Talk:Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan

Rename

for simplicity's sake, I suggest this be moved under Kiko, Princess Akishino. Akishino is a title, her husband is Fumihito Saito, Prince Akishino; parallel to that of Charles, Prince of Wales 217.140.193.123 21:31, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) I have understood that akishino no miya kiko shinnōhis translation would be: Kiko, princess-consort of princedom Akishino. (As far as anything can be translated fully.) Am I correct in trusting that the abovesaid Japanese wording is in use of her in Japan? (or, why is it mentioned in the text??) 217.140.193.123 9 July 2005 10:55 (UTC)

Date inconsistency

The article currently claims that the subject was born in both 1966 and 1981. Also, the dates given for various parts of her education do not make any sense. Hopefully someone with knowledge of the subject will correct these inconsistencies. --Dglynch 23:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

New Picture

How about someone gets a new picture? The current one is, in my opinion, a bit poor. SIGURD42 18:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I was just going to say the same thing. Her husband is more prominent in the picture and is casting a shadow on her. A picture of just her would probably be more suitable. Redtitan 19:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the picture of someones dick doing on here?

Just some immature wiki vandals. --Chicito21154 18:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I really think it would be nice to get a better photo. The one here is quite condescending. I have seen some nice photos on the net but I dont know how to handle the copyright issue. Do I just asked the page owner where I found the photo. Are there not some official photos that can be used?? Any ideas anyone? --Hoffybear2002 06:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Pregnancy

What are the reactions in Japan to the princess' pregnancy ? I guess that must be a huge surprise ?208.46.78.226 17:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It would seem to be, since her daughters are 14 and 11. I wonder what will happen if this child turns out to be the long awaited son... Prsgoddess187 18:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC) I guess we'll find out right about now... hehe Bushido Brown 05:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yukarin, thanks for editing, but this page is not for writing your opinion on Japanese imperial system. --222.158.236.49 07:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher

I hadn't realised Princess Kiko was the wife of Margaret Thatcher. That's quite an interesting piece of info right there.

:D

I think something needs to be done about the abundance of vandalism on this page. It's starting to get ridiculous. Morhange 22:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What the hell does Margaret Thatcher have to do with this article? --Chicito21154 18:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity

I've corrected the ambiguous wording, the one where the clause 'the second son of the Emperor Akihito' is enclosed in commas, as it could be seen to refer to either the Prince or the Princess. While I realise that a more careful look at the text makes it obvious that the Princess cannot be the second son of the Emperor Akihito, I think that such wording has two grammatically permissible meanings, even if one is contextually nonsensical, and may confuse readers at first glance. 218.186.9.1 05:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Dozens of Headers - Format Error

The article appears to have dozens of "This Article Documents and Current Event" headers. I can't find out how to remove them. Someone who knows what they are doing should do so. --Corinthian 13:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I saw that to, but then I went to Edit, didnt change anything, hit show prewoew, then saved, seems to be gone. I don't know how or why, or if its just on my computer... 19:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly 41 years?

It wasn't exactly 41 years, now was it? Shouldn't it be changed to 41 years and XX months? -24.92.41.95 22:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Empress or emperor?

"(in Japan only the wife of an Emperor is called an Empress)" from Chrysanthemum Throne article. If the law is changed will the new female monarchs be called Emperor or Empress? --Gbleem 03:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

In English "Empress" obviously, however in Japanese it will remain "tenno" which applies for ruling males and females equally. "Empress-consort" in Japanese has various other names, such as "kogo", "chugu", etc. Gryffindor 11:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Difficulties in palace life

This is my first Wiki comment so I'm not sure if I'll have the coding correct. I've long followed the princess' life and an important part of her story -- a large part, in fact -- has been overlooked here. This article reads as if it was issued by the Imperial House. There were numerous reports of her unhappiness, which developed into serious depression, caused by the stresses of palace life. Bureaucrats there, as well as the entire country, put such pressure on her to become pregnant that she became a virtual recluse. The article as written sounds like it was posted by the Imperial House. No mention of her difficulties. Here is a link to just one story, there has been reams of copy written about this: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/20/MNGTF6OMJF1.DTL&type=printable -- drusefton —Preceding undated comment added 14:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC).

This refers to a newspaper story about Princess Masako, who is the wife of Crown Prince Naruhito. --Tenmei (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Image from Imperial Household Agency website

An uploaded image of Princess Akishino signing at a Deaf event was improperly uploaded from the Imperial Household Agency website.. A careful examination of the fair use rationale revealed critical flaws which could not be resolved. A summary is archived below.

Flawed Non-free use rationale

A review of this failed template may help mitigate similar problems in the future. Non-free use rationale Article = Japanese Sign Language Description = Kiko, Princess Akishino gives a speech in Japanese sign language (JSL) at the 22nd Sign Language Speech Contest for High School Students -- August 28, 2005. Source = (in English) http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/e-about/activity/activity03.html and   (in Japanese) http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/activity/activity/03/activity03-ph.html Attribution: Asahi Shimbun; please note Japanese Imperial Household Agency, Notice on Copyright Portion = The entire photograph is used to convey the impression intended by the Imperial Household Agency (Kunaicho) and to avoid tarnishing or misrepresenting the intended image. Low resolution = The digitized image of the original photograph is a size and resolution sufficient to maintain the quality intended by Kunaicho without being unnecessarily high resolution. Purpose = The significance of the image is to help the reader (a) to identify the use of JSL by a member of the Japanese Imperial family, (b) to show the use of JSL in the context of actual communication, (c) to assure the readers that they have reached the right article containing critical commentary about JSL, and (d) to illustrate the subject of JSL in a way that words alone could not convey. Replaceability = Because it is a Kunaicho photograph, there is almost certainly no free equivalent. Any substitute that is not a derivative work would fail to convey the impression intended by Kunaicho, would tarnish or misrepresent Princess Akishino's image, or would fail its purpose of identification or commentary. Other information = This image comes from the Imperial Household web page which gives it a unique historical imprimatur. This image is a faithful digitisation of a unique event in which Princess Akishino participated; and in this context, she signed a message to the deaf Japanese in her audience in 2005. The image of the Princess at a Deaf event plus the image of her gestures and hand signing plus her facial expression plus the plain black dress she chose to wear so that her signs could be seen by her audience are the subject of commentary rather than the event it depicts (which is the original market role). Note: Japanese Imperial Household Agency, Notice on Copyright

The discussion thread about deleting this file is archived at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2010 December 4#File:Princess Akishino JSL.jpg

The image was removed from the article about Japanese Sign Language (JSL).

If another image of the Princess using JSL is uploaded, it would enhance the quality of the article about JSL. In addition, it would be good addition to this article about the princess. --Tenmei (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Prince Akishino which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:15, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Fumihito, Prince Akishino which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:00, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Request Move

Hi, is it possible to rename the page to Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan since she is officially titled that right now and the Crown Princess part should be first now in the page before the Princess Akishino (ex: Crown Princess Akishino on the Imperial Family website, so should be Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan, Princess Akishino) now at this point since the ceremony? She is also called Crown Princess Kiko as well in news reports, just as she was when Princess Akishino. I also vote for same request on Fumihito's page as well. Mirrorthesoul (talk) 19:10, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Please follow the process at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting multiple page moves. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:55, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I'd support such page moves for she & her husband. GoodDay (talk) 22:01, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 10 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED (non-admin closure) Spekkios (talk) 20:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

---

• Kiko, Princess Akishino → Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan
• Fumihito, Prince Akishino → Fumihito, Crown Prince of Japan

– Since 8 November 2020, Prince Akishino, now Crown Prince, officially took the ceremony to mark him first in line after his brother who is now the current Emperor of Japan. The Imperial Family also lists them (both Fumihito and Kiko) as Crown Prince and Crown Princess on their site as well. So I think it's fair to have the page changed to match them. Also before anyone mentions about their Akishino title, they haven't dropped it, so I feel that they should have it listed on their pages as I've mentioned above. (Ex: Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan, Princess Akishino just like how some other royals on Wiki have their pages, like Crown Princess Victoria as an example) Despite the links are there on their pages, I might as well post them here. Mirrorthesoul (talk) 06:31, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support, their most important title now is that of Crown Prince and Princess and the articles should reflect that. Векочел (talk) 15:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support, they are the crown prince & crown princess. The emperor isn't getting a divorce & isn't going to have a son with his wife. GoodDay (talk) 23:16, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support, both moving the pages and keeping their other title in the introductory part. It is clear now that this is a title they have. --Killuminator (talk) 22:47, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
• We have to go with what the official sources say, which in this case is the Imperial Household Agency. On the website of the Imperial Household Agency they are referred to as 秋篠宮皇嗣殿下 (Akishinonomiya kōshi denka; HIH Crown Prince Akishino) and 秋篠宮皇嗣妃殿下 (Akishinonomiya kōshihi denka; HIH Crown Princess Akishino). On the English version of the same website, they have also been referred to as Crown Prince Akishino and Crown Princess Akishino multiple times 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. As it is evident, their titles of Prince and Princess Akishino haven't been dropped but rather elevated to Crown Prince and Crown Princess Akishino to reflect their new rank. Thus the appropriate titles would be Fumihito, Crown Prince Akishino and Kiko, Crown Princess Akishino. Anything other than this would be WP:OR, and in this case we are forced to let go of the usual way of setting up page names for crown princes or princesses (which is [Name], Crown Prince/ss of [Country]). Keivan.f^Talk 17:36, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
  • This is exactly why I was suggesting to have in the title: Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan, Princess Akishino because of that. She's not Crown Princess of Akishino here. She's Crown Princess of Japan despite still having the Akishino title. Akishino is her side title now. Mirrorthesoul (talk) 22:48, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
    • Yes, she's not Crown Princess of Akishino. She's Crown Princess Akishino (Akishinonomiya kōshihi). Akishino is not a side title, it has been her husband's branch of the imperial family since the day they got married. Their titles simply have been elevated from 'Prince/ss Akishino' to 'Crown Prince/ss Akishino'. Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan, Princess Akishino is unnecessarily long and is also incorrect per official sources. Also, there's no such rule that we should go with the Crown Prince/ss of [Country] format for all pages about heirs and their wives. This couple has a specific title, and so does the heir to the British throne (Prince of Wales) or the heir to the Spanish throne (Prince of Asturias). The accurate title for the Japanese heir to the throne is right now Crown Prince Akishino per the Imperial Household Agency. There's no way around it. Keivan.f^Talk 23:34, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support move to Fumihito, Crown Prince Akishino and Kiko, Crown Princess Akishino, per Keivan.f. Peter Ormond 💬 18:50, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support Kiko, Crown Princess Akishino. It's unnecessary to say princess twice and this seems to be the shortest unambiguous form including her personal name. There's no precedent for including 'of Japan': there are no articles whatsoever in Category:Imperial House of Japan using a country disambiguator and it would be inconsistent to start doing so for a single article. Celia Homeford (talk) 11:56, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support Fumihito as he is the primary topic for that name and this is consistent with his father, brother and grandfather, who are all at just their personal name; or Fumihito, Crown Prince Akishino if consistency with his wife is more important than consistency with his male-line blood relatives. Celia Homeford (talk) 11:56, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

• I think it should be consistent with his wife’s article (and the articles on other male relatives who have not been become emperor, including Masahito, Prince Hitachi, Takahito, Prince Mikasa, etc. all of which follow the pattern [Name], [Title].) Keivan.f^Talk 03:08, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

May I point out, that before Naruhito succeeded to the imperial throne. He & his wife's bio article titles were Naruhito, Crown Prince of Japan & Masako, Crown Princess of Japan. Best we keep with that precedent, using "...Crown Prince of Japan" & "...Crown Princess of Japan". GoodDay (talk) 01:06, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

That would be WP:OTHERSTUFF though (this is not a deletion discussion but you get my point). Each article needs to be evaluated based on its own specific situation. In the case of Naruhito, he was never granted a specific princely title to start a new branch of the imperial family. His title as a young member of the imperial family was Prince Hiro (just as his brother Fumihito's was Prince Aya). He was named crown prince on 23 February 1991, and was simply known as 皇太子殿下 (HIH The Crown Prince) afterwards (source: 1). On the website of the Imperial Household Agency they were also simply referred to as Their Imperial Highnesses the Crown Prince and Crown Princess. That is in contrast to his brother and sister-in-law who are referred to as Their Imperial Highnesses Crown Prince and Crown Princess 'Akishino'. Keivan.f^Talk 01:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Sad to see, that there's a chance both articles will be moved to 'odd' names. GoodDay (talk) 03:28, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I mean it's not that odd, it's just their official title. It's certainly not my preferred format, but we just have to stick with what the official source says IMO. Keivan.f^Talk 20:52, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

We could just go with the most prominent title in the article name similar to other royalty who have multiple titles and follow what's most commonly used in news articles. --Killuminator (talk) 21:28, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

They're the crown prince of Japan and crown princess of Japan. It's too bad, that fact isn't going to be reflected in their bio article titles. Well, that's the annoying side of Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 23:57, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

On a slightly related note, why are emperors Akihito and Naruhito titled only by their personal names? It's contrary to pretty much every other standard for their relatives since princes, princesses and empresses have the title in the article name. It's true for both dead and living persons. Even when you Google the names of these living emperors, every media source will use the proper etiquette. Wikipedia is like some bizarre exception. I see no justifiable reason for this odd practice that is used only here. Inserting one word into the title should be relatively uncontroversial. Queen Victoria's page is titled Queen Victoria rather than simply Victoria. I suggest we visit this question too. Same for Hirohito, who is apparently the first in this deviation in names. --Killuminator (talk) 02:30, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

@Killuminator: Well, I guess it’s because they’re monarchs and we tend to avoid prefixes such as king/queen or emperor/empress in these cases (examples include Elizabeth II, Napoleon, etc.). I guess Naruhito and Akihito’s pages are fine at this point. They can be moved to their posthumous titles once they have passed. Hirohito’s, however, is an exceptional case. It should have been moved to Emperor Shōwa to match the articles on deceased emperors, but some people argue that Hirohito is the common name in English and it should not be moved to another title. If you wish to change that page’s name, I’m afraid you have to start a new RM. Keivan.f^Talk 12:57, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Infobox image

@Camillz: An infobox image should fully show the subject's face. In other words it has to be up front. This image that you are forcefully trying to insert into the lede is of no encyclopedic value. We don't use side profiles as infobox images unless there is no other suitable photo available; which is not the case for Kiko. Keivan.f^Talk 00:55, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

the concern for me was that you were seemingly unaware that was kiko. I put it in until another mor recent photo then one from 2016 is found. Camillz (talk) 04:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm fully aware it's Kiko. It still does not show her face clearly. Recentism is not a factor when putting up an infobox image. The subject's face has to be shown clearly; and she has not changed much since 2016 anyway. Keivan.f^Talk 05:19, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Her face is clearly to be seen though, also sorry for the confusion with the whole you didn't know, it's just you stated whilst editing twice "absolutely ridiculous that it's not her face" or something similar Camillz (talk) 05:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@Camillz No worries. Yes, her face can be seen, but from the side! An infobox image should show the subject 'facing the camera'. There are multiple examples that you can refer to, including Naruhito, Joe Biden, Charles III, Queen Camilla, etc. Seeing one side of her face does not make her recognizable to a clueless reader unfamiliar with the subject. Keivan.f^Talk 05:55, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright, If another more recent image (from the front) with copyright that allows me to, I'll upload it and add it here. Until then I suppose I'll just leave it here. Camillz (talk) 05:58, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course; a suitable recent image that shows her face completely, is of high quality, and has no copyright issues can always be used. I'm sure no one would oppose it. Keivan.f^Talk 06:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes it's been done before I'd assume, thanks for your time Camillz (talk) 06:02, 16 January 2024 (UTC)