Talk:John Tiedtke

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:19, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that John Tiedtke was an heir to a grocery and department store fortune, and his proudest accomplishment was philanthropic founding of a Bach festival? Source: "Tiedtke’s most notable contribution to the arts was his involvement in the Bach Festival. Since 1950 he had served as the president of the Bach Festival and turned the program into the high quality performances that it is today." Furrow and here and there

5x expanded by 7&6=thirteen (☎), Wilcley (talk), and StrayBolt (talk). Self-nominated at 19:19, 1 March 2020 (UTC).

ALT 1 ... that John Tiedtke, an heir to a grocery and department store fortune, was the philanthropic founder of a Bach festival? Source: "Tiedtke’s most notable contribution to the arts was his involvement in the Bach Festival. Since 1950 he had served as the president of the Bach Festival and turned the program into the high quality performances that it is today." Furrow and here and there

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Linda Laubenstein

ALT 2 ... that John Tiedtke, an heir to a grocery and department store fortune, lead, perpetuated and funded a Bach festival, that fluorished under his leadership?

• @7&6=thirteen: Hi, I will review this. I don't know what happened with the wikicode, but I fixed it. I respect that Cunard has contributed greatly to this page's AFD discussion to show that it's notable, but unfortunately, he has never edited the article so I have removed his name from the nomination. epicgenius (talk) 21:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
• @7&6=thirteen: I don't think he "founded" the Winter Park Bach Festival, but kept it going. StrayBolt (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

• If this is the case, the article and hook should be amended accordingly. epicgenius (talk) 21:39, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

• He was Chairman of the Board of Trustees for over 50 years.[1] StrayBolt (talk) 21:46, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

General eligibility:

• New enough:
• Long enough:
• Other problems: - Currently subject of AFD, so that will have to be resolved before this is approved or denied.

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing: - The sentence "He is buried at Woodlawn Cemetery in Toledo, Ohio." is not sourced.
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
• Other problems: - I would also suggest rearranging this article so it has a "Biography" section. Currently the only substantive sections are the lead and "Legacy".

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems: - I would suggest tweaking the hook, e.g.
  • ... that John Tiedtke, an heir to a grocery and department store fortune, was the philanthropic founder of a Bach festival?

QPQ: Done.

Overall: epicgenius (talk) 21:17, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Reply I have put in multiple sources establishing that the Tiedtke Family Mausoleum is at Woodlawn Cemetery (Toledo, Ohio). The only source I could find that explicitly places his remains in the crypt is this one at Find a Grave John Tiedtke at Find a Grave. I do not have access to Woodlawn Cemetery records. I know that there are those who opine that Find a Grave is "not a reliable source." I've always thought that to be doctrinaire and not well thought out. In any event, I have no better source at my finger tips.

The proposed alternate hook is fine with me.

The AFD will soon be inevitably and satisfactorily resolved in due course. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:40, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

epicgenius AFD closed as KEEP. Per the closer: "The result was keep Since relisting to allow for examination of the sources, a consensus has emerged that the article should be kept." 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:32, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Everything looks in order, but since I can't approve my own hooks, we will have to wait for another reviewer. epicgenius (talk) 14:12, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I like it. Great work on this article! Lightburst (talk) 04:03, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Hook tweaked. AFD closed as Keep. We only need a new reviewer? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:16, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

The first paragraph in the "Career" section is not cited. It appears that the similar citation from the lead section could be duplicated here? Flibirigit (talk) 02:55, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Flibirigit Added citation to first paragraph under "Career." Are we GTG? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:23, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

One other question, sorry. Is there a citation for his birth and death dates? I agree with the above concerns that he did not found the Bach Festival, but rather took it over after the founder died. ALT1 will need some adjustment. ALT0 seems very subjective with the words "his proudest accomplishment". Could a reworded hook be suggested? Flibirigit (talk) 02:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Put in more citations that show birth and death date. As to "proudest accomplishment" you are right that is subjective. "Philanthropic founder" isn't. Struck original hook. Alt seems clear and unambiguous. It is also cited and verified. WP:Verifiability, WP:Not truth. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 10:54, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

I am struggling to understand "philanthropic founder" in the same sentence with the Bach Festival. I don't see any source which uses those words. I see that he was a philanthropist, and I see that the founded other things, but I do not see where is says he was the philanthropic founder of the Bach Festival. Flibirigit (talk) 08:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate your struggle. You are right, They don't use those exact word. But this is a fair representation of what the sources say.

Nevertheless these sources show him to be a great force in the creation, development, direction, funding and success of that festival. Here is what they say:

• "Tiedtke’s most notable contribution to the arts was his involvement in the Bach Festival. Since 1950 until his death, he served as the president of the Bach Festival and turned the program into the high quality performances that it is today.""History: The Bach Festival Society of Winter Park". [In 1950] Rollins President Hugh McKean asked John M. Tiedtke, the treasurer of Rollins College, a music lover, and an astute businessman, to fill the opening and he agreed. Mr. Tiedtke served as Chairman of the Board of Trustees until his death in December 2004. Under his leadership, the Bach Festival Society expanded its programming to include two additional choral programs beyond the annual Festival, top-tier visiting soloists and ensembles, and community events in Winter Park.
• "Mrs. Isabelle Sprague-Smith, a former New York artist and school principal, was the president and driving force behind the Bach Festival from 1935 until her death in 1950. At Mrs. Sprague-Smith’s death, the future of the Bach Festival was uncertain. Rollins President Hugh McKean asked John M. Tiedtke, the treasurer of Rollins College, a music lover, and an astute businessman, to fill the opening and he agreed. Mr. Tiedtke served as Chairman of the Board of Trustees until his death in December 2004. Under his leadership, the Bach Festival Society expanded its programming to include two additional choral programs beyond the annual Festival, top-tier visiting soloists and ensembles, and community events in Winter Park." [2]. The citations are already in the article.
• Orlando Magazine noted that Tiedtke was "a savior to nearly every arts organization in town, including the Bach Festival, Florida Symphony Orchestra, Orlando Museum of Art, Orlando Opera, and Festival of Orchestras—all that besides being a founder/funder of United Arts of Central Florida".

What do you suggest would be acceptable to you? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:00, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

User:Flibirigit I've added ALT2 to try to address your concerns. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Approving ALT2 with the adjustment noted by the strikethrough. Led and perpetuated are redundant with his leadership. Hook is verified and properly cited inline. Article meets all other DYK criteria. Flibirigit (talk) 05:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

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Connections

Is he connected or related to Tiedtke's Department Store Tiedtke's in Toledo, Ohio? It's not a common name. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:28, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Interesting person. This is the type of biography Wikipedia excels at being so valuable. -- GreenC 14:42, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

User:GreenC I thought this was a better and more worthy addition to the encyclopedia, or at least more utilitarian, than the average porn star bio (for example, and not that there is anything wrong with that). Indeed, this is somebody whose example should be memorialized. But that's just my personal opinion. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:04, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree. Rich benefactors are not well covered on Wikipedia, there are a lot of them who lived uncontroversial quiet and exemplary lives. -- GreenC 23:26, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Burial place

We know where his remains are interred, but sourcing it is problematical. I have put in multiple sources establishing that the Tiedtke Family Mausoleum is at Woodlawn Cemetery (Toledo, Ohio). However, the only source I could find that explicitly places his remains in the crypt is this one at Find a Grave John Tiedtke at Find a Grave. I do not have access to Woodlawn Cemetery records. I know that there are those who opine that Find a Grave is "not a reliable source." I've always thought that to be doctrinaire and not well thought out. In any event, I have no better source at my finger tips.br> Anybody got access to the Woodlawn Cemetery records? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 08:11, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I think it is OK unless there is a reason to dispute it. It is where the rest of his family is buried, and where they are from. They are a well-known family from Toledo. It would be silly to dispute Find a Grave in this case, without counter-evidence. -- GreenC 23:14, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Reference removal

Both <ref name="Engaged"/><ref name="Married"/> mention Dartmouth. I moved them. In any event, there is only only business school there. You are fly specking and WP:Edit warring. Not to mention violating WP:3RR User:WilliamJE. I understand you moved to delete the article. It was kept. Get over it. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:21, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

User:WilliamJE You are not using common sense. Requiring every word to be independently referenced (they all mentioned Culver, they all mentioned Dartmouth, but only one mentioned the master's degree) is silly. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:37, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I redid the text and the references. Per your claims.

And now you say it is over cited. You are the one who required every word to have a citation. You got that, and then are not pleased. Trying to reason with you is like shooting at a moving target. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:44, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Internet Archive & external links

The use of a text string search at Internet Archive (Works concerning John Tiedtke at Internet Archive) is completely trivial and overkill, providing more noise than signal. They are not works about or concerning Tiedtke, they are works that include a name, no matter the relevance. We might as well include "Works concerning John Tiedtke at Chronicling America" and "Works concerning John Tiedtke at Google.com." WP:ELNO advises against "Any search results pages, such as links to individual website searches". For works that are realistically worth highlighting on Internet Archive, we can use {{Internet Archive author}}, which uses creator or subject metadata to find realistically relevant works, not every yearbook, newspaper article, or phone book that has a matching term somewhere in text. An interested reader is perfectly capable of typing a name into a search engine. --Animalparty! (talk) 16:35, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

When you say "no relevance" do you mean they are books about a different John Tiedtke (ie. false positives), or they are books you personally believe are not relevant even though they contain information about John Tiedtke (ie. "I don't like it")? Also Internet Archive is not Google, they are different data sets and purposes for existence - Google would absolutely be inappropriate because it brings up so many false positives due to the scale of their data and the way their search engine works. I am the author of the template {{Internet Archive author}} and it does exactly the same thing: search Internet Archive with an Elastic Search string. In this case I could not use it because we are doing an in-text search (ie. &sin=TXT) versus a metadata search which the template does not (yet) support. -- GreenC 17:02, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I said "no matter the relevance", please quote correctly. False positives are not the issue, it's that we're throwing unfiltered scraps of data at the reader, some of which may be interesting but most of which is unlikely to expand significantly on what already is or what should be in the article, and to me it implies readers aren't capable of searching information on their own and need to be spoonfed primary sources. {{Internet Archive author}} generally presents a filtered or curated selection. I see absolutely no difference in linking to name drops in one site but not others (newspaper archives, Google Books, HathiTrust, etc.). We might as well replace the link with Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL. --Animalparty! (talk) 23:03, 7 March 2020 (UTC)