Talk:Results of the 2024 Victorian local elections in Northern Melbourne

Independent Labor Candidates in Darebin

Currently on the City of Darebin page, Julie Williams and Tim Laurence are listed as Labor councillors. Julie Williams is also listed as Labor on the YIMBY Melbourne website, https://www.yimby.melbourne/council/darebin, this Herald Sun article from 2022 also lists both as Independent Labor councillors, https://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/north/darebin-council-plagued-by-infighting-with-calls-for-state-government-to-intervene/news-story/6c237f0e451fd21c106656b0fa6a08b5?amp.

As Victorian Council elections are non-partisan, and there is largely no official endorsement by Victorian Labor, with Darebin having Darebin Branch endorsed candidates, there is no adequate way to ascertain someone's political affiliation for any council. If the decision is made to remove all Independent Labor and Independent Liberal candidates, then for most councils, they would all be listed as 'independent' on Wikipedia. It also means that the current Wikipedia page for Darebin is incorrect. Notconnor (talk)

Therefore, will we collectively be deciding to remove partisan affiliations from all candidates unless they are officially endorsed by a political party as per their VEC filing?

Hi @Notconnor, TL:DR Labor are endorsing candidates for this Darebin council elections which would appear to be a change from the recent past.

Please refer to https://www.vec.vic.gov.au/voting/2024-local-council-elections/darebin-city-council/nominations which has all the nominations for Darebin council candidates. You can select each candidate from that page and it will tell you if the candidate has advised that they are officially endorsed by a party or not. For example Kristine Olaris (see https://itsitecoreblobvecprd.blob.core.windows.net/public-files/Council/Questionnaires/21023.pdf) has advised that they are an endorsed Labor candidate. Using a dated 2022 Herald Sun article isn't going to give you any meaningful answers and as an aside Herald Sun is not a reliable source (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 426#Reliability of the Herald Sun which links a number of discussions in which editors have stated that it is not reliable). Please note that with the VEC page I've linked that when you download Tim Laurance and Julie Williams candidate statements (see https://itsitecoreblobvecprd.blob.core.windows.net/public-files/Council/Questionnaires/20947.pdf and https://itsitecoreblobvecprd.blob.core.windows.net/public-files/Council/Questionnaires/21102.pdf respectively) that they answer the question "Are you endorsed by a registered political party?" with a No. Please let me know if you have any questions. TarnishedPath^talk 13:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Ps, the YIMBY Melbourne site is not a a reliable source per WP:SELFPUB and even if it was (which it's not) it wouldn't be very useful for this usage as it's dated. Some of the information contained in it is no longer the case, e.g., Julie Williams hasn't been mayor in a year. TarnishedPath^talk 13:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @TarnishedPath, thank you for your reply, I appreciate your explanation and for letting me know about some things I did not yet know as I am still relatively new to Wikipedia editing (ie the WP:SELPUB rule and the Herald Sun being unreliable), so I am genuinely appreciative of that.

I do note however, that Labor have endorsed candidates in previous Darebin council elections, with other candidates running as Independent Labor (See Darebin on Results of the 2020 Victorian local elections) . My primary concern is that this seems to be a generalised exception solely for Darebin, and has not occurred for any other council results list, including in places where Labor (or other parties) have endorsed. You will note that on the Results of the 2024 Victorian local elections in South-Eastern Melbourne that in Casey the same predicament occurs with a Libertarian endorsed candidate, and a candidate who is a Member of the Libertarians running as an Independent (therefore, an independent libertarian).

If the decision is made to not include candidates who are members of a political running as independents from being listed as 'Independent [Insert Name]', could this then be applied equally to all councils listed, not just Darebin? Notconnor (talk) 06:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Notconnor, the Labor party didn't endorse any candidates for 2020. There's a news article I was reading about it the other day which stated that this is the first time in a while that it had happened for Darebin Council (The Age I believe but I can't remember exactly because it was a link a member of a community FB group sent me). Also in regards to the Wikipedia article you linked it states at Results_of_the_2020_Victorian_local_elections#Darebin that "The Labor Party did not officially endorse candidates". and goes on to state "however 10 party members contested as candidates for Labor Members for Darebin (including one who was later disendorsed) and a further four contested as Independent Labor candidates" which contradicts the first part of the sentence which clearly states that Labor didn't endorse candidates. How can some be independent and others not when the sentence states that Labor didn't endorse any candidates? I suggest the article needs an update. Even if it did state that Labor endorsed anyone, please don't rely on Wikipedia articles as evidence for anything. You need to go back to the references. Please read WP:WINARS. In regards to other articles you'll need to discuss it there. I don't edit those other articles and I'm not going to speak on behalf of the editors that do. TarnishedPath^talk 07:44, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

ps, @Notconnor there's a WP:SECONDARY source which is reliable and which states that "[o]n Wednesday night, Labor officially launched its Darebin candidates. to further demonstrate that Labor has officially endorsed candidates. TarnishedPath^talk 09:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Jumping in re the 2020 page...I've tried to clarify that based of The Age's article because there was both clearly a group of Labor members, while other Labor members ran minus any group endorsement or party endorsement, and Labor itself said they did not officially endorse per that article

I wouldn't be surprised if Laurence and Williams are still Labor affiliated (this would be much easier if like SA, NSW, QLD there were full party membership disclosures) but agree there should be some wait until there's a newer and reliable source Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 09:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I was reading a article the other day (I was trying before to remember which outlet I was reading it from but couldn't remember and Google didn't bring any joy) which stated that the Labor party rules are such that when there were no official endorsements any member could run as long as they preferences other members above non-members. The article went on to state that the Labor party rules forbid members running against endorsed candidates. Who knows if they've got it completely correct and as you write better to wait for other sourcing which is newer and reliable. TarnishedPath^talk 10:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I remember seeing something like that for the 2020 elections as well! It seems to be a Vic thing since in NSW there have def been both ALP and INDALP in the exact same race Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 10:21, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @TarnishedPath for your explanation. I really do appreciate it. In full agreement with your point now. Text based communication in forums like this are always difficult, but what you say makes sense and is right I think. Not sure whether those are the exact Labor rules (I do know that Julie still attends Labor branch meetings but obv that is not a source whatsoever). Thanks again! Notconnor (talk) 22:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Notconnor, I just came across this which makes reference to a former Labour councillor: "Incumbent councillor, Tim Laurence (Independent - formerly Labor)". Please don't use this source though because it is unreliable (no editorial policy, no editorial staff, no history of factual reporting, etc.). TarnishedPath^talk 12:07, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Also not going to cite it, but what's the source out of pure interest? Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 12:09, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Wait I just realised you hyper linked it, that's my bad - please disregard the previous comment lol Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 12:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

all good TarnishedPath^talk 12:38, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Small edits to the page discussion

Hey @Totallynotarandomalt69, Rosemary Storey from Sugarloaf is a member of the Greens which you can see here in her candidate statement. Just wanted to be clear :) Jy Sandford (talk) 09:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Cheers - I'm assuming because of the candidate swap that she wasn't put on the Vic Greens website (if she is, I've totally missed it) but thanks for the info! Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 10:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Yep, you've seen right through it lol Jy Sandford (talk) 10:08, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Another thing @Totallynotarandomalt69, in Grimshaw, since Rick Garotti was an Independent before the election, does that constitute a "Councillor changed to Independent from Independent Labor" or is it based on the previous election?

Also all of the numbers will be updated with commas once the final numbers come out :) Jy Sandford (talk) 01:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

"Councillor changed to…" I think is meant to be based on it being a mid-term defection (I think some of the 2023 NSW results had/have it for the Shooters MPs who became independents?) although to be honest I'm happy if it's switched to Independent HOLD, it doesn't matter much when it's a non-endorsed party label either way

No worries re commas Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 01:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll change it all when final numbers come through for Banyule :) Jy Sandford (talk) 01:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)