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Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world/Archive 7

< Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world
Latest comment: 5 months ago by M.Bitton in topic The reference does not contain the number 24.000
Archive 1←Archive 5Archive 6Archive 7

Chart of Population should be updated

Latest comment: 2 years ago9 comments8 people in discussion

Of the listed Counties Jewish Population 2020: See updated Chart below

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2020

  Not done I am confused as to what your request is. Is it to implement the table below, because that is already there? P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 15:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Answer:the population table below is an updated list to year 2020 with numbers updated if known; it is different from the table in the beginning of the article which only goes up to 2017 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.32.94 (talk) 21:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sorry, but I can't make sense of what exactly you want changed even with your reply. — Tartan357  (Talk) 10:15, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Table of Jewish population since 1948

In 1948, there were between 758,000 and 881,000 Jews (see table below) living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,600. In some Arab states, such as Libya, which was about 3% Jewish, the Jewish community no longer exists; in other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain.Of the chart showing rements of Jews in Muslin Countries the following updates of their status of Jewish Population 2020: {other counties on chart as of 2020 Jewish Population is not listed]


Jewish Population by country: 1948, 1972 and recent times [2020]
Country or territory 1948 Jewish
population 		1972 Jewish
population 		Recent estimates
Morocco 250,000[1]–265,000[2] 31,000[3] 2,500–2,700 (2006)[4] 2,000 (2014)[5] 2,150 (2020)[6]
Algeria 140,000[1][2] 1,000[3] ≈0 <50 (2014)[5] 50 [2017][5]
Tunisia 50,000[1]–105,000[2] 8,000[3] 900–1,000 (2008)[4] 1,500 (2014)[5]1,050 [2020][7]
Libya 35,000[1]–38,000[2] 50[3] 0 0 (2014)[5]0 [2020]
North Africa Total 475,000–548,000 40,050 3,400–3,700 3,550-3,250
Iraq 135,000[2]–140,000[1] 500[3] 5 (2013)[8] 5-7 (2014)[5]10 (2018).[9]
Egypt 75,000[2]–80,000[1] 500[3] 100 (2006)[10] 40 (2014)[5]100 (2020)[11]
Yemen and Aden 53,000[1]–63,000[2] 500[3] 320 (2008)[12] 90 (2014)[5]-50 (2016)[13]100[?] (2020)[14]
Syria 15,000[1]–30,000[2] 4,000[3] 100 (2006)[10] 17 (2014)[5]0(2019)[15]
Lebanon 5,000[2]–20,000[16] 2,000[3] 20–40 (2006)[17][18] 100 (2012)[19]100 (2018)[20]
Bahrain 550–600[21] 50 (2008)[22] 37 (2008)[23] 30 [2017][24]
Sudan 350[25] ≈0 ≈0
North Africa & Arab Countries Total 758,350–881,350 <45,800 <3,795-4,345 <3,802-3,762-3,500
Afghanistan 5,000 500[3] 2 (2001)[26] 1 (2005)[27]
Bangladesh Unknown 175–3,500 (2009)[28] 75-100 (2012)[29]4 [2018][30]
Iran 65,232 (1956)[31] 62,258 (1976)[31][32] - 80,000[3] 9,252 (2006)[33] 8,756 (2014)[34]8,500 (2020)[35]
Pakistan 2,000–2,500[36] 250[3] 200 (2009)[28] >900 (2017)[37]
Turkey 80,000[38] 30,000[3] 17,800 (2006)[10] 17,300 (2015)[39]15,000 (2020)[40]
Non-Arab Muslim Countries Total 202,000–282,500 110,750 32,100 26,157-24,405

Update to above table: 2020
Jews In Iraq total 4
Jews in Yemen total 38 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.138.11 (talk) 14:35, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2021 Jews in Yemen Total 6 Jews In Iraq total 3 The last Jew in Afghanastan is going to leave [41]

Jewish Virtual Library 2019-2020 Lists of Jews Updated Lebanon 29
Syria 0
Iran 8,500
Iraq 3
Oman 0
Yeman 7
Algeria 200
egypt 9
Libya 0
Morroco 2,100
Tunisa 1,000
Afghanstan 1

  Doing... Not sure why we need two columns for recent estimates though. - Daveout(talk) 06:30, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Note to above Afghanstan is now judenfrei as of 7 September 2021— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.156.162 (talk)

Note Update 3/19/2022 Algeria is Judenfrei https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/about/communities/DZ?msclkid=978197d4a73811ecb6ee0c7635384142 World Jewish Congress website "Jews lived in Algeria from the pre-Roman period to the early 1960s. There is no Jewish community left in Algeria today."(Accessed 18 March 2022) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.188.123 (talk) 13:05, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

That's WP:OR, since Judenfrei has a very specific definition that editors cannot use however and wherever they wish. M.Bitton (talk) 14:16, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Note reported 2018 Last Jew in Eritrea reported he was shot and killed by an unknown person[42] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.188.123 (talk) 14:32, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why we need to include a "Better Source Needed" next to the virtual library citations in the table? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.122.64.210 (talk) 14:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b c d e f g h Stearns, 2001, p. 966.
  2. ^ a b c d e f g h i Avneri, Aryeh L. (1984). The claim of dispossession: Jewish land-settlement and the Arabs, 1878–1948. Yad Tabenkin Institute. p. 276. ISBN 0-87855-964-7.
  3. ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m Shapiro, Leon (1973). "World Jewish Population, 1972 Estimates". American Jewish Year Book. 73: 522–529.
  4. ^ a b Sergio DellaPergola, World Jewish population, 2012, p. 62
  5. ^ a b c d e f g h i "Jewish Refugees from Arab Countries". www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org.
  6. ^ Jewish Population source Website: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/jewish-population-by-country/
  7. ^ Ref: Jewish Population source Website: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/jewish-population-by-country/
  8. ^ Shamash, Cynthia Kaplan (7 November 2013). "Opinion - Keep the Iraqi Jews' Legacy Safe — in America" – via www.nytimes.com.
  9. ^ Jewish virtual library Jews of Iraq accessed may 11,2019
  10. ^ a b c "Jewish Virtual Library". Retrieved 13 November 2014.
  11. ^ Ref: Jewish Population source Website: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/jewish-population-by-country/
  12. ^ Yoav Stern (18 December 2008). "Jews of Yemen reportedly to be relocated in wake of deadly attack". Haaretz. Retrieved 13 November 2014.
  13. ^ Yemenite Jews{Note: on 1 November 2009, The Wall Street Journal reports in June 2009 an estimated 350 Jews were left—of whom by October 2009–60 had immigrated to the United States and 100 were considering to leave. On 21 March 2016, a group of 19 Yemenite Jews were flown to Israel in a secret operation, leaving the population at about 50.[1]}
  14. ^ In regard to last 50 Jews of Yemen a query in search engine last 50 Jews of Yemen:On April 28,2020 Yemenite Minister Moammer al-Iryani remarked the fate of the last 50 Jews in Yemen is unknown. See "Yemen minister says fate of country's last 50 Jews unknown". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 23 June 2020.. See 72.49.185.110 (talk) 12:55, 24 June 2020 (UTC) The Jewish Population by Country 2020 has NO listing of ANY Jews in Yemen. On July 13, 2020 it is reported that the Houti Milita is arresting the last 100 Jews of Yemen see Baltimore Jewish News July 13,2020
  15. ^ Ahren, Raphael. "Community is gone, but Putin claims to help Syrian Jews restore their holy sites". www.timesofisrael.com. Retrieved 2020-02-20.
  16. ^ "Jews of Lebanon".
  17. ^ Cite error: The named reference jewcy.com was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  18. ^ Cite error: The named reference ynetnews.com was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  19. ^ "Jews of Lebanon". www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org.
  20. ^ Jewish of Lebanon Jewish Virtual Library accessed June 20,2019
  21. ^ "The Virtual Jewish History Tour - Bahrain".
  22. ^ "Bahrain Names Jewish Ambassador". BBC News. 29 May 2008. Retrieved 29 May 2008.
  23. ^ Ratzlav-Katz, Nissan (14 August 2008). "The King of Bahrain Wants the Jews Back". Israel National News. Archived from the original on 3 October 2012. Retrieved 2 October 2012
  24. ^ Jewish Virtual Library accessed June 20,2019
  25. ^ Cite error: The named reference cohen was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  26. ^ Cite error: The named reference :0 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  27. ^ "'Only one Jew' now in Afghanistan". BBC News. London. 26 January 2005. Retrieved 5 January 2010.
  28. ^ a b "All about Jews in Bangladesh". American Chronicle. September 18, 2009. Archived from the original on 3 June 2012.
  29. ^ http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/jewish-community-virtually-nonexistent-in-bangladesh/2012/06/12 Jewish community virtually nonexistent in Bangladesh in Baltimore Post Examiner
  30. ^ But despite this history, today, the Jewish population of Bangladesh is virtually non-existent. According to local sources, there are only 4 Jews living in Dhaka and they keep their identity private.What happened to the Jews of Bangladesh? - Foreign Policy ...foreignpolicyblogs.com/2018/04/30/what-happened-to-th]
  31. ^ a b Hourcade, Bernard; Balland, Daniel (15 December 1994). Demography i. In Persia since 1319 Š./1940. New York: Columbia University. {{cite encyclopedia}}: |work= ignored (help)
  32. ^ "6. Followers of Selected Religions in the 1976 & 1986 Censuses". Tehran: Statistical Centre of Iran. 1986. Archived from the original on 29 October 2013.
  33. ^ "11. Population by Sex and Religion: 1385 Census". Tehran: Statistical Centre of Iran. 2006. Archived from the original on 9 August 2011.
  34. ^ "Jewish woman brutally murdered in Iran over property dispute". The Times of Israel. 28 November 2012. Retrieved 16 August 2014. A government census published earlier this year indicated there were a mere 8,756 Jews left in Iran
  35. ^ Ref: Jewish Population source Website: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/jewish-population-by-country/
  36. ^ Imageusa.com
  37. ^ A. Khan, Iftikhar (8 Jan 2017). "Minorities' vote bank reaches close to 3m". Dawn newspaper. Retrieved 8 January 2017.
  38. ^ "World Jewish Population" (PDF).
  39. ^ "Young Turkish Jews trickling away from shrinking community".
  40. ^ Ref: Jewish Population source Website: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/jewish-population-by-country/
  41. ^ Israel National News 5 April 2021
  42. ^ last_eritrean_jew_shot_in_street posted 2018 accessed 19 March 2022

Jewish Population decline from 1948

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Jewish Population by country: 1948, 1972 and recent times
Country or territory 1948 Jewish
population 		1972 Jewish
population 		Recent estimates
Morocco 250,000[1]–265,000[2] 31,000[3] 2,100 (2019)[4]
Algeria 140,000[1][2] 1,000[3] 200 [?] (2020)[5]
Tunisia 50,000[1]–105,000[2] 8,000[3] 1,000 (2019)[4]
Libya 35,000[1]–38,000[2] 50[3] 0 (2014)[6]
North Africa Total 475,000–548,000 40,050 <3,330
Iraq 135,000[2]–140,000[1] 500[3] 3 (2021)[6]
Egypt 75,000[2]–80,000[1] 500[3] 3 (2021)
Yemen and Aden 53,000[1]–63,000[2] 500[3] 6-7 (2021)[7]
Syria 15,000[1]–30,000[2] 4,000[3] 0 (2021)[6]
Lebanon 5,000[2]–20,000[8] 2,000[3] 29 (2021)[8]
Bahrain 550–600[9] 36 (2007)[10]
Sudan 350[11] ≈0
Middle East Total 283,900–333,950 7,500 78
Afghanistan 5,000 500[3] 0 (2021)[12]
Bangladesh Unknown 4 (2018)[13]
Iran 65,232 (1956)[14] 62,258 (1976)[14][15] - 80,000[3] 8,500 (2021)[16]
Pakistan 2,000–2,500[17] 250[3] 201 [18]
Jewish Population by country: 1948, 1972 and recent times
Turkey 80,000[19] 30,000[3] 14,800 (2019)[20]
Non-Arab Muslim Countries Total 152,232–152,732 93,008–110,750 23,499
Total (All) 26,613

References

  1. ^ a b c d e f g h Stearns, Peter N. (ed.). Encyclopedia of World History (6th ed.). The Houghton Mifflin Company/Bartleby.com. Citation, p. 966.
  2. ^ a b c d e f g h i Avneri, Aryeh L. (1984). The claim of dispossession: Jewish land-settlement and the Arabs, 1878–1948. Yad Tabenkin Institute. p. 276. ISBN 0-87855-964-7.
  3. ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m Shapiro, Leon (1973). "World Jewish Population, 1972 Estimates". American Jewish Year Book. 73: 522–529.
  4. ^ a b "Jewish Population of the World". www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org. Retrieved 2021-07-02.
  5. ^ "Jews of Algeria". Jewish Virtual Library.
  6. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference Jewish Virtual Library was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  7. ^ Yemenite Jews {Note: on 1 November 2009, The Wall Street Journal reports in June 2009 an estimated 350 Jews were left—of whom by October 2009–60 had immigrated to the United States and 100 were considering to leave. On 21 March 2016, a group of 19 Yemenite Jews were flown to Israel in a secret operation, leaving the population at about 50.[1]}
  8. ^ a b "Jews of Lebanon".
  9. ^ "The Virtual Jewish History Tour - Bahrain".
  10. ^ "A Book on the History of Bahraini Jews Debuts in the Gulf State". Israel National News. Retrieved 2021-07-02.
  11. ^ Cite error: The named reference cohen was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  12. ^ Cite error: The named reference The Jerusalem Post was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  13. ^ http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/jewish-community-virtually-nonexistent-in-bangladesh/2012/06/12 Jewish community virtually nonexistent in Bangladesh in Baltimore Post Examiner
  14. ^ a b Hourcade, Bernard; Balland, Daniel (15 December 1994). "Demography i. In Persia since 1319 Š./1940.". Encyclopædia Iranica. New York: Columbia University.
  15. ^ "6. Followers of Selected Religions in the 1976 & 1986 Censuses". Tehran: Statistical Centre of Iran. 1986. Archived from the original on 29 October 2013.
  16. ^ "Jewish Population of the World". www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org. Retrieved 2021-07-02.
  17. ^ Imageusa.com
  18. ^ History of the Jews of Pakistan (Jewish Virtual Library)
  19. ^ "World Jewish Population" (PDF).
  20. ^ "Jewish Population of the World". www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org. Retrieved 2021-07-02.

Note In 2022 the number of Jews in Lebanon was reported to be 27Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.181.242 (talk) 22:32, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Introduction: in-text sources.

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Re: edits such as this one.

In the first sentence of the Introduction where the figure of 850,000 is given, two in-text sources are cited. The first is from an Israeli government website, which is not reliable to verify anything other than what the Israeli government says. The second is a New York Times article which, rather than presententing the figure as a fact in the NYT's own voice, presents it as a claim made by Justice for Jews from Arab Countries.

Therefore, neither in-text source is reliable for verifying that the figure, as presented, is a fact in Wikipedia terms. To resolve that problem, I added the "according to ..." text at the point Introduction where the citations appear. Two other editors have moved the text. Either my my addition should be left where it is, or another solution to the problem that neither of the sources provided are reliable for the purpose they are being used should be found.

Note that there is a separate problem: the 850,000 figure is contradicted lower in the article.

    ←   ZScarpia   23:38, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

There seem to be various figures being bandied around the page, often without scholarly support, which is really what all such figures should have at this stage for this very well covered topic. Gov sources and news reports deferring to non-academic research are the last thing that should be used (not least in the lead). References this flawed should be binned. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:22, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Numbers don't add up

Latest comment: 1 year ago9 comments4 people in discussion

The introduction says:

"Two hundred and sixty thousand Jews from Arab countries immigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1951, accounting for 56% of the total immigration to the newly founded state.[5] The Israeli government's policy to accommodate 600,000 immigrants over four years, doubling the existing Jewish population,[6] encountered..."

Per simple WP:CALC, the percentage of 260,000 out of 600,000 is around 43%, not 56%. Either the source says 56% of the immigrants came from non-Arab countries (probably Europe) but someone wrote the opposite in this article, or the source itself is incorrect. Someone please fix it. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.28.184.235 (talk) 06:26, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

There's no reason why it should add up. The 600,000 figure is just a forward-looking policy or target, not an actual figure or estimate produced after the fact. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
One is a policy number, the other an actual number. Also the time periods are slightly different (3 vs 4 years). Onceinawhile (talk) 06:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
However, that this number appears in the lead (twice) despite being located nowhere in the body does make it a MOS:LEAD problem. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
260,000 immigrants out of 700,000 for the 1948-51 period is only 37%, not 56%. There is a clear mistake here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.28.184.235 (talk) 06:53, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Where does it say 700,000? Onceinawhile (talk) 07:00, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
In many articles, including Israel, Aliyah, etc. 700,000 Jews moved to Israel between 1948 and 1951, including 260,000 from Arab countries. Maybe you should take out that 56%, which is clearly wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.28.184.235 (talk) 07:02, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. Have done. I don’t have access to the underlying source to understand where the 56% came from.
I now see it was added in this edit in 2011; it had a wider scope then including Turkey and Iran. Over time it must have been misunderstood in the editing process.
Thank you for spotting this and for persevering, Onceinawhile (talk) 08:02, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. Glad to help. Even if the source said such a thing (hypothetically), it doesn't mean we have to include information that can easily be proven wrong by many other reliable sources and basic WP:CALC. When it comes to politics and history things are more complicated, but not when it comes to math. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.28.186.184 (talk) 09:48, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Minor word choice improvement

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In the subsection "Criticism of Jewish Naqba narrative in Israel", it would be better if it read 'Yehoshua Porath *had* rejected the comparison' instead of 'has', as sadly he died in 2019. 61.1.51.163 (talk) 21:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Jews in Lebanon

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In 2020 the total number of Jews in Lebanon was 29.[1][2] -Attallah (talk) 07:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Zeidan, Nagi G. (Jan 28, 2021). Juifs du Liban: D'Abraham à nos jours, histoire d'une communauté disparue. VA PRESS. ISBN 978-2360931019.
  2. ^ "Jews of Lebanon". Jewish Virtual Library. Retrieved 2023-08-04.

Lead sentence bolding

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments3 people in discussion

The redundancy in the lead sentence is unjustified. Of course the Jewish exodus is the exodus of Jews. Furthermore, bolding the "Jewish exodus from the Muslim world" suggests that this is the proper name of the event. It is not. It exists in only two books. Wikipedia uses it as a description, and descriptive titles should not be bolded.

I am not exactly sure what the problem is with the edit I made, but I think it can be addressed without restoring the redundant (and misleading) boldface. Surtsicna (talk) 19:12, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

With respect, I think your campaign to eliminate boldface from article leads (which are almost uniformly common in my navigating experience on wiki) is excessive, and think your attention could be focused elsewhere (such as article revision).
But the core issue here is not the bolding, but your attempt to re-edit the intro of the article in a fashion that potentially both skews and inappropriately oversimplifies a complex and multi-faceted event (which the article’s current intro and body handles with dexterity). The lede already makes clear there was both forced and unforced migration. If you wish to emphasize certain “voluntary” aspects, I recommend building those sections out within the article, and give appropriate context.
Mistamystery (talk) 23:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
The lead sentence is the most important part of any article. Attention should be paid to it being well-worded. The Manual of Style devotes much attention to explaining that boldface should not be universally applied to lead sentences. I am quite certain we can come to a wording that addresses the concerns of both of us. It is not my wish to emphasize any aspects but to avoid circular definitions.
Around 900,000 Jews migrated, departed, fled, or were expelled from Arab countries and Iran.
In this example nothing of substance is changed; the meaning stays exactly the same. I should note that the "Muslim world" does not equal "Arab countries and Iran" as the lead currently suggests, and since the article mentions Muslim-majority countries that are neither Arab nor Iran, perhaps the lead sentence should reflect that. That is another issue, however. Surtsicna (talk) 06:26, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
That is a very pertinent observation. I have clarified the range of different regions in which the Muslim-majority countries involved fall. The first sentence also lacked a "when", now added. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. I still believe that the lead sentence should not contain repetition. How do you feel about: Around 900,000 Jews migrated, departed, fled, or were expelled from Muslim-majority countries in West Asia, North Africa and, to a lesser extent, Central Asia, South Asia and Southeast Asia in the 20th century? Surtsicna (talk) 11:04, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Transjordan, West Bank, & Gaza

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Section is woefully underdeveloped. (Will also be adding Gaza to this section as it is inappropriate to include in the Egyptian section due to Gaza’s post-war inclusion into Egypt)

Will be drafting necessary additions to cover the depopulation of Jews from those areas in response to 1948. Please let me know any thoughts, notes, etc.

Thanks. Mistamystery (talk) 17:52, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mistamystery: it is completely obvious that the Goodman Camping Initiative is not a reliable source for history. It cannot stay. NPR is a reliable source for news but a single sentence in passing about a historical event, buried in an article on something else, is not adequate. All of these things (after my cleanup) can be sourced with proper sources, so instead of reverting poor sources back in you should go looking for good sources. Zerotalk 00:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Small correction on word

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

"[…] there were those within the Jewish Agency and government who opposed promoting a large-scale emigration movement […]" I believe the correct word is immigration. Nmsalgueiro (talk) 10:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

It's means an emigration movement from the Greater Middle East countries. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:47, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Intro Typo

Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

"and push factors, such as antisemitism, persecution, and pograms, political instability, poverty, and expulsion."

Minor typo but I believe 'pograms' was meant to be 'pogroms' here. Economycaregiver (talk) 06:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  Done Andre🚐 06:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I think this article needs much more work and depicts Arabs as the villains.

Latest comment: 10 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

All this is messy. I checked the French version and it doesn't look better. One thing that Zionists on here won't be very motivated to address but which contributes to the confusion about Israel (people) is the fanct that anti-semitism towards an Arab Jew had nothing to do with that towards an Ashkenazi. Anti-semitism is used like a filling-word. Gentiles have to deal with that and it is not our job. Arab Jews were at the bottom of the pyramid and were not looked very differently by most Ashkenazi at their arrival in Israel or befor that, when Ashkenazi went to look for them, to use them to fill Israel (before WWII). They hadn't seen them in 2000 years, were not so nice to them, but this is again something taboo. Also you make it sound like the establishment of Israel is one among many other reasons for the exodus. I think that nationalism in Arab countries had indeed started beforehand (not sure what country), but Israel had the effect of a bomb in the ME. The Arab ligue had said NO, but we don't listen to losers. I am not against Israel, but I understand why it couldn't work and one zionist had foreseen that, but guess what? Last time I checked I couldn't find him anymore 3 weeks age. I spent half an hour. I know now that I need to go into the history of every damn article. SHAME Jews in Egypt were doing very well. I know this first hand and for probably 5 generations. They didn't seem to suffer from antisemitism, they employed a hundred Arabs, learned Italian with their nannies, and I never heard a compaint from the person in question (deceased now) who indeed had to leave under Nasser and give their big big factory for free. So, please stop turning everything in the negative. The expulsion was totally predictable. I mean in general

Also, the Arab world saved the skin of Ashkenazi and Sefardi for centuries. Arabs have disappeared from Wikipedia except when then they suck (although they don't even suck for real). Israel is vilifying a religion for its own sake which is dangerous and entitled tp a level I can't understand. The historical Mass murderers between Islam and Christianity are Christians, Zionists are putting mankind at threat just for their sake. And it won't work. Thank you Leaving Neveland (talk) 20:58, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Timeline of antisemitism has an RfC

Latest comment: 9 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
 

Timeline of antisemitism has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. patsw (talk) 23:31, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

May 2024

Latest comment: 5 months ago7 comments2 people in discussion


  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

This is a page about the jewish exodus from the muslim world. The background section should give some description of the condition of the jews before the exodous, and an explanation on why an exodus was necessary. The background just describes that the jewish condition in the muslim world was quite prosperous. This is not appropriate because it does nothing to explain the necessity of an exodus.

It should mention that jews historically did not have the same rights as muslims in the muslim world. And it should also mention arab and muslim pogroms against the jews, which is the main motivation for leaving the muslim world.

  • Why it should be changed: It is the most natural question a reader will ask, why the exodus happened.
  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Penrose sachdev (talk) 20:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

References

  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 21:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)


  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

Please just add the single sentence to the background section:

"Jewish people suffered many pogroms and persecutions in the arab world."

  • Why it should be changed:

In a page about the exodus of jews from the arab world, there is clearly a reason for this exodus.

  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Penrose sachdev (talk) 21:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

References

  Not done: the edit would need consensus first (something you cannot establish nor participate in any discussion about it). The article covers multiple groups and their different reasons for the migration. M.Bitton (talk) 22:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
so what am i allowed to say? and what's the point of edit request if you won't let me change anything Penrose sachdev (talk) 08:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

"Relations between jews and arabs have sometimes been difficult."

  • Why it should be changed:

Should give mroe context on jewish exodus.

  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Penrose sachdev (talk) 19:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

References

  Not done: please refrain from gaming the system by abusing the edit requests in order to push a POV (as evidenced by your previous edit requests). M.Bitton (talk) 21:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 26 February 2024

Latest comment: 8 months ago15 comments13 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Withdrawn by nominator; clear consensus against. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 17:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world → Jewish expulsion and flight from the Muslim world – "Expulsion and flight" is a neutral description of what occurred, while the current title is a euphemism. It would also be WP:CONSISTENT with 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and the RM that moved it to that title from "1948 Palestinian exodus" - the reasons for that move apply equally to this. BilledMammal (talk) 04:33, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Note: WikiProject International relations has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Comment WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument, the circumstances are distinct and consistency is therefore not required. For a start, the opening for this article says "migrated, fled, or were expelled" whereas the other says "fled from their homes or were expelled" and the other was in 1948 whereas the events here took place over a long period of time. Therefore, if there should be a new title, it should include the word migration and a date range needs to be established. What needs to be determined by reference to reliable sources is the relevant %'s , migrated, fled, expelled and when did these occur rather than an obvious POV push to match the other title with spurious argumentation. Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose the title should be as neutral as possible and inline with how the RS describe the events (such as the "Jewish migration from the Arab world" and the "emigration of the Jews from the Arab World"). While those sourced common names are about the Arab world, I see no reason why they shouldn't apply to the "Muslim world". The various reasons for the migration should be discussed in each relevant section. M.Bitton (talk) 13:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - I do not think "expulsion and flight" is an NPOV way to describe the event. Yes, Morris 2008 says "emigrated, were intimidated into flight, or were expelled." But Pappe 2004 and 2022 AFAICS just calls that "immigration" without the "intimidated" or "expelled" part. And I just checked Mark Tessler's 2009 book, pp. 309-311:

While the arrival of these Jews from the Arab world played a critical role in shaping the character and evolution of Israeli society after 1948, the argument that their dislocation was comparable to that of the Palestinians is controversial and problematic. Israeli propagandists stressed the difficulties that confronted Jews in Arab lands and suggested that they had been forced to leave their homes. ... In fact, however, such statements give a distorted impression of the complex and varied situation of the Jews in Arab countries and of the diverse reasons that led most to leave.

Scholarly Israeli and Jewish sources, as well as others, offer a more realistic appraisal. ... Further, though Jewish insecurity was both real and justified in some Arab countries, it was far less significant in others, and, in any event, it was only one of the reasons that Jews chose to leave the Arab world at this time. Immigration to Israel was sometimes the result of a desire to participate in the building of the Jewish state. This motivation was most intense in the more traditional and religious Jewish communities, often located in rural areas. In these cases, and undoubtedly some others, it was the attraction of Israel, rather than a desire to flee persecution, that led Jews to leave the Arab countries in which they lived.

Socioeconomic factors may have been an even more important consideration ... Moreover, not only did an uncertain economic future lead some Jews to think about leaving, but the economic advantages and favoritism Jews had enjoyed in the past created resentment among the majority, a consideration that may also have encouraged Jewish emigration but which had nothing to do with the Arab-Jewish conflict in Palestine.

In some instances, cultural factors provided yet another stimulus to Jewish emigration ... In fact, many of these Jews emigrated to Europe rather than to Israel.

Finally, post-1948 Zionist efforts to promote Jewish emigration appear to have been an important factor in at least a few instances ... In any event, when Zionist involvement is added to the socioeconomic, cultural, and other factors that helped to stimulate Jewish departures, it becomes clear that it is highly oversimplified, and in many ways misleading, to equate the flight of Palestine's Arabs with the immigration to Israel of Jews from Arab countries.

The take away is that we should not equate the Nakba with Jewish emigration from Arab countries post-1948. Levivich (talk) 17:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose the false equivalence behind this proposal. As in Levivich's quotation, it is simply not true that the two mass population movements were similar. Zerotalk 00:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Levivich and Zero. Very obvious attempt at a moral equivalence, and one that the sources do not support. I would support Jewish migration from the Muslim world. The claim of consistency with a completely different topic is one that fails even the most cursory glances. This was not a population largely chased out by militias/armed forces. There is no consistency required between completely different topics. Even the order of words here betrays the POV of the proposal, there are very few instances of expulsions of Jews from any of the Muslim/Arab states. And the claim that the reasons for that move apply equally to this is so obviously specious that not even an attempt at justifying the claim is made. In fact, the quote from the Tessler brought by Levivich attributes such an argument to "Israeli propagandists". nableezy - 00:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Flight" carries an inappropriate connotation, considering that not all Jews who left Muslim lands "fled" them. The current title is appropriate. Zanahary (talk) 19:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is a false equivalent as Zero suggests. Hogo-2020 (talk) 06:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'm not sure this move makes much more sense than calling large-scale Jewish migration from the Russian Empire (in response to, among other things, pogroms and discrimination) circa 1900 "flight and expulsion of Jews from Russia". (t · c) buidhe 09:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Why would article titles on two seperate concepts need to be consistent? What an utterly ridiculous and intellectually dishonest argument. This is so obviously a WP:POINTY proposal designed to advance a certain POV. AusLondonder (talk) 16:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose as factually incorrect. Per Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world/Archive 3#Expulsions?, I have been looking to verify the use of the term "expulsions" for the departure of Jews across all the Arab and Muslim countries for a decade without success. Across the entire Arab and Muslim world, only the 1956–1957 exodus and expulsions from Egypt (post-Suez Crisis purge of the Mutamassirun) appears to have included a small number of expulsions of Jews (alongside a large number of Europeans), at least some of whom would not have been Egyptian citizens. There is no evidence of expulsions from any other Arab or Muslim country, despite some propagandistic claims to the contrary. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2024 Jewish Population In Arab countries

Latest comment: 6 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Ref:https://www.jewishrefugees.org.uk/tag/jews-of-lebanon

  • algeria 0
  • egypt 6 (3 Known alive)
  • Iran 8000
  • Iraq 3
  • Lebanon 20
  • Libya 0
  • Morocco 1000
  • Syria 3
  • Tunisa 1000
  • Yemen 1

Note the Jewish Population in Turkey is about 14,500 72.49.135.188 (talk) 12:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

That's an unreliable source (it's a blog). M.Bitton (talk) 12:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Last paragraph in opening text

Latest comment: 6 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I don't understand why this line is being removed

"sometimes positing a "malicious Zionist conspiracy" to explain the exodus."[1]

It was apparently removed for being POV but the main reference supporting it as an actual scholar and professor Philip Mendes, who has spent many years researching the Jewish expulsion from the MENA region. The main reference also has another 10 or so sources supporting it.

Lotsofsalt (talk) 10 April 2024 (UTC)

1) You have been blocked for edit warring over this. 2) It has been reverted by 3 different editors: Onceinawhile (that you personally attacked in one of your edit summaries), Selfstudier and myself. 3) You violated 1RR again. M.Bitton (talk) 11:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Mendes, Philip (2002). The Forgotten Refugees: the causes of the post-1948 Jewish Exodus from Arab Countries. 14th Jewish Studies Conference Melbourne March 2002.
    –"The Forgotten Refugees". Archived from the original on 13 January 2013. Retrieved 12 June 2007 – via MEFacts.com.
    –"The Forgotten Refugees" – via Palestine Remembered.

The reference does not contain the number 24.000

Latest comment: 5 months ago6 comments3 people in discussion


  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):
−
In 1948, there were approximately 24000 Jews in Lebanon.[191]
+
The 1932 national census put the country’s Jewish population at around 3,500. In 1948, there were approximately 5,200 - 20,000 Jews in Lebanon.



  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Bowad91017 (talk) 02:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

for the 1932 census numbers, it's in the Al Jazeera article here: Uncovering Lebanon’s Jewish past | Arts and Culture | Al Jazeera Bowad91017 (talk) 01:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
@M.Bitton Hi, since you replied to the other edit-request in this article. Could you please remove the 24k in the section for lebanon?
Here is the reference used in the current version of the article: Beirut’s last Jews (ynetnews.com) It doesn't contain 24 at all. Bowad91017 (talk) 22:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Having reviewed the sources, I can confirm that the current source doesn't support the 24k figure. As for the proposed change, I'm not convinced that the 20k figure should be mentioned since the source is not strong, the jump from 3.5k to 20k in 16 years (without explanation) seems implausible and the claim is contradicted by two recent RS (Kirsten E. Schulze and Al-Jazeera). What is probably worth mentioning is the fact that the population increased in the 1950s due to the wave of immigration from Syria. Here's what I suggest:

The 1932 national census put the country’s Jewish population at around 3,500.[2] In 1948, there were approximately 5,200 Jews in Lebanon.[3] Their number increased after the first Arab-Israeli war to roughly 9,000 in 1951, including an estimated 2,000 Jewish asylum seekers.[3]

I'll leave it here for you and others to review. M.Bitton (talk) 13:29, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Rainey, Venetia (2014-10-07). "Uncovering Lebanon's Jewish Past". Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera Media Network. Retrieved 2024-05-16.
  2. ^ Rainey, Venetia (7 Oct 2014). "Uncovering Lebanon's Jewish past". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 30 May 2024.
  3. ^ a b Kirsten Schulze (2008). The Jews of Lebanon Between Coexistence & Conflict: 2nd Edition. Liverpool University Press. p. 6. ISBN 978-1-78284-783-0.
  Not done: Per M. Bitton. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 03:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
  Done I implemented the above proposal. Feel free to revert, but please, do ping me if you do. M.Bitton (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
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