Talk:Murder of Brianna Ghey

Do we need to name those convicted?

WP:BLP says:

• Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.
• When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories.

I propose replacing the names with X and Y as it was before they were named as I cannot see what value the actual names can possibly add on top of that. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:56, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Surely we can be retrospective though. It's not like the names aren't in the public domain. This is Paul (talk) 19:10, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Ordinarily I would agree with your reading of BLP and WP:BLPNAME in particular, however since the reporting restrictions were lifted there have been multiple in-depth articles published about both killers; The Independent, BBC News, The Guardian, ITV Granada, The Standard. We're now well past the point where the names, and pictures of the killers have been widely disseminated, as well as past the point of "brief appearances of names in news stories".

I suspect in the future something similar to the names of the killers of James Bulger may happen, where if they become eligible for release Jenkinson and Ratcliffe may be given new identities for their protection and privacy. But for now, I think we're likely safe to include their names. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:14, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

The names of those who have been convicted have been very widely reported and I think it would be pointless to remove them from our article. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:34, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I entirely agree. As it was a decision for Mrs Justice Yip, I think we ought to respect the full outcome of this case. They've not just been named, their mugshots will have appeared on television news bulletins across the world for several days now. I'm surprised some editors have not asked for these images to be added into this article. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:41, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

That might be because their images are already in the article, having been added yesterday evening. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

This seems to make a request to replace their names with "X" and "Y" even more ridiculous? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:45, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

So how do you think their names improve a readers understanding of the topic of this article? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:24, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps because they are essential facts about their respective identities and about the trial itself. I think your suggestion that their names should be removed is utterly ludicrous. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Include killers' names, Wikipedia is not censored. WWGB (talk) 02:33, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

A non sequitur per WP:NOTCENSORED surely. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:30, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Essential? Can you elaborate on why you believe their names are so indispensable. How would saying something like "two 15-year-old children" instead fatally harm the article? -- DeFacto (talk). 08:39, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest that a person's name (and usually also their date of birth) are indispensable to the legal process in England and Wales. They are considered the most fundamental aspects of a person's identity. This applies equally to suspects and to victims. There may be occasions when suspects or victims names are not disclosed, as part of the legal process and Wikipedia has to respect this. Equally, when the judge in a murder trial decides that names should be made public, Wikipedia also has a duty to report these names. In this particular cases the names and pictures of the murderers have been very widely circulated in news reports. They are part of any "basic understanding" of the case by observers across the world. You seem to want to construct some kind of a separate view of crime, where the names and/or images of the criminals in some way "don't really matter", or in some way don't contribute to a reader's "understanding"? One might argue that these particular crimes would have been equally serious if committed by people named "Scarlett Ratcliffe" and "Eddie Jenkinson". That may be theoretically true. But it's not how Wikipedia works. We reflect what most reliable sources say and they very obviously give the names of the murderers. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is nothing to do with the legal process in England and Wales though, it is an online encyclopaedia created by a volunteer community. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, let alone one of record, or a gazette, so does not have any duty to report anything. The topic of this article is a murder, and the names of those convicted adds nothing of any possible value to readers - does it? The inclusion of the names seems to be an example of a gratuitous "we included it because we can" rather than as a valuable addition to the article.

I know from past experience with other articles that there is always a clamour to add personal details of suspects and perpetrators of grim crimes, as if to seek some sort of revenge, with no thought given to why it would be useful in the article or what value it would add. I'd say we need a robust rationale before we include their names, including an answer to the question of what is lost by keeping them anonymous in the article. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:56, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I certainly don't think the article should be filled up with extraneous biographical details of the culprits, and elsewhere on this page I argued against including their neurological diagnoses. But I don't think one can really argue that the well-publicised name of a murderer is extraneous to a discussion of the murder. GenevieveDEon (talk) 15:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

If neurological or mental diagnoses were relevant to the suspect's culpability, or to the sentencing decisions made by the judge, as presented in the trial, I'd say they were wholly relevant. What might not be relevant would be their exact place and date of birth, their previous places of employment, the names of their family members, and so on. I'd suggest that the names and ages of those convicted would be a very bare minimum. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Age and gender should satisfy the ghoulish desire for particulars. The names are superfluous detail. Wikipedia isn't meant to be a definitive court record. Or can you explain why you think I am wrong about that. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Use of the name of a convicted criminal is not "the ghoulish desire for particulars." It may have escaped your notice but there are quite a lot of Wikipedia articles for convicted criminals which use that person's name. Or are you may going to embark, yet again, with the ridiculous argument of "we can't use names here because this isn't a biography article"? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:06, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Names are fine if the article is about the criminal, but otherwise it has no value to the topic. The topic of this article isn't the criminal, so I cannot see how you've formed the personal opinion that even so, they need to be named. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:02, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd say that this subject has quite a great deal to do with the legal process in England and Wales though. We include the names because they are a central part of understanding who murdered whom. If you really want to waste lots more of lots more editors' time, then you could always open a RfC on this. But I think I could predict what the outcome would be. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is nothing to do with the legal process in England and Wales though, so does not have to follow its conventions. The names add nothing to the understanding, unless you know the individuals personally. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:03, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

If victims' or suspects' names are not legally released into the public domain, I think that Wikipedia has a legal duty to respect that and not report them. Personal knowledge of the individuals concerned has nothing to do with it. In the absence of any input from other editors, if you insist on extending this discussion thread, I would have no objection to it being hatted, by any non-involved editor, as a disruptive distraction. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

If you don't personally know the people, what is the value of their names? Without a clear consensus to include the names they should not be included. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:06, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Need a new patio doin'? I'll see if me mate Fred can fit you in. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:39, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

As I said above, I think names are fine if the article topic is the criminal, but otherwise (as in this case) it has no value to the topic. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Good luck over at the grassy knoll. You might have a few to get of rid. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Disagree that the names aren't relevant. A fundamental factor of events is "who was involved". The names are inherently relevant. We exclude names of the accused in many cases to comply with BLP and err on the side of caution, but post-conviction we do not need to do that. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:39, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

"replace with x and y"

Open justice prevails. If a judge orders that juvenile names and images should be placed in the public domain, Wikipedia can't censor court rulings.

The court has also sanctioned the release of Ghey's birth name in open court. It too, should be published. Editors cannot cherry pick, whose names are published or redacted. A good example are the killers, Venables and Thompson names, both were put in the public domain. Few ask for their two names be airbrushed from history.

Justice Yip's quote gives Ghey's birth name;https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/warrington-transgender-manchester-crown-court-cheshire-justice-b2454180.html Jaymailsays (talk) 17:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

There's a more recent discussion below at "Birth name (again)" where a new consensus has been established. Your input has been requested there. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

It got added back again today. Thank you User:Martinevans123 for removing it; have you requested revdel? I'm still relatively new to this sort of angle. GenevieveDEon (talk) 18:41, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I have not requested that. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

"See also" figures

I still do not understand how Monfared's case is not relevant. Like Ghey, Monfared was LGBT and was killed due to that. While Ghey was trans, Monfared was gay; both are obviously part of the LGBTQIA+ community. So, why should this be taken down? ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 16:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation)

Many LGBTQ+ people have been killed. We have articles about various types of anti-LGBTQ+ violence already listed in the see also section. Unless an individual case is extraordinarily similar to Ghey's, it shouldn't be included there. Monfared's case is not so similar. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers ok, but why can't we mention Shafilea Ahmed's case? This is another notable homicide case in Warrington aswell. While it may not be related to gender based killings, they are both equally publicised Warrington incidents. ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 19:07, 13 November 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation)

Not similar enough. Interested readers could use Category:Murder in Cheshire, if that's what they're interested in. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Firefangledfeathers, especially when similar cases may be accessed via the article Categories, e.g. Category:LGBT-related controversies in the United Kingdom and Category:Violence against LGBT people in the United Kingdom. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I've removed a similar set of Warrington/filicide links from the Shafilea Ahmed article, added by ShawarmaFan07. I agree with the above comments that these kinds of connections between articles are better served by categories. Belbury (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Like ShawarmaFan07 I think this is relevant enough for the see also section. If the person has both relevance to the surrounding area and was killed for similar circumstances then its relevant enough for the see also section; especially since that section only has five links in it. Helper201 (talk) 21:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

There's no recommended limited number for See also links. I concede there might be an argument to aid resolution of confusion over these two murders in the same town. But they were 20 years apart and the victims had very different names. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Martinevans123 what does that supposed to prove? It doesn't matter if they were 20 years apart. When I added Murder of Tulay Goren in the see also section of Murder of Bernadette Walker, it was allowed to stay and these two incidents were 22 years apart. I also added this case (Brianna Ghey) on the Shafilea Ahmed article, and that was allowed to stay too, along with Lucy Letby. So, it really should be allowed here then. ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 08:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation)

It's not supposed to prove anything. It's just an observation. I suspect that a murder that happens in the same year is more likely to be confused with another. I'm not sure about the reflexivity of comparable "See also" links, but I guess it's really a case of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@Martinevans123 I still do not get what you mean by this. Two notable victims of homicide residing in the same town, yet they cannot be related in an article. Why not? Ahmed and Ghey literally both lived in Warrington. New wikipedia viewers and editors may not find Category: Murder in Cheshire as this isn't shown in this article. They could be website mobile users, so they cannot search easily unlike the app. ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 09:23, 17 November 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation)

Categories should be visible to all readers? Do you think there's some kind of casual between the murder of Ahmed and Ghey, i.e. violence against LGBTQ people is particularly rife in Warrington, or is it just a tragic coincidence? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the category in that "see also" section. There isn't a casual, but these two are some of the most publicised murder victims that attracted the most attention to the public and are from that town. If this article was allowed to be related on Ahmed's wiki, then why can't it be vice versa? It makes absolutely no sense. ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 16:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation)

Categories are listed at the bottom of articles. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I went down there and it isn't shown. But I still believe we need to put other notable homicides within that section; they are related as they are in the same town, with the same public attention (Lucy Letby and Shafilea Ahmed). I hope more people join here so we can actually find a consensus to whether or not other Warrington victims should be mentioned. ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 16:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation)

It's Category:Murder in Cheshire, It comes after Category:Murder committed by minors? The current consensus is not to add Murder of Shafilea Ahmed or Lucy Letby to the "See also" section here. But very happy to see other editors commenting. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Lucy Letby and the murder of Shafilea Ahmed are not relevant to this article, and should not be in the ‘See also’ section. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

But all of these people attracted the same significant amount of public attention and live in Warrington.

Lets discuss another similar thing.

All of the filicide UK articles on wikipedia included other different filicides of different people on the see also section (e.g, Murder of Star Hobson includes Louise Porton; none of the people are related to each other but they are included in the see also area as these two attracted significant public attention)

If Shafilea Ahmed, Lucy Letby, and Brianna Ghey are the most notable homicide figures in which they all live in the same town, they should be included in each other's respective see also sections. Shouldn't it? ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 13:15, 19 November 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of LDas12345, see investigation)

User:ShawarmaFan07, do you now see that there is a consensus here? Do you think you need to open an WP:RfC? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:20, 19 November 2024 (UTC)