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Talk:Nat King Cole/Archive 1

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Latest comment: 4 years ago by Ghmyrtle in topic It seems quite strange to me that's Stardust/Star Dust Is not mentioned. Why?
Archive 1Archive 2

Definitive jazz standard

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Can anyone cast light on the use of all the "Definitive Jazz Standard" designations all over the page? Is there a group making these designations? Yes, many of Cole's recordings are jazz standards. Do we need to identify each one? --SeanO 14:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Racism and attacks

Latest comment: 14 years ago5 comments5 people in discussion

Cole was attacked on stage in Alabama and it made headlines around the country, plus filmed news interviews. In a filmed interview Sinatra attributed the attack to racist hate groups... what references are there for this, and should it be mentioned here?

I think it should be mentionned here. I came to this page to learn about the Nat King Cole beating, after reading this article (photo #1). Suprised to not find anything about it. How come ? Xibe 16:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Nat was injured in a fall during the episode that included throwing anything not nailed down and yelling of racial epitaths. Nat fell across his piano bench and did go to the hospital for a back injury. I was 16 at the time, was a huge Nat fan and the actions made the newspapers and radio/tv news across the country and most of the nation was highly critical of the stupidity shown by the morons who caused the commotion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by POLLUXAKS4 (talk • contribs) 11:15, 26 January 2008 (UTC) Here's some text that I prepared for the R&B article, and it has a reference(s).

In April of 1956 three white men rushed the stage as Nat "King" Cole was performing in Birmingham, AL. One man reached Cole and hit him with a flying tackle, and then attempted to drag him off stage. Police officers swarmed over the three men, beating them with fists and nightsticks, and took them away in handcuffs. A shaken Cole, recovering in his dressing room, received an apology from the mayor of Birminghan and other officals, and was encouraged to continue his performance. Cole received a five minute long standing ovation when he returned to the stage. Although he did not resume the show, he did perform a second show for an all black audience.[1] The attack was condemned from one end of the country to the other, and even the most ardent and diehard segregationists found the incident more than a little hard to swallow.[1] Steve Pastor (talk) 16:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see the reason for the "Unbalanced" template in this section. Account appears to be objective and is cited. Unless someone believes something else should be represented here, it should be removed. Hipgnostic (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems this has been resolved, so I removed the Unbalanced template --NealMcB (talk) 20:03, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ INTERRUPTED MELODY: THE 1956 ATTACK ON NAT "KING" COLE

Anti-smoking ad

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Was it true that at the time of his death, public service announcements were playing in the US with Cole telling people not to smoke? Mike H. That's hot 05:23, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Quotation marks considered wrong

Latest comment: 15 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

I personally have no idea, but I read the following on another website:

The correct spelling is Nat King Cole without the quotation marks. King was not a nick-name but his actual name. Mr. Cole never used quotations on his name during his life, unfortunately after his death a few record releases used quotation marks and for some reason that has overtaken the overwhelming vast number of correct uses of his name. [2]

And this seems very reasonable, so I'm removing the quotation marks from "King" now. --LA2 03:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

"King was not a nickname but his actual name." Well, yes and no. It was his actual professional name. Not his actual legal name. Tom129.93.17.229 01:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Nat's actual name: Nathaniel Adams Coles. Early in his career he dropped the "s" from his last name. As to his "King" being added, an unknown individual during a Nat Cole Trio night club performance placed a paper crown on his head, and King Cole Trio was the new name.

Being a Nat King Cole fan from the time I was about 10-11 years old (1950-1)I bought many of his records, and the first album I bought was "Love Is The Thing". On the record labels it was always King Cole Trio, or in the case of his individual recordings the name would vary from Nat "King" Cole to Nat King Cole and likewise on albums. His television show was titled The Nat "King" Cole Show, and it was a good show for Cole fans who would probably never see his live performances, but it lasted only a year. Without national sponsors a national show can't make it and that was the problem. Money is necessary to put on any show and to pay the artists who perform, and in this instance those who appeared did so at minimum allowable rates. Later Perry Como, who was a gentleman's gentleman, was the first singer to have a hit television show and it was among the top shows every week. Como and Cole were both extremely popular but national sponsorship allowed Como to present a complete variety show(something Cole wasn't able to), simply because he was a Negro and that fact scared sponsors away. Just as today, if a show hits the screen and an activist group starts a campaign they can drive the program off the air. In those days it was no different. Negro's had less problems in the north and west but east and south were definite problem areas when it came to the subject of race. And Las Vegas wasn't any different, in fact, Johnny Mathis was the first Negro entertainer who not only performed but actually stayed at the hotel that he performed; he accomplished this by and through his contractual agreement. Prior to that time Negro's had to stay in motels for them or who would accept them, but the major hotels didn't allow this. This was around 1960-1, but Mathis was exceptionally popular with the young kids and with just as many adults and his audience was more white than black. By 1963 he was being paid a record $28,000 per night. Later, he would become the only black to perform before a mixed audience of blacks and whites in South Africa during the days of aparthied. He became the first black millionaire and today is extrodinarily wealthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by POLLUXAKS4 (talk • contribs) 12:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I want to move this page to Nat "King" Cole, indicating that "King" was a nickname. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 20:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

List of songs

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

What order are these songs listed? Chronological perhaps, but no years are listed. Either the years need to be added, so we see that it is chronological, or perhaps alphbetizing the list (and adding years) would make it a more useful list all around. **Someone else wrote this up until here**

I was going to make the very same suggestion.

Maybe having the songs based on decades? There's a wealth of songnames in there, but I certainly can't find details on a majority of the songs on the list.

Or even putting all of the songs into a table. Even with a miuch smaller list than this, I'd do that.

Another thing I should say is that quoting "songs of note" suggests a certain degree of bias.

Why are these and only these songs included in the list? Some of these songs are not especially well performing songs in the charts, yet songs that did perform more effectively are omitted. I think to avoid that, we should remove any songs that maybe didn't go any higher than about 50 on the billboards, or have had timely resurgences. There of course is a large number of songs that fit this bill, but each should be added appropriately and with a justification, e.g.:

Song Name Album Year Song's Importance
Some song Some Album 2005 Billboard #2
Some other song Some other Album 2006 Billboard #7
Yet another song Yet another Album 2007 Grammy award winning song "Best Vocal Performance"

(I've put this here to be quite simple and easily adaptable) Lincalinca 05:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Definitive jazz standard

Quotation of Jazz standard

A jazz standard is a tune that is widely known, performed, and recorded among jazz musicians. Stricter definitions of the term may be used; therefore no 'definitive' list of standards exists.

Why are then some songs listed as "Definitive Jazz Standard"? 213.47.179.24 17:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

A "Definitive" (usually the first, best, most influential or most well known) version of a song is that which is most accessible to the public, musicians, broadcast and entertainment professionals. Accessibility is determined by the availability and clarity of the performance. IADAMSDAY 3:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Minor change to list of songs

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I went ahead and deleted all of the red-linked songs (i.e. songs that aren't specifically referenced in an article). It makes the list look much cleaner and also makes it a little easier for a new Wikipedia user to navigate the song list. There was a also a problem with the song "I Remember You" in that the hotlink led to an article of a song by the same name by the band Skid Row. I went ahead and removed that link as well.

The list might benefit from some organization of the description of the songs (composer and the like that succeeds every listing). --DanMuSciRel 06:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Lists are too long

Latest comment: 18 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I find the lists of notable songs, performances and albums far too long, it is trivial information, and too much of it. I suggest someone who can tell the difference between regular songs and significant songs of Nat King Cole should edit it.--Soetermans 18:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

With you suggestion, I'll take a stab at his songs. --SeanO 23:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I did a first pass, removing songs which didn't say Nat King Cole to me. I've been a NKC fan for nearly 20 years, so I didn't do much damage. I'll take a more critical eye on the list later. --SeanO 00:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I think re-releases or complitation albums are also not worthy to put in.--Soetermans 12:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the term "Notable Songs" should be changed to "Selected Discography". I am opposed to limiting the list of songs since space is not an issue. If necessary they can be hidden as they are in the Wikipedia article about Frank Sinatra. Nat King Cole's recording career began in 1936 and ended in 1964. Some of his most significant and influential recordings have never been heard by the current public. A few months ago I overheard a younger "fortysomething" talking about the great new song called "These Foolish Things (Remind Me of You)" that Rod Stewart wrote and recorded on one of his new Great American Songbook CD's. There was no acknowlegment of "Rod Stewart's" debt to the Nat King Cole recording. "These Foolish Things" along with "Stardust" are among the many songs that Nat recorded that were never issued as singles and therefore never charted on Billboard or anywhere else. IADAMSDAY 3:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
That song list is crazy, I've moved it here. The articles should be contained within Nat's albums. What on earth does (George and Ira Gershwin Smithsonian Museum Definitive American Standard 1943 Nat King Cole Trio Version) actually mean?? All that could be within a song article, along with a mention of Nat's notable contribution. PLEASE LET'S CREATE SONG ARTICLES!!

Discography (songs)

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Let's get to work. Gareth E Kegg 20:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Title of the song in Japanese

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Do someone know the title of that song he sings in Japanese (according to the article)? I can't find that album! "In 1983, an archivist for Electrola Records, Capitol Records' subsidiary in Holland, discovered some songs Cole had recorded but that had never been released, including one in Japanese and another in Spanish (Tu Eres Tan Amable). Capitol released them later that year as the LP Unreleased." Might be very interesting to include, I think. Necrotranson 23:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Two of the sections are completely contradicting one another.

"Making television history" concludes: Commenting on the lack of sponsorship his show received, Cole quipped shortly after its demise, "Madison Avenue is afraid of the dark." This statement, plus the passing of time, has fueled the urban legend that Cole's show had to close down despite enormous popularity. In fact, the Cole program was routinely beaten by the competition at ABC, then riding high with its travel and western shows.

Which is followed by "Cancellation and Racism" which begins: The TV show was ultimately cancelled [sic] because potential sponsors shied away from showcasing a black artist.

Which is it?? 68.92.212.166 (talk) 04:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Cancellation and racism

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

On top of complaints listed in the 'contradiction' discussion, this section has a problem with keeping a neutral tone. It also seriously lacks sources for the claims its making. For now I'm going to put a neutrality and a citation tag on it. dmkrantz 17:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

This section should not be titled "cancelation and racism" since only the first line discusses this topic. The rest of the section discusses a seperate event not related to the television show or it's cancellation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekanning (talk • contribs) 20:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations & references

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 10:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Nat King Cole as first African American variety show host

Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This is incorrect. Pianist and performer Hazel Scott was actually the first African American to host a variety show. Her "The Hazel Scott Show" premiered in July 1950 and was cancelled at the end of September 1950, a casualty of the blacklist in television. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.132.252 (talk) 20:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Corrected with "one of the first" Hipgnostic (talk) 17:57, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Move

Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Should we move this page to Nat "King" Cole? It is, after all, a nickname, and he is credited as such in many sources. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I guess I'd leave the royal nicknames unquoted where they became the prevailing showbiz name under which the artists recorded and performed. Like Duke Ellington and Count Basie, Nat King Cole's royal title was almost always included, usually without quotes, in liner notes and journalism and books. I don't know whether this fits our "common name" guideline, but the logic is similar. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

King Cole Swingers

Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Does anyone have a reference for the "King Cole Swingers" (someone just changed "and three other musicians" to "and two other musicians", making the quartet a trio [3]).

According to an article on Oscar Moore, the first musician NKC hired at the time was Lee Young. Then, with high recommendations by Lionel Hampton, he added Moore on guitar, and Wesley Prince on bass, making it a quartet. Some time later, Young didn't show up for a gig at the Swanee Inn in Los Angeles, and the drumless trio was born, and became a success. ("Oscar Moore" by Michael Price in The Guitar in Jazz: An Anthology by James Sallis, University of Nebraska Press, 1996, p 77, ISBN 9780803242500 [4] ([5]).

That article doesn't mention a specific name for either formation, nor does it say when exactly this happened, but the general time frame (late 1930s) and location (Los Angeles metropolitan area) more or less match the sentence in our article. Does anyone have a reference for more exact dates, for the name "King Cole Swingers" and for the salary mentioned in our article ("US$90 ($1,427 in current dollar terms) per week")? Is this too from Nat King Cole: An Intimate Biography, Maria Cole with Louie Robinson, 1971? (that's the reference given at the end of the following paragraph) ---Sluzzelin talk 18:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Notable TV Appearances

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Nat King Cole appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show (Season 9, 404.9-26 18-Mar-1956) with Cesare Siepi (not: Cesare Siep"e"), the famous opera singer, considered to have been one of the finest basses of the post war period. (For more information, see WIKIPEDIA (english) about this italian opera singer). I shall correct this in the main article--91.21.126.181 (talk) 13:29, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I could make this correction, but if the page op did it, it might be more meaningful and lasting...Nat King Cole's 1949 film appearance was titled "Make Believe Ballroom," not what it is called on the page. Thanks 2602:30A:2EDF:19B0:A80D:FD56:D434:F9E7 (talk) 07:03, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Someone said (in the career section) inspired by John Cena. Does someone know what this SHOULD say? ***Note - I removed the reference to Cena and put in Earl Hines. hope this was ok. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.79.14.69 (talk) 18:28, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Death reason

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The article currently, 2016, states: "In September 1964, Cole began losing weight and suffering from severe back pain.".

However had, it is not clear as to WHY he lost weight. It also is not clear why he died either. Can the article be made more accurate here? Surely the reason as to why he lost weight could be mentioned in the very first sentence. 2A02:8388:1600:C80:BE5F:F4FF:FECD:7CB2 (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

gunilla hutton

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

What about the kid he had with gunilla hutton — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.40.214.212 (talk) 18:04, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Smaller section within Legacy

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Cole was so influential, a number of people named their children after him. Is there such a precedent in this biographical entries, including this kind of info? A21sauce (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Cole both did, and did not, continue to perform in the South?

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The article reads, "In 1956 Cole was assaulted on stage during a concert in Birmingham, Alabama ... He did not finish the concert and never again performed in the southern United States ... Cole said he wanted to forget the incident and continued to play for segregated audiences in the south."

So which is it? Did he "never" perform in the US South again, or did he continue to perform as the next paragraph says? I don't know much about Cole (which is why I was reading the article) but they can't both be correct. IAmNitpicking (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I don't know. Looks like I'll have to consult the books on that one. It wasn't a very good article to begin with. It's good that you caught that.
Vmavanti (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

His daughter not in Lede

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

His daughter was notable enough to be somewhere other than a footnote in this article.--169.0.4.50 (talk) 14:53, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Happy 100th!

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Nat King Cole - Autumn Leaves — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.6.219.161 (talk) 19:40, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Place/Date of Birth?

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The short bio stats give his birthplace as Montgomery, AL. However, the actual paragraph of the article's bio section says that he was born in NYC. Which is it? He's also given two different birthdays. Mpaniello (talk) 05:31, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

No mention of Cole as pianist

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

He's an important and outstanding jazz pianist, yet that's hardly mentioned. The records he made as sideman pianist are mentioned nowhere. Why does the the list of recordings not mention those where he wasn't leader? That's not the usual pattern for a musician page.

I learnt about his playing from musicians recommending the Lester Young Trio record - with Buddy Rich and Lester Young, perhaps the greatest in the world on their instruments at the time, he not only holds his own - doing the work of a bass player as well! - he steals the show. And he was influential: "His deep "groove," harmonic awareness, supple phrasing, touch, dynamics, taste, and just plain delicious music had a profound effect on the following, to name only a few: Oscar Peterson, Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, Al Haig, Bill Evans, Wynton Kelly, Ahmad Jamal, Monty Alexander, and many others..." i.e. most of the leading jazz pianists of the 1950s. https://jazzprofiles.blogspot.com/2011/07/nat-king-cole-jazz-pianist.html 122.106.31.40 (talk) 04:41, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Citizen Kane

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The claim that Nat King Cole appears in the film Citizen Kane is apocryphal and has been debunked. It arose through a misunderstanding of a casual remark Orson Welles once made about seeing Cole perform in a Los Angeles nightclub in the early 1940s. I deleted this particular film credit from the summary at the end of the article, but the deleted credit was restored and continues to be presented as though factually true when it is utterly erroneous misinformation, i.e. a falsehood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.206.83.213 (talk) 21:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, confirmed (to my satisfaction, at least) at https://citizenkanebook.com/citizen-kane-faq/#didNat . I've reverted the false information. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:35, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Fight with casino boss

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In “ The Green Felt Jungle”, the 1963 expose of Las Vegas, the appendix at the end says Cole knocked out the boss at a casino - a mobster. Usualy a risky move, but there was so much negative publicity about Vegas at the time, and Cole was so well known, that nothing came of it. Any info on this incident? 2A00:23C3:E284:900:F120:6586:B3DD:42D1 (talk) 18:44, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

It seems quite strange to me that's Stardust/Star Dust Is not mentioned. Why?

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I mean, his "Love is the Thing" album is his only number one album. Could that be because Stardust is on it? 464hudson (talk) 22:13, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the Discography page, it was one of his more minor hits, in 1957. Why do you think it needs to be mentioned separately? Having said that, there is a lot of work needed in this article on his musical career. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
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