Talk:Minas Morgul

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move.

Requested move

While known as Minas Ithil for longer during the timeline of Midde-earth, Minas Morgul is more commonly recognised, due to use in the most mainstream of Tolkien's texts, The Lord of the Rings. This would also bring it into line with Minas Tirith/Minas Anor. Google hits ratio is 200,000:26,000 in favour of Minas Morgul. Minas Morgul currently exists as a redirect. --UrbaneLegend 14:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support - Minas Morgul is the more recognized name. --CBDunkerson 18:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Translation of the name "Morgul"

In this article, the meaning/translation of 'Minas Morgul' is given as 'Tower of Black Sorcery', from minas, "tower", mor-, "black, dark", and -gûl, "sorcery". But in the Nazgûl article, Nazgûl is derived from nazg-, "ring", and -gûl, "wraith, spirit". Is there a mistake with the article (instead of the 'Tower of Black Sorcery', the 'Tower of Dark Wraiths') or does -gûl have a double meaning? --JonnyLightning (talk) 04:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Placed Notability Tag

Not the subject of multiple independant secondary sources as required by WP:NN and does not have any real world content as clarified by WP:FICT [[Guest9999 22:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)]]

Tag Contested

This subject has notability, editing and referencing as needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.83.99.216 (talk) 06:22, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Referenced

The former was me, --T.S.Boncompte 06:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC). I have referenced the Minas Morgul Article beyond doubt, established it's real-life notability and therefore, in my humble opinion, removed any cause for this article being deleted.

Unreferenced material

Article has been tagged for needing sources long-term. Feel free to reinsert the below material with appropriate references. DonIago (talk) 12:44, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Third Age

===Third Age=== The Kingdom of Gondor prospered for many years in the early part of the Third Age, however Minas Ithil's importance declined somewhat, as the Kings of Gondor kept their thrones in Osgiliath, and as some of them began to spend their summers in Minas Anor. Minas Ithil suffered greatly as a result of the Great Plague in the year T.A. 1636. Its population and garrison were diminished, and the watch on Mordor inevitably became lax. In T.A. 1980 the Nazgûl returned to Mordor, after the army of their leader (the Witch-king of Angmar) had been defeated in the north of Middle-earth by a joint force of Elves, Dúnedain, and men of Gondor under the command of Prince Eärnur. In preparation for Sauron's return to Mordor, the Ringwraiths laid siege to Minas Ithil in 2000, and they took the city for their dark master two years later. Minas Ithil was occupied by fell creatures and its walls were studded with menacing fortifications. (The palantír kept in the Tower was also captured, and later installed at Barad-dûr.) As a result, the city became a foul, evil place, and it came to be called Minas Morgul, "The Tower of Dark Sorcery" in Sindarin; the valley in which it stood likewise came to be known as Morgul Vale. In response, Minas Anor was likewise renamed Minas Tirith, "The Tower of Guard," to indicate Gondor's eternal vigilance against the threat of the Witch-king. After Eärnur became King of Gondor in 2043, the Witch-king challenged him to single combat in order to finish a disputed duel between them at the Battle of Fornost years earlier. In 2050 Eärnur accepted a second challenge, rode with a contingent of knights to Minas Morgul and was never heard from again. Eärnur was believed to have died in torment in Minas Morgul. Because he had no heirs and was never declared officially dead, the line of the Stewards of Gondor ruled the kingdom in his stead until the return of an heir of Isildur, beginning with Eärnur's own Steward, Mardil. Terror and war were directed against Gondor from Minas Morgul until Ithilien was deserted. Sauron returned secretly to Mordor in 2942, and in 2951 he declared himself openly and began to gather power again. Sauron claimed the Ithil-stone, and with it he was later able to ensnare Saruman (the White Wizard) and to deceive Denethor (the last ruling Steward of Gondor), who each had one of the other palantíri. At the time of the War of the Ring, the Witch-king of Angmar and most of the Nazgûl dwelt in Minas Morgul; two or three other Nazgûl occupied Dol Guldur in Mirkwood. Numerous Orcs, including Gorbag, were also stationed in Minas Morgul and the Silent Watchers were ever-vigilant. On 20th 'June' 3018, the Witch-king rode forth to lead an assault on Osgiliath, and then he rode north with the other Nazgûl in search of the Hobbit who bore the One Ring.

City of the Nazgûl

===City of the Nazgûl=== Under the Ringwraiths Minas Ithil was perverted into a horribly corrupt version of its former beauty. Its gate was described to be a cavernous mouth. The topmost course of the tower revolved slowly, like a great leering head, and the marble walls of Minas Morgul shone not with reflected moonlight, but with a pale, frightening light of its own which Tolkien described as "a corpse-light" that "illuminated nothing". Where Minas Ithil was, in its day, likely a bustling, noisy city like Minas Tirith, Minas Morgul was as silent as the grave. The walls and tower of Minas Morgul had many windows, but they were all unlit and revealed nothing of the horrors within. The dark magic that permeated Morgul Vale was so great that it could drive men mad if they came too near the city. A white stone bridge ran across Morgul Vale to the city's gate on its northern wall, and at each end of the bridge were hideous statues of twisted men and animals. On either side of the Vale were fields of blighted flowers which gave off a rotten scent. When Frodo Baggins, Samwise Gamgee and Gollum passed by the city on their way to Cirith Ungol, the One Ring almost succeeded in compelling Frodo to run right to the city gates. As they climbed the stairs of Cirith Ungol soon afterward, Frodo, Sam and Gollum watched as a red flash erupted from Barad-dûr to signal the start of the assault on Minas Tirith. Immediately afterwards a similar flash of intense blue lightning was emitted from the tower of Minas Morgul as its garrison, led by the Witch-king of Angmar, marched out to lay siege to Minas Tirith.

Third-party sources

• "Minas Ithil". Encyclopedia of Arda. Mark Fisher. 23 October 2004. Retrieved 8 March 2012.
• Hammond, Wayne G.; Scull, Christina (2005). The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion. Houghton Mifflin.

The above are 3rd party sources. Derivatives of an authors work are in themselves third party sources too. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 15:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

How are they third-party sources? They were expressly written to discuss in-universe material. They aren't external reviews and they in no way establish that Minas Morgul has significance outside of the franchise.

Also I am formally contesting your removal of the notability tag and will request assistance at WP:EA. DonIago (talk) 15:44, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

How are they not third party sources? Tolkien writes a book, another author writes a book about that book - ergo it is a third party source! That's what third party sources are not just reviews in newspapers. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 15:46, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Third-party sources would establish the significance of Minas Morgul outside the framework of the LotR franchise. I suspect those sources do not do so, but if they do, please provide more information as to how they do so. I have posted at WP:EA regarding your unilateral removal of the "Notability" template; hopefully there will be a response and ideally a third-opinion here shortly.

To my mind what you're saying is akin to saying that the "Star Trek Companion" establishes that Star Trek is a notable subject. A publication intended from the beginning to discuss a specific subject does not, to my mind, establish the significance of that subject. DonIago (talk) 15:52, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

By the way, the instructions for the Notability template explicitly state, "If the template is re-added, please do not edit war over it. Questions of notability can be resolved through discussion or through Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. If the article exists within the scope of a specific WikiProject it may be beneficial to invite feedback from the group." I am consequently requesting that you re-add the template as a show of good faith pending a consensus to remove it. Thank you. DonIago (talk) 15:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The article needs work for its tone, it is far too in universe, however the third party sources above are good enough to establish notability. You are confusing the two issues. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 16:54, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Might I suggest that instead of focusing on any misinterpretation I might be doing you instead provide sources that are more clearly not third-party sources? That would moot my concern entirely. In the meantime I am hoping other editors will offer their input. And I still believe the tag should remain in the article until there is a consensus to remove it.

I will note that in a worst-case scenario I am prepared to follow the advice I received at EA and nominate this article for deletion. I will hope it does not come to that. DonIago (talk) 17:18, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

please nominate. You have failed to show how the sources above fail WP:GNG. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 17:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I've nominated it myself. If the third party works cited are not good enough then the article is never going to be fixable. GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 17:27, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to think there are other sources of note out there, or that the material here may be suitable for merging into a larger-scope article, but I guess we'll see how things play out. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 17:42, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Not strictly related to this situation, which the AFD essentially resolved with a ruling of No Consensus, but I have started a discussion regarding what I feel to be the underlying issues at Wikipedia:VPP#Notability of fictional items and tie-in sources. Opinions are welcome. DonIago (talk) 13:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Errors

There are several assertions in this article that are incorrect, in particular the ridiculous assertion that the orcs in Minas Morgul had become "isolated" from those in Mordor proper. The conflict between Shagrat and Gorbag had nothing to do with any ostensible "isolation," whether geographic or political, apart from the tendency of orcs to quarrel with others of different units or tribes in the absence of strong leadership. The illustration of an emblem from the city is also wrong, as Tolkien describes the token of the Morgul orcs as a "ghastly disfigured" moonface, not a skull beside a crescent moon. This is all unsourced speculation and simply wrong. 124.33.208.179 (talk) 08:09, 17 July 2014 (UTC)Vainamoinen

Why not be bold and make appropriate changes then? DonIago (talk) 12:51, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Minas Morgul As Seen In Shadow Of War.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:37, 15 February 2020 (UTC)