Talk:K. P. Yohannan
This article was nominated for deletion on 24 January 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
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Edit warring
editI have fully protected this article due to the edit war. Please use the talk page to discuss and work out differences in the article in accordance with WP:Consensus. If you cannot agree, please consider WP:DR. The article has bIeen protected as it was when I found it. If the content is perceived to violate WP:BLP, it may be reverted during the discussion, but there will need to be some explanation of how it fails that policy. Please feel free to explain here, with {{Edit protected}}. (Please be specific about the issue you perceive. Critical commentary is permitted on Wikipedia, as long as it is properly sourced and otherwise meets the requirements of WP:BLP.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:20, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Keeping the controversy Section in this article
editLoveYourNeighbor1
I am having the Annual report of FCRA published by the Home Ministry Of India from 2003 to 2009. It clearly shows how much amount Gospel For Asia (USA) had send to India and how much money Gospel For Asia (India) and Believers Church had totally shown as received and spend for charity. I have solid proof of every real estate transactions done by Gospel For India and their office bearers. Believers church is having a Engineering college in Kerala and one medical college is under construction. Can you please let us know how many students of these colleges are from any of the charity mission supported by this organization. Childrens from mission are not meant to study only in Bible colleges. They can also become doctors and engineers. Where did the money came to build such big infrastructures? You mean the purpose of purchasing 2800 acres of land is charity. Then why doesn't that charity apply when some economically backward people tried to encroach the land under this organization. Why was force including the people of this organization and police applied to remove them from the estate? Why had international amateur radio union monitoring system ordered to remove transmission of Gospel For Asia from Issodun ? Why certain sections of the website of Gospel For Asia is redirected using a CDN script from accessing in India? Benedictdilton (talk) 21:43, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
LoveYourNeighbor1 This page is not about Gospel For Asia this is about K P Yohannan. So your question about raising complaint about an organization don't apply here. I had provided supported reference of credible published media. If you can find any reference that corroborate aganist the points raised by me in the controversy section I am always happy to remove it. I had never heared in my life a pastor being consecrated as a Bishop and he then ordain himself as a Metropolitan. If these kind of matters are hidden from the eyes of the public time will not be far that he declares himself as the Pope. There are media reports by the home minister of Kerala stating that Gospel For Asia is a 7 member trust comprising K P Yohannan and his family members.Benedictdilton (talk) 10:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I believe the following two points should be removed unless sourced better. -crores collected for charity and rehabilitation of Orphans used to purchase 2800 acres of land in Kerala. [12] - this source in no way makes this statement. It states that land was purchased, but it does not say that they used money collected for charity for this purpose. -On a case filed by the Government Of Kerala the High Court Of Kerala had ordered not to sell the land held by him or create any liability. [13] - not a reliable source for a BLP LoveYourNeighbor1 (talk) 13:08, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I would like to chance the first point as follows
" Foreign Funds Of Rs 1044 crores received in the last 15 years was diverted to purchase 2800 acres of land including 2200 acres of Cheruvally estate " Its almost equal to what mentioned on the article.
On the second point moderators and admin can take a decision on the credibility of the source and take any action they seems fit.
Benedictdilton (talk) 15:42, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Regarding first point - it is already stated in the article. No need to repeat allegations.
In order to better follow BLP guidelines, I think that the introduction should change the term controversy to allegation, and we need to include that none of the allegations have been proven in a court of law as of today. Proposed text is "Yohannan's work has been the subject of various allegations which have not been proven or confirmed in any court of law." Then, any well sourced allegations can be added. This will ensure that Presumption in Favor of Privacy is followed.LoveYourNeighbor1 (talk) 16:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Let us take a look at what others had to say about this topic. I am against changing the section name. Controversy is the word that suits this kind of situations. If you have any reference against the points noted here kindly quote that. I am open to edit it. Admin and moderators can take any action that they seems fit for the situation. Benedictdilton (talk) 16:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
As a reader, I would be interested in knowing what the results of any investigations were. 1. What happened to the petition filed by the Kerala Government in point 7? 2. What are the results of tracking that 1048 crore in point 8? 3. They were accused of land grab in point 9. Were they convicted? Did the government confiscate the land? 4. What was the result of the Home Department investigation in point 10? You seem to have a lot of information on these topics. Are these investigation still going on? Do we have their case numbers? Is there an update. It seems strange to have so many investigations started on allegations with no further details on anything, especially since some of these are over 8 years old.LoveYourNeighbor1 (talk) 18:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Dear LoveYourNeighbor1 I don't think you as a reader. I clearly feel you are hell bend on making sure all articles related to K P Yohannan, Gospel For Asia and Believers Church looks clean. Are you aware of the procedure for a person to become a Bishop in an episcopal church. All norms were floated to make Mr K P Yohannan a Bishop. Why you want to hide that fact from the public? These people should have done a lot of good things start a new section and mention it over there. How can you justify throwing a muslim girl out of the school for wearing her traditional head scarf ? If I start to put all the information I collected today evening about these people then I feel one page wont be enough. I don't have any more time to waste after this on this matter As people like you are working over time to make sure that nobody should criticize these guys. I am having answer to all your questions except the second one. I can publish it here if any of the moderators or admin think that I should do so. If you want we can start from the case these guys filed to obtain the domain gfa.org . Why should I worry about the donation given by 1,01,600 United States federal employees under Combined Federal Campaign Why should I worry about money wasted on the name Charity??? Benedictdilton (talk) 22:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Mantaining, cleaning or removing Controversy section
editWell, there is clearly an ongoing discussion regarding the maintenance of Controversy section in this very same article, to uninvolved editors a edit war took place regarding this matter, one editor is in against keeping controversy section while the other on the opposite side, so to reach a better outcome I think a RfC should take place to help this resolution. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 00:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
RfC is out of control through massive puppetry. Closing down early. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Support for retaining controversy sectionedit
"is a state of prolonged public dispute or debate, usually concerning a matter of conflicting opinion or point of view. The word was coined from the Latin controversia, as a composite of controversus – "turned in an opposite direction," from contra – "against" – and vertere – to turn, or versus (see verse), hence, "to turn against."
The most applicable or well known controversial subjects, topics or areas are politics, religion and sex.[1][2][3] Other areas of controversy include history and philosophy. Other minor yet prominent areas of controversy are economics, science, finances, culture, education, the military, society, celebrities, organisation, the media, age, gender, and race. Controversy in matters of theology has traditionally been particularly heated, giving rise to the phrase odium theologicum. Controversial issues are held as potentially divisive in a given society, because they can lead to tension and ill will, as a result they are often taboo to be discussed in the light of company in many cultures." I feel we can't find a better name for this section. Same name is used in almost all topics were there is some thing like this problem exists including politicians and religious leaders. So I request the admin and moderators to continue the section and start a constructive discussion in what should be the content under the section. In India a crime to be proved in a court of law takes 15 - 20 years. In that case all content with creditable reference of print media should be included in the section that is my request. Benedictdilton (talk) 13:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC) Opposeedit
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I have closed this RfC down, as it is obviously completely out of control. Please continue the cleanup of the disputed passage that is currently underway; then, based on better material, re-start an RfC if necessary, possibly on a subpage that can be kept semiprotected while the RfC lasts. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:34, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Cleaning up the controversy Section.
editI was not aware that this matter was this much sensitive and I am going to be more careful in my write up. I am putting up my first point.Suggestions are welcome.
- On February 6, 2003, Mr. K P Yohannan was consecrated as a Bishop by floating all norms by the Moderator of Church of South India Bishop K J Samuel. (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/an-archbishop-s-spiritual-factory/323561) Opposing factions in the CSI in a letter to the moderator and other Bishops raised doubts on motive behind the action of the Believers Church and declared that Believers Church is not a part of Church of South India. (http://www.hindu.com/2003/02/10/stories/2003021003650400.htm) Benedictdilton (talk) 19:23, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
No comments had come up against this point Hope we can go forward with this.Benedictdilton (talk) 01:38, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
- Government Of Kerala filed a petition on 13 November 2012 athe High Court Of Kerala against Harrison Malayalam Ltd and K P Yohannan asking them to deposit profit accured by using Government property in their possession . Decision on this matter is pending in the high court. (http://www.madhyamam.com/en/node/6891)Benedictdilton (talk) 14:36, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I have removed the criticism that cited Iain Buchanan because it was sloppy and overstated his position. If you would like to reinstate it, please make sure you attribute Buchanan's criticism to his interview, not his book, and perhaps strike the claim that Buchanan said Yohannan welcomed the tsunami since he only talked about how Yohannan welcomed the tsunami, which has a different connotation than claiming he welcomed it. markegli (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Looking at the allegation that "only a priest can become a bishop," there seems to be a contradiction with the previous section. Under "Ministry," we clearly see that "Yohannan became an ordained clergyman," which means that he would qualify as a pastor or "priest," with the usage depending on what part of the world you belong to. Given that status, an ordination as a bishop would be the "normal course." This part seems more libelous than an attempt at presenting the truth. LivingIsSimple (talk) 04:40, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure the content in the controversies page belongs in K.P. Yohannan's biography.
1. The allegations listed are against either Gospel for Asia or Believers Church, and not K.P. personally.
2. At least two of the allegations have secondary sources that explain the court cases that absolve the allegations against Gospel for Asia and Believer's Church.
3. The issues around Harrison Malayalam and the Cheruvally Estate were absolved, but even if they weren't, the contention is whether Harrison Malayalam had an authorized title deed to sell the land. This isn't an issue with K.P. personally.
If these things are deemed notable enough to be in a biography about K.P. Yohannan, then they should be labelled as allegations, not as controversies.
HappyPmachine (talk) 18:16, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Removed questionable criticism section.
It seems like this content has little to do with K.P. Yohannan personally. He's mentioned in these articles more because he is head of Gospel for Asia and Believer's Church, which the cases were against, rather than his personal involvement.
The rubber estate, which this section all centers on, was purchased by Believer's Church from Harrison Malayalam. It is not a personal property of K.P.
http://www.believerschurch.com/cheruvally-estate/
Moreover, Gospel for Asia is a registered NGO, and Believer's Church is a registered church in India. Therefore, audits are a normal part of operation. The fact that no subsequent sources exist that report any wrong-doing was found testifies to the fact that the claims had no credibility.
Finally, as the sources mentioned, the cases involving the rubber estate were all absolved, therefore these aren't really a controversy.
HappyPmachine (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Removed poorly sourced controversy section
The controversy section appeared to be a direct copy-paste quote mongering speculation from a questionable source, and I have hence removed it. This page especially requires a neutral tone, and it appears that the content dumped here did not meet the qualifications of WP:BLP
For the attention of Admin and Moderators
editI request admin and moderators to keep a close eye on the following articles Gospel for Asia, K. P. Yohannan, Believers Church there is a clear indication that a there can be again a massive puppetry as happened in the talk page of K. P. Yohannan.Benedictdilton (talk) 01:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
- The page move and recent edits by Elfgirl13 may be a further instance of this. DFH (talk) 10:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
- The only contribs by this user all relate to the same three connected pages. Looking suspiciously like more of the puppetry that we saw earlier. DFH (talk) 10:40, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
- Definitely puppetry. Also, the page move needs to be reverted. Abhishek Jacob (talk) 07:04, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- The only contribs by this user all relate to the same three connected pages. Looking suspiciously like more of the puppetry that we saw earlier. DFH (talk) 10:40, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
External links modified
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The recent page move?
editThe page move of 2018-12-08 by Elfgirl13 seems to be not in accordance with a WP policy. Even the present Archbishop of Canterbury's page is still named Justin Welby. This article is about K. P. Yohannan but the new page name now reflects his ecclesiastical title rather than his real name. Please would someone with much more experience and knowledge of WP policy look into this. Thanks. DFH (talk) 10:36, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Request for comments: Should this page have ever been moved from "K. P. Yohannan" ?
edit- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Please see the comments I made in on 21 January 2019 in the previous section, and consider whether most of the edits since October 2018 might all be further instances of sockpuppetry. DFH (talk) 16:45, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Comment (Summoned by bot) RfCs are to resolve disputes, and none appears evident at the current time. Also you need to state the issue in dispute in the RfC. I suggest that you close this out. Coretheapple (talk) 19:52, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Recommendation If you are concerned about sockpuppetry, then according to Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry, you should report what you've found at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations. Ender and Peter 06:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Comment (Summoned by bot) @David Haslam: I agree with both Enderandpeter and Coretheapple above. Please close out this RfC. -- I dream of horses If you reply here, please ping me by adding {{U|I dream of horses}} to your message
Comment - Same as above. Summoned by bot. This should be closed and taken to WP:SPI. Meatsgains(talk) 01:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
New name/title
editGiven he is using the combo name/title of Moran Mor Athanasius Yohan Metropolitan we should probably figure out and source which parts are the name and which the titles. Metropolitan is a title as is Moran Mor so the name bit is Athanasius Yohan. Sourcing? or should we just link those parts of the name/title? --Erp (talk) 04:00, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
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Commons files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion
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