Talk:Kami

Comments

May someone explain me exactly Tanuki Z changed in this article and why? Seems to me that it would be advantageous to keep the previous version, but I guess I am failing to notice something important. Thanks! Luis Dantas 15:21, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've rolled it back, that's only if you're linking from the meta, quote, or textbook Wikipedias to Wikipedia English version itself. Otherwise the w: is useless. -- user:zanimum

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Is "god" really a good translation for "Kami"? It is my understanding that many are, but nature spirits and very ancient and/or revered ancestors are also considered Kami. For that matter so is the Buddha, who made it a point of stating that he was not a god. Luis Dantas 03:15, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No, but it's certainly the most common usage of the word. No language's words can be translated into another without losing shades of meaning. A translator must determine what word to use. "Divine spirit" might be preferred in many uses of the word 神. -- Myria 17:24, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No, "god" is definitely not a good translation of the word, because it implies a "higher" power. "Divine spirit" would fall under the same thing. Someone reading this page in its current version would take away a mistaken view of Shinto, because it implies that the kami are worshipped as gods, which they are not. They are revered, which is a subtle but important difference. Kami can be good or bad, they can be wise or foolish, they can basically have all the virtues and all the shortcomings of human beings. I'm trying to find an excellent book I have on Shinto, and when I do I will work on this page a bit. MikeDockery 12:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Kami-sama (ie: with honorific addition of sama) is the word for "god" in Japanese that I most often hear associated with speaking of a "god" specifically (in the western sense of the term), or monotheistic religions and their gods. Phresno 02:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I hear that too, mainly from Japanese Christians. It's not ever used formally in Shinto, I don't think. It uses the same kanji (神) and pronounciation as "Kami" in the Shinto sense, but I think that's a Christian construction... MikeDockery 03:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm native Japanese. In modern, corroquial Japanese language, the words "Kami" and "Kami-sama" both can mean Japanese idea of Kami and Western ideas of a deity/the god. The word simply refers to "something important, something governs, and something to be worshipped or believed". Japanese often think Christian God as one of Kami, high entity, while Buddha and Amaterasu are Kami too at the same time.

Japanese does have a plural form of 神: 神々 (kamigami). Japanese doesn't have plurals in the normal sense, but for some words, it does; in this case, 神々 is to "god" what "people" is to "person". In fact, Japanese has this same pattern for "people": 人 (person) -> 人々 (people). The symbol 々 means "repeat last kanji"; 神々 can also be written 神神, though it is rarely done. -- Myria 17:24, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that's true, but it is much less common, and a fact like that would probably be better noted on a page detailing complexities in the language itself. -- Clevomon

Kami-gami is an expression that is used especially in case it is necessary to show respect to all respective entities referred. Whether using plural form or not, for Japanese people, Kami is definitely plural idea. A Japanese man live in Sugamo, Tokyo, can worship Jesus, Ksitigarbha, and Amaterasu respectively as a Kami.

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Could we get a list of kami on this page? There really needs to be one.

• All 8,000,000 of them?  ;-) Nik42 22:27, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
  • No, the first 1M should suffice. XD Seriously, as much as I would think that a list would be nice, that's for another article and digging up names is going to be rather complex Nevermind, notice one's already in progress.--Mitsukai 21:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

documentation of theophany by kami

Does anyone know if there is documentation of visitations upon the living by kami? Chris 23:37, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Ever seen a tree? ;-) Seriously, the line between gods and humans is sort of blurred in the ancient Shinto myths, but I think the gods were just sort of around, interacting with normal people all the time. There may also be stories where someone's ancestors appeared to them or something like that. If I come across anything specific I'll let you know. MikeDockery 23:50, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, you wanted an example, so: The Yata-no-Kagami, Amaterasu's sacred mirror, was said to be initially kept in the palace in Nara until 100BC, when the daughter of Emperor Sunin, Princess Toyosuki'iri had it moved to Kasanui-no-mura because of supposed jealousy over the beauty of her ancestress. It was said that immediately thereafter, Amaterasu appeared before Emperor Sunin, demanding a more suitable location for the mirror. A long search was undertaken, with Amaterasu reappearing on occasion to harrass the people in charge of the search, and in 4BC, Princess Mikoto discovered a site near Isuzugawa where the mirror would be enshrined peacefully. That place is now the Ise Shrine.--み使い Mitsukai 03:12, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Two suggestions...

1. Include an etymology section: This would be useful, as the Ainu kamui and a word meaning "above" (as referred to in this article's second paragraph) are both suggested roots of the word according to various sources. Some (such as the venerable Yahoo!) support the latter, in spite of apparent general consensus being that originally they were not viewed as being inherently superior or being "above" us in some heavenly kingdom, and that the complex mythology of Izanagi, Izanami and Amaterasu is a later (Chinese-influenced) development, with others, such as Louis Fréderic (do other encyclopedias count as valid references?) give due emphasis to the former.

2. Remove the statement about the word's translation: Both of these words ("god" and "deity") have been used throughout their histories to refer to nature spirits that are basically deified ancestors: Greek nymphs and Roman house deities, Hindu local deities, Norse elves and so on... It is therefore inappropriate to say these translations are inappropriate.

elvenscout742 00:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

"Kami" as a Shinto honorific

I've removed the following for the time being:

In its usage within Shinto, the word is an honorific (See: Japanese titles and Japanese honorifics) for noble, sacred spirits, which implies a sense of respect or adoration for their virtues and authority. Since all beings have such spirits, human beings (and indeed all beings) could be considered kami or potential kami. However, because the Japanese almost never use an honorific to refer to themselves or to a member of a group to which they belong, it is uncommon for a normal human being to be referred to as a kami (Ono, 1962).

Although it appears to be sourced, it still seem pretty dodgy to me. I have no doubt that kami is probably considered a honorific term in Shinto, nowever the rest of it I can't really agree as readily with.

For one, honorifics are used almost always when refering to other people. An honorific doesn't necesarily imply a higher status of the person addressed. In fact, -kun, -chan and even -tan are all honorifics. Addressing somebody without an honorific (nasute) is rare and considered rude.

And second, all human (and all other) beings are considered potential kami in Shinto. When they die, they pass on to kami-hood, unless something goes terribly wrong. Simple as that. TomorrowTime 23:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, even if something goes terribly wrong, they become kami (specifically, ancestor-gods), they just become kami who are in their wrathful state. Ancestor-kami who are in their wrathful state are usually called ghosts. 174.17.145.192 (talk) 08:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Moving pop culture Kami to another page

Would it be possible to move all the pop-culture kami references to another page entirely, with disambiguation links? I am tempted to suggest the deletion of all the references to kami within nerdporn as being inauthentic to the subject, but realizing that there are people who insist on wasting their time playing a game that was designed for 12-year-olds, maybe a separate page would be better. It would certainly make the article look more professional.Happydog 21:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, a number of longer articles went through a similar change lately. Kitsune, Kappa, Tanuki, Tengu all have their separate "In Popular Culture" articles, and it's working out great - people that are serious about the state of these articles can keep up a good effort at a serious article (kitsune was just recently FA), and people that feel the inexplicable urge to mention that the hairdresser from page 372, volume 43 of their favorite manga resembles a kappa have an article where they can proclaim this. I'd support this; the article at hand seems to be long enough to merit a split like that. TomorrowTime 23:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. Kami in popular culture. The article is long enough without the list, and a split is acceptable, IMO. TomorrowTime 14:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Merging pop culture Kami back

Please don't shoot me, but I merged Kami in popular culture back into this article. I have merged back less than 10% of the "pop culture" article's content (3-4 sentences). A number of "popular culture" articles have been deleted recently (although an almost equal number have been kept) and the consensus at WP:AFD seems to be this (please note, this is just my interpretation, which others may not agree with): popular culture sections that become long and lack prose should either be prosified or trimmed; sections that contain prose or are limited only to significant pop culture references may be worthy of their own articles or worthy or remaining in the main article.

I have added a hidden message to the bottom of the "Kami in popular culture" section discouraging trivial additions. Moreover, I have added this page to my watchlist and will monitor the section. However, given my lack of knowledge about the subject and my limited involvement with the article, I will ultimately defer to the consensus of those editors who most actively work on this article: if you firmly believe the content has no place here, I will not oppose its removal; conversely, if you feel that the short version can stay, I will regularly trim and/or clean up the section as necessary. Cheers, Black Falcon 05:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I certainly ain't shooting you - you did what I didn't have balls to do. I suppose I should have outright deleted 90% of the original list in the first place. And it's good to hear you're willing to chaperone this article's pop culture section - I'm almost out of the wiki thing lately (no time, no time), and I only peep into some of the articles I used to keep an eye on now and then. Good hunting! TomorrowTime 00:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The recent edit by a Japanese IP

A user with a Japanese IP has recently made this [1] edit. Since this is apparently an edit by a Japanese user, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, but I would still like some explanations.

1: 神達 (kamitachi). Does this word really exist? I never heard of this use, and it has a strong anime ring to it. I checked google ([2]), and the first one hundred pages are all in Chinese. As I find, there is plenty of interference because of the Chinese name for the company MiTAC, but this doesn't change the fact that the expression kamitachi seems to be virtually nonexistent on Japanese web-pages, else at least one Japanese language page would show up in the first one hundred.

Actually, it's very commonly rendered 神たち, with the latter kanji character being represented by hiragana characters -- a Google search reveals more than 100.000 hits on this word. The suffix -tachi (たち) is a formal, somewhat honorific addition to a word's end to denote a plural, e.g. 私たち (watashitachi, "we"), 蛍たち (hotarutachi, "fireflies"). Trust native speakers!　Ninja housewife (talk) 06:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

2: re:female kami. As I understand it, it's not that the female kami were that commonplace, it's more the fact that the word kami itself automatically includes both sexes (as do many other Japanese words). The megami blurb that was removed by the edit is originally mine, and was put there to set straight the former version, that made it appear that all female kami were called megami. Regarding this part of the edit, how about we reword the additional info? It does seem like some information on the above said male-female ambiguity of the word kami could be useful. TomorrowTime 19:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It's been a while, and no comment has been made, so I went ahead and readjusted the female kami issue. TomorrowTime 22:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

a Google search reveals more than 100.000 hits on this word.

You are right, I'm not sure what I was thinking not checking the hiragana spelling. However, most of the Ghits seem to be either from certain book titles (日本人と神たち仏たち, 神たちの誤算...), refer to excedingly good sportsmen (車座の神たち,衝撃ダウソ板の神たち), or to gods/deities from other traditions. There is, granted, a page on Kojiki [3] that uses the term, but that is a rare bird indeed among the first 100 Ghits. I still believe that in the case of Shinto, kamigami (or yaorozu no kamigami) is predominantly used, and that kamitachi is not usually used in this context. I will not, however labour the point.

Regarding trusting native speakers, I'm a literary translator, and the first major hurdle I had to overcome when starting out professionaly was re-learning my own native tounge - it never up to that point struck me that most native speakers aren't all that good at our own native tounges. So, I'm not prepared to put blind faith in matters of language in someone on the merit of them being a native speaker alone. TomorrowTime (talk) 12:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I still think that native speakers have a leg up on those of us that don't grow up speaking a particular language. As a professional writer and editor, I know all too well that native speakers don't necessarily speak (or write) their languages according to prescribed rules/definitions. Blind adherence to a particular viewpoint on this is bad either way, but I would generally yield to a native speaker, just as I would expect of someone questioning me on my language. Ninja housewife (talk) 14:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You are right, of course, and I agree that native speakers do have an advantage (although, at the same time, learning a language anew does give one certain insights that might be lost on native speakers), but I tend to also trust my own instincts regarding languages (I have good linguistic instincts), and when they tell me something sounds funny, I will try to investigate, to dispute the fact or else to learn something new - afterall, who's to say the native speaker (if it is, indeed, a native speaker) in question is correct? More so when it's just an IP - I have no idea who's behind that IP and just how trustworthy they are. That is why I put the question down here - to see if someone has some insight that I lack. You've provided an alternative route to be explored, and frankly, I'm not convinced by the results, as I said above. That said, I could be terribly wrong, I have been before - it's just, so far, I have no reason to believe so. TomorrowTime (talk) 18:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Your original question asked whether the word exists, and that's been answered here. Ninja housewife (talk) 20:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You are right, and I thank you for the new bit of knowledge that gave me. TomorrowTime (talk) 05:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Etymology of Kami

Without having to wade first through tons and tons of files on Japanese, I would think that the main article could be improved by supplying a paragraph on the etymology behind Kami. Is there an etymology? What sound shifts might have changed the word in the last thousand or more years? 216.99.219.108 (talk) 23:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

kami is japanese word for paper, too.  Ori-Kami, fold-paper,,,

Kami means both paper and head hair in Japanese, though the Kanji are different of course. I would like to attempt to make an etymology section in this article, and I was hoping to start a dialogue here about the simplification of the language, as the lead is really cluttered and doesn't make a lot of sense. While the source Weblio has the meaning as effigy, the Denshi Jisho defines Kami (神) as god; deity; divinity; spirit. This is the more common definition, and in fact, I have not seen any other source that defines Kami as effigy. It might be better to state that Kami are the spirits or entities that are worshipped in the religion of Shinto. --Ampersand of Y (talk) 02:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Kojiki

The article currently states: "The oldest written record of creation (and that of Japan as well) is in the Kojiki of 712." Torah scrolls containing the 'Genesis' creation myth predate that by 700 years. I'm editing this to remove the patently false claim. Darkpoet (talk) 03:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

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Copyediting Queries

Spelling of foreign terms in article

There are a number of foreign terms in the article. I was unable to check the spelling of a number of words, so anybody working on this article after me who is fluent in Japanese may want to check that foreign words throughout the article have been spelled correctly.

Etymology

• The first entry in etymological suggestions may need to be revised. Below is a possible revision, adding parentheses around what may be text showing the pronunciation of the kanji 神.

Possible revision (but only if it does not change the intended meaning of the author): "Kami may, at its root, simply mean spirit, or an aspect of spirituality. It is written with the kanji 神 (Sino-Japanese: shin or jin). In Chinese, the character means deity".

• The second entry in etymological suggestions needs to be revised for clarity. Below is a possible revision.

Original: "In the Ainu language, the word kamuy refers to an animistic concept very similar to Japanese kami. The matter of the words' origins is still a subject of debate; several hypotheses about their similarities exist: the Japanese word was borrowed from the Jomon/Ainu language, or are cognates of an extremely distant common ancestor."

Possible revision (but only if it does not change the intended meaning of the author): "In the Ainu language, the word kamuy refers to an animistic concept very similar to Japanese kami. The matter of the origin of these two words is still a subject of debate and several hypotheses about their similarities exist. The Japanese word may be borrowed from the Jomon/Ainu language, or the two words may be cognates of an extremely distant common ancestor."

• The following text, appearing near the end of this section, needs to be revised for clarity. It’s difficult to understand, and a large amount of the text is also set in italics. It should be reworded so it’s easier to understand, and any words that do not need to be italicized should be changed to roman text.

"The logograms for kami-sama are those used for shén yàng in Pŭtōnghuà; 'kami-sama can be used for a divinity, or for an outstanding human, such as Tezuka Osamu, "the god of manga." The term generally used to refer to multiple kami is kamigami."

• The last sentence in this section also needs to be revised. Below is a possible revision, but only if the text is factually correct:

"The word megami (女神), referring to female kami, is a fairly new tradition."

History

In the last paragraph, I recommend the following revision:

Original: "…and the 3,131 official-recognized and enshrined kami."

Possible revision (but only if it does not change the intended meaning of the author): "…and the 3,131 officially-recognized and enshrined kami."

Shinto belief

• In the fifth paragraph, are “all” kami considered to be “anthropomorphic spirits, with nobility and authority”, or is it only “some” kami? The first two sentences suggests all, but then the third sentence uses the phrase “these kami”, as if referring to the example given in the second sentence, and suggesting that only certain kami (like Amaterasu-ōmikami) are considered to have those attributes. I recommend rewording this paragraph for clarity. I have left it untouched (aside from other unrelated edits) as I do not want to change its meaning.

• In the sixth paragraph, the term “ya-o-yorozu no kami” does not need to be italicized, but I can’t figure out how to make it roman. I removed the italic markup but it is still in italics.

• In the second last paragraph, the word “omamori” is used, and then the word “mamori” appears in the following sentence. The second instance of the word appears to be a typo, but I’m not sure. I have not altered the text.

Ceremonies and Festivals

• In the first paragraph, the text describes two variations of a ritual. I recommend the following revision to make the text clearer:

Possible revision (but only if factually correct): "One of the first recorded rituals we know of is Niiname-sai, the ceremony in which the Emperor offers newly harvested rice to the kami to secure their blessing for a bountiful harvest. A yearly festival, Niiname-sai is also performed when a new Emperor comes to power, in which case it is called Onamesai; in this variation of the ceremony, the Emperor offers crops from the new harvest to the kami, including rice, fish, fruits, soup and stew. The Emperor first feasts with the deities, then the guests. The feast could go on for some time, for example the Showa Emperor's feast spanned two days."

• In the second paragraph, the text describes a traditional method for gaining a kami’s attention. I’m not sure if the last two actions are to be done separate from each other, or at the same time (clap twice and then bow again, or clap twice while bowing again. I have not altered the text as I do not want to change its meaning. Here is the text:

"The traditional method of doing this is to bow twice, clap twice and bow again, alerting the kami to their presence and desire to commune with them." 

Here are two possible revisions:

"…bow twice, clap twice, and then bow again, alerting the kami…"

"…bow twice, then clap twice while bowing again, alerting the kami…"

The last sentence in this paragraph has a similar issue and will also need to be revised for clarity, depending on the intended meaning.

• In the fourth paragraph, there is only one festival given as an example (the New Year Festival). Since this paragraph is discussing festivals, I recommend adding one or two additional examples so readers can appreciate the different kinds of Shinto festivals, and how kami figure into them.

• In the last paragraph, the following sentence may need to be revised. I recommend the following revision (adding a comma and the word “and”), but only if it does not change the author’s meaning:

"Ceremonies and festivals are long and complex because, and they need to be perfect to satisfy the kami."

Notable Kami

There is an entry in this section that may need to be corrected for capitalization. Should “mikoto” have a capital “M”? (The other two entries in the list, “Izanagi-no-Mikoto” and “Izanami-no Mikoto”, have it capitalized.)

“Susanoo-no-mikoto, the sea and storms god”

Copyediting Conclusion

I have completed the copyediting on this article. Please direct any questions or concerns to my talk page. It was a pleasure working on the article! David Thibault (talk) 18:40, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

shinkai

What is this? Seems to apply to humans too? Arlo James Barnes 07:08, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

image of israel?

why does this article have flag of Israel as its image 5.22.128.196 (talk) 07:09, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I have no clue what you are talking about Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 13:34, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

The preview image was changed to the flag of Israel through vandalism to a module. It was reverted quickly but remained in the cache for some pages. I've purged the cache for this page so it should be fixed now. Nardog (talk) 06:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

"Kami, Iran" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Kami, Iran has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 29 § Kami, Iran until a consensus is reached. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)