Talk:Rulers of the Chera dynasty
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Maybe a myth?
editIf you could see this URL [1], it has been described that the first mention of Tajuddeen/Cheraman Perumal was in 16th century. Also, none of the historians verified this story. Maybe, Wikipedia has allowed a myth to be a article based on biased reports!There were no notable references, except muslims blogs. - Vatsan34 (talk) 03:35, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- This article can be a possible hoax (seems to me in a first look). It needs inspection. The Legend of Zorro 00:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- If you could see in this article, it had been mentioned that Rama Varma is Cheraman Perumal. But when I look into Rama Varma Kulashekhara, it has not been mentioned about his vision of moon splitting and even chronologically, he is 400 years later than Muhammad. During Muhammad's time, Pulakesin II was invading the chera empire. So, the claim that Cheraman perumal's kingdom extending across the whole of south India is also false information. Also, Malik Deenar who accompanied him to India is claimed to had lived for more than 130 years by that article (he had met Mohammed during 620s and had died on 748 AD). And all the references in this article either points to any Islamic site or official site of the mosque? Does it come under any notable reference? - Vatsan34 (talk) 07:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Definitely the article has a huge reference problem but bear in mind it has interwiki links to Arabic and Tamil. The Legend of Zorro 07:26, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. Maybe, this article has remained so long that it was translated to Arabic and Tamil. Also, let me add this [2]. This is an event that took place in Berkeley Univ where Cheraman Perumal was discussed as Hindu saint. I could not read the PDF , but this event looks like a valid proof that Cheraman Perumal did not become Tajudeen, rather he became Hindu saint! -Vatsan34 (talk) 07:37, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Ref 2 and ref 4 of the article are self made website. All rest are either of any associations or from blogs, so not reliable. The Legend of Zorro 07:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- According to the single edit the creator of the Arabic version of the article has, it was merely a translation of this article. It was automated as the grammar is awful. Anyway, this and this were given as proof of notability during the AfD. I don't quite remember all the details now but perhaps we can start looking from these to see if there's anything to this. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- In the Google Books link you had given, take A Social History of India by S.N.Sadasivan[3]. In page 306, he had mentioned that associating Cheraman with Tajudeen entered into Malabar Gazette by William Logan. But, he tells the origin of this hoax,which is, Mali had been confused with Malabar. It was Kaliminja of Maldives who had converted to Islam after 1153 AD. He infers that Mali might have been mistaken by scholars as Malabar and this gave rise to the fable of Thiya-Uj-Uddan , not Tajudeen. - Vatsan34 (talk) 10:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Well, this might sound funny considering I nominated this article for AfD but I'm just thinking out loud here. What if we keep this article, but rewrite it from reliable sources? At that point, it will be an article about a hoax - see the "Hoaxes, versus articles about hoaxes " section in WP:HOAX. I literally just thought of this now so if it's a dumb idea, please don't make fun of me. MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it sounds good. Apart from Muslim's version, there are also hoaxes of the last Cheraman Perumal ascending to meet siva along with another saint called Sundara. Maybe, we can incorporate all of these and put under title mostly like Hoaxes surrounding Cheraman Perumal or Myths built around Cheraman Perumal. We can either introduce this as a section under the main article of Cheraman Perumal or expand it into full article, listing all the hoaxes surrounding Cheraman Perumal. Now, I wonder he vanished purportedly so that people would be discussing about him ten centuries later in a Wikipedia talk page!!! - Vatsan34 (talk) 12:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- "Hoax" is the wrong word to be using here, as it means a deliberate deception, for which we have no evidence. "Myth" or "legend" would be more accurate. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- How about myth? Since this passed for generations and each community had its own version of this story, can we make it as Urban Legend? - Vatsan34 (talk) 17:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- "Hoax" is the wrong word to be using here, as it means a deliberate deception, for which we have no evidence. "Myth" or "legend" would be more accurate. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it sounds good. Apart from Muslim's version, there are also hoaxes of the last Cheraman Perumal ascending to meet siva along with another saint called Sundara. Maybe, we can incorporate all of these and put under title mostly like Hoaxes surrounding Cheraman Perumal or Myths built around Cheraman Perumal. We can either introduce this as a section under the main article of Cheraman Perumal or expand it into full article, listing all the hoaxes surrounding Cheraman Perumal. Now, I wonder he vanished purportedly so that people would be discussing about him ten centuries later in a Wikipedia talk page!!! - Vatsan34 (talk) 12:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Well, this might sound funny considering I nominated this article for AfD but I'm just thinking out loud here. What if we keep this article, but rewrite it from reliable sources? At that point, it will be an article about a hoax - see the "Hoaxes, versus articles about hoaxes " section in WP:HOAX. I literally just thought of this now so if it's a dumb idea, please don't make fun of me. MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- In the Google Books link you had given, take A Social History of India by S.N.Sadasivan[3]. In page 306, he had mentioned that associating Cheraman with Tajudeen entered into Malabar Gazette by William Logan. But, he tells the origin of this hoax,which is, Mali had been confused with Malabar. It was Kaliminja of Maldives who had converted to Islam after 1153 AD. He infers that Mali might have been mistaken by scholars as Malabar and this gave rise to the fable of Thiya-Uj-Uddan , not Tajudeen. - Vatsan34 (talk) 10:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- According to the single edit the creator of the Arabic version of the article has, it was merely a translation of this article. It was automated as the grammar is awful. Anyway, this and this were given as proof of notability during the AfD. I don't quite remember all the details now but perhaps we can start looking from these to see if there's anything to this. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Ref 2 and ref 4 of the article are self made website. All rest are either of any associations or from blogs, so not reliable. The Legend of Zorro 07:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. Maybe, this article has remained so long that it was translated to Arabic and Tamil. Also, let me add this [2]. This is an event that took place in Berkeley Univ where Cheraman Perumal was discussed as Hindu saint. I could not read the PDF , but this event looks like a valid proof that Cheraman Perumal did not become Tajudeen, rather he became Hindu saint! -Vatsan34 (talk) 07:37, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- Definitely the article has a huge reference problem but bear in mind it has interwiki links to Arabic and Tamil. The Legend of Zorro 07:26, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
- If you could see in this article, it had been mentioned that Rama Varma is Cheraman Perumal. But when I look into Rama Varma Kulashekhara, it has not been mentioned about his vision of moon splitting and even chronologically, he is 400 years later than Muhammad. During Muhammad's time, Pulakesin II was invading the chera empire. So, the claim that Cheraman perumal's kingdom extending across the whole of south India is also false information. Also, Malik Deenar who accompanied him to India is claimed to had lived for more than 130 years by that article (he had met Mohammed during 620s and had died on 748 AD). And all the references in this article either points to any Islamic site or official site of the mosque? Does it come under any notable reference? - Vatsan34 (talk) 07:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
"Perumal Surname came from Legendary saint king Kulasekhara Alzhwars (Always or Alzhwars)
editPerumal Surname came from Legendary saint king Kulasekhar Alzhwar( Always or Azhwars), he was one of 12 Shree Vaishnava saint, he was a Ardent devotee of Bhagawan (Lord) Rama so he got the Surname Perumal which his descendents use till date including Travancore Kings who add additional surname " Padmanabhadhasa" Kalpathyram (talk) 18:13, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
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Merge proposal
editI propose this article to be included in the article Chera Perumals of Makotai. The two articles talk about some similar topics but the descriptions differ a lot.
For example compare the lists of the kings of the dynasty. This is hugely confusing. Kawrno Baba (talk) 17:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)