Talk:List of crossings of the Hudson River

Construction Dates

Any chance the construction dates could be added? It would be helpful for understanding the development of the crosses, as well as its current condition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zfish118 (talk • contribs) 06:41, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Column added. You can populate it. - Denimadept (talk) 07:56, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Oooooh, I just couldn't help myself. I've populated the column from local articles and Structurae. There's a number of bridge in that list which are begging for articles. Plenty of info for them on Structurae, to start. - Denimadept (talk) 08:30, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

If you want more, you'll have to find other sources. And it'd help if some of the unnamed bridges could be better specified. You'll probably want to talk to some appropriate department with New York State for such details, as well as further "built" information. - Denimadept (talk) 08:34, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Was there a pre-Holland-Tunnel tunnel project?

I just stumbled over an article in a german magazine from january 1910 which states that in 1908 the first tunnel under the hudson river was completed and used for electric tram cars. length: 3 miles. It also says that the construction process reaches back to 1880 when it was stopped due to a water leakage which killed 20 workers for "almost a decade". The article states that the success of the 1908 tunnel inspired the new york authorities to build a "tunnel network" below the river, 20 miles in total, and that already 8,000 workers had started digging... Since the magazine is a non-ficional and quite reliable publication I wonder what I'm missing in this list an in the new york tunnel articles? --Maximilian Schönherr (talk) 16:04, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Beginning of the Hudson for List of fixed crossings of the Hudson River

Should the list of fixed crossings of the Hudson River state that its source is Lake Tear of the Clouds, or that its beginning is at Henderson Lake? Cstaffa (talk) 01:18, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

From Hudson River,

The river itself officially begins in Henderson Lake in Newcomb, New York.

In order to list the crossings of the Hudson, one has to follow the watercourse designated the Hudson. Going upstream, this leads to and ends at Henderson Lake. The highest source, Lake Tear of the Clouds, feeds into the Hudson via a tributary, the Opalescent River, which connects to the Hudson some miles below its beginning. The highest source is not the beginning of the designated watercourse.

If you agree, please restore my last edit to List of fixed crossings of the Hudson River. --Cstaffa (talk) 04:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Check out, as I said in my comment, Hudson River. It says the source is Lake Tear of the Clouds. - Denimadept (talk) 04:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I see that. I'm arguing that that highest source is not relevant here. What is relevant is the river's beginning, which is what my edit addressed. Please consider the argument. --Cstaffa (talk) 10:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

You're making it so the two articles would not agree. It's either one or the other. - Denimadept (talk) 15:14, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

You are not acknowledging that 1) The Hudson River article states that the river begins at Henderson Lake, nor 2) the beginning of the river and its highest source are different entities. I get the impression that you are not debating in good faith. --Cstaffa (talk) 16:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The Hudson River article says

          The highest official source is at Lake Tear of the Clouds,
          on the slopes of Mount Marcy in the Adirondack Mountains.
          The river itself officially begins in Henderson Lake in
          Newcomb, New York.

So maybe the list article should say the same. It says they're both "official", though neither is cited. "Official" is qualified in the first sentence, but not in the second one. I have no dog in this fight, as I didn't write either statement, though I've made heavy modifications to the list article. If the proper source is Henderson Lake, use it. In that case, the Hudson River article shouldn't mention Lake Tear of the Clouds at all, unless some source(s) list it as the source. Sounds like another river, which feeds into the Hudson, starts there.

I note that you've been doing this longer than I have, so I'll chop out the stuff I put here, thinking you were a newbie.  :-> No offense intended.

I reverted your change to the list article because it didn't agree with the river article. If you'd changed both to agree, and especially if you'd included identical citations in both, I'd have been much less likely to do that. I'm sorry that I didn't ask you on your talk page before reverting. My bad. - Denimadept (talk) 06:56, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

One problem here is there's no authority with the power to say what a river's "official" source is. The closest thing we have to that in the US is the USGS, which doesn't really have "official authority" but is often treated as if it had de facto authority. The USGS's GNIS info about the Hudson (U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Hudson River) says simply that its source is 44°5′28″N 74°3′21″W, which is Henderson Lake. The Hudson River page claims an "official source" at Lake Tear of the Clouds, but without a citation of any kind. Personally, I find this highly dubious and don't believe it. Certainly this is not the "official source" as there is no authority with the power to say so. It may be that Lake Tear of the Clouds is the most distant source from the mouth of the Hudson, but looking at topo maps (linked from the GNIS page above), the Opalescent River's source seems longer than Feldspar Brook to Lake Tear of the Clouds. In any case, without a good citation none of this carries any weight. I'll put a citation needed tag on the Hudson River page. If nothing else the Hudson River page's geobox should not say the source is Lake Tear of the Clouds, as that is the source of Feldspar Brook, not the Hudson River. Compare the Tennessee River page, which says its source is the confluence of the French Broad River and the Holston River, even though there are numerous very long headwater streams far above that confluence. Another example, the Mississippi River famously starts at Lake Itasca, despite the fact that there are streams flowing into Lake Itasca, such as Nicollet Creek. The Mississippi River page simply says Lake Itasca is the source, while the Lake Itasca page explains how, if you really want to be precise, Little Elk Lake is the farthest headwater source. The Hudson River page could do something similar—say the source is Henderson Lake, but explain somewhere that there are tributaries to Henderson Lake. If a source can be found that tells us which headwater stream is the most distant, that could certainly be mentioned. As it is there's nothing backing up the claim of Lake Tear of the Clouds, even on the Lake Tear of the Clouds page. In fact the text on that page seems to imply that Lake Tear of the Clouds is the "highest" source—as in altitude, not distance. And like I said before, topo maps make it look like the source of the Opalescent River is longer. Pfly (talk) 10:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I note that Henderson Lake (New York) also claims there are "official sources" above the lake, again without citations. This should be challenged too. Pfly (talk) 10:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

There are (at least) two differing interpretations of the term "source". See Mississippi_River#cite_note-0, also see River source#Definition. This leads to (at least) two different identifications of the "source" of the Hudson. One is the confluence of Calamity Brook and the outflow from Henderson Lake, where the name Hudson River first appears on the map. This is what appears in the GNIS record. The other "source" according to the "most distant headwater source" definition must be some point upstream of that, which may be Lake Tear of the Clouds. Another claim for the "source" of the Hudson is Henderson Lake itself, as at the article Mount Marshall. My point was that "sources" other than the point where the name Hudson River first appears should be irrelevant for this list of bridges. For instance, a hypothetical bridge over Calamity Brook should not qualify as a bridge over the Hudson. Denimadept initially objected that there should be one "source" of the Hudson and that it should be consistent across articles. My edit avoided the term "source" and instead said the "beginning" is at Henderson Lake, as in the article Hudson River, but Denimadept still objected to not mentioning Lake Tear of the Clouds. --Cstaffa (talk) 22:46, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

This may be the source of the Lake Tear of the Clouds things, at least it's cited on the Henderson Lake page, [1]. However it says nothing about "official". Also it claims a "geographer's dictum" that a river's source is the highest body of water feeding into it"—highest as in altitude, not distance. This is simply false. There is no such "dictum". There may be one about the "most distant" source (as the Missouri River page takes pains to talk about), but certainly not highest in elevation. If that was the case then the source of the Columbia River would probably be Mount Rainier—perhaps the Ohanapecosh River. The idea is absurd. Pfly (talk) 11:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I note that the USGS's GNIS coordinates, 44°5′28″N 74°3′21″W, are not exactly at Henderson Lake, but rather at a confluence of the lake's outflow and Calamity Brook. If this is taken as the start of the river, then the last pedestrian bridge on the list at 44°05′31″N 74°03′28″W should not be included as it is upstream towards Henderson Lake.

The source noted above, [2], also says that 'the name Hudson River disappears' on the USGS topo map at the confluence downstream of Henderson Lake.

The upstream progression noted in the source, along Calamity Brook, the Opalescent River, and Feldspar Brook to Lake Tear of the Clouds, does appear to be valid. The body of water marked Flowed Lands on the relevant USGS topo map at 44°6′49″N 73°59′33″W has two outflows, one is the lower Opalescent River and the other forms Calamity Brook. I had incorrectly assumed that to reach Lake Tear of the Clouds by going upstream, one would have to turn off the Hudson River and go up the Opalescent River at their junction at 44°1′7″N 74°3′11″W. Thus I assumed that if one listed the fixed crossings of the Hudson 'to its source at Lake Tear of the Clouds', one would bypass the upper stretch of the Hudson between that junction and Henderson Lake, which to me seemed a monstrous error. Mea culpa. --Cstaffa (talk) 14:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth Google maps labels that short stretch flowing out of Henderson Lake to the Calamity Brook confluence as Indian Pass Brook and GNIS backs that up. USGS topo maps don't label that stretch at all. Kmusser (talk) 14:46, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I can't agree that GNIS backs that up. GNIS lists the source of Indian Pass Brook (ID 953682) as 44°08′18″N 74°01′47″W, several miles to the north-northeast. --Cstaffa (talk) 18:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

That's the wrong Indian Pass Brook, there are two of them, the coords you're citing are for GNIS feature ID 953683, 953682 is the one you want which has 44°05′28″N 74°03′19″W. Kmusser (talk) 18:40, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

No, 44°05′28″N 74°03′19″W is the mouth of the 953682. The source is as I specified. See GNIS. Yet this does support labeling the stream flowing from Henderson Lake as Indian Pass Brook, since as I now see, the USGS map Mount Adams, NY (2010) shows that Indian Pass Brook is the main inflow into Henderson Lake at its north end. This must mean that Indian Pass Brook is continuous through the lake, which I didn't expect. Again, mea culpa. I shouldn't try to rely so much on Bing Maps. --Cstaffa (talk) 21:21, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction, I hadn't even considered the idea that the brook would go through the lake, that is really odd. Looks like you and Pfly have it sorted out now though. Kmusser (talk) 13:35, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

To summarize what we have according to GNIS and USGS topo maps, Indian Pass Brook flows into Henderson Lake at its north end and out its arm that points northeast toward Calamity Brook. It and Calamity Brook both end in the vicinity (plus or minus 100 feet) of 44°05′28″N 74°03′20″W, and the Hudson River starts there. --Cstaffa (talk) 21:21, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow, how confusing this all is. I was also confused looking at topo maps about which stream flowed which way, especially around that "Flowed Lands" area. If I get a chance later I'll try to look all this up in the National Hydrography Dataset (NHD), which should at least give a definitive answer about the longest headwater tributary, as well as flow directions and the names of even small segments of stream. Pfly (talk) 23:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, in short, the NHD confirms what Cstaffa wrote—the Hudson River begins at the confluence of Calamity Brook and Indian Pass Brook (just after it "passes through" Henderson Lake). Also that the "Flowed Lands" has two outlets, Calamity Brook and the lower Opalescent River. I still think the various pages that talk about the source of the Hudson should say it is the confluence of Calamity Brook and Indian Pass Brook, and, if desired, a comment in the text could be made that "according to some sources" Lake Tear of the Clouds is the "highest" source headwater—highest as in altitude, which that source claims makes it the true source or whatever, despite that not being a very common way to define "source". (more later!)Pfly (talk) 00:49, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, had a little more time and looked into this all. A simple browsing of Google Books shows that Lake Tear of the Clouds is commonly said to be the source of the Hudson River. This was apparently determined by Verplanck Colvin back in 1872. Numerous books say Lake Tear of the Clouds is the source, like [3], [4], [5] (says "true source"), [6] (says "Colvin declared Lake Tear of the Clouds as the source"), and the book I linked before, [7]. So, I guess that's that, eh? I like the way one book says Colvin "declared" the lake to be the source, because it leaves open the question of what the "true source" is, whatever "true source" is even supposed to mean. Usually, I think, geographers talk about the most distant source and/or the largest (greatest streamflow). I would guess that the Opalescent River is larger than Feldspar Brook at their confluence, although I'm not sure. I did check their lengths as defined in the National Hydrography Dataset and the Opalescent River source is a bit longer than the Feldspar Brook source. The details are: Opalescent River to Calamity Brook to Hudson River = 14.796 km (9.194 mi). Feldspar Brook to Opalescent River to Calamity Brook to Hudson River = 13.331 km (8.283 mi). Nonetheless, it's now obvious to me that Lake Tear of the Clouds is commonly said to be the utmost source, ever since Verplanck Colvin said it was back in 1872. Even so I would try to be clear that the river called the Hudson starts at the confluence of Calamity Brook and Indian Pass Brook. Pfly (talk) 04:42, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

While I like the research you've done, I don't see the Hudson touching Lake Tear of the Clouds. I also don't see it touching Henderson Lake. I've made matching changes to both this list article and the Hudson River article. And at the Lake Tear of the Clouds article. If I get reverted, I get reverted. Every Google result says Lake Tear of the Clouds, though. - Denimadept (talk) 07:59, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I am changing "source" to "beginning" in this article, to try to avoid conflicts on the meaning of "source". Please see the comment at #terminology. I note that Hudson River now says "begins". --Cstaffa (talk) 14:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

As for rivers and streams flowing through lakes, the Rhine River does flow through Lake Constance along the border between Switzerland and Germany.47.215.183.159 (talk) 05:05, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

The Rhone River of France and Switzerland flows through Lake Geneva, and there is essentially one river that flows through Lake St. Clair, even though it has two names, the St. Clair River and the Detroit River. Lake St. Clair also has one other significant river flowing into it, the Thames River (Ontario).

As for the Tennessee River page, "which says its source is the confluence of the French Broad River and the Holston Rivers " in Knoxville that is de jure - among other things, as defined by the Tennessee Valley Authority. The "beginning" of the Tennessee River used to be further downstream until the TVA changed that.47.215.183.159 (talk) 05:05, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Bridge demolished

Where, what kind, when? Give us something. Rmhermen (talk) 20:43, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? What kind of bridge? What kind of demo? Given how? - Denimadept (talk) 21:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I presume he is referring to the one after North Creek Bridge, which only says "Bridge (demolished)". I think a location would be good. --Cstaffa (talk) 02:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking... Probably either 43.736189°N 74.022447°W / 43.736189; -74.022447 or 43.725553°N 74.014165°W / 43.725553; -74.014165. I'm leaning toward the latter, just based on where it looks like there was once a bridge. - Denimadept (talk) 08:13, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I've asked VerruckteDan for his source. I note that the USGS Thirteenth Lake quadrangle map of 1898[8] shows some crossing with dashed lines at about 43.741898°N 74.050791°W / 43.741898; -74.050791. --Cstaffa (talk) 15:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

The crossing at North River shown on the Thirteenth Lake quad of 1898 is a ford, not a bridge. --Cstaffa (talk) 15:48, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

No bridge appears between North Creek and the location of the Adirondack Railway bridge on any available USGS topographic map[9] going back to the nineteenth century. Maybe the earlier North Creek bridge was meant. --Cstaffa (talk) 04:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

The name of the article is not "fixed bridges", it's "fixed crossings". - Denimadept (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but the item in question is "Bridge (demolished)", so I was searching for a bridge. --Cstaffa (talk) 04:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 23 August 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved DrStrauss talk 20:45, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

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List of fixed crossings of the Hudson River → List of crossings of the Hudson River – None of these are fixed crossings as defined in that Wikipedia article - a bridge-tunnel, a causeway-tunnel, etc. but not a conventional bridge or tunnel, which is what all of these are. Additionally, this is more consistent with other articles - List of crossings of the River Thames, List of crossings of the Potomac River, etc. Smartyllama (talk) 14:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support per well-reasoned nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 06:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A map would be nice

I'd sure like to see these on a map. GA-RT-22 (talk) 21:20, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Fenimore Bridge

Any objection to me changing the name of "Bridge" between Moreau-Hudson Falls to the Fenimore Bridge? I have a source (local newspaper) calling it that. Happy to cite it and change it if there are no objections. Kjscotte34 (talk) 01:26, 12 June 2021 (UTC)