Talk:Prudence Farrow

Old comment

Prudence Farrow explained years later that she was just trying to take Transcendental Meditation seriously. She said in Mojo magazine, September 2008: "They were trying to be cheerful, but I wished they'd go away. I don't think they realized what the training was all about." (thanks, Lennonfan11 - regawrhhrh, Iceland) http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=148

Someone could add this if they want.

It was a different world. The Beatles weren't American; they didn't share Americans' distress over the War in Vietnam, the generation gap, the loss of faith in religious institutions, the fear of Russian ICBMs, the threat of the robber barons, the proliferation of guns. Eastern religions offered a new perspective on divinity and humanity. The promise of direct experience of God was surely enticing to Prudence and millions of Americans who flocked to India in search of escape from all the myriad ills of American nationalism and culture: racism, inequality, jingoism, masculinism, Americanism, capitalism. The Beatles were riding high; the Farrows were declining from theatrical glory into a morass of aimless, pointless, celebrity-ogling and Hollywood fandom.

I went to India in November, 1972, seeking the mystical divine knowledge that might bring me into contact with an otherworldly realm of experience, following the promise of access to Jung's Universal Unconscious -- a new, cosmic consciousness -- the opening of the third eye which sees all.

What I found was excellent free marijuana, growing wild and abundantly. I failed in my religious quest, and discovered that very few similar pilgrims could actually claim to have found the glorious, boundless bliss promised by Eastern gurus. Those who had, it seemed to me, had descended into an abyss of solitary withdrawal. They were as divorced from the world as dessicated frogs in dried-up mud flats. Conversation with them was impossibly drab.

I had fallen in love with Prudence in 1967, when nobody knew her. She was incredibly beautiful and quiet. I was afraid to tell her I loved her. It would have broken a spell. Funfree (talk) 10:27, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Notability

The subject appears to be notable for only one event. If so, then there's a conflict with WP:BLP1E. Everything we say about her connection to the song could be moved to another article. Her career as a producer doesn't appear to be notable. I'd be inclined to merge the content and make this a redirect. Any other thoughts?   Will Beback  talk  21:21, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I understand your concern and the principle of BLP1E, but it seems like more than one event to me. There is the song of course and then her work as a producer on multiple films. The problem is that her film work doesn't seem to have gotten that much press. Let's look around a little bit more and see if we can document her film career more thoroughly. Then we can talk again, maybe even get an outside opinion since this case is a bit on the borderline. Thanks for you input.-- — Kbob • Talk • 03:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Producers tend to be among the less notable entertainment professionals. While many sources mention the subject, most are concerned solely with the Beatles song. FWIW, her actual involvement with the Beatles seems to have been quite limited even in India. Unfortunately, if we expand that section it will tend to include material that could be construed as negative, such as concerning her mental health. Can we find any more sources that refer to her life beyond that one visit?   Will Beback  talk  03:31, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's a few we can look through. It seems she may have also received some press for her association with Maharishi, meditation and yoga that was outside the context of The Beatles. She is also noted for her famous family as her sister and mom were famous actresses and she was also Frank Sinatra's sister in law etc. And then there is her film career of course. But not too much on that.-- — Kbob • Talk • 03:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible Sources: [1][2][3][4] [5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

• Crooner's Kin Has Her Own Institute

The Hartford Courant (1923-1984) - Hartford, Conn. Date: Oct 24, 1967 Frank Sinatra's sister-in-law, who once wanted to be a nun, has opened a Yoga institute in the heart of Brahmin Boston.

• Mia Farrow Flies to India with Guru

Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file) - Chicago, Ill. Date: Jan 24, 1968 Mia Farrow, estranged actress wife of Frank Sinatra, left the United States for India tonight with her favorite guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogo-- — Kbob • Talk • 03:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow, you're busy!

• [12][13] [14] These just seem to be more references to India.
• [15] This seems like a trivial mention.
• [16][17][18] Brief mentions of opening a non-notable Yoga Institute, having thought of being a nun, and using LSD.
• [19] A very brief mention of optioning a book.
• [20] An announcement of an invitation-only reading of excerpts of a one-man show?
• [21][22] A tangential involvement in a murder case.

I can't believe that we'd write an article about someone for these reasons, but I suppose a large number of trivial mentions build up to something.   Will Beback  talk  04:56, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree there is a lack of major articles on the woman. At the same time I'd have a hard time categorizing her as a one event BLP. Her most notable mention is of course Dear Prudence. But there is also media coverage on her relationship with Maharishi, going to India with Mia, the yoga studio, teaching TM etc. Which are all independent of The Beatles and could be seen as at least one more event and then there is the movie producer stuff and lastly the famous relatives/murder. Why don't we take it to the BLPN and see what others say? I'd be happy to go with whatever is the consensus. -- — Kbob • Talk • 19:08, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

BLPN is the place to talk about what goes into a biography. AFD is the place to talk about whether there should be a biography.   Will Beback  talk  20:26, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I won't pursue an AFD. While I do think that the fact of having inspired a Beatles' song is worth including in a biography, I don't think it establishes notability by itself. The subject seems like a fairly private individual and hasn't done the sorts of things that automatically bring notability. On the other hand she comes from a celebrity family and has been mentioned in many sources, at least for India. She has two other siblings with articles who are arguably even less notable, so the actual standards are lower than they aspire to be.   Will Beback  talk  09:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

OK thanks for the clarification on BLPN and AFD. The article is tagged so let's let it sit for a while and see if any other editors are concerned about the notability issue. If so they can join this discussion and we can proceed.-- — Kbob • Talk • 17:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

If the TM editors want this article then it's fine with me. I placed the tag and I'll remove it.   Will Beback  talk  21:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Huh? Not sure who the 'TM editors' are. Do you mean you and I are the TM editors? Anyway I am fine with the tag remaining on the article as I mentioned above, I was simply asking for some outside input since we have slightly different perspectives on the deletion/combine articles issue. Overall, I think we have improved the article nicely and added many new sources. Thanks for participating.-- — Kbob • Talk • 17:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Somebody said, "Producers tend to be among the less notable entertainment professionals." If they'd said "gaffers" or "caterers", I wouldn't complain. But producers?! That's absurd.

Speaking of producers, I note that people here tend to focus on Prudence's connection with her sister and mother, but it was her father who was the big shot of the family. I met Maureen while making a Bell Telephone Hour Christmas show. She was a movie star, singer, and great admirer of my father. I knew Prudence briefly, but fell for her like a ton of bricks. But John Farrow was a huge name in Hollywood, a naval commander, and a brilliant producer, director, and screenwriter. He had a charisma beyond compare. If anybody in the family was notable, it was he. Funfree (talk) 11:03, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Timeline

• Farrow first learned Transcendental Meditation in 1966, while a student at UCLA, having been encouraged by her sister, Mia to "investigate the teachings" of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

I think the last half of that may be contradicted by other sources. I'm pretty certain I've seen sources that say Mia didn't learn TM before late 1967. While it's possible that she had heard about it a year or more earlier and recommended it, that seems unlikely. Do we have any idea what the source is for her encouraging her sister to learn TM in 1966?   Will Beback  talk  09:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the phrase as I am not aware of any source for it. We can always add it back in if a source is found.-- — Kbob • Talk • 17:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Prudence was informed about TM by a friend of her brother's .She started in the summer of 1966 at UCLA,She was not a student at UCLA except for this course. Her sister started in India in 1968. Prudence told Mia about TM. Albert Bruns

"Prudence told Mia about TM"? What is that supposed to mean? "Prudence was informed about TM by a friend of her brother's"! Mia "started in India"? These assertions are all ridiculous, as was the statement that looking into Prudence's trip to India might reveal concerns about her "mental health". TM and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi were big news. "Newsweek", "Time", and the newspapers were full of stories about it. Seeking out superior mental health is not the same as admitting to mental illness. There was much talk about positive psychology, Scientology, self-realization, Eckankar, est, etc., in the air in those days. These were all quite popular movements; I got into them myself. Prudence was simply one among millions of Americans who were in tune with the times and could afford the airfare. It may be true that Prudence was drawn into TM, or at least influenced, by a friend of her brother's, but everybody had heard about TM, and I doubt that Mia "started in India", especially if she flew there in the company of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi! Funfree (talk) 11:38, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm extremely embarrassed about, and apologetic for my reaction to your message, Mr. Bruns. I didn't realize it was you, and that the information was authoritative. I, too, have experienced the distress of seeing my own words and concrete knowledge publicly challenged and contradicted by ignoramuses. I'm sorry to have questioned your statements, and embarrassed to find myself among the swarm of know-nothings.

Having read Prudence's CV and resumé, I'm most impressed by her accomplishments and learning. I didn't realize she is a producer, linguist, scholar, PhD, teacher, actress, director, author, grandmother, and so much more. The scope and erudition of her published articles is amazing. If she remembers Marshall Price from 1966-7, you might tell her she still raises my pulse; I fell for her at first sight; I love her still -- and I really resented that guy who considered himself her boyfriend! But I'm over it now; I hope it wasn't you. Funfree (talk) 12:31, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

feedback request on sources

I've updated the section on Farrow's education and career (writer, speaking and teaching positions, etc.). I'd like feedback from other editors on the sources I've used. Are they acceptable per WP:Primary and/or are they sufficient for the info cited?: "She has taught Transcendental Meditation in NW Florida since 1970."; Information about books she has written (Publications by Prudence F. Bruns, PhD); and university teaching positions, etc. (curriculum vitae, Prudence F. Bruns). Yay or nay? Octopet (talk) 21:38, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the number one issue those materials raise is whether the article has the right name. It appears that she is mostly known as "Bruns" rather than "Farrow".

Self-published sources may be used for assertions that are not self-serving. Things like which schools they attended. I don't see a problem with using those sources for that material.   Will Beback  talk  22:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay thank you Octopet (talk) 23:41, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I say keep the article's name unchanged. Hollywood celebrities always attract more attention than scholars. Dr. Brun has certainly made a name for herself among American Sanskrit experts, meditation coaches, students of Indian and Ayurvedic medicine, etc., but will always be remembered in the public mind as the woman who was known to the world at large as Prudence Farrow, muse of The Beatles, sister of Mia, daughter of John Farrow and Maureen O'Sullivan, beautiful Hollywood movie star. Funfree (talk) 12:54, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Error Correction

Prudence Bruns' thesis was on pulse diagnosis In Ayurveda (Indian Medicine) not Chinese medicine. Her thesis was published and is available at Amazon and in University of California at Berkeley library. Her desire to be a nun and use of LSD were years previous to starting TM which she started at least two years before her sister Mia Farrow did. Albert Bruns — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albertbruns (talk • contribs) 17:19, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I'm sorry that no one saw this and responded earlier. The "Chinese pulse diagnosis" source is:

• SIMMONS, TONY (April 03, 2011). "Seeking the Roots of Thought: Once John Lennon's muse, 'Dear Prudence' now teaches meditation". Panama City, Florida: NewsHerald.com.

It's easy to imagine that a busy reporter in a small city can confuse ancient Asian medical pulse diagnosis traditions.

Nadivijnana, the Crest-Jewel of Ayurveda: A Translation of Six Central Texts and an Examination of the Sources, Influences and Development of Indian Pulse-Diagnosis.

We could simply give the full title, which defines its contents.

BTW, does anyone have a preference for having the article at "Prudence Bruns" versus "Prudence Farrow"? It seems like a close case.   Will Beback  talk  07:17, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

• Farrow first learned the Transcendental Meditation technique in 1966 at UCLA, In 1967, after contemplating joining a convent and then trying LSD, 19-year old Farrow became interested in yoga. She opened a yoga institute at a former church in Boston.

Looking at the source, I see that in 1967 she said she'd once wanted to be a nun, and had tried LSD, not that she did them that year. I think we can just move it to the front and say,

• Farrow attended Catholic school, contemplated joining a convent, and tried LSD. She learned the Transcendental Meditation technique in 1966 at UCLA. In 1967, 19-year old Farrow became interested in yoga. She opened a yoga institute at a former church in Boston.

Would that be more accurate?   Will Beback  talk  07:34, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

factual errors-sidebar

n sidebar summary on the right hand side there are two factual errors.My name is spelled Bruns not burns. My wife dated Robert Durst for about two weeks when he was separated from his wife and before she disappeared (contrary to what is stated in article) it is not accurate to list him as a partner.Newspaper reports are not always accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albertbruns (talk • contribs) 14:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

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Should Robert Durst be mentioned?

The page for Robert Durst links to Farrow's page, and there has been media reporting on their relationship. However, Durst and the context of the relationship are both unsavory topics for a living person article, especially for a not-so-public figure, so I'm unsure if it's worth adding. Quesoteric (talk) 09:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)