born in an Armenian family. He was baptized in an Armenian church. He went to an Armenian school. His brother was an Armenian archbishop and he had ties with Armenian circles. He painted numerous paintings on Armenia. He was the first Armenian artist to paint Mount Ararat, which is its national symbol. This fact alone makes his Armenian origin very relevant. Read Chekhov's words about him: he mentions Aivazovsky being Armenian twice in a paragraph. Why would he do that if his Armenianness wasn't relevant? --Երևանցի ^talk 18:08, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I can only repeat that Wikipedia guidelines distinguish nationality and ethnicity. Template:Infobox artist does not have a definition of nationality so other guidelines and policies can be used instead of inclusive encyclopedia definitions that are not designed for specific Wikipedia use. Jaan Pärn (talk) 08:36, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

In Wikipedia, that would be called WP:SYNTHESIS. You don't take two different guidelines and mix them to get your preferable outcome. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Unlike you, I do not have an agenda here. I am just pointing out that in Wikipedia, nationality is kept separate from ethnicity. The fact that it is not defined in the template does not mean you can take any definition to suit your nationalist agenda. Jaan Pärn (talk) 11:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. You should probably read WP:AGF before accusing me of "having an nationalist agenda". My only agenda here is to improve articles related to Armenia and Armenian people and occasionally other articles I have more than basic knowledge of. I'm sorry that pointing out Aivazovsky's Armenian origin seems like an expression of nationalism to you. He was an Armenian and that should be indicated in the infobox. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:50, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I withdraw my objections. As it looks like, the nationality line in artists infobox is, indeed, only for citizenship (Marc Chagall, for example). --Երևանցի ^talk 04:54, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Just forget about ethnicity here, it adds no achievement. OccultZone (talk) 08:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "adds no achievement", but unlike many Russian Armenians, his Armenian ethnicity did play a role in his life. --Երևանցի ^talk 22:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest changing it to "Russian Armenian", as it appears on the page for his most famous work, "The Ninth Wave"Thedragonking444 (talk) 05:33, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Request for Copyediting by GOCE

Hello,

What a wonderful article! It has truly been a pleasure copyediting this, and learning about Aivazovsky. I respected your wishes and left the content largely alone, with exception to the aside about Chekov's coining of the phrase about ineffable beauty. If you want to keep the story, I recommend putting it in the biography where you first mention it. I have a few other recommendations and tips:

1. The biography, while lush and detailed, reads at portions like a list of travel dates and locations. I did not want to delete content, as you asked, but I might consider combining portions of his visits into broader sentences, or choosing what visits formed the most lasting impressions on him as an artist.

2. Wikipedia is no longer linking common words or locations. You were more than thorough, and I preserved links to Armenian pages and artists, while taking out links to places like Niagara Falls. Your readers can use the search box :)

Otherwise, fantastic job! Your attention to references, organization of pictures and inclusion of materials is top-notch.

TheFurorDivinus (talk) 02:01, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

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Need help from Russian-English-fluent editors

In the second to last para in section 1.7 (regarding later life), there were grammar errors and redundant elements that I (mostly) corrected. But there are website references (35 + 36) in Russian detailing the names of some of Aivazovsky’s paintings which I’m unable to translate reliably. I am completely illiterate in Russian, and, although my browser does a rough machine translation, the titles it comes up with don’t seem to correlate with what’s in the Wikipedia article. I have no way of knowing for certain one way or the other which, if any, are correct. Hopefully someone, who has the expertise that I lack, can help. Thanks in advance, Hamamelis (talk) 15:32, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Refs. 35, 36 are mostly in Armenian. In a short Russian summary in 36, the following paintings are mentioned which are related to this paragraph: "Massacre of Armenians in Trebizond in 1895", "Turks load Armenians on a steamboat", "Turks unload Armenians alive in the Sea of Marmara". --Off-shell (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Here, these paintings are mentioned in Russian: "Armenians are loaded on the ships", "Night. Tragedy in the Marmara Sea", "Silent night. Armenians are thrown into the sea from Turkish ships". --Off-shell (talk) 20:18, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Here is a publication in English with the proper painting titles. --Off-shell (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Meeting with Turner

In section "First visit to Europe" there is the following sentence: He then visited Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands and Britain, where he met English painter J. M. W. Turner who, "was so struck by Aivazovsky's picture The Bay of Naples on a Moonlit Night that he dedicated a rhymed eulogy in Italian to Aivazovsky." Whereas this is presumably indeed written in the cited sources, the statement is highly doubtful and was specifically addressed by Anna Poznanskaya of the Tretyakov Gallery in the article published in the book ""Ivan Aivazovsky: 200 years"" (978-5-89580-132-1). Note that this is an academic publication, see the bookstore page for an overview. Her arguments are that (i) Turner hardly spoke Italian and was certainly not capable of writing a poem in Italian; (ii) in terms of timing, Turner and Aivazovsky could not have met in Great Britain; they could have met in Venice or Spain, but such meeting has never been documented, and the poem, when it is cited, refers to Naples, where they could not have met either.I n addition (now from me, not from Poznanskaya) the whole event is highly unlikely: Turner at the time was an accomplished artist, highly innovative, and Aivazovsky was a noname, just fresh after his studies, his style was about a century behind Turner, and there is no way that his work could have impressed Turner. My suggestion would be not to cut the sentence to "He then visited Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands and Britain" leaving this doubtful story of the poem out.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:49, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Removed--Ymblanter (talk) 13:19, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Museum

The Russian wiki makes a distinction between Mount Mithridat in Kerch (to which this article links) and a similarly named hill in Theodosia where the museum was located; instead it mentions that the site in Kerch had a funerary chapel that was likewise destroyed during WWII I haven't made any changes just yet, and was wondering if there is any confirmation that they are indeed different mountains, or rather, one and the same.--179.6.196.234 (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

They are different. The museum is in Feodosia, and this is a different location from Kerch.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I just found the location of the hill and museum, thanks to a 1914 map, and am making the correction now.--179.6.196.234 (talk) 18:55, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

He was also Ukrainian

He was born into the family of an Armenian shopkeeper, whose family moved to the Crimea from Galicia in 1812, where his ancestors came from Western Armenia, which belonged to the Ottoman Empire. The family lived in poverty and at the age of 10 Ivan worked in a city cafe. He played the violin and sang well, but his greatest joy was painting with samovar charcoal on the walls of houses. This "wall painting" was noticed by the architect Yakov Khristianovich Koch, who presented Ivan with the first pencils and paper, and then showed the drawings to the mayor, Treasurer Alexander Ivanovich. Alexander Ivanovich, becoming governor, took the teenager with him to Simferopol, settled in his house, gave to the gymnasium. Crimea is Ukrainian. Galicia is Ukrainian. Don't say that it was only russian, it sucks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.178.124.38 (talk) 10:43, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Crimea is Ukrainian now, but it was not Ukrainian at the time. Galicia is irrelevant. If it sucks, you should not be here. Ymblanter (talk) 16:46, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

There have been several IP attempts to change him as Ukrainian for some weird reason. These kinds of ethno-national disruptions best be reverted and subsequent WP:FORUM by IPs ignored imo, since his birthplace is clearly Russian Empire. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:55, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

There is an increase in such disruption recently, probably due to propaganda articles like this[2]. Mellk (talk) 01:26, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

The Met has updated its listings of Aivazovskyi’s works, labelling him Ukrainian.[3][4][5] Two of them have a note that includes:

Artists who worked in nations that were part of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union are often identified in exhibitions and publications as Russian well into the twenty-first century.

 —Michael Z. 06:54, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Excellent point. In contentious cases like this, it is important to look at how the rest of the world looks at an individual of disputed nationality, not just how the disputants see him/her. If this individual is looked at from just the Russian side only, then of course he cannot be Ukrainian because according to Putin the Ukraine nation and the Ukrainian people do not exist. Jimbbbo (talk) 17:33, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The issue is less black-and-white than that. Western historiography of Ukraine has always been Russian-coloured, and has been increasingly correcting itself over the decades, years, and especially recent months. I direct anyone interested to an excellent overview in RFE/RL.[6]

The paragraph under #Elsewhere, starting with “In Ukraine, he is sometimes considered a Ukrainian painter,” needs to be rewritten and promoted to an appropriate article section. It should briefly explain exactly how his identity has been treated in the context of historiography, and the same can be added to articles about other Ukrainian artists who are being decolonized in the scholarship.

The cited source is good,[7] but doesn’t actually support that sentence (although it does cover his artmaking in Ukraine which is completely absent from this article).  —Michael Z. 17:59, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Now they count him as an Armenian: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/437979 ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smeagol 17 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Aivazovsky was Ukrainian artist

He was born in the family of an Armenian shopkeeper, whose family moved to Crimea from Galicia in 1812, where his ancestors came from Western Armenia, which belonged to the Ottoman Empire. Nothing common with russia 62.183.187.234 (talk) 09:24, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

What does Ukraine have to do with it? 31.135.248.2 (talk) 14:21, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

His family is from Ukraine? Have you somehow missed part about his ancestors and family originating in Galicia? 94.45.33.7 (talk) 16:36, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Full protection

All involved in the reverting actions of the last days are invited to form a WP:CONSENSUS concerning his ethnicity on this talk-page. And yes, I have of course protected the WP:WRONGVERSION. Lectonar (talk) 14:02, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Hovhannes Aivazovski

Dear colleague, I read your observation in detail, please now you study what I suggest you https://tert.nla.am/archive/HAY%20GIRQ/Ardy/2016-2018/ayvazovski_maten_2017.pdf Looking forward to your response. Օֆելյա Հակոբյան (talk) 14:07, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I am unfortunately not able to comb through a huge document in Armenian (that may or may not be biased). If you wish to provide specific points, please post excerpts with translation in English in the talk below. ZivDero (talk) 14:17, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Let's reach a consensus

Here's my 2 cents: 1) Aivazovsky was born to an Armenian family and his Armenian identity was important for him 2) He was also Russian both by ethnicity (along with Armenian), and in Nationality, and spent a lot of his life outside of Armenia.

Thus my proposition would be: "Russian of Armenian origin". Let us not get distracted by politicized nonsense by rebranding all there is Russian to anything else just cause. ZivDero (talk) 14:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

This sounds agreeable. Nocturnal781 (talk) 14:42, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

He was not Russian by ethnicity. ----Երևանցի ^talk 15:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

You must remember that when we say that someone is "American", for example, we mean that they are an American national, or in other words associate themselves with the American society. The same goes for Russians, so even if Aivazovsky was born to an Armenian family (mind that he was born in CRIMEA, and not in Armenia), he is still an integral part of the Russian nation and thus a Russian. His Armenian heritage should be highlighted, but it does not make him an Armenian cultural figure, as he worked, first and foremost, in the Russian cultural space and enriched the Russian culture (not claiming that he didn't do any works of Armenian culture, but his contribution to the Russian art is much greater). ZivDero (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

All I see is one editor who made almost a dozen reverts despite being warned on their talk page. The solution in this case is to block that user for edit warring. Mellk (talk) 18:37, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

His Armenian identity and his Armenian birth name have long been mentioned in the intro since I rewrote and expanded this article years ago. The article itself covers his Armenian background, his Armenian themed work, and how much he's appreciated in Armenia. I don't see the need for mentioning his ethnicity in the first sentence. There's no need to overstate or understate his Armenianness. It's long been properly mentioned. Instead of labels such as "Russian-Armenian", "Armenian-Russian", "Russian of Armenian origin", the article should (and already most does) describe his relationship with the Russian Empire, its elite, his Armenian descent and its importance in his life. ----Երևանցի ^talk 15:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken Wikipedia guidelines state nationality should be mentioned in the first sentence. In this case it should stay as it is. Nocturnal781 (talk) 15:21, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

But he's both, you can leave out his Armenian identity like that. YasinY62 (talk) 09:55, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Russian, Great Russian

In the years of his life, the Ukrainian nation had not yet been heard of, except for the narrow circles of Galician Uniates and an even smaller group of students from Kiev. He was a Russian of Armenian descent who lived in the Russian Empire, in the areas of Novorossiya and Little Russia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 10:48, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2023

His nationitt should be changed to Armenian-Ukrainian 2A02:A46F:9B:1:503A:38F7:E50:AF85 (talk) 21:14, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: See comments above. ARandomName123 (talk) 23:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 March 2024

This sentence in the first paragraph "who is considered one of the greatest masters of marine art" is subjective and smells of Russian propaganda that tries to promote its culture. Considered one of the greatest by who? Jvyrus (talk) 15:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: WP:AGF if you have a suggested change, please state it. RudolfRed (talk) 22:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)