Talk:Pro-ana

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Requested move 3 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. —usernamekiran (talk) 13:12, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

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Pro-ana → Promotion of anorexia – The current name is not very clear to WP:READERS who are not familiar with the subject. I propose expanding this abbreviation. It will be more recognizable and equally precise. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:00, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Pro-ana is an unclear title. Also for some reason I find it rather uncomfortable. Super Ψ Dro 21:28, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 23 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Pro-ana by consensus in this discussion. (Note that the RM was originally headlined with the proposal Pro-ana subculture, until Special:Diff/1232966402, 6 July 2024.) (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 03:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

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Promotion of anorexia → Pro-ana – The umbrella term of 'pro-ana' in online spaces includes both the traditional 'encouraging anorexia as a lifestyle choice' definition as well as people who are not ready for recovery from their eating disorders, but desire a safe space to talk about them, such as venting about current struggles or sharing harm reduction tips to maintain as semi-normal a life as possible while struggling with their mental illness. Personal discomfort with the terminology shouldn't take precidence over the historical usage (documented as early as 2007). Ju1c3machine (talk) 07:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Queen of Hearts ^talk 00:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• fixed malformed Queen of Hearts ^talk 07:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

@Ju1c3machine The previous discussion (see the section above) moved this page from “pro-ana” to this title because “pro-ana” was seen as unclear. I assume you disagree, correct?

Also, it would be helpful to find some evidence to back up the idea that “pro-ana” is the most common name for this topic in reliable sources, like a Google Ngrams graph.

Anyhow, I’m currently supportive of this move because the article clearly still uses “pro-ana” throughout. I will do some more research once I have access to my computer tomorrow. Toadspike [Talk] 07:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Correct, I disagree because 'pro-ana' is the term used within the community to refer to itself, and doesn't always refer to actual promotion of anorexia, if that makes sense- the term grew past its original etymology. Proana actually seems to be the more commonly used term in recent years compared to pro-ana or promotion of anorexia (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=proana,pro-ana,promotion%20of%20anorexia&hl=en). Interestingly enough, on the chart itself you can see the steep decline of usage after 2001, due to public outrage from an Oprah special on the subject. Ju1c3machine (talk) 07:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Move back to Pro-ana: Ngram chart here. The overwhelming common name seems to be "pro-ana". Perhaps the low-participation RM of 2022 should just be reverted. I don't see any lack of clarity in that term, and there is no hatnote in the article that indicates that it is ambiguous. It is clearly more WP:CONCISE as well as more common. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

See Karen Kellock on THE MATURE ANOREXiC and you'll change your mind on this. It can be seen here: https://www.linkedin.com/article/edit/7211342012694872064/ 208.92.185.238 (talk) 18:16, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a reputable source that's not a social media post (especially not one that you need to log in to read)? Also, doubtful that I will change my mind on this given that I've spent 10+ years in these communities; while I'm fully aware of the harmful effects of them, I do think that the studies in place showing that they can provide a useful sense of support for some affected individuals means that we should try to frame the article as neutrally as possible, as per Wikipedia policy. Ju1c3machine (talk) 18:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, for future reference, you might not want to point to the writings of what appears to be an absolute lunatic to try and back up your point. Ju1c3machine (talk) 18:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Include "subculture"? (I don't think fixing a malformed nom makes me "involved", but feel free to do whatever if you disagree.) Queen of Hearts ^talk 00:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I included it based off of the wording of the “Punk subculture” page- I think it’s worth emphasizing that this is in fact a subculture where people find community, not just a random toxic internet phenomenon. Ju1c3machine (talk) 08:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Do not include "subculture": Regardless of whether it's a subculture or not, the word is not necessary for identification of the topic, and it's not commonly included. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The same arguments could be made towards punk subculture, which I’m using as a reference for consistency reasons. Ju1c3machine (talk) 16:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. Pro-ana is currently a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT; it currently redirects to this topic and is more WP:CONCISE than "pro-ana subculture". It does not commonly refer to any other subject. But Punk does not redirect to Punk subculture. Punk is a disambiguation page. The subculture is not a dominant meaning of "punk". For example, "punk" might refer to the punk rock music genre rather than the subculture. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Very fair point, I concede to renaming the page to simply Pro-ana or Proana, depending on which spelling is more common. Ju1c3machine (talk) 16:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. "Pro-ana" is clearly more common than "Proana", as is shown in the Ngram that I linked above. It also seems easier to read. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed edits

"It is often referred to simply as pro-ana or ana." --> "It's often referred to as proana, pro-ana, or simply ana."

"Medical professionals treating eating disorders have long noted that patients in recovery programs often "symptom pool", banding closely together for emotional support and validation. In this context, people with anorexia may collectively normalize their condition, defending it not as an illness but as an accomplishment of self-control and an essential part of their identity. Starving oneself becomes perceived as a lifestyle choice rather than an illness." --> "Medical professionals treating eating disorders have long noted that patients in recovery programs often "symptom pool", banding closely together for emotional support and validation. In this context, people with anorexia may collectively normalize their condition, defending it not as an illness but as an accomplishment of self-control and an essential part of their identity, with some members of these online communities going as far as claiming that starving oneself is a lifestyle choice rather than an illness. These 'lifestyle' claims may be a symptom of anosognosia. Other community members band together for support in managing their illnesses, such as sharing harm reduction tips and having others to talk to about their experiences that are going through the same thing. Many individuals in pro-ana communities use the phrase "pro for myself, not anyone else" to indicate that they are only interested in furthering their own disorders, not encouraging anyone else to imitate their behavior."

"Share information on reducing the side-effects of anorexia." --> "Share information on harm reduction methods." (context: harm reduction is more neutral terminology, and harm reduction is shared for more eating disorders than just anorexia- 'proana' as aterm has evolved to encompass the entire eating disorder community)

Addition to "Social support vs. exacerbation of illness": Some studies, however, claim that the link between pro-ana websites and increased incidence of eating disorders are not strongly linked; instead, these communities have just increased the visibility of those affected. (citations Davis, Jennifer. “Pro‐anorexia sites – a patient’s perspective.” Child and Adolescent Mental Health, vol. 13, no. 2, 7 Apr. 2008, pp. 97–97, https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1475-3588.2008.00489_3.x.; Lyons, Elizabeth J., et al. “Pro-Anorexics and Recovering Anorexics Differ in Their Linguistic Internet Self-Presentation.” Journal of Psychosomatic Research, vol. 60, no. 3, Mar. 2006, pp. 253–256, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jpsychores.2005.07.017.; Mulveen, Ruaidhri, and Julie Hepworth. “An Interpretative Phenomenological Analysis of Participation in a Pro-Anorexia Internet Site and Its Relationship with Disordered Eating.” Journal of Health Psychology, vol. 11, no. 2, 1 Mar. 2006, pp. 283–296, pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16464925/, https://doi.org/10.1177/1359105306061187; Eichenberg, Christiane, et al. “Pro-Ana-Foren Im Internet.” Psychotherapeut, vol. 56, no. 6, 11 Sept. 2011, pp. 492–500, https://doi.org/10.1007/s00278-011-0861-0. [link to this source's abstract in English https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225548662_Pro-Ana-Foren_im_Internet]) It's possible that health professionals and academics are eager to place blame on these communities because of this increased visibility and being an "easy target" for understanding the complex problem of root causes of eating disorders. (Blodgett Salafia, Elizabeth H., et al. “Perceptions of the Causes of Eating Disorders: A Comparison of Individuals with and without Eating Disorders.” Journal of Eating Disorders, vol. 3, no. 1, 15 Sept. 2015, jeatdisord.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40337-015-0069-8, https://doi.org/10.1186/s40337-015-0069-8.) It's also worth nothing that the cultural standards around eating and thinness are not so different from those endorsed by mainstream media, and focusing on pro-ana communities deflects attention from the fact that eating disorders stem from a larger societal problem. Ju1c3machine (talk) 10:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Another proposed edit: adding a link to Wintergirls, a 2009 novel that includes use of pro-ana websites. Ju1c3machine (talk) 06:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)