Talk:Prince Salim's Invasion of Mewar

Problem related to the draft

@MicrobiologyMarcusHello!! I kindly request your guidance regarding the main problems related to this draft so that I may improve it. I am unable to identify the mistakes in this article; please guide me on how the draft does not adhere to a neutral point of view. I made an effort to avoid citing any sources from before 1947 and have removed the one source that was from before that time. All the remaining sources are reliable and thoroughly explain the topic of the draft. Despite this, the draft was rejected. Please advise me on how to improve the grammar and any mistakes I may have made in this article. Thank you. Kemilliogolgi (talk) 09:48, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Please slow down and don't spam the project. I left a message on your talk page and have now responded to the same message on my talk page. microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish·growths)} 12:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

@MicrobiologyMarcus so should I create any other article including this skirmish.If it is a low quality article,I have to create any other article and have to merge it with that.If you guide me or advice me how to improve my article creation skills,than it will be much helpful to me.And I am unable to understand that if the all Sources are reliable and clearly explaining the event than what are the mistakes in it.If this article need more sources than I can do that too.Thanks!! Kemilliogolgi (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kemilliogolgi: forget more articles, I'm suggesting you slow down with the article creation and be more careful in writing your drafts. In the mean time, can you point to where, in the source material you are using, other secondary sources have described the material you've written about as Jahangir's Mewar campaign or any variation thereof? My concern right now is that these articles are WP:SYNTH and that tends to be a large red flag for WP:OR, I can't find "Jahangir's Mewar campaign" in the first couple of references. microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish·growths)} 21:22, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Giving the context of citations

@MicrobiologyMarcus Kemilliogolgi (talk) 10:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC) Sure!! Let me assist you with the sources and their context about this battle Source:-1) https://books.google.com/books/about/Medieval_India_Culture_and_Thought.html?id=oIgcAAAAMAAJ Cheak the pg no. 45 Context-"The Mughals led by Prince salim and Man Singh invaded mewar and amar Singh was defeated" Source:-2) https://books.google.com/books/about/Advanced_Study_in_the_History_of_Medieva.html?id=-TsMl0vSc0gC#v=snippet&q=prince%20salim%20defeated%20amar%20singh%20mewar&f=false Cheak page no. 246 Context- "In 1599 he deputed prince Salim (future Jahangir) and Raja Man Singh to try their luck against Mewar but to no avail. The prince stayed back at Ajmer and instructed Man Singh to pursue a policy of destruction and devastation in Mewar which earned a bad name for the imperial armies and incurred the hostility of the entire populace of Mewar who had started reclaiming their deserted lands and habitats since 1585. Rana Amar Singh challenged the imperial armies in the plains but suffered a defeat and retreated to the hills albeit the people of the villages and towns, scarcely populated,"

Source-3) https://books.google.com/books/about/History_of_Medieval_India.html?id=nMWSQuf4oSIC#v=snippet&q=1599&f=false

Pg 81 2nd paragraph

Context- "After the death of his father in 1597, Amar Singh carried on the war against the Mughals. The latter took the offensive once again in 1599 and Raja Man Singh and Prince Salim were sent to invade Mewar. Amar Singh was defeated and his country was devastated by the Mughal troops. The war had to be stopped because Man Singh had to leave for Bengal where Usman Khan had revolted. The bad health of Akbar did"

Source-4) https://books.google.com/books/about/History_of_India_and_Pakistan_pt_1_Great.html?id=OgpuAAAAMAAJ

Pg194 Context- "same as that in above source(Refer-Source-3)"

Source-5) https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.10571 Pg-124-125 Context-territories captured Also the remaining sources claims the same , kindly cheak the sources and give

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kemilliogolgi (talk • contribs)

@Kemilliogolgi: yes I understand, I went through some of the sources. Your research is thorough but I'm afraid it appears to be original research. My question is where have other sources describe the battles your compiled here as Jahangir's Mewar campaign? microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish·growths)} 14:12, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kemilliogolgi same question but for Prince Salim's Mewar Campaign now that that is the phrase in the lead. microbiologyMarcus ^{(petri dish·growths)} 17:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@MicrobiologyMarcusSure!!! I am here to assist you with sources i found for Prince Salim's invasion of Mewar.

Source-1)

https://books.google.com/books/about/History_of_Medieval_India.html?id=nMWSQuf4oSIC#v=snippet&q=1599&f=false

Cheak pg 81 2nd paragraph-Akbar(1556-1605)

Context

"The latter took the offensive once again in 1599 A.D. and Raja Man singh and Prince salim were sent to invade Mewar"

The source clearly mentioned that Prince Salim later known as Jahangir had sent to mewar.The topic might be "Prince Salim's invasion of mewar" because the Prince salim had led the invasion.

If the "Prince Salim's invasion of Mewar" is a better heading,So I will change it.

If you need more sources that mentioned this, Please cheak the references list.For further info about this Article you may tag me here.I will surely reply you.

Thanks!! Kemilliogolgi (talk) 04:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Advice for the creator.

@Kemilliogolgi, If you're aiming to write articles related to war or battles, it's beneficial to read high-rated articles in that domain. Doing so can help you craft articles in an encyclopedic style. Rather than creating new articles, focus on improving existing ones. This approach will enhance your overall experience. Imperial^[AFCND] 13:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Result

@Kemilliogolgi please provide quotation from non accessible sources that this event is Mughal victory. As far as I can see from this source Mewar Saga. p-81 it says Akbar's first attempt to subdue Pratap's son came in. 1599 when he sent Prince Salim on an expedition to Mewar. Apart from establishing outposts at Ontala, Mohi, Bagore, Mandal, Mandalgarh and Chittor, this campaign achieved little. Indeed, these outposts soon became targets of guerrilla attacks by the Rajputs. In one such assault the Mughal commander of Bagore was killed. This was foilled up by the recapture of Rampura. In another attack, the Rajputs captured Ontala and s!e'.v its Mughal commander Kayum Khan.

And from another Rs Akbar The Great Vol 1.Salim, however, did not put Ins heart into the expedition and “from self indulgence, wine drinking and had cotnpanj spent much time in Ajmer” He sent an arm) to Udaipur and Intn*elf remained at Ajmer liana Amar Singh came from another side nnd plundered Malpnra and some other prosperous places in the Mughal occupied Mewar The prince, therefore, sent Madho Smgli to encounter the rana who, however, retreated to the hills, and on the way made a night attack on the imperialists Cut Rnza Quh, Lai Beg Mubariz Beg, Ahf Khan and others stood Grto and the rana retired Salim returned from Ajmer without accomplishing the task assigned to him it doesn't say mughal victory so kindly give qoutation from sources otherwise it looks like u r doing, WP:SYNTH and WP:OR Sudsahab (talk) 09:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Ranadhira and @Rawn3012 as I'm a little inexperienced with Rajput historiography. Sudsahab (talk) 09:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado Hold on, but that's what you did in Bahmani-Vijayanagara War (1375 - 1378) when the sources contradicted the results of the event and I even showed how @Kemilliogolgi misquoted a source Sudsahab (talk) 10:06, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sudsahab, the sources I cited clearly says the Mughals abandoned the campaign after the victory against the Mewar. Do not mix this with other articles. Imperial^[AFCND] 10:11, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to mix this article with others but when the sources contradict the results then it would be better for us to remove the results parameter Sudsahab (talk) 10:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

No. What happened there is, so called it as a "retreat of Bahmanis", and some called it as "Peace agreement" and some as "Successful campaign of Mujahid". Here is, the "Mughals defeated Amar Singh, and abandoned the further campaign" quoting from R. C Majumdar, "In 1600 Akbar made another attempt against Mewar when the expedition led by Prince Salim and Räjä Män Singh defeated Pratap's successor, Amar Singh, and devastated the country; but the expedition came to an abrupt end due to the recall of Man Singh whose services were urgently required in Bengal.". That is not a contradiction, but a continuation. Imperial^[AFCND] 10:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sudsahab, none of your quotation above contradicts the quote I've cited. Please stop edit warring. Imperial^[AFCND] 10:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sudsahab, what you've quoted is a part of the campaign. Not the common outcome. The outcome was quoted in the earlier version in which it clearly states the Mughals defeated Amar Singh. No sources you provided says "Amar Singh defeated the Mughals" as the outcome of the campaign. The final outcome was the victory of the Mughals per the sources. Imperial^[AFCND] 10:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I guess you misunderstood me that I'm trying to make this event show as Amar Singh's victory instead I'm trying to corroborate this article with the sources presented before you. I never said it was Mewar or Amar Singh's victory but surely it was an unaccomplished Mughal campaign. Sudsahab (talk) 10:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

No dear. Per the sources I've earlier cited (now you've reverted it), explicitly states that the "Man Singh and Prince Salim defeated Amar Singh", even three or four sources continuously. It says right after that the Mughals abandoned the furter campaign for other campaigns in Bengal. So it is clearly a victory of Mughals. I've taken this to MILHIST. Let's wait. Imperial^[AFCND] 10:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

You're an experienced editor, you should know that we can't apply majoritarianism with the sources rather we give conclusions of every source. Thanks for taking this issue to MILHIST Sudsahab (talk) 10:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Every source states the victory of the Mughals. And they does states the reason for the abandon the campaign after the victory. In 1600 Akbar made another attempt against Mewar when the expedition led by Prince Salim and Rājā Mān Singh defeated Pratap's successor, Amar Singh, and devastated the country; but the expedition came to an abrupt end due to the recall of Man Singh whose services were urgently required in Bengal., taken from Majumdar. The abandoned the campaign after the victory. So it is not "See Aftermath", but "Mughal victory". Imperial^[AFCND] 11:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I have taken rest out of Wikipedia for a while.If there is any doubt regarding the article you can ping me at my Talk page.For your better assistance I am adding the sources about the results.All the reviewers are recommended to check all the sources carefully.All the sources added are WP:Reliable and comleately describes the context.I have already cited the sources regarding the results of this campaign.

The source I previously cited, along with the source cited by Imperial, that you have reverted without providing adequate reasoning, explicitly states that the Mughals defeated Amar Singh. This is what should have been mentioned in the infobox. The subsequent withdrawal of the Mughals is not contradictory, but rather pertains to what occurred immediately after their victory. They abandoned the campaign after achieving victory, not because they were defeated by Mewar. Therefore, I am content with reverting the change.

•Citations Regarding the results of campaign:

Hope this will help you.Thanks!! Kemilliogolgi (talk) 11:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Checked the two sources that given above claims there is a contradiction. The Mewar Saga, written by Dr. Manekar, is a Journalist, and not a Historian. The second book, Akbar the great vol1 does says that the Mughals force "Rana Amar retreat", that is clearly not a contradiction to the current status of the article. Imperial^[AFCND] 11:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

References

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Nice work

North8000 (talk) 14:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)