Talk:Libertarian conservatism

WP:RS and WP:POV Problems with this article

When I have a chance I'm going through the references to see if they confirm statements made. And you better come up with evidence every one of those individuals listed every called themselves a libertarian conservative. Starting with Lew Rockwell who denies it in the beginning of the article first referenced.

Where's the article on all those Liberal Libertarians who want massive government controls but are social liberals and antiwar. In fact where is antiwar? Needless to say this article needs a criticism section on why anyone who DOES call themselves a libertarian conservative is not a libertarian at all. Carol Moore 18:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Here are some simple definitions from my civics textbook. “Libertarian: One who favors a free market economy and no governmental interference in personal liberties.” - “Conservative: One thought to believe that a government is best that governs least and that big government can only infringe on individual, personal, and economic rights.” So how exactly are these conflicting ideologies? They seem pretty compatible to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.232.7.146 (talk) 16:07, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I cleaned up some of the problems but it remains chock full of unproved assertions and original research. It's enough to wonder if there is such an animal, though a quick internet search shows there are far better articles to base this on. Carol Moore 01:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Merge Poorly Sourced Neologism Right-libertarianism to Libertarian conservatism

• First, it is unlikely this article would survive the neologism test, despite unref'd coining of term by one Sam Konkin. See WP:NEO.
• Second, most of the content that actually can be reliably sourced can be merged into Libertarian conservatism which is slightly less of a neologism. Carol Moore 18:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Rewriting article rather than crabbing about it

Removing all the material that is not reflected in references and obviously is original research. Leaving only accurate sourced material and adding enough more to make the article make sense and be accurate. However, I will be deleting the list of alleged "libertarian conservatives" where no one supplies and I don't find evidence individuals actually call themselves by that description, per WP:BLP. Carol Moore 23:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

This whole article is INCORRECT

Libertarian Party says they are not conservatives. http://www.lp.org/faq says "Are Libertarians liberal or conservative?

Libertarians are neither. Unlike liberals or conservatives, Libertarians advocate a high degree of both personal and economic liberty." 71.131.5.113 (talk) 18:32, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

• I 100% agree. libertarianism has nothing to do with conservatism. I have been in the movement since 1975, and the party since 1976 and it has never been considered conservative. Jeff Smith (talk) 01:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

There is a difference between big "L" Libertarians (i.e., the Libertarian Party) and small "l" libertarians, which is a political philosophy. Small "l" libertarians (of which I consider myself one) oftem have nothing to do with the Libertarian Party, but they may. Personally, I find nothing wrong with the premise of the article. Many libertarians (such as me) coinsider themselves also "conservatives" under the principle of fusionism. That concensus is breaking, but it is still there. --Amcalabrese (talk) 20:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Libertarians support very small government. Also, prostitution and victimless crimes like marijuana are proposed to be legalized by libertarians. Conservatives are "family values" oriented and would never legalize any of these things. By definition, these 2 groups are complete opposites and there is no fusion possible. I have never heard of this big "L" and little "l" libertarians and seems to not be part of any libertarian group I have met or read about, so maybe it is a conservative Republican issue. 71.131.19.214 (talk) 00:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

On the above paragraph, I'm a "Family Values" Conservative and have no problem with legalizing marijuana as long as the law which does so has two prongs: 1) Marijuana is now legal and to be available, regulated, and taxed as alcohol is, and 2) If someone abuses the privilege and becomes a complete waste of a human being as a result, the rest of us are free to walk past as he lays in the gutter without any legal responsibility to aid him. Voluntary assistance is of course at one's own liberty. So as you see, the assumptions made by the paragragh in question are largely incorrect. Additionally, I think homosexuality is repulsive and disgusting, but who cares if two folks choose to engage in it? As long as I am not forced to recognize or acknowledge it as I lead my life, then more power to 'em. So again, conservative+libertarian. Liberals, on the other hand, make no room for objection of conscience. You MUST recognize such lifestyles, or you are labeled "irrational" and "afraid" of it. It is Liberalism and Libertarianism which are incompatible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stormvet (talk • contribs) 19:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

While libertarians are neither liberal or conservative, they are, in a way, both. They are liberal in the sense that liberalism means freedom, and in the classical liberalism of Thomas Jefferson and the like. Remember in many countries, liberal means less intervention in the economy. Also, politically conservative can mean conservative in the sense of generally being against government expansion, federal interference in state government, and new government programs. Gtbob12 (talk) 18:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

All that matters is what your WP:RS sources say. Find the ones that make your point. CarolMooreDC (talk) 20:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Libertarian conservatism is todays conservatism. Its small government both socially and economically while preserving values and traditions. Reagan, Goldwater and in th tradition of many of th Founding Fathers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.87.106.230 (talk) 02:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Article should be called Small Government Conservatives

The fusion proposed by some writers is impossible because prostitution and victimless crimes like marijuana are proposed to be legalized by libertarians. Conservatives are "family values" oriented and would never legalize any of these things. 71.131.19.214 (talk) 00:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

This article has deleted all the unreferenced stuff which is misleading, including unreferenced listing of people and groups. A few people do call themselves or are called libertarian conservatives so article itself is valid. Whoever keeps adding stuff on Libertarian Party is adding irrelevant material since the article doesn't even mention the party. Please defend why this is not neutral or I'll remove the tags. Carol Moore 05:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The whole article is not neutral and should be deleted since by definition, there is no such thing as a Libertarian conservative. It makes as much sense as somebody calling themselves a libertarian liberal. You are wrong about wikipedia rules. You can reference and opinion such as the opinion Ronald Reagan thought he was a libertarian, but he spent more money and increased government size to the largest budget ever. So his opinion was not neutral. but it can be included. The libertarian party opinion that Republican conservatives are not libertarians is also not neutral. To balance the 'BS' in this article, you have to present both opinions. The limitation on neutrality is when an editor twists the what is being cited into something that was not said in the cited article. 71.131.3.229 (talk) 04:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Technically conservatism is not a set of political beliefs but a reference to traditional political beliefs. In the US the traditional beliefs is classic liberalism therefore conservatism is classic liberalism as well as libertarianism. In Russia a conservative may reference to communism. In Iran conservatism may reference Islam.

Libertarian Conservatives (or more properly Conservative Libertarians) do exist

I for one am one. I have not nor am I about to edit this article, but for all the Libertarians above who don't understand how this could happen....it mostly boils down to one key issues. Pro-Life vs Pro-choice. (legalization and prostitution are things we'd legalize, they don't affect me, and my government isn't also my church) A Conservative Libertarian believes in social and economic freedom, but still has strong personal religious faith. 75.34.181.107 (talk) 11:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Thats a broad generalization. I too am a Conservative Libertarian and I'm completely agnostic about religion. Does that render me incapable of being Conservative Libertarian?

Libertarianism boils down to "do whatever you want along as you dont harm others" Libertarian conservatives is a moderate view of that either meaning preserving societies values and traditions or meaning simply a moderate and rational pace and take on issues from the libertarian stance.

I believe there are two types. One, a conservative who wants the government out of their lives as much as possible or two, merely a moderate libertarian.

Please explain page tags or see removed

Please explain {Unbalanced} and {Totally-disputed|date=November 2008} tags whoever put them up or they will be removed. Carol Moore 23:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed today since never explained. Probably left wingers mad that there wasn't any mention of left wing libertarianism conservatism, something which doesn't exist. CarolMooreDC (talk) 03:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Article needs to provide the counter arguments to Libertarian conservatism

For example Noam Chomsky has some good criticisms of libertarians,and how people use the word in order to win votes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

I think you'd want a libertarian party page and if you have good sourced material directly related to topic of article, go for it. CarolMooreDC (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Please don't come to a page and just request that someone else do the work you want done for you. If you'd like to make a contribution, please do the research yourself. We welcome and encourage it.

Difference between Republican Conservative and Conservative

Conservative = Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.

(((If I may interject here, this definition is not completely accurate as applied to politics. I'm a "Conservative" and If I had been alive in 1911 when the airplane came along, I would have SUPPORTED "change" as we made some common-sense regulations of making sure pilots knew what they were doing with those wacky flying machines. So to say we "oppose change" makes us look rather stupid, which to me then introduces a bias in the definition. Conservatives do oppose some changes, but it is done on a "If it is not broke don't fix it" basis, not some ignorant "Augh! Change! Run away!" basis as the above definition suggests. This then leads back into those "traditional" things which have heretofore worked, like the non-acknowledgement of perverted lifestyles and the like. We like these things. They help keep society decent, and worthy of the eys of children. They don't need fixing, in our opinion, and we won't recognize any changes made.)))-Stormvet

This can be taken differently by many different origins. Many people who have posted in this discussion need to take a look at the 'big picture' concept and realize that the definition of conservative might NOT apply to the definition of what is considered American conservatism.--Melharts85 (talk) 15:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

This article about something called/people who call selves or are widely called libertarian conservatism/conservatives. Using only WP:RS of course :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 03:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Libertarian Conservatism vs. Liberal Conservatism

Isn't libertarian Conservatism in Europe called Liberal Conservatism? --Novis-M (talk) 03:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

What do reliable sources say? CarolMooreDC (talk) 22:46, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I am asking wiki users who have some ideas...after reading both articles, I feel that these two are same, with exception that liberal conservatism is used in british english, and in whole europe, while libertariansm is the term used in the United States. I'm not making a statement, I'm just asking for a help from people who know this stuff. --Novis-M (talk) 01:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably. In the US, liberal has developed a different meaning from what it historically meant, primarily due to people like Franklin Roosevelt. Historically liberal has a closer meaning to how americans use the term libertarian today, but liberal now has a closer meaning to "third way" systems which attempt to integrate capitalist and socialist ideologies, and are collectively oriented, rather than individual oriented as in classical liberalism. 216.160.83.123 (talk) 21:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Libertarian conservatism v. conservative libertarianism

About twenty five years ago, there was plainly a difference between those called “libertarian conservative” and those called “conservative libertarian”. Both had a style of presentation and concern of conservatives; both typically had personal histories of conservatism. But the conservative libertarians were actual libertarians — they made every attempt to accept the libertarian notion that one should never initiate what libertarians consider coercion. Libertarian conservatives, on the other hand, were classical liberals but not extreme classical liberals; they felt that there were important exceptions to the non-initiation principle. —SlamDiego_←T 03:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I lived in So. Ca. 25 years ago and don't particularly remember that. But the bottom line is -WP:reliable sources. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't in SoCal 25 years ago, and wasn't referencing a local nomenclature. Guys like Poole and Machan were regarded as genuine libertarians; guys like Milton Friedman or Murray were not. Anyway, my reason for making the distinction here is merely as a first step in the background. You're certainly right that “reliable sources” are required to support any definitions presented. Of course, that also applies to any equation of these two terms. —SlamDiego_←T 04:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Historically this article went from a non-sourced WP:OR piece to what available sources supported to some extent, but it is not perfect. If you want to do the work to see how WP:RS use the two different phrases, go for it. If I think it's POV i'll deal with it. I just don't want to see the POV WP:OR of olden times :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Eh, if I run across something, I'll let you know. But more than 20 years ago I gave away most of my literature from within the libertarian movement, and I didn't pay much attention to the literature by non-libertarians about libertarians, as what I found was almost invariably grossly wrong. —SlamDiego_←T 21:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Supportive Phrases

No one has included phrases that more accurately describe the idea's of Libertarianism. I think it would really add to the article if people contributed quotes that best describes the attitude of all Libertarians.

"Live and Learn." - Anonymous

"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves." - Joseph Smith

"That they (the powers of heaven) may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw• themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved" - Joseph Smith

"I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination. . . . It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul." - Joseph Smith

"All religions must be tolerated... for... every man must get to heaven in his own way." - Epictetus

"God has entrusted me with myself.” - Epictetus

“No man is free who is not a master of himself" - Epictetus

"To accuse others for one's own misfortunes is a sign of want of education. To accuse oneself shows that one's education has begun. To accuse neither oneself nor others shows that one's education is complete." - Epictetus

I have chosen two of my most favorite mortal philosophers and included one well known phrase. I will add to this list later, for the purpose of people becoming educated about how many philosophers advocated a high degree of liberty, at least in respect to a certain part of life.

In all of these articles on politics, philosophy, and religion, there are no phrases that describe the principle concept of individual liberty near or at its purest. I find virtually nothing to inspire people to actually give a flying $h!t about individual liberty...which Wikipedia itself promotes by allowing the common individual to add credible and published information at their leisure.

HerrQuixota--174.23.200.192 (talk) 11:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

There is a whole article on Libertarianism people can read. CarolMooreDC (talk) 08:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Liberal Conservatism

Reading the articles about libertarian conservatism and your fusionism, I have come to a conclusion: these are all different names for liberal conservatism. If there is no opposition, I would like to propose a merger with the aforementioned libertarian concepts as sections under liberal conservatism. 67.183.157.148 (talk) 10:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge into right-libertarianism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This article's intro says it means the same thing as right-libertarianism. If it is true that it means the same thing then I support a merger of this article into the right-libertarianism article.--R-41 (talk) 01:55, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that right-libertarianism should clearly get deleted. So, certainly do not merge to that one. The situation at this article is not as bad. North8000 (talk) 18:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. This article, although shorter, is significantly better and should be improved upon using some of the citations from the other. Harpsichord246 (talk) 00:15, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and it goes deeper than that. Right-libertarianism posits a topic which does not exist, a form of libertarianism by that name. This article posits something ( a blend of libertarianism and conservatism) which might exist. I suspect that what this article is really about is a huge topic & phenomenon which is not covered in Wikipedia: "libertarians who are in or mostly support the US Republican party". Their philosophy is libertarianism, not a blend, and it conflicts with conservatives on a wide range of issues. North8000 (talk) 10:20, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Conservative libertarians and Libertarian conservatives exist. However, it should be made clear that a conservative Libertarian is a libertarian with some conservative views (against abortion for example), while a libertarian Conservative is a conservative who has some libertarian views (such as support for the legalization of marijuana). The first (Conservative Libertarianism) is the more serious term that many libertarians (such as myself) use occasionally to be specific about their beliefs. The latter is a term used by conservatives who often don't completely understand what libertarianism is or agree with libertarians but are completely unaligned with the libertarian philosophy. A conservative might say "I am quite a libertarian conservative" or "my views are pretty libertarian" when describing a certain political topic, such as economics. But a libertarian would say "I believe in the conservative libertarian philosophy." In short Conservative Libertarianism is a philosophy (more official) while being a libertarian conservative is not. Harpsichord246 (talk) 02:13, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I think that that further refines my thoughts.North8000 (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I vote to keep the article, as Libertarian conservatism and Right-libertarianism do appear to have different definitions despite the intro. Libertarian conservatism seems to deal with a fusion of the libertarian and conservative political philosophies, whereas Right-libertarianism involves the capitalist, individualist, and pro-private property wing of libertarianism while having nothing to do with the political philosophy of conservatism. --Adam9389 (talk) 14:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Close This has been open for 7 months. I'm going to call this closed as "clearly no consensus to merge". Other questions discussed in this section are now being discussed in other threads, let's continue those there. If anybody disagrees, please reopen this. North8000 (talk) 13:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Renaming of Article

Shouldn't this article be named Conservative Libertarianism because it seems at first to be discussing the libertarian philosophy with conservative leanings and not the other way round. However, the section that lists a number of people seems to list people who are predominantly conservative (with the exception of Ron Paul) but have some libertarian leanings. I also believe that the term Conservative Libertarianism is the formal term.

In a different section I stated the difference between the two terms: ... it should be made clear that a conservative Libertarian is a libertarian with some conservative views (against abortion for example), while a libertarian Conservative is a conservative who has some libertarian views (such as support for the legalization of marijuana). The first (Conservative Libertarianism) is the more serious term that many libertarians (such as myself) use occasionally to be specific about their beliefs. The latter is a term used by conservatives who often don't completely understand what libertarianism is or agree with libertarians but are completely unaligned with the libertarian philosophy. A conservative might say "I am quite a libertarian conservative" or "my views are pretty libertarian" when describing a certain political topic, such as economics. But a libertarian would say "I believe in the conservative libertarian philosophy." In short Conservative Libertarianism is a philosophy (more official) while being a libertarian conservative is not. Harpsichord246 (talk) 19:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

A couple of questions on your two posts to clarify.

• When you say "libertarian with some conservative views of "conservative with some libertarian views" I'm assuming that you are talking about having the "other views" in an area where the two philosophies conflict? I ask hat because the two philosophies have significant overlap and so all libertarians have some conservative beliefs, and all conservatives have some libertarian beliefs.
• On the "against abortion" example, did you mean simply against abortion, or did you mean in favor of government action to outlaw or restrict abortion? A 100% libertarian could have the former belief but not the latter. I ask this because it was one of your two main defining examples.

North8000 (talk) 23:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

On your second question: You make a good point that a 100% libertarian would not support government action against abortion but can still be against it. So with that in mind, supporting government action would be a conservative lean on the part of the libertarian. If a libertarian believes that he sides conservatively on a lot of issues for philosophical reasons then he has the right to call himself a Conservative Libertarian.

On your first question: You are right that the philosophies overlap but you would not be a conservative if you were pro choice and supported gay marriage, you would either be a libertarian, a liberal conservative, or a moderate. The overlap that takes place mostly occurs only in economics. Harpsichord246 (talk) 00:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, agree (except IMHO the the overlap is a bit bigger that you describe). I was just clarifying what you meant. North8000 (talk) 11:07, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess the overall question is whether either 2 word sequence that describes a "blend" is a somewhat recognized term used is a somewhat consistently way. The alternative would be if it is not that and only descriptive (like "big dog" or "red car") I don't know the answer to that question, but believe that that is is the question. North8000 (talk) 11:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

It is a description (the adjective being conservative and the noun being libertarian in Conservative Libertarian). Therefore, the philosophy itself is a conservative form of libertarianism. In some respects it is a blend but it is not subjective. Conservative Libertarians believe in morality as a crucial point in society and that natural law defends the regulation of some social issues (like abortion) because it infringes on the freedom of another person. The overlap you describe only takes place in the realm of economics; with many conservatives and libertarians agreeing that the free market is the greatest system that preserves freedom and provides the most prosperity. Harpsichord246 (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I'd still stick by my previous post. But either way this article has important material covering an important topic. North8000 (talk) 20:40, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. Right-libertarianism is a group of libertarian philosophies which are definitely libertarian. "Libertarian conservatism" is a term referring to political philosophies that are sort-of libertarian and sort-of conservative/in the gray area. While there may be overlap between these two, they are distinct. Also, right-libertarianism is a very necessary term to divide libertarianism into 2 clearly distinct groups, while "libertarian conservatism" appears to usually be a term used as a descriptive device for convenience. Byelf2007 (talk) 17 November 2012

Oppose. Right libertarianism clearly refers to defense of laizzes faire capitalism and of the capitalist class as as such it is a form of right wing politics. Contemporary economic centrism will mostly refer to economic positions close to those of the US Democratic party and the Canadian Liberal Party which is not really pure laizzes faire politics while it also really cannot be said to advocate democratic socialism.--Eduen (talk) 02:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Worldwide sources

I don't have time right now, but just book googling "libertarian conservatism" France I got a couple interesting hits. Try it for a couple other countries, enter the data, and we can get rid of the tag. CarolMooreDC 15:15, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

A supposed misconception

Deleted from the intro:

• sometimes erroneously called right-libertarianism

If there is a verifiable comment from someone outside of Wikipedia who thinks Libertarian conservatism should not be identified with "right-libertarianism", let's quote them. But not in the first sentence, please. --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

That's reversed. You need sources to make such a claim, and strong sourcing to state it as fact in the voice of Wikipedia. What has been seen in the years here on the topic is that "right libertarian" has so many different meanings in uses, most of them ad hoc, that it has no real meaning. And and few of those meanings are consistent with "libertarian conservatism". I've been less involved with Libertrian conservatism, but I guess that "Libertarian conservationism" does have a meaning, sort of a combination of the two. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with North8000. Of course working on this article the good news I couldn't find any WP:RS saying they were a bunch of war mongers or Islamphobes, though some individuals who identify thusly sure are! ;-( CarolMooreDC🗽 19:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Johnston info, not in citation

Johnston, Larry: Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State. University of Toronto Press, 2007, p. 154-155. 2007 version at this diff shows no evidence he talks about "libertarian conservatism". In fact he talks about "liberal conservatives". While some may consider those libertarians, unless the text calls them libertarian conservatives it's WP:Original research to use it and should be removed. User:Carolmooredc 00:49, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Given the anon IP has failed to respond, in a few days I'll go back to my version. Also, I assume libertarianism box should go on top. Any problem with that? Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 23:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Libertarian Conservatism isn't an actual thing

Libertarian Conservatism isn't an actual thing. The proper terminology would be paleo-conservative. Paleo-conservatives are distantly similar to Libertarians but are fundamentally different on key issues. My suggestion is to delete the article or rename it. Libertarians are fundamentally socially progressive liberals... Always have been, always will be. That's an indisputable fact; to reject that, just shows pure ignorance on the part of the rejector.

Note: the above comment (NOT by me) was posted December 2016. North8000 (talk) 20:56, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

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Addition of Neoliberal populism section

An identical copy of this substantial new section has just been placed in at least 5 articles. I think that this is good work that needs to be placed somewhere but placing 5 identical copies in 5 articles seems like a bad idea. Probably we should revert and ask them to just put it it in the most relevant article. BTW I plan to do the same with this post in all of those articles.  :-) North8000 (talk) 23:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Split: "Libertarian conservatism", and "Conservative libertarianism"?

What about splitting it? Compare equivalent French article fr:Libertarianisme conservateur. Chicbyaccident (talk) 19:32, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Well this and several similar libertarian articles are about some terms that are used rather than a distinct strand of libertarianism. I'd like to see it and other ones kept or reduced to very short articles about the term and its usage. That said, I think that it comes down to whether or not the term "conservative libertarianism" is in common use in the English language, and whether or not it's usage is distinct from Libertarian conservatism. Ir the answers are Yes & Yes, then I'd say another article on that short term is in order. My guess is that the answers are "no" and "no" but I'm no expert on that and you may know better than me. If it's "yes" and "no" then perhaps we should just mention it in this article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

@Chicbyaccident: I was just going to open a discussion discussing exactly this, when I found there already was someone who thought the same. Is libertarian conservatism and conservatism libertarianism simply different terms to mean the same thing? Or is it more akin to liberalism conservatism and conservative liberalism (i.e. the first one being a liberal version of conservatism and the second one a conservative version of liberalism)? Perhaps conservative libertarianism refers to culturally conservative libertarians and libertarian conservatives to conservatives who support many libertarian policies in relation to the government and economy? Like there's some overlap, but they're still two different things (the first one inspired by the American libertarian tradition and the second one by the traditionalist tradition, no pun intented)?

@North8000: I don't understand why you see libertarian articles as merely terms when they're clearly a distinct strand, or tradition, of libertarianism; having very short articles about the term and its usage would just cause confusion, like they're all similar but different terms to refer to the same thing when it's not exactly the same thing. Conservative liberalism and liberal conservatism aren't just some fancy terms; they're used to describe a real thing too.--Davide King (talk) 16:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Reagan

The sentence 'However, President Reagan turned the United States' big trade deficit into debt and the United States became a debtor nation for the first time since World War I under the Reagan administration.' seems quite biased (in the way it was said), any chance this can be re-stated?Ech25 (talk) 17:45, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Ech25, what would you change and how is it biased exactly? It's merely saying what happened as reported by reliable sources.--Davide King (talk) 04:40, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I understand it's from a reliable source but the way it was said seems quite bias to me, so if there is another reference I think that could be better to decipher..?

Ech25, I still don't see how the wording is biased in reflecting this. Many libertarians have criticized Reagan for that.--Davide King (talk) 21:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Libertarian conservatism vs. conservative libertarianism

This article appears to confuse at least two separate ideologies (though partly related). Just as liberal conservatism and conservative liberalism are two distinct ideologies (despite some overlapping beliefs), so too are libertarian conservatism and conservative libertarianism. Moreover, libertarian conservatism is simply another term for what is liberal conservatism (i.e., conservatism influenced by classical liberalism). The term libertarian conservatism gained more traction in the US and the UK (at least in part because of the inconsistent meaning applied to the word liberal), but it is the same ideology as liberal conservatism, as it is known around the world.

Here is one source that specifically uses them interchangeably. It then contrasts liberal/libertarian conservatism with paternalistic conservatism.

This is the definition of liberal conservatism: "strongly pro-capitalist, asserting the strongest possible relationship between the market economy, individual liberty, and the rule of law."[1]

Indeed, it is virtually identical to other experts describing libertarian conservatism ([2], see p. 78):

Although conservatism draws heavily upon pre-industrial ideas such as organicism, hierarchy and obligation, the ideology has also been much influenced by liberal ideas, especially classical liberal ideas. This is sometimes seen as a late-twentieth-century development, the new right having in some way 'hijacked' conservatism in the interests of classical liberalism. Nevertheless, liberal doctrines, especially those concerning the free market, have been advanced by conservatives since the late eighteenth century and can be said to constitute a rival tradition to conservative paternalism. These ideas are libertarian in that they advocate the greatest possible economic liberty and the least possible government regulation of social life. Libertarian conservatives have not simply converted to liberalism but believe liberal economics to be compatible with a more traditional, conservative social philosophy, based upon values such as authority and duty. This is evident in the work of Edmund Burke, in many ways the founder of traditional conservatism, but also a keen supporter of the liberal economics of Adam Smith.

Here, too, the author contrasts libertarian conservatism with paternalist conservatism, using the same principles ([3], see p. 79).

In conclusion, much of this article belongs in the liberal conservatism article, with a note indicating that it is also sometimes referred to as libertarian conservatism (many political ideologies have multiple names). Much of the rest belongs in an article to be named conservative libertarianism. --Precision123 (talk) 15:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

My own opinion is to take about 3/4 of the "hyphenated" libertarian articles and recognize that they are just terms and not really defined topics, and reduce the most of them to just covering the meaning(s) and usage of the term(s). North8000 (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

The more I read, the more it seems necessary to rename this article Conservative libertarianism. Conservative libertarianism is distinct from libertarian conservatism (known generally as liberal conservatism). See, e.g., Political Ideologies by Andrew Heywood, Chapter: "Conservatism," also available here. Thoughts, User:North8000? I can proceed with the process of moving the page. --Precision123 (talk) 16:34, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

@Precision123: Thanks for your work on this. Per my previous post I place less stock in these hyphenated libertarian terms being useful and as a result have much less expertise than you on what political philosophers consider these compound terms to mean. So I would trust your expertise/research in that area to suggest moving as you see fit. A couple of notes. I presume that this title/article would then be a redirect to the new one? Also the new one is already an edited redirect so you'll probably need help from someone with tools to move it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:00, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

@Precision123: I support your renaming proposal. Fourmidable (talk) 14:57, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 24 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

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Libertarian conservatism → Conservative libertarianism – Talk:Libertarian conservatism#Libertarian conservatism vs. conservative libertarianism Fourmidable (talk) 15:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 01:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 17:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 14:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Conservatism and WikiProject Politics/Libertarianism have been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 01:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Conservatism and WikiProject Politics have been notified of this discussion. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 17:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: This proposal was closed but then re-opened per request at Special:PermanentLink/1220523654#Moved page. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 14:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I strongly oppose this request. Libertarian conservatism is the official term used by experts such as Andrew Heywood, whereas "conservative libertarianism" is not an established term in political science. Instead scholars use terms such as right-libertarianism and paleolibertarianism to refer to that form of ideology. However, there are minor parts of this article that ought to be purged in order to draw a distinction between actual libertarian conservatism (preached by the likes of Thomas Sowell) and non-conservative or even anti-conservative libertarianism. Trakking (talk) 15:14, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Hyperbolick (talk) 04:46, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.