Talk:Ludwig's subathon

Page move

@Theleekycauldron: I didn't see any sources that refer to the subathon as "Ludwig subathon". It also feels clunky and incorrect to me: in English, we don't just stick words together to form possessives. In your summary, you said the new title is "wiki-style title". Can you link to the guideline/previous precedent of this? The subathon had no formal title so picking an alternative is challenging. Thank you — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 00:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@PerfectSoundWhatever: I based it off of article titles like Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign or Andrew Cuomo sexual harassment allegations – cases where the title describes an incident involving a person, without using a possessive. I'm not sure if a possessive is needed here? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 01:46, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron: I understand the reasoning, but shouldn't we use what appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME, without regard to consistency with other articles? "Ludwig's subathon" is used by GameRant, Screen Rant, PC Gamer, The Loadout. The only site I could find using "Ludwig subathon" was Upcomer (no idea if this is even a rs). It seems most publications just describe the subathon with words, not with a definite title, which is annoying. For example, the New York Times article uses "his subathon stream" in the prose and has no definite name in the title or subtitle. USA Today is similar, describing it as a "a 30-day streaming binge". Ludwig himself refers to the stream as just "the Subathon", which is obviously unideal, since it adds confusion between other subathons, and subathons in general.

I'm undoing the page move per WP:BRD, since it appears more sources use "Ludwig's subathon" over "Ludwig subathon". In absence of an official title, we should just use whatever sources seem to use the most. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 15:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@PerfectSoundWhatever: That's fine with me :) thanks for leaving me a note! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:31, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

DYK ideas

Assuming the GA passes, jotting down some ideas for hooks.

• ...that Ludwig Ahgren's appendectomy led to him livestreaming for 31 days instead of 24 hours?
• ...that Ludwig Ahgren showered on camera during his 31-day continuous livestream?
• ...that after livestreaming for 31 days, Ludwig Ahgren netted US$1,434,850 but profited US$202,000?
• ...that Ludwig Ahgren slept for 31.5% of his 31-day continuous livestream?

— PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 01:25, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

• ...that Ludwig Ahgren livestreamed for 31 days instead of 24 hours due to his appendectomy? — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:23, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Ludwig's subathon/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ArcticSeeress (talk · contribs) 18:33, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Hey there, PerfectSoundWhatever. I'll be reviewing this article over the following days. Look forward to working with you. ArcticSeeress (talk) 18:33, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Hey, thanks so much for taking up this review! Will begin resolving the comments soon :) — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 01:25, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Background

• then Ahgren's livestreaming platform - Is it not anymore? Perhaps provide a note here
  •  Not done for now. Ahgren's current livestreaming platform is YouTube gaming, but this information in my opinion is not relevant to the scope of this article. Readers may find this information in Ahgren's article (it's in the lead) — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:38, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
• the 2020 resurgence of Among Us. - Some readers may be unfamiliar with Among Us. I'd suggest specifying that it's a video game
• According to The New York Times, Ahgren's stream was a part of another trend, of "creators monetizing more and more parts of their lives" - Several things to comment on here

1. I suggest crediting the author of the article, Taylor Lorenz
2. They stated that it "could be seen as", not that it "was".
3. Perhaps just write "was part of a trend"
4. I suggest removing the comma between "trend" and "of"

• The rescheduled stream was altered to be a subathon - Is there a reason why?
  • There isn't a reason in any secondary sources that I know of. I'm sure he stated why in some stream / video, but it'd be difficult to dig that up. I would assume that he altered it as an extra bonus to the viewers since the stream was cancelled — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:38, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

I was initially hesitant about using Game Rant and Business Insider as sources, but the information they verify is fairly trivial, so I'll let it slide here. If you can find other sources that also verify this information, that would be preferred. (See: WP:VG/RS and WP:RSP). The same applies to Screen Rant, but I'll get to them later. ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• All above  Done except if noted. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:38, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Livestream

• talking to his viewers or moderators - "or"? I'd just write "and"
• hosting movie nights - This wording is very colloquial. I'd suggest something a la "watching movies with the audience", or similar.
• by talking, watching videos and playing movies - You use the Oxford comma elsewhere in the article. Use it here as well.
• Kotaku wrote - Kotaku didn't write this; their author Nathan Grayson wrote it.
• You should either clarify what "gift subscription" means, or rewrite it. Readers may not be familiar with this terminology
• Ahgren reached two million Twitch followers during the stream - Readers may not know that followers and subscriptions are different on Twitch, so having it in the middle of the paragraph about subscriptions might make readers think he earned earned two million subscriptions in that time. I'd suggest moving this somewhere else.
• he stated he will - He would
• The quote states that he became the most viewed streamer on Twitch. Can you include this in the body? (With a reliable source of course). Also, I'd prefer the usage of Template:Tweet in place of quotebox as it includes a date and time.
  • The only one I could find was Business Insider; multiple publications also quote the tweet but don't say the most viewers thing in prose. I can search for a better source if requested. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 01:04, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
• The Screen Rant source doesn't state that the stream lasted for a total of 30 days, but that it had gone on for 30 days at the time of writing. The article was published on April 12, so this would indicate that it did last for 31 days. If it truly lasted for 30 days, I'd suggest finding another source for this, because as it stands, it actually doesn't verify anything. Also, just looking at a calendar can verify that March 14 till April 13 consists of 31 days
  • Good catch, thank you! — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 01:04, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:55, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• All above  Done. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 01:04, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Earnings

• I would suggest replacing the Screen Rant source, but I tried looking for others that verified the information and literally couldn't find any other articles. It seems to just be using the same numbers as Ahgren's video, so it seems fairly trivial here.
• Since many streamers do not pay their moderators, according to Game Rant, the payments to Ahgren's moderators "is making a big difference" for them. - This sentence is synthesis and should be avoided; The topic of the first clause is Twitch moderators in general, while the second clause talks specifically about Ahgren's moderators, so they're not actually related at all. Also, as stated earlier, Game Rant is a situationally reliable source per WP:VG/RS, and should be avoided when making statements like this. I'd replace this entire sentence with something like "Ahgren is notable for having paid his chat moderators for their work on the stream, an uncommon practice on Twitch."
• Ahgren has been criticized - This should be in the reception section.
• Ahgren told viewers to not donate money from their - Perhaps replace "told" with "encouraged".
  •  Not done I prefer the original wording, "encouraged" feels odd to me here. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 01:12, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

ArcticSeeress (talk) 20:14, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• All above  Done except if noted. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 01:12, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Reception and legacy

• The first paragraph of the section reads like a list. I'd suggest varying the structure here.
• Please attribute the opinions to their respective authors instead of just the people they work for. This may not, strictly speaking, be necessary, but I feel like reception sections in particular are better with proper attribution because they are ultimately the opinion of authors writing for these companies, and not comments from the companies themselves.
• Link directly to Upcomer instead of Enthusiast Gaming. See MOS:NOPIPE for reasons.
• his sleeping - This is technically grammatically correct, and this a personal nitpick of mine, so you can go ahead and ignore it if you want: I'd suggest avoiding using possessive determiners with gerunds, instead replacing them with object pronouns, i.e. "Ahgren broadcasting himself sleeping" instead of "his sleeping".
• "accused " is a very strong word. Perhaps just use "criticized".
• I'd suggest putting a colon before Lara's quote, as not using it would create a mix of tenses.
• sleep streams by women are criticized for their ease of making money, but men sleep streams are not - This is a rather awkward sentence for several reasons (present tense, odd compounds), so here's my suggestion for rewriting it: "She noted that women would receive negative reception for streaming themselves sleeping, while men would not."
  • I ended up removing this, because my statement was reading in between the lines too much, and removing that part was basically the same as the quote. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
• Ahgren's stream induced discussion on the healthiness of "marathon" streams of such length - This sentence also reads rather awkwardly, especially coming directly after the previous one. Here's my suggestion: "Ahgren's stream also induced discussion on how unhealthy marathon streams of such length could be"
• There is some weird mixing of tenses going on with Screen Rant's comments on health. I'd suggest paraphrasing here.
• Ahgren is credited with the increased popularity - By who?
• is unbroken - "remained unbroken" reads better here.

ArcticSeeress (talk) 20:58, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• • All above  Done except if noted. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

External links

• I'd suggest removing the unofficial spreadsheet, as it seems to be user-generated. See WP:LINKSTOAVOID. While not strictly speaking a blog, personal web page or fansite, it is similar enough that I'd recommend not including it.
  •  Done I had a comment there: This spreadsheet was highly prevalent, reviewed by Ahgren, and linked to in multiple RSs, e.g. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-19/twitch-streamer-ludwig-never-ending-stream/100017600 which is why I believe it shouldn't be removed. But I'm fine with removing it. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:14, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Lead

• The second paragraph uses the word "stream" a lot. I'd suggest varying the language.
• is unbroken - remains unbroken
• viewers or stream moderators - Again, why "or"?
• playing games and sleeping - Missing Oxford comma
  •  Done — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:14, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Images

• Add alt text for accessibility
• The images all seem to have valid licences or fair use rationales, so nothing to comment on there

ArcticSeeress (talk) 21:16, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:10, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Overall assessment

Seems like I got this done quicker than I expected to. Anyway, there're a lot of issues with the article that keep it from meeting the GA criteria as is, mainly sourcing and prose. The other four GA criteria are easily met however, so good work so far. I checked for any potential copyright violations with Earwig's Copyvio Detector, and the only things it caught were quotes, so nothing of concern in that regard. I'll put this article on hold for 7 days until the concerns I have with the article have been rectified. ArcticSeeress (talk) 21:26, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

@ArcticSeeress: Thanks a lot for the review! I think I got to everything, let me know if you see any more issues. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 23:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I've read through the article and made some minor changes. I feel comfortable saying that this reaches the GA criteria. Good work! ArcticSeeress (talk) 20:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 12:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Ludwig Ahgren in 2021

• ... that Ludwig Ahgren livestreamed for 31 days instead of 24 hours due to his appendectomy? Source: https://legacy.upcomer.com/video-shattering-records-in-his-sleep-how-ludwigs-subathon-broke-twitch/
  • ALT1: ... that "thousands of viewers" watched Ludwig Ahgren shower during his 31-day continuous livestream? Source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-19/twitch-streamer-ludwig-never-ending-stream/100017600
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Starbucks Red Cup

Improved to Good Article status by PerfectSoundWhatever (talk). Self-nominated at 01:22, 10 December 2022 (UTC).

•  Reviewing... Onegreatjoke (talk) 01:55, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: - Not done
Overall: @PerfectSoundWhatever: Good article. Article is sourced and the hook is interesting. Just waiting on a QPQ now. Onegreatjoke (talk) 05:19, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• Redoing the @PerfectSoundWhatever:. Note to Onegreatjoke — pings don't work if you don't sign the post in the same edit. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Can't believe I forgot to sign my post. Onegreatjoke (talk) 05:19, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• I'm watching this page so no worries, still saw the review! Thank you for the ping anyways. Will get the QPQ done soon. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 05:20, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
• @Onegreatjoke: QPQ done. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 16:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Alright, approving. Onegreatjoke (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: I have checked this one out and it is ready to be promoted. Presently prep 3 has 4 male hooks, so it will have to wait. Bruxton (talk) 01:42, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
• @PerfectSoundWhatever, Bruxton, and RoySmith: I've pulled this from prep following a discussion at WT:DYK that identified a sourcing question – also, consensus on a hook should be achieved before repromotion. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 11:07, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Alright, I'll make a list of the current proposed hooks:
• ALT0 ... that Ludwig Ahgren's planned 24-hour livestream was postponed – so he continuously livestreamed for 31 days instead? source
• ALT1 ... that Ludwig Ahgren livestreamed for 31 days after his 24-hour livestream was postponed by his appendectomy? source
• ALT2 ... that Ludwig Ahgren grossed US$1,434,850 for continuously livestreaming his life for 31 days? source
• ALT3 ... that Ludwig Ahgren showered on camera during his 31-day continuous livestream? source
  • ALT0 and 1 are similar. They are sourced on Upcomer, which is reliable based on the weak consensus at WP:VG/S, but ALT1 was objected since RoySmith beleived Upcomer isn't good enough for a BLP's medical history. ALT0 omits the medical aspect. Note that a video made by Ahgren confirms the appendectomy and that it was why he postponed the stream, which is complaint with WP:ABOUTSELF. The objection to ALT2 is that it is sourced on ScreenRant which, per WP:RSP, is considered reliable for entertainment-related topics, but should not be used for controversial statements related to living persons. I disagree what it sources (the amount of money he grossed) is controversial, especially since he shared the figure in a video. If a third party checks these hooks and finds that all of the sourcing issues are justified, I will look for new hooks afterwards. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
• @PerfectSoundWhatever, Onegreatjoke, and Theleekycauldron: Any updates on this? It's been over a month. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5: I was under the impression a second reviewer is needed. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 02:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
    • yeah, basically sitting pretty for the moment. I don't really have the bandwidth to deal with this at the moment, so a new reviewer for the hooks is probably needed. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 08:13, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
      • I'll re-review this. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image eligibility:

• Freely licensed:
• Used in article: - Not used in article
• Clear at 100px: - Pretty blurry at any size

QPQ: Done.

Overall: All four ALTs look good to me; they're all properly sourced and interesting. In my opinion, ALT2 and ALT3 are best; ALT1 and ALT0 are slightly less interesting then the other two. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 17:49, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

• MyCatIsAChonk, did you take into consideration the discussion at WT:DYK mentioned above, which was quite extensive, and went into some sourcing issues? You don't explicitly say so. If not, then please do; otherwise, this will probably get pulled from prep a second time, which would be unfortunate. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:00, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
  • @BlueMoonset: I did ensure to take consideration of the discussion; most of the problems brought up there were addressed above by PerfectSoundWhatever, and the others were no longer relevant or have been fixed within the article. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 00:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Unclear sentence?

I know lots of people have reviewed this article, but there's a sentence I can't quite make sense of: "Ahgren's stream started a trend of subathons, which were not as popular until Ahgren's". Should the first verb be "continued"? - there was a trend already, but it wasn't popular until Ahgren's performance. Or should the final words be "as Ahgren's" or perhaps "until Cenat's" - Ahgren did start the trend, but the later performances were mostly not as popular? -- John of Reading (talk) 08:48, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@John of Reading: Subathons were already a thing prior, but Ahgren's subathon started a trend of other people doing them. This is what the source says: "This concept [subathons] was largely made popular by an event that now YouTube streamer Ludwig ran in 2021." [1].

I tried to rephrase that sentence. Is it more clear now? Thanks — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 19:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@PerfectSoundWhatever: Yes, that's much clearer. Thank you. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:14, 6 March 2023 (UTC)