Talk:Joe West (umpire)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Joe West (umpire)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TBrandley (talk · contribs) 15:13, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• Lede doesn't meet WP:LEDE, which needs have a little mention of each section of the actual article's section, please summarize all sections; for example, absolutely no mention of "Major League Baseball" despite the top note --Note: I have done work on the lead and I believe it currently gives an adequate summary of the article's contents. Go Phightins! 18:48, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
• WP:DASH concerns in the infobox with "22 - Joe West". Since it is in a template, I would suggest editing the template to meet the guideline  Done
• "the president of the" remove first "the" for a better prose  Done
• "World Umpires Association" place the shorter name in brackets (), as per WP:ACRO  Done
• "but he was" remove "he" as it is repetitive with the rest of the sentence  Done
• "Cowboy Joe" should not be in bold per MOS:BOLD and WP:ACCESS  Done
• "singer/songwriter" WP:SLASH and MOS:HYPHEN suggest using a hypten instead of a slash  Done
• "He grew up in Greenville" no link, no clarifiation or state it is in, needs to be fixed  Done
• Linking problems, why is "Major League Baseball" not linked at start of umpiring career, but then it is later in section. Lots of further inconsistency that needs fixing, please check the whole article  Done
• Also, after first mention, refer to names by shorter version (eg: MLB), not full name version  Done
• Unlink "2012" per WP:OVERLINK  Done
• Avoid short one-line and sentence paragraphs  Done
• "in the 1988 comedy" clarify please, that it is a film or television show, something like that  Done
• Add "United States portal"  Done
• As the portals go into references, move down below external links, and therefore use {{portal bar}}  Done
• Numerous reference problems; WP:DASH concerns; missing parameters like accessdate on lots, as well as authors if they are included in source, please check for all parameters, including dates; link "MLB.com" in reference per WP:REPEATLINK, and check for consistency; check for consistency with publisher and works name; a big concern, IMDb is not a reliable source, and therefore needs to be replaced; inconsistency with date formats throughout the article; check for dead links, there are some at Checklinks, see article; I have some scripts you may use to help with some of these, though not all  Done
• Remove "MajorLeagueUmpires.com" link per WP:ELNO (Please note that the inclusion of these two links is SOP for umpire pages) AutomaticStrikeout (Evidence) 23:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC) - but  Done
• Same goes for the "Retrosheet" link (Please note that the inclusion of these two links is SOP for umpire pages) AutomaticStrikeout (Evidence) 23:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC) - but  Done
• Categories should be sorted in alphabetical order in this case  Done

As of right now, this article fails short of the good article criteria. However, I'm sure you'll be able to fix my above concerns, which is generally consistently, reference errors, missing parameters and such, reliable sources in question, dead links, and many WP:REPEATLINK concerns. In any case, you have seven days to fix concerns per the WP:RGA guideline, I'll take another look after this happens. Thus, I am placing the article on hold. TBrandley 03:00, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

When are all of these concerns going to be addressed? If they aren't, I'll have to fail this article. TBrandley 17:00, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe that more work has been done, it just hasn't been checked off here. Lemme ask Eric and Phightins! AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 18:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

A couple of points to raise: The Retrosheet and MLB.com bio links are standard practice on umpire pages and I'm not sure how they violate the policy mentioned. Also, I don't believe there is an overlinking problem as the links are not going to the article about the year 2012, but to articles about the playoff series held that year. I may not be able to further help out here for today, as I have some other things to do in RL first. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 19:08, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• So I've just taken a quick glance and I see a few issues. First, Cowboy Joe is mentioned in the lead, but the article doesn't give anything about when/how he got the nickname. I don't think it's a big enough issue to fail per the comprehensive requirement for a GA, but it does need a source and does need to be in the lead and the body. It should also appear as an also known as rather than halfway into the lead. There are a number of other sourcing issues in the Outside of Baseball section which is mostly unsourced. I'll try to correct some of these issues when I get a chance. Ryan Vesey 00:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Great points, Ryan. I've incorporated your feedback into the article. I trimmed down the list of people West has performed with (no disrespect to Skunk Baxter or Les Dudek) and removed a couple of other items that were questionably notable. I think that helped the flow of the Outside of Baseball section in particular. Everything should be sourced now, but I may come back and take another peek in a bit. Thanks a lot! EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 18:42, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

• "Cowboy Joe", quotation marks should not be in bold  Done
• "who works for", I'm not really sure "works" is the best word to use, how about "plays for", or something

He doesn't play, he umpires and saying "who umpires for" might be redundant. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 01:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)  Done (Left out the verb altogether. EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 03:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC))

• "West entered the National League (NL) as an umpire in 1976; he" would suggest merging and changing the semi-colon into an "and" or something  Done
• In the lead, I would merge two sentence short paragraphs into larger ones, or maybe bring some more information down from the first paragraph into the second one  Done (I think it now works anyway EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 03:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC))
• "He has worked five", again, not sure about "worked"  Done
• "West was born in Asheville, North Carolina in 1952." after the lead, upon first mention the person should be referred to by first name, and then last name again from then on, per WP:MOS  Done
• Why is "East Carolina University" abbreviated in the early life section, but not the lead?  Done
• Why does it state "Elon University" in the lede, and "Elon College" in the early life section, would change to "college" in lead, as that is what it was then, keep it the same in the sections  Done
• "He was MVP" check your style, try "He was named Most Valuable Player (MVB)"  Done
• "After arbitration and appeals, he was rehired by the MLB in 2002." how can he be rehired? It doesn't mention that he was hired at all past the lede, and it needs to per WP:LEDE, so you may be missing something  Done (clarified EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 03:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC))
• "his 4000th game" do not use "th" per WP:MOS, not Wikipedia-style
• "2%" write out fully as "2 percent"; check whole article for this concern  Done
• "The Hardball Times" italics?  Done
• "In a 2011 players poll, Joe West was", change to just "West" – see WP:MOS  Done
• "$500" clarify which dollar you are referring to, I assume it is the US dollar -- Fixed Go Phightins! 02:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
• "On his check" how about "upon"

Frankly, I think "On his check" sounds better. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 01:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• Don't "shout" in reference titles
• Ref. 31 is missing publication date -- Fixed Go Phightins! 02:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

TBrandley 01:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Between three of us, I think we've addressed almost all of the issues. Could you clarify your concerns about the use of "th" and the percent signs? The way I read the MOS, four thousandth could be expressed as either a word or a number since it is a two-word expression. I may be misunderstanding what you meant there though. On the percent issue, we're left with a section that has several single-digit numbers expressed as numerals ("6 percent" instead of "6%" or "six percent") and I wasn't sure if that was your intent. I just get some mixed messages after reading different sections of the MOS. I appreciate your work, Tate. EricEnfermero ^Howdy! 03:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
  • No worries, it's the holidays now! I just have one final comment: the fact that he plays for MLB should be noted at least once after the lead, because right now it jumps right to: "In 1999, West was among 22 MLB", around there. Cheers, TBrandley 18:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
    • There is one problem with that, he doesn't play, he umpires. Does that make any difference or do you still want something to be added? AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 19:14, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
      • I have passed this article. TBrandley 20:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Place of birth/origination

So in parts of the article, it states that West is from Asheville, North Carolina while other parts say Greenville, North Carolina is there a correct answer? This would help with categories, or is he "from both?" Sportsguy17 (talk) 00:04, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I fixed it, I believe. Sources consistently describe him as being born in Asheville and raised in Greenville. He just shouldn't have been characterized as a Greenville "native" in the lead. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 01:47, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

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Off-wiki attention to this page

Note to editors and talk page watchers: there is likely to be a temporarily high level of off-wiki attention to this page due to this Reddit post suggesting that a certain recent WP:SPA on this page has a severe conflict of interest. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:22, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I have been monitoring the Reddit discussion, I'll be adding this to my watchlist for the time being. Given there is protection for now for about a month, I hope everybody will have given up and forgotten about it by then. Yoshi24517 ^Chat _Online 00:12, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Is there a good reason why we haven't included {{connected contributor}} yet? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:51, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Has the account been verified? Levivich (talk) 05:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

No, but that's not required. When someone comes in claiming personal knowledge and has a clear agenda in editing, it's reasonable to put that on the talk page. Unless there's something I'm missing, it seems like it should be here. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

West has acknowledged the account was his and gives more explanation about his reasoning for changes in this interview. Barkeep49 (talk) 08:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for linking that Barkeep49. I have started to try update the article to fix what are genuine inaccuracies that can be fixed with existing sources or an appropriate application of WP:ABOUTSELF. Cerebral726 (talk) 14:18, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that supports adding {{connected contributor}}. Levivich (talk) 20:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, per WP:OUTING, has he stated that on-WP? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:17, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Given that the person who operates the account has at least once signed a Talk page message with "Joe West," and Joe West has confirmed in the media that he was indeed editing Wikipedia, I think that would satisfy the req? --Pinchme123 (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

IMO that's good enough (I'll take your word on it). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:49, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: regarding this revert, the above discussion might allay your BLP concerns. I respectfully disagree that a single-sentence mentioning the Wikipedia controversy was undue, and I would be in favor of reinstating the sentence. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

If you want a serious discussion about the merits of including anything concerning West's dispute with Wikipedia in the article, I suggest you start by proposing text that is actually supported by the sources cited. Per my interpretation of WP:BLP policy though, even properly-sourced content would be undue - particularly after taking note of the fact that West's objections to the content evidently had substance to them, judging by recent edits. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:05, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The text you deleted was supported by the sources cited. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

No it wasn't. None of the sources stated that West "issued legal threats to many Wikipedia editors who reverted his edits". And if the sources had stated this, they would be demonstrably incorrect, since there was only one 'threat', concerning a single editor. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Upon further review, you are correct about that. And I don't think a singular legal threat warrants mention in the article. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Actually, it appears that two legal threats were made at User talk:Crewchief22. Still, that doesn't qualify as many. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:25, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I too am in favor of reinstating a sentence about West's editing, which in both cases that it has appeared was very well supported by its accompanying RS. I don't see how one sentence would be undue, given the comparative dearth of post-retirement coverage of him. I disagree that BLP policy should be interpreted to exclude news coverage about on-wiki activity related to disliking Wikipedia material, and also disagree that all of his objections have been found to be substantive. Specifically, the edits in question included removing factual, well-sourced information about a fine related to the Joe Torre shoving incident that still remains in the article. --Pinchme123 (talk) 00:26, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

We don't include questionable material just because there is a 'comparative dearth' of other material available. As for the remainder of your comments, I suggest you read WP:BLPEDIT, and then ask yourself whether this long-standing aspect of Wikipedia BLP policy was actually complied with before West made his comments about legal action. The evidence seems to the contrary, and I'd have to suggest that if it had been complied with, the situation would never have arisen. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a matter of including a subject's edits, or about evaluating their edits. This is about including coverage in the news about a subject's Wikipedia behavior. Nothing in BLPEDIT speaks to that. As to the rest of your statement, there's reported evidence of multiple legal threats, contradicting your own assertions about that fact. Whether two threats is enough to be reported in the news isn't up to us, it's up to RSes, and multiple RSes have deemed two threats enough to report on them (you also deleted this material when it was supported by this article , which also mentions a legal threat).

I mentioned the dearth of other coverage because, for something to be undue, it would need to be given unnecessary weight given the totality of the subject's coverage in sources. Sources don't say much about West, but what they do say includes this incident at enough of a rate to refute any assertions of its inclusion as undue.

But even if it stands that the coverage of legal threats by RSes isn't enough to warrant mention here, the remainder of the incident should still be mentioned.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 01:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Without the 'legal threats' the story amounts to 'man edits Wikipedia article about himself'. Which, it should be noted, is something said man is actually entitled to do. WP:COI is a guideline - and not one it is at all reasonable to expect the subject of an unwanted biography to be even the slightest bit aware of. If anyone had actually taken the trouble to engage with West with more than boilerplate messages, it seems highly unlikely that this situation would have arisen. WP:BLP emphasises the need to write "conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy", and adding negative content about the subject's interaction with Wikipedia is hardly compliant with this sentiment when one takes into account that our own poor behaviour inflamed the situation. Furthermore, the whole thing looks like navel-gazing, since I sincerely doubt we'd even be discussing this if West had been involved in a spat with say Twitter users instead. I see absolutely no reason to assume this minor event will have any long-term significance. West is notable as an umpire, not as someone who argues with amateur biographers... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:09, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

This entire reasoning is merely a substitution for the decisions by RSes. Your evaluation of what would or would not have happened in alternate realities is entirely irrelevant; this incident really happened, and RSes really decided to cover it.

I'd also like to specifically call out your assertion of a Royal We with respect to Wikipedia editors; "we" are not a monolith and "we" didn't do anything in this situation to warrant painting "our" behavior. Nor are we "amateur biographers".

RSes covered this incident, and it's significant enough in his coverage to warrant inclusion with a sentence.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 02:23, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

There are many Wikipedia policies which make it clear that having a source for something isn't in of itself always sufficient to justify inclusion. WP:RS is frequently full of ephemeral trivia, while multiple policies and guidelines make it clear that such material doesn't belong in articles. In the days of newsprint, this story would have ended up on the budgie-cage floor within a few days, and if it lasts longer now it is only in the archives. A fuss over nothing, that wouldn't even merit discussion here were it not for it involving Wikipedia. Self-congratulatory navel-gazing... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

More unsupported assumptions about an alternate reality, in addition to sidestepping actual policy descriptions (something is due if it is proportional in the RS coverage; this incident is proportionally covered, so it is due).

This conversation isn't going anywhere. You object inclusion, I support it. If others wish to contribute their opinion, perhaps this will go somewhere, but until then there's nothing substantive to discuss anymore.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 02:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Based on the sources I see at [1], I think including this atm fails WP:PROPORTION and WP:NOTNEWS. Related essay at WP:NAVELGAZING. Some WP:OTHERCONTENT (well, discussion about content) at Talk:Emily_St._John_Mandel#RFC:_attempt_to_correct_the_Wikipedia_article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:55, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

This is not about a subject attempting to change a basic fact about themselves (a divorce). This is about a subject attempting to change the basic facts about others (Torre) and making legal threats when those changes were rejected. Which is exactly what the RSes reported. I contend this is dissimilar from the Emily St. John Mandel case, because it is not "undue trivia". --Pinchme123 (talk) 15:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

And I think, per sources I've seen, which are from a 3-day period (and fansided seems rather WP:BLOG-ish [2]) that this fits "This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations" here on the talkpage, but for main-space purposes it's a very minor blip, at least atm. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:39, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Off-topic, but I was reminded of this article: "Pausing here to acknowledge that this is all highly meta: a discussion taking place on Wikipedia about whether Wikipedia should include information within that subject's Wikipedia article about how that subject covertly and unethically edited Wikipedia. (Taking it a step further, there's a relatively high possibility that the very article you are reading will at some point be cited on Wikipedia since this is usually the case with Slate and other outlets that have covered the site." In that particular case, consensus landed on "include". You could consider adding the West-issue at Conflict-of-interest editing on Wikipedia. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:50, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Wife

The information on Joe's Wife is possibly outdated. An article by MLB.com says his then-girlfriend "Rita Scott, and brother, John, joined West at third base.." It's also confirmed in a Sports Illustrated article from 2017 "His girlfriend, Rita Scott, is there, along with Fletcher, Ron Kulpa and Alan Porter, the other umpires in his crew.". But there is a similar article from ESPN in 2020 which states they were married "He plays golf. He is a singer-songwriter of country music and the husband of Rita, a former racquetball national champion.". With a follow up in 2021 from USA Today,"West returned to the field after several minutes, hugged his wife, Rita". I'm not sure how to word it, but it might be worth updating. After the recent editing controversy, I decided to take a look and seeing the dubious source. YellowStahh (talk) 11:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Be WP:BOLD, if you think you can improve it, go for it! Imdb is definitely not the best source for personal info in a BLP. —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:18, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Well I'm not super great on the wording myself. I don't know if we want to completely disregard the Jean Jo Masons marriage as it's not a completely realiable source. YellowStahh (talk) 16:52, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

I have updated that section with a couple of those sources as well as the interview he recently did linked above by Barkeep49. Cerebral726 (talk) 14:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Just a note that I removed his marital history twice[3][4] because it is based on a non-RS podcast under WP:BLPNAME. This podcast interview doesn't satisfy WP:BLPSELFPUB because it's not published by West and it involves claims about other people (exception 2). The marital status and full names can be reinstated if they are supported by RS. Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:38, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

This is absolutely absurd, you're casting aspersions on West that he is lying about his marital status, which is an uncontroversial fact. But just for good measure, here is an RS reporting that West's wife's name is Rita. I'll remove her last name from the article and add this source. --Pinchme123 (talk) 15:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

WP:BLP supercedes WP:BOLD here. Per WP:BLPNAME, The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. It should be sufficient to say that he's been married twice. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:01, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Then why isn't that the edit you made, instead of over-deleting? I've added back in and written a new format for the source that makes clear it's an interview. --Pinchme123 (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2023 (UTC)