Talk:List of cities in Israel/Archive 1

Archive 1

Correct spelling of Israeli cities

Following the publication of the "REPORT ON THE CURRENT STATUS OF UNITED NATIONS ROMANIZATION SYSTEMS FOR GEOGRAPHICAL NAMES" compiled by the UNGEGN Working Group on Romanization Systems - Version 3.0a, May 2008, the original United Nations recommended system (approved in 1977 and based on the official system (1957) proposed by the Academy of the Hebrew Language and used by the Survey of Israel) and following increasing public pressure over the years asking the Academy to change the transliteration rules, make them more simple and adapted to everyday use, after much deliberation, the system was amended in 2007, on the basis of a decision by the Academy of the Hebrew Language taken in November, 2006 the new rules have been ratified. So "ק" is now "k" and "ו" is now "v". For example, "Petah Tiqwa" should be "Petah Tikva".Barmispain (talk) 13:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC). See link [1]

Checking the list

A serious extension, as well as some careful spell checking, are in order. (Elzamam, 25/05/03)

Today this list matches the corresponding list in the Hebrew Wikipedia, with two exceptions. First, understandably the Jewish populated places in the West Bank that are cities by Israeli standards (Maale Adumim, Betar Illit, and Ariel) are in a separate list. Second, although Caesarea is a historic Roman city, I suspect it's not currently considered a city. --Hoziron 04:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm converting the text form of the list to tabular form, so that it will be easier for me to add "Gazeteer" equivalents of the cities' names. Also, this will make it more obvious where Arabic equivalents are missing, so that they can be filled in. I've already done the top two regions (Northern & Haifa), will churn this out as my insomnia dictates ;) I'm using [Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names] as a source for Gazeteers' Forms; all of the "common" forms are listed there also, in fact many common forms appear! Suggestions are requested for other sources... --D'n 01:36 22-November 2005 (UTC)

Ethnicity?

OK, damage restored, and all the tabling is done. What do people think about adding a 5th column, "Ethnicity"? Most cities would be "Jewish"; while Taybe and Qalansawe (for instance) would be Arab; Rahat Bedouin; and Jerusalem and Lod would be Mixed. D'n 05:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

• D'n: While the notion may appeal to you, it's nevertheless a very bad idea. You will open up a "can of worms" that will be too problematic. How and when will the "ethnicities" end, what criteria to use, are just some of the major problems. Many people will object, as you can see for yourself in the current UNANIMOUS Vote for Deletion (cfd) for Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 December 4#Category:Cities with significant Arab Israeli populations. Otherwise, the rest of your organizational and technical work has been excellent. IZAK 06:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

• In the past I might have thought it worth looking into, but apparently this is a very sensitive area and I don't want to get into a huge minefield. However, I can see some benefits in a tabular format for linguistic purposes, where each entry has the common English name, the CBS transliteration, the locally-preferred transliteration, the English Biblical name, the modern Hebrew name, the Biblical Hebrew name, the Israeli Arabic name, and the Palestinian Arabic name (because of the conventions still used by Palestinian refugees). - Gilgamesh 09:30, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

• • I had an idea that something like this would fall out, which is why I floated the idea here. OK, advice taken D'n 22:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

This list is outdated, as is the one at he.wikipedia

Check nl.wikipedia for later developements in Israeli local state. There 71 cities now (up from 70), after two were added, and two were combined (another one was combined with a local council). I have no clue who wrote the Dutch article ;-) gidonb 09:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Note, however, that the German Wikipedia has other information. It claims Elad and Mevasseret are cities. gidonb 09:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty tired now and with a temperature, won't check the entire list for each city, but I saw two changes in the NL article - Daliyat Al-Karmel is supposedly now a city called Daliyat Al-Karmel-Isfiya, and there's another 'union' there (Baka-Jat). I haven't heard about these at all, but they don't seem too likely. But I also don't think the NL writer was just writing at random. Does anyone have evidence that the NL version is correct? Also, El'ad and Mevaseret are definitely not cities unless they were given such a status around 2005. It's possible with Mevaseret, but El'ad seems quite unlikely. -- Ynhockey 15:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Ramallah?!

The list includes Ramallah!! which is not a city in israel (Ramla is), ramallah is a city in the west bank! am i missing something?--Mayz 01:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

No you're not missing anything, I have no idea who added Ramallah to the list but I'm removing it of course. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 08:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Added Arabic names

Added Arabic names of Tira, Yafa, Eylat, Karmel.. (eom). 19:18, 28 January 2006 User:70.225.174.161 IP and timestamp added by gidonb

Thank you! That is a very useful addition to this page! gidonb 16:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I filled in most of the blank slots in the Arabic names colomn. It is not easy to supply an agreed Arabic name for a city in Israel, since the Israeli authorities usually do not supply an official Arabic spelling, and even when they do it is often unaccepted by the Arab population. Jerusalem is the classic example for that. Several things should be pointed out - this list is useless when trying to navigate within Israel. Road signs usually trancribe the Hebrew name using special characters for non-Arabic sounds, a trend which is very uncommon in Arabic press. Hebrew names are sometimes Arabized, especially if the name can be translated, or if it resembles an Arab name or Arabic words. Jewish cities built after 1948 where an Arab village or city previously stood, are sometimes called by their Hebrew name or by their Arabized Hebrew name, and sometimes by their former Arabic name. An example to that is عسقلان/المجدل for Ashkelon. In all cases I used the most widespread forms. I brought two forms if they are both widespread, and I added a name in brackets if it is not widespread, but still worth while mentioning. Two final points - تل الربيع is a somewhat strange translation for the name Tel Aviv, but I don't think it is common enough to populate this table. ج and غ are both used to transcribe the /g/ sound in Hebrew names. This can be a bit tricky because in Arab cities' names they have different values (/γ/ vs. /dzh/). Drork 10:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Israel template

I think the State of Israel navigation box should be removed. While it's relevant to the list, I think it interferes with its flow and formatting more than it helps. It also makes it impossible to add more fields, which could be useful (like year when city status was granted or whatever). -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree - will do now Flymeoutofhere 14:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge

The existence of two separate pages with much of the same information seems needlessly confusing, and I don't see why all sets of data can't be accommodated here. Tewfik^Talk 06:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

You are right, especially as the line between a "locality" and a "city" according to the Israeli law is quite arbitrary. DrorK 07:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The other page was originally created when there was no option to create sortable tables and therefore it was useful, so feel free to merge. In addition to that, I think the alternative spellings on this page which take up a lot of space should be replaced by statistical data, such as immigrants and population growth. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Feel free to edit it mercilessly. Tewfik^Talk 01:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Moved?

I must've missed it, but why was this article moved to List of cities by population in Israel? Not only is this against naming conventions (should be: List of cities in Israel by population), but also the table is sortable so it's not really a list by population (also the default sorting is by district/name). Moreover, its primary goal is to list cities in Israel, and their administrative districts, everything else is marginal. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Bnei Brak

The picture of Bnei Brak is a bit deceiving. It actually depicts a panorama of a larger area. This panorama especially when taken at night, makes it look like a tourist resort while in fact it is a suburb of ultra-orthodox Jews from lower socioeconomic group. DrorK 21:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

This is true, but I had a hard time finding a better free picture. In the interim I'll leave a clarification in the caption. Tewfik^Talk 21:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Pictures on the right and columns

Even though I think the pictures are great and relevant, I can't help thinking that they are unnecessary, mostly because there are many more columns which can be added to the table. And even now, there is overlap on Firefox between the images and the table on anything lower than 1024x768 (or a non-full-sized window on that resolution).

I think the table should have the following columns:

1. Name
2. District
3. CBS Name
4. Hebrew
5. Arabic
6. Area
7. Population (2006)
8. Population (2000)
9. Population (1995) --> important because this is the last actual census made by the CBS.

Other less important columns are:

1. Population density (present in many city lists on Wikiepdia, although IMO not that important because this data is calculable from the area/population statistics)
2. Population (1983) - previous complete census

Also I think that pronunciation sound files (.ogg) should be added for each city. I might record them myself in the coming days.

-- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with any of these except for the images. That seems to be a technical problem which should have a technical solution, and we shouldn't have to remove content like images for it. As a temporary fix, it seems that most column-width is due to one or two long entries, in the case of the last two it is because of the column-titles, so shortening the sum using a <br> would avoid the problem for now. Tewfik^Talk 04:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

How about a compromise: moving the images to the bottom as a gallery. Not only is this widely accepted in Wikipedia, but also it will retain the images in an organized way (allowing us to add an image for each city if we acquire it), while allowing us to add more columns to the table. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:32, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If there's no objection, I'm going to start working on this page again, per my November 25 suggestion. This could easily make it to FL (I've seen much crappier lists pass), there are just a few very small issues to be resolved. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree - good idea--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 20:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Area/jurisdiction

Currently the area of each city is presented in a very awkward way - it's in square kilometers, yet looks like dunams (say, the jurisdiction of Arad is shown as 93.140 km2, not 93.14, and/or 93,140 dunams). I think the areas should be presented in dunams (anyone who doesn't know what a dunam is can click on the link), although if a consensus is reached to keep showing them in km2, then the figures should be rounded somewhat, say to 1 decimal point. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I have been unable to locate the document with all areas together, which is required for the data. I have no problem with presenting it in dunams. Tewfik^Talk 04:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

For the sake that this is an international encyclopedia, either the square Kms should be there,or a note about how to convert. Circeus 04:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Its been thus far left in square km. More importantly, I've found the reference for the bot-harvested area data, and so I'm renominating. Tewfik^Talk 09:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

So, what's the verdict? If no one opposes, I'll round all the numbers to 1 decimal point. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Name of article

I think this should be moved back to List of cities in Israel, per the accepted norm on the English Wikipedia. Naming articles without the word 'list' is a practice accepted on Hebrew Wikipedia, where the admins believe that simply not having the word 'list' in the title would make an article encyclopedic, which otherwise wouldn't be. I think it's ludicrous to accept the Hebrew Wiki's norm.

One good argument for why the article should have 'list' in its title is that it's actually a list (!), and not a content-based article on the cities on Israel.

-- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Very peculiar name change and distancing from WP convention. This article is now the only one in its cat with a unique naming convention. --Shuki (talk) 22:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Israeli cities for the reason for the name change. Basically, it has a unique name because it is a unique situation - there are Israeli cities which are not in Israel, but there are no Swiss cities (for example) which are not in Switzerland. We could change the name back, but then we'd need to remove four cities from the list. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 17:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The discussion is outdated, the dispute was about a different name entirely (I think 'cities in Israel' or something). -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Map strikes me as unclear

The rectangle representing the Tel Aviv area in greater detail is clear, but I cannot tell where the topmost rectangle is drawn from. Perhaps I'm just being dense ...

timbo (talk) 00:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

It's the south of the country. You can tell by the shape. I guess it could be somewhat unclear to someone who has never seen a map of Israel, but I can't think off the top of my head how to clarify it. Adding some sort of symbol, like an arrow, to both frames, could make it even more confusing for some. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 04:17, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Rename to List of cities in Israel and remove settlements in the West Bank

This page should reflect the names of all other pages in the list of cities by country category.

There is no need have the settlements included with the cities that are actually located in Israel - there is already a list of Israeli settlements in the West Bank here untwirl(talk) 19:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The debate already took place. The suggestion is irrelevant anyway, the list is about Israeli cities, not cities in Israel. The article already makes it quite clear what the status of 4 of the cities are, and also has a part about Jerusalem. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 00:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

well, consensus can change. there seems to be a debate forming on other pages as to the appropriateness of calling settlements in the west bank "israeli cities" in wikipedia's neutral voice. the ambiguity of the interpretation of "cities in israel" vs "cities inhabited by israelis" is the main problem here. "israeli-administered cities" would be a title that could accurately and unambiguously describe this list, but i think it is better to conform to the format used on other list of cities pages and only include cities located undisputedly in israel.

this article doesn't seem to have a very active talk page. maybe an rfc would help to get wider community input. untwirl(talk) 03:48, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to open an RfC, but IMO it should wait until the RfC on Modi'in Illit, which unfortunately so far didn't generate any outside interest, is finished. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:25, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I still fail to see the AGF/motive to not describe Israeli localities as such. The four cities Ynhockey mentioned are Israeli, this is undeniable. --Shuki (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Why not rename it to List of cities in Israel and Israeli settlements if you really want to keep the two together? I dont see the relevance in the Modiin Illit RfC, that was about including the illegality of settlements in the lead of the article, not whether or not it should be called an Israeli city. nableezy - 16:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit request from {{subst:CURRENTUSER}}, 9 August 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

Collapsing copied and pasted article.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Jerusalem Tel Aviv-Yafo Haifa Rishon LeZion Ashdod Beersheba Petah Tikva Netanya Holon Bnei Brak Bat Yam Ramat Gan Ashkelon Rehovot Beit Shemesh Kfar Saba The following list of Israeli cities is based on the current index of the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS). Within Israel's system of local government, an urban municipality can be granted a city council by the Israeli Interior Ministry when its population exceeds 20,000. The term "city" does not generally refer to local councils or urban agglomerations, even though a defined city often contains only a small portion of an urban area or metropolitan area's population. List of cities Israel has 14 cities with populations over 100,000, including Jerusalem at over a 500,000, and Tel Aviv, which is considered to be approaching global city status. In all, there are 78 Israeli municipalities granted "city" status by the Ministry of the Interior, the most recent addition being the Arab Israeli settlement of Kafr Qasim. The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area to which Israel has not applied its sovereignty. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Court of Justice, and the International Committee of the Red Cross refer to it as occupied by Israel. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders, and is considered to have de jure annexation under the Jerusalem Law and is not recognized by the international community. The following sortable table lists all Israeli cities by name, district, area, and population, according to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics' 2008 data: Jerusalem File:Tel Aviv night skyline.jpg Tel Aviv Haifa Rishon LeZion Ashdod Beersheba Petah Tikva Netanya Bnei Brak (in the foreground) Bat Yam Ramat Gan Ashkelon Common name District Area (km²) Hebrew Arabic Population (2008) Mayor Acre North 13.533 עכו عكا 56,800 Shimon Lancry Afula North 26.909 עפולה العفولة 37,400 Avi Elkabetz Arad South 93.140 ערד عراد 18,300 Gideon Bar-Lev Ariel Judea & Samaria 14.677 אריאל أريأل 39,700 Ron Nachman Ashdod South 47.242 אשדוד أشدود/إسدود 164,200 Yehiel Lasri Ashkelon South 47.788 אשקלון أسكلون/عسقلان/المجدل 136,400 Benny Vaknin Baqa-Jatt Haifa 16.392 באקה-ג'ת باقة جت 33,200 Yitzhak Veled Bat Yam Tel Aviv 8.167 בת ים بات يام 128,900 Shlomo Lahiani Beersheba South 52.903 באר שבע بئر السبع 247,600 Rubik Danilovich Beit She'an North 7.330 בית שאן بيسان 16,800 Jacky Levi Beit Shemesh Jerusalem 34.259 בית שמש بيت شيمش 68,100 Moshe Abutbul Beitar Illit Judea & Samaria 6.801 ביתר עילית بيتار عيليت 32,700 Meir Rubenstein Bnei Brak Tel Aviv 7.088 בני ברק بني براك 49,300 Ya'akov Asher Dimona South 29.877 דימונה ديمونة 34,700 Meir Cohen Eilat South 84.789 אילת إيلات/أم الرشراش 78,400 Meir Yitzhak Halevi El'ad Center 2.756 אלעד أيلعاد 25,100 Yitzhak Idan Giv'atayim Tel Aviv 3.246 גבעתיים جبعاتايم/جفعاتايم 148,500 Reuven Ben-Shahar Giv'at Shmuel Center 2.579 גבעת שמואל 21,700 Yossi Brodny Hadera Haifa 49.359 חדרה الخضيرة 73,800 Haim Avitan Haifa Haifa 63.666 חיפה حيفا 197,200 Yona Yahav Herzliya Tel Aviv 21.585 הרצליה هرتسليا 36,400 Yael German Hod HaSharon Center 21.585 הוד השרון هود هشارون 46,500 Hai Adiv Holon Tel Aviv 18.927 חולון حولون 133,900 Moti Sasson Jerusalem Jerusalem 125.156 ירושלים أورشليم, القدس 593,600 Nir Barkat Karmiel North 19.188 כרמיאל كرميئيل 45,700 Adi Eldar Kafr Qasim Center 8.745 כפר קאסם كفر قاسم 18,500 Sami Issa Kfar Saba Center 14.169 כפר סבא كفار سابا 86,900 Yehuda Ben-Hemo Kiryat Ata Haifa 16.706 קריית אתא كريات آتا 34,100 Ya'akov Peretz Kiryat Bialik Haifa 8.178 קריית ביאליק كريات بياليك 49,700 Eli Dokursky Kiryat Gat South 16.302 קריית גת كريات جات/كريات غات 37,900 Aviram Dahari Kiryat Malakhi South 4.632 קריית מלאכי كريات ملاخي 28,600 Motti Malka Kiryat Motzkin Haifa 3.778 קריית מוצקין كريات موتسكين 38,700 Haim Zuri Kiryat Ono Tel Aviv 4.112 קריית אונו كريات أونو 50,700 Yossi Nishri Kiryat Shmona North 14.228 קריית שמונה كريات شمونة 47,800 Nissim Malka Kiryat Yam Haifa 4.339 קריית ים كريات يام 36,800 Shmuel Sisso Lod Center 12.226 לוד اللد 67,500 Ilan Harari Ma'ale Adumim Judea & Samaria 49.177 מעלה אדומים معلي أدوميم 33,200 Benny Kashriel Ma'alot-Tarshiha North 6.832 מעלות-תרשיחא معالوت ترشيحا 19,400 Shlomo Bohbot Migdal HaEmek North 7.637 מגדל העמק مجدال هعيمق/مغدال هعيمق 24,900 Eliyahu Barda Modi'in Illit Judea & Samaria 4.746 מודיעין עילית موديعين عيليت 41,800 Ya'akov Gutterman Modi'in-Maccabim-Re'ut Center 50.176 מודיעין-מכבים-רעות موديعين-مكابيم-ريعوت 95,600 Haim Beebas Nahariya North 10.233 נהריה نهاريا 43,600 Jacky Sabag Nazareth North 14.123 נצרת الناصرة 66,400 Ramiz Jaraisy Nazareth Illit North 32.521 נצרת עילית الناصرة العليا 42,700 Shimon Gapso Nesher Haifa 12.790 נשר نيشر 21,700 David Amar Ness Ziona Center 15.579 נס ציונה نيس تسيونا 34,300 Yossi Shvo Netanya Center 28.954 נתניה نتانيا 135,100 Miriam Feirberg Netivot South 5.626 נתיבות نتيبوت/نتيفوت 26,600 Yehiel Zohar Ofakim South 10.273 אופקים أوفاكيم 24,700 Zvika Greengold Or Akiva Haifa 3.539 אור עקיבא أور عكيفا 17,900 Simha Yosipov Or Yehuda Tel Aviv 5.141 אור יהודה أور يهودا 32,200 David Yosef Petah Tikva Center 35.868 פתח תקווה بيتح تكفا 186,900 Yitzhak Ohayon Qalansawe Center 8.417 קלנסווה قلنسوة 18,300 Ra'anana Center 14.878 רעננה رعنانا 46,400 Nahum Hofree Rahat South 19.586 רהט رهط 33,900 Talal al-Krenawi Ramat Gan Tel Aviv 13.229 רמת גן رمات جان/رمات غان 174,300 Zvi Bar Ramat HaSharon Tel Aviv 16.792 רמת השרון رمات هشارون 87,400 Yitzhak Rochberger Ramla Center 11.854 רמלה الرملة 64,500 Yoel Lavi Rehovot Center 23.041 רחובות رحوبوت/رحوفوت 63,300 Rahamim Malul Rishon LeZion Center 58.704 ראשון לציון ريشون لتسيون 183,800 Dov Tzur Rosh HaAyin Center 24.390 ראש העין رأس العين 15,600 Moshe Sinai Safed North 29.248 צפת صفد 38,300 Ilan Shohat Sakhnin North 9.816 סח'נין سخنين 29,600 Mazen Ghnaim Sderot South 4.472 שדרות سديروت 31,200 David Buskila Shaghur (Shagor) North 17.737 שגור الشاغور 22,500 Salih Debbah Shefa-'Amr (Shfar'am) North 19.766 שפרעם شفا عمرو 34,900 Nahed Khazem Tamra North 29.259 טמרה طمرة 27,900 Abu el-Hija Adel Tayibe Center 18.662 טייבה الطيبة 35,400 Hemi Doron Tel Aviv Tel Aviv 51.788 תל אביב تل أبيب يافا 392,500 Ron Huldai Tiberias North 10.872 טבריה طبريا 42,800 Zohar Oved Tira Center 11.894 טירה الطيرة 21,900 Mamoun Abd-El Hay Tirat Carmel Haifa 5.601 טירת כרמל طيرة الكرمل 18,800 Aryeh Tal Umm al-Fahm Haifa 22.253 אום אל-פחם أم الفحم 44,500 Khaled Aghbariyya Yavne Center 10.700 יבנה يبنة 52,400 Zvi Gov-Ari Yehud-Monosson Center 5.014 יהוד-מונוסון يهود مونوسون 26,300 Yossi Ben-David Yokneam North 7.390 יקנעם يوقنعم 18,600 Simon Alfasi

109.186.17.180 (talk) 11:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Salvio ^{Let's talk 'bout it!} 12:24, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect list

that list of cities is not correct, go to Category:Cities in Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.116.231.75 (talk • contribs) 16 March 2011

Incorrect in what way? You will have to be more specific than that. --Muhandes (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

"City"

Indented line

"The term "city" does not generally refer to local councils or urban agglomerations"

If this is the case, what does the term "city" usually refer to in Israel? Seems like a strange sentence and definition to keep hanging, especially when you describe what doesn't generally define the term "city." --Criticalthinker (talk) 05:39, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

You are right, the wording is a bit strange but I currently have no better ideas. Basically "city" is a well-defined concept in Israel. A municipality is either a city or it's not. We even have an article about it. All cities are listed in this article. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:39, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

The page you linked me to seems to say that all municipalities are a city, though. What is this page a list of, then? --Criticalthinker (talk) 06:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

That was just the word in the lede, I probably forgot to fix it when I moved the article. It is now fixed. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:45, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Scope

This article covers cities in Israel, the Golan Heights, and Israeli-administered cited in the West Bank, correct? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 16:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

That seems to be what this article is about so I'll clarify the lead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs) 20:57, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Israeli cities are in Israel. What a junk this article is, from the lead. -DePiep (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I should point out that I amended the lead to reflect the already existing scope. This has been the scope sense 2008. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Nothing personal. It's just that the current opening, in bold, includes non-Israel stuff. Plain Wikipedia wrong. [2] -DePiep (talk) 20:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Tagged the lead for POV [3]: West Bank and Golan are not Israeli. -DePiep (talk) 21:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. The article is about Israeli cities, not Israeli territories. The idea is to list all cities under Israeli administration, regardless of where they are located. If you take issue with the scope of the article that's a different matter (please open a new discussion), but the scope as it stands now is clear and factual, and the article does not express any point of view. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

under Israeli administration you say? Deviation. -DePiep (talk) 23:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the problem, Ynhockey you say. Yhen why are you here in the first place? -DePiep (talk) 00:16, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I can't quite understand what you're saying. Please explain the problem you see with the article. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 07:14, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Occupied areas are not Israeli

Occupied areas are not Israeli. And we at Wikipedia are not to decide on that at all. -DePiep (talk) 22:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The article is about Israeli cities, not Israeli areas/territories. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

So let's get POV out. -DePiep (talk) 23:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I can't quite understand what you're saying. Please explain the problem you see with the article. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 07:15, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

The title is List of Israeli cities, but the lead says list of cities in Israel and Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank. That is a Wikipedia-created definition, so POV (OR). -DePiep (talk) 12:57, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

That's not really a reason to slap a POV tag on a featured list. However, I have addressed your concern to comply with all Wikipedia policies and guidelines, especially WP:NC which was indeed violated in the previous version. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Consequently, non-Israeli cities should be removed from hte page. -DePiep (talk) 22:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

There are no non-Israeli cities on the page. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:30, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I will remove Ariel, Beitar Illit, Ma'ale Adumim, Modi'in Illit then. -DePiep (talk) 15:13, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

If you do that then please go to each article and remove that it's Israeli. But don't forget! You will need to provide a source (in this case as well) that they're not Israeli. Good luck! —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

To source what is not on the page? Actually, they are unsourced now. Which is not surprisingly. -DePiep (talk) 21:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Ynhockey, instead of playing dumb, you could change the lead to actually conform to NPOV by changing located in Israel and Israeli-administered parts of the West Bank to located in Israel and Israeli-occupied parts of the West Bank, and change the paragraph in the body from

The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area to which Israel has not applied its sovereignty. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Court of Justice, and the International Committee of the Red Cross refer to it as occupied by Israel. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders, and is considered to have de jure annexation under the Jerusalem Law and is not recognized by the international community.

to

The list includes four cities in the West Bank, an area held under Israeli occupation. Under international law, the West Bank is considered to be, de jure, occupied Palestinian territory. The area and population of Jerusalem includes that of East Jerusalem which is incorporated within its municipal borders. The international community has not recognized the annexation of East Jerusalem and considers it occupied Palestinian territory.

Then you might have cause to remove the NPOV tag. As it is, the article diminishes super-majority views in favor of fring-sized minority ones. nableezy - 20:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Already I have removed the "West Bank" extension from the lead. First, that is not the title, second, the es falsely suggested that was a talkpage outcome (either this or reinstall the POV tag, because there clearly is no outcome here yet). -DePiep (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Nableezy, what you just wrote may warrant a discussion, but it has nothing to do with DePiep's objection. They are two different things entirely. Please open a new discussion if you have other concerns. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:55, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

It would satisfy DePiep's objection. The title is sufficiently ambiguous that settlements could be included, but the problem that I see is the prose. nableezy - 18:03, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The scope of the list should be made clear in the lead, i.e. that the list contains Israeli settlements that are outside Israeli sovereign territory but under Israeli administration. Dlv999 (talk) 11:06, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as an Israeli City

Israel is not internationally recognized as a city that belongs to Israel. I think we should consider removing it for accuracy.

--Raa3 —Preceding comment was added at 02:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Some queries

• an urban municipality can be granted a city council by the Israeli Interior Ministry when its population exceeds 20,000

This statement in the lead is supported by this reference [4]. But the cited source does not mention the word "city" or city council. It discusses Municipalities which it says can "administer urban towns, generally with a population of over 20,000." the term municipality is not synonymous with city (see for instance mu·nic·i·pal·i·ty  : a city, town, or district enjoying some degree of local self-government). So unless I am missing something the source does not support the statement.

• The following sortable table lists all Israeli cities by name, district, area, and population, according to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics' 2009 census:

This statement (and presumably the following table) is supported by this reference. [5] But the source is not a list of "Israeli cities", it is a list of "POPULATION(1) OF LOCALITIES NUMBERING ABOVE 2,000 RESIDENTS". The source does not mention the word city nor define any of the listed localities as "Israeli cities". So again, unless I am missing something, the source does not support the statement or the table.

• What specific sources are being used to support the inclusion of Israeli settlements on a list of "Israeli cities"? Dlv999 (talk) 10:59, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dlv999. Regarding the first question, maybe it's just not the best source to use. The source's underlying statement is correct, but there is a translation incompatibility.

Regarding the second question, the source you refer to is only for the actual statistics, not what is a city. For that you need to peruse the full list of localities by CBS:

http://www.cbs.gov.il/ishuvim/ishuv2011/bycode.xls – you need to look at the column Municipal Status (מעמד מוניציפלי). PDF version with the relevant data: http://www.cbs.gov.il/ishuvim/reshimalefimaamadmuni.pdf

And here is the key/index: http://www.cbs.gov.il/ishuvim/ishuv2011/index2011.xls . Again, click on Municipal Status (מעמד מוניציפלי) to get an explanation of what each number means. It's actually a very small table: 00 is city (עירייה), 99 is local council (מועצה מקומית), the regional councils each have their own number and some places don't have a municipal status (so no number at all).

All of the above data is linked to from this central page: http://www.cbs.gov.il/ishuvim/ishuvim_main.htm

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 15:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay thanks for the information, I had a quick look. I haven't gone through it all but code 00(עירייה) is translated to "Municipality" by google translate [6] and Morfix dictionary [7]. This seems to be consistent with Ministry of Foreign Affairs translation [8] (cite note 1 in the article) which discusses "municipalities" but not cities.

There is also the question remaining what source are we using to categorize the settlements in the West Bank as "Israeli cities". I think the CBS lists are enough to show they are Israeli administered (which I don't think anyone would dispute). The question is whether they should be described as "Israeli cities". I think it is an important question; apart from East Jerusalem, Israel makes no claims to have annexed any land in the West Bank.

My impression of the sourcing is that a more accurate description of the list would be List of Israeli administered municipalities. Dlv999 (talk) 16:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I think that's because in English (as a language) there is no concept of "city council", and it depends on the country, so you can't translate it in any other way. For example, in the US you can use "City Hall" to refer to the government of a city. In the UK however (as far as I know), City Hall can only mean the building where the city government is located. This might actually be why the MoF also uses this word, since it's a direct translation.

The Hebrew word Iriya (עיריה), however, is a purely Israeli term and refers specifically to cities, as you will find in any Hebrew language dictionary or reference (having "city" (עיר) in the word also gives it away ;) ). For instance, the Even Shoshan Dictionary (the most prominent Hebrew dictionary), refers to the word as (my translation):

"1.Authority of a city, which is a legal entity, according to the City Order. Its residents elect the city council and the head of the city to manage the city's affairs.

"2. [in day-to-day usage] The city council and its institutions".

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how any of this would concatenate OR. See "Jerusalem, Israel"; "Ariel, Israel"; "Beitar Illit, Israel"; "Ma'ale Adumim, Israel"; "Modi'in Illit, Israel"; and saying "Ariel, Israel" is a much stronger statement then including these cities on a list that explicitly says it includes "Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank". Also with the expedition of Jerusalem the overwhelming majority of RS would define those cites as Israeli settlements. I think asking about OR is the wrong question, the question should be what should the scope of this list be? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:25, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

you need to look through your google hits to see if there are any WP:RELIABLE SOURCES that support the point you are trying to make- if so cite the RS themselves. I looked through the first 5 pages of Ariel hits and couldn't find anything. If you want to know how RS treat this issue see e.g. The BBC issuing a retraction and apology for referring to Ariel as "an Israeli city". [9] Dlv999 (talk) 18:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

saying "Ariel, Israel" is a much stronger statement - sure, but that does not make it a correct statement. These cities are not in Israel.

As for the scope of the list: either the list has only the Israeli cities (as per the title), or it can add West Bank cities with the right qualification (as a sort of minor extension to the list). But WP cannot claim that these WB cities are Israeli, because they are not in real life. That would be OR. If one tries to argue: "but if they are on this list, so they are in the title by definition", we must change the title into the longer, more precise one. The fact that the title is shortened into a more simple one is no argument to conclude that these cities are Israeli (it would introduce circular reasoning). I conclude: my preference is to let these external cities stay in the list with a clear qualification. Other options I mentioned (throw them out to make the title more correct, or change the title into more correct longer one) could be acceptable. But not acceptable is any suggestion that they are Israeli. -DePiep (talk) 13:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The whole point of the title being "Israeli cities" instead of "cities in Israel" was to include cities that weren't in Israel proper. If you want to change that you should have the article moved back to "cities in Israel" so that the lead will say "list of cities in Israel and Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank". The current lead says "list of Israeli cities and Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank" and implies that Israeli settlements are not Israeli, which is itself OR. This was made a featured list containing the "OR" that Israeli settlements are Israeli, and remained in that state for five years, unitl March 13. To say that a featured list contains such a galing peace of OR for five years, and to say that Israeli settlements are not Israeli, are both extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:33, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

What source are you relying upon for the claim that Israeli settlements are "Israeli cities"? I have already provided you with a link describing how an international news media source apologized for making the error of describing Ariel as "an Israeli city".

I think you should consider the difference between the meaning of saying Ariel is an Israeli settlement and the meaning of saying that Ariel is an Israeli city. The general understanding of "Israeli settlement" is an Israeli colony, that is a population of Israelis living outside the borders of Israel. The common understanding of the term Israeli city is a city in Israel. The OR in the article is not to say that the list includes Israeli settlements in the West Bank, it is the description of the West Bank settlements as "Israeli cities". Dlv999 (talk) 11:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

What is your source that Israeli settlements are not Israeli cities (the articles current implication). The "OR" that the Israeli settlements which are cities are Israeli cities has existed for five years, ever sense this was made a featured list. Your opinion is contrary to very long-standing conciseness. "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale". No one from the original featured list dusiction was invited here before you defined "Israeli cities" as "cities in Israel", nor was there any other attempt, such as an RFC, to invite broader participation. The community would not have made this a featured list if they felt it contained such a glaring peace of OR. The consensus of two editors, which isn't a consensus because it was opposed by two other editors, cannot override that community consensus on a wider scale. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 12:33, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Absense of explicit consensus is not a proof of consensus. A statement staying for five year does not make it a correct statement. One does not have to prove that a settlement is not an Israeli city. Mexico is not an Israeli city either. The opposite is to be proven still. "Israeli city" is unambiguous as any other "X city". There is no need to change semantics into an exception, whether by local consensus or not. -DePiep (talk) 12:50, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I already cited my source. See my comments of 18:41, 19 March 2013. also it might be worth you having a look at the related discussion here. the issue is very similar, because the same primary source Israeli government document was being used for the "municipality of Israel" claim as is being used in this article for the "Israeli city" claim. The document essentially categorizes Israeli population centres and population centres in the West Bank under Israeli administration by municipal status. The Israeli word "עיריי" is variously translated as "city council", "city" and "municipality", essentially it is a designated municipal status that has implications for how the population centre is administered. The document is enough to show that all the population centres are administered by Israel, but saying that the settlements are "Israeli cities" because they are listed on this document is OR. I imagine the reason it went without challenge is because the relevant documents are all in Hebrew so the number of people who could look into the sourcing is limited. Dlv999 (talk) 14:40, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm too tired to respond to most of those points right now, but to respond to just one of them, the source doesn't imply that is is incorrect to call Ariel an Israeli city, merely that is is controversial, at least among certain circles. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "incorrect". In Wikipedia we represent what reliable sources sources say. The BBC is a significant RS, being an international news media source. It issued a retraction for mistakenly referring to Ariel as an "Israeli city" which is good evidence as to how we should be treating the issue. As far as I can tell no evidence has thus been given supporting the application of the "Israeli city" claim to the settlements in the West Bank. Dlv999 (talk) 15:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Now that I'm back from my semi-wikibreack, We already discussed this. Conciseness was that there was nothing wrong with calling Israeli settlement Israeli cities, at least in this context, and that consensus has stood for five years. That source doesn't say that Ariel isn't an Israeli city (i.e. that is is incorrect to call Ariel an Israeli city), it simply said that the BBC called it one, provoked controversy, so apologized and agreed not to call it an Israeli city. Not calling Ariel an Israeli city is not the same thing as saying it isn't Israeli city, it's can be just not taking a position either way. Do you have any source that Ariel isn't an Israeli city.

As for "One does not have to prove that a settlement is not an Israeli city" you do if the article is going to say "The following list of Israeli cities and Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank". I could just as easily say "One does not have to prove that a settlement is an Israeli city" As for sources, I'm not sure how good they are but here are two: [10] [11]

As for why this has not been challenged before, more likely (IMO) because, fist of all as you pointed out  :"עיריי" is variously translated as "city council", "city" and "municipality"" but this is not a list of all Israeli municipalities (which would include Local councils and Regional councils), or of city councils, just the cities themselves. Secondly because most people probably wouldn't dispute that Israeli settlements which are large enough to be cities can be considered Israeli cities.

Sense I object to Dlv999's change to the first sentence, and DePib objects to mine, I'll revert back to the status qou of no change to the lead sentence for now. However I will start an RFC below, to have the community take a second look this article, and in peculator it's use of the term "Israeli city" in light of the concerns you two have, and if the original Featured list discussion was in error. All concerns related to the first sentence were based on OR, so we can decide what, if any changes should be made to that after, or as part of, the RFC. We still have the list section which stats that "The list includes four Israeli settlements in the West Bank". Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Conciseness was that there was nothing wrong with calling Israeli settlement Israeli cities, at least in this context, and that consensus has stood for five years. That source doesn't say that Ariel isn't an Israeli city (i.e. that is is incorrect to call Ariel an Israeli city): Simply wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Totally wrong. -DePiep (talk) 22:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Are Israeli settlements Israeli cities?

Is this articles inclusion of Israeli settlements (with city status) as "Israeli cities" in this context original research, or otherwise problematic?

For some background: This was make a featured list, and this was how the article looked afterwards. During the deduction the article was renamed from the standered "List of cities in X" ("List of cities in Israel" in this case) to it's current title "List of Israeli cities" to reflect the scope which included "Israeli cites" which weren't in Israel-proper. My understanding is that consensus was that including these Israeli settlements "Israeli cities" in this context is fine.

Dlv999 and DePiep are concerned that calling these settlements "Israeli cities" is original research. Certainly the community should not have made this a featured list if it contained such a glaring peace of OR, so was the featured list discussion mistaken, is this OR. To clarify, Dlv999 and DePiep (unless I'm mistaken) do not dispute the settlements inclusion on this list per se, just the implication that they are "Israeli cities".

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the dispute comes down to the following question: Can the praise "Israeli cities" be used to include Israeli settlements, or does "Israeli cities" have the exact same meaning as "cities in Israel".

I should point out that the only reason the article was moved was because of the difference in meaning between the two, that "Israeli cities" can be used to include Israeli settlements. If "Israeli cities" have the exact same meaning as "cities in Israel" then there is no reason not to move the page back to "List of cities in "Israel" to match every other List of cities article such as List of cities in the United States and List of cities in Mexico.

I'll invite the people from the featured list discussion and related discussions on this page to this RFC. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I had a look back at the Featured list discussion and I see the proposal made by opentopbus to rename the article:

• "Rename to "List of Israeli cities" rather than "List of cities in Israel", in order to define the cities by what rather than where they are. A city which is in the West Bank is ipso facto not in Israel, just as the British embassy in Paris is not "in" Britain, even though it might be considered to be British territory."

I believe this is based on faulty logic. The common understanding of the term "Israeli city" is a city in Israel, just as the common understanding of "British city" is city in Britain. The analogy of embassy falls down because the common understanding of an embassy is a diplomatic mission in another country. Using the term "British embassy" infers that the embassy is, by definition, not in Britain, but the opposite is true when using the term "British city", which infers the city is in Britain.

In this instance we are talking about four population centers in the West Bank that are overwhelmingly described in RS as "Israeli settlements" not "Israeli cities". The term "Israeli settlement" means Israeli colony, that is to say a population of Israelis living outside the borders of Israel, while the term "Israeli city" suggests a city in Israel.

I am not suggesting any major surgery to the article here, just a simple clarification in the lead that the list contains Israeli administered cities in the West Bank. This is already discussed in the main body of the article so stating it in the lead would be consistent with WP:LEAD. Dlv999 (talk) 21:17, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

• Here's a source. The The Times of Israel calls Ariel " one of the largest Israeli cities in the West Bank" Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:15, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Firstly I think you will find sources using this kind of language will be in the minority, if not fringe minority. Secondly the first sentence of the article describes it as "settlement city of Ariel" and your quote clarifies that it is in the "West Bank". I'm not saying we should not put Ariel on the list all I am saying is that we should be precise and accurate about what the list is in the lead. Dlv999 (talk) 22:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree, we should precise and accurate about what the list is in the lead. You are correct that Ariel is a settlement and in the West Bank, but unless you're using that to argue that the lead should be precise (which I agree with) I don't see your point. Nobody here is disputing that Ariel is a settlement and is in the West Bank.

The NY Times calls Ariel "the West Bank Israeli city of Ariel", so I think that means that calling Ariel an "Israeli city" is not OR.

To continue the discussion on my talk page, I still don't see why you support "The following is a list of cities in Israel and Israeli administered cities in the West Bank [...]", but oppose "The following list of Israeli cities, in this context defined as cities in Israel and Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank [...]", but what would you think of "The following list of Israeli cities contains cities in Israel and Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank"?. Maybe use the word "lists" instead of "contains". I think Ynhockey's concern was that the title itself wasn't in the lead. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

WorldTribune.com also calls Ariel "the Israeli city of Ariel". Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Ynhockey reverted this version, and said it violated WP:NC, but I don't see how it did. NC doesn't say much about the title must appear in the lead.Wikipedia:Lead_section#First_sentence says "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence. However, if the article title is merely descriptive—such as Electrical characteristics of dynamic loudspeakers—the title does not need to appear verbatim in the main text.". I'd say that this is a case where the title is merely descriptive, so Dlv999's proposal of "The following is a list of cities in Israel and Israeli administered cities in the West Bank [...]" looks good to me. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:01, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Here's another one Arutz Sheva. It says "Israeli cities in Judea and Samaria" but "Judea and Samaria" is synonymous with "West Bank". Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:49, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Arutz Sheva is the settler news agency. You are talking about a very parochial point of view. Dlv999 (talk) 22:55, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, probably a bad example. The "Judea and Samaria" should have been a dead giveaway. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I came here on seeing the RFC and haven't previously seen this article. It seems to me that the text is clearly written to reflect the issues, so congratulations to all on that. The problem is how to summarise the content in a title. "List of cities in Israel" would be consistent with other "List of cities in..." articles, but does not work as some of the cities are not in Israel (at least as far as many RS are concerned). I see the rationale behind "List of Israeli cities", but I also see it might still be taken to imply something contentious. Would "List of cities in Israel and Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank", the phrase used in the lede, be too unwieldy? That would be my suggestion. Bondegezou (talk) 16:03, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I thint tyhat the NY Times's calling Ariel "the West Bank Israeli city of Ariel", and the WorldTribune.com also calling Ariel "the Israeli city of Ariel" clearly establishes that "Israeli cities" is not OR. The lead should clearly define what the list is (and I support Dlv999's idea for the lead) so contentious implications are not a problem. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:58, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, even if the entire world were to reorganize the Palestinian territories as being part of Israel, the title "List of cities in Israel" would still not work, because PNA-administered cities such as Jericho are beyond the scope of this list. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:28, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I can't say I'm happy with "the most recent addition being the Arab Israeli settlement of Kafr Qasim", particularly as the text goes on "The list includes four Israeli settlements in the West Bank..." under the heading "List". Why is Kafr Qasim called an "Arab Israeli settlement"? Land swaps? Ajnem (talk) 08:30, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Kafr Qasim is in the Central District, not the West Bank. It's not a settlement. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Precisely. That's why it imo shouldn't be called an "Arab Israeli settlement", as it is called in the article, don't you agree? Ajnem (talk) 07:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Ajnem, I have amended the article. Dlv999 (talk) 07:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

My take on this is that they shouldn't be listed as Israeli cities. It's not Wikipedia's job to make political decisions implicit in that. In effect, rhetorically, that's like calling the West Bank part of Israel. Not for us to say. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment Even if we grant that the settlements are illegal under international law, that doesn't prevent them from being cities. Have we considered having a section called "Israeli settlements" and put them there? Or is that not a sufficient compromise?TippyGoomba (talk) 07:07, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

That makes sense. Or perhaps, just simply within a separate category "beyond the 1967 borders." Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 20:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

TippyGoomba/Figureofnine We already have such a category: The West Bank cities are already marked as being in the West Bank, as the West Bank is one of the districts.

Figureofnine, those cities inclusion on this list doesn't support the point of view that WB is part of Israel, both because of paragraph #3 ("The list includes four ...") and if we wanted to show that WB was part of Israel, we'd list every West Bank incorporated city, not just the settlements.

TippyGoomba, even if it were the opinion of everyone in this discussion that the west bank was part of Israel, it wouldn't matter. The world says the West Bank isn't part of Israel, so Wikipedia says the West Bank isn't part of Israel, regardless of whatever our personal opinions are. That's the way WP:NPOV works. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:56, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment - I don't think the article can include cities, or rather Israeli settlements to use the common name, with city status beyond the green line and be in Category:Cities in Israel and Category:Lists of populated places in Israel. Those contradictions need to be addressed somehow. The simplest solution would probably be to remove the settlements from this article given that there is an article List of Israeli settlements with city status in the West Bank. The alternative of removing those categories or renaming them to something less specific like Category:Cities and Israeli settlements with city status in Israel and the West Bank and Category:Lists of populated places in Israel and the West Bank seems less than ideal. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:19, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Proposal is common sense, most obvious, and without errors. -DePiep (talk) 07:28, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. Simpler and better: Israeli cities = cities in Israel. West-Bank cities = cities in the West Bank. Congruent with all other cities' listings. No reason to make an exception for Israeli cities (unless POV).

Use Category:Cities in Israel and Category:Cities in the West Bank. One can specify those special regime ("Jews only" or so) cities in the details, not in the fact of its location.

Citing newspapers that are saying "the Israeli city of Ariel" is not RS, because that is an opinion by that paper. In other words: a source with a POV. The reliability of a RS newspaper is in the facts reported, not its chosen POV. -DePiep (talk) 08:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree, but in practice I think implementing it would probably require an RfC that properly sampled the Wikipedia community, like the Jerusalem RfC, rather than a small subset. Unfortunately it just doesn't seem to be possible to implement policy in WP:ARBPIA on these kind of issues without a decent sample size. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:38, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Lists (and subcategories) don't always 100% of their entries matching up with their categories; it's very common and perfectly acceptable for an list or sub-category that's only (say) a 95% match to be in a category. As for the "exception" argument, there's hardly no reason to make an exception: Among other reasons, List of cities administered by the Palestinian National Authority also has an unusual title, and excludes the settlements. An for the common name thing, an Israeli settlement is not the same thing as a city. The overwhelming majority of settlements are not incorporated cities; they're different terms with different meanings, so one is not the common name relative to the other.

Those newspaper articles are not editorial peaces, so there's no reason to treat them as mere opinion. More impotently, arguing over weather Israeli settlements that are also cities can be called as "Israeli cities" is pure semanticists, not a factual dispute, and we already have RS that the term can be used that way (not that it always is, but it can be). "Israeli cities" is just the title anyway, there's no reason that phrase needs to be in the lead itself. The lead could be "This list of cities in Israel and Israeli settlements with incorporated city status in the West Bank ...", or if that's too wordy "This list of cities in Israel and Israeli-administered cities in the West Bank ...". Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

EHC, I find these argumentations just stretching margins into full-fledged incorporations. It is not a grey area, the distinction is clear. Any Israeli claim (even in wording) can be addressed in some appropriate article section, but not in this primary listing nor in its lead. -DePiep (talk) 12:42, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Just for the record, what is the rationale for including two separate groups of things in one list. List of cities in Israel (i.e Israeli cities) and list of Israeli colonies in the West Bank with city status are two separate groups. Why is such an effort being made to fudge everything so they can be included in one list? Dlv999 (talk) 05:01, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think miscategorization can reasonably be described as perfectly acceptable. It's a simple error. It's also unacceptable given the contentious nature of the topic. Let's be honest here, most articles in ARBPIA bare the scars of nationalism. This is one of them.

• Is it perfectly acceptable to categorize the articles about the 4 locations across the green line using '...in Israel' categories ? I would say no. They are currently categorized as Cities in the West Bank.
• Is it perfectly acceptable to categorize the List of Israeli settlements with city status in the West Bank using '...in Israel' categories ? I would say no. It is currently categorized as Cities in the West Bank although it could probably be in a better category.
• At what point does it become perfectly acceptable to categorize a list that contains members that are not individually members of '...in Israel' sets because they are not in Israel, as if all members of the list are members of '...in Israel' sets. Forget about the conflict and disputes over microgeography, this miscategorization seems to go against something far more important than that, basic set theory. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Well put. This is an encyclopedia. This anomaly is makes WP looking rediculous. -DePiep (talk) 12:45, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

City status

The introduction says city status means a population of more than 20,000, but the list includes several cities that are smaller. The cited source says the following: "The law defines three types of local authorities: municipalities, local councils and regional councils. Municipalities administer urban towns, generally with a population of over 20,000." I imagine this means that some smaller towns are exceptionally granted city status, but some clarity would be nice. Lesgles (talk) 01:22, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, there is no legal minimum for city status, but it should be mentioned that there is always a discrepancy between interior ministry data and CBS data, and the ministry's population for a city is always higher than the CBS data. Again as far as I know, the cities with less than 20,000 people according to CBS have at least 20,000 people according to the interior ministry. I do not have a source for this. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:44, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

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WP:Featured list removal candidates/List of Israeli cities/archive1

talkpage references

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RfC. To what extent should the article present the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area

I would mainly like to ask about the presentation in the article about the possible presentation of content as in the article Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area.

I have recently submitted an RM from the title List of Israeli cities to List of cities in Israel contains with the suggestion that reference to East Jerusalem be removed from the article and that reference to Cities in the West Bank that were developed as Israeli settlements should be accounted for in the article with that name.

At present, despite a recent history in which East Jerusalem and West Jerusalem have been separated by clear national border, the article presents Jerusalem as a single unit while the areas in the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area are presented as a large number of conjoined cities.

Jerusalem

Tel Aviv-Yafo

Haifa

Rishon LeZion

Ashdod

Beersheba

Petah Tikva

Netanya

Holon

Bnei Brak

Bat Yam

Ramat Gan

Ashkelon

Rehovot

Beit Shemesh

Kfar Saba

At present the article presents a template image as shown on the right named "Israel cities labled map" and, although the settlements are not included on the map, I think it violates NPOV as it presents an indication of East Jerusalem as Israeli territory. It also gives some indication of the close relationship between the areas surrounding the centre of Tel Aviv which are otherwise well illustrated by google maps which seems to also be well illustrated when clicking to "earth" view. I am curious to know whether an influence in the subdivisions has been to present Jerusalem as being the largest "urban location" in Israel while it seems to me that this situation does not directly reflect either political or geographic realities. Israel has not chosen to present the Jaffa area, which was described as part of the proposed "Arab State" in the UN partition plan, as a separate entity but has chosen to declare areas such as Holon, where I used to live, as being cities.

Given the above, to what extent can / should the article reflect the size of the whole Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area in its article content?

GregKaye 17:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

As for Jerusalem, the City Line (Jerusalem) existed for only 19 years, from 1948 to 1967, and that "national border" ceased to exist nearly 48 years ago. Jerusalem is a de facto united city and people travel pretty much freely about the city without the impediments of old fences and border crossings. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:35, 2 March 2015 (UTC)