Talk:Saint Basil's Cathedral

Descriptive Language

Much of the descriptive language employs reasonably common terms from standard architecture history, although I agree that in a few places the backgrounding in other languages besides English might be making the English text difficult to follow. I'm curious, from an ekphratic standpoint, though, whether the word "labyrinth" in one of the descriptive sections is really referring to a tiled maze on the ground, or whether that is being used metaphorically. I'm guessing the latter, but the reference would be most useful if cleared up.108.20.41.15 (talk) 09:08, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Dimensions

Article seems to have no information about the building's dimensions -- not even the height. It would be nice to add this. 81.129.128.107 (talk) 20:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC).

• Curious, but the academic books on my desk don't cite exact height. I recall that the 1940 survey put it at 60 meters, but beats me if it was structural (to top of masonry) or overall (with the cross) height. Don't have this book by my side anymore. And, to add to the confusion, the thing stands on an incline, so the zero level baseline may be set differently... NVO (talk) 12:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
  • See the official web-site — http://www.saintbasil.ru/en/expo.html --= APh =-- (talk) 19:47, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

St Basil Cathedral history

the cathedral is very old —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.59.93 (talk) 18:42, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

The "Red Square" didn't exist in the 16th century. Someone should fix this locked page, cause it's full of other mistakes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.160.144.78 (talk) 16:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

"It has been the hub of the city's growth since the 14th century[6][7].." but it was not built until the 16th century. May 30, 2014, Buriedhappytoday (talk) 18:46, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Impressions

A very cool article! A nice feel of Russian style. You can almost taste it. Good pictures. ...There's Russian Spirit, there's scent of Rus!... Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Nearly unreadable

The text is an almost impenetrable morass of links, arcane terminology, and plain bad writing, e.g.: "..when location required use of stone walls, they decorated it with brickwork pattern painted over stucco." If anyone can explain how brick is painted on stucco, I'll be amazed. This unique complex of buildings deserves a more thought-out article. Antimatter33 (talk) 11:04, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

No they painted "a brickwork pattern" on the stucco, to make it look like bricks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.69.165 (talk) 02:10, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Antimatter, this article needs a major renovation. It looks like a lot of the page is taken from semi-mystical academic texts, reproduced by a non-native English speaker. -- Yablochko (talk) 23:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

About Saint Basil's Cathedral

Is it a good place because i don't have any idea about this. if any one read my this small message and have a great knowledge about the Saint Basil's Cathedral, then please send that details to my gmail account;

Thank you............. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.170.21.91 (talk) 06:26, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Publishing your e-mail account here is a very bad idea indeed (and may even be against Wikipedia rules - unless you really want all the spam it will attract). Further, it is not a discussion of the article. 86.183.28.24 (talk) 12:02, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Tetris

I believe that this cathedral is shown in the Tetris video games (Most notably the original for game boy. At the end of the game it blasts off) Just thought I might mention this, just in case you wanted to add it (Although you probably wont) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metagross923 (talk • contribs) 14:51, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I hear you brother, I hear you. Que the Tetris theme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.200.25.75 (talk) 21:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

It's also included in the classic 1989 nintendo Tetris for NES 186.48.101.1 (talk) 17:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

References to the Cathedral in Tetris should be included under "Popular culture" section. Pravito (talk) 02:26, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

"has no analogues in Russian Architecture"- not accurate

This statement simply isn't true. I cite George Heard Hamiltons "The Art and Architecture of Russia", 1954- generally speaking St. Basils (1555-60) is stylistically a translation into brick of the wooden architectural tradition, but there are stone precedents in the church of the Ascension at Kolomenskoe built by Basil III in 1532, the church of the Transfiguration at Ostrovo (before 1550) and the Church of the Decapitation of St. John the Baptist at Dyakovo (before 1547). The tradition of votive churches, of which St. Basil's is one is somewhat separate from the tradition of the dynastic churches in the Kremlin, hence the divergence of form. It is a complex subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.242.189 (talk) 00:00, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Dmitry Sukhov

The article currently links to a Dmitry Sukhov claiming that he wrote a book in 1941 however the link takes you to a football player in Russia who was born in 1986. The link should probably be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.2.121.149 (talk) 01:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

simile at the start of paragraph three

The start of paragraph three strikes me as oddly worded: "The building's design, shaped as a flame of a bonfire rising into the sky..."

The unusual construction of this simile keeps making me think that the author actually intended to type 'as a flame or a bonfire' rather than 'as a flame of a bonfire'. Suggested rewording: "The building's design, shaped like the flames of a bonfire rising into the sky..."

However, the whole simile is open to discussion. Are the towers actually shaped like flames, or would the usual description of 'onion-shaped' be more appropriate? Flames are loftier and less cliched I guess. How about 'onion-shaped flames' or 'a bonfire of onions'? No, maybe not.

Peterandhiscat (talk) 10:41, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

• It is a standard interpretation to remark that the signature, usually gilded, "onion domes" depict candle flames. In Russian Orthodox tradition the burning of candles in church reflects the burning love and devotion of the parishioners for and to God and in parts of some religious services it is noted that "sinners fly from the face of God as does the smoke flee from burning candle flames". It would seem that the oddities of some expressions that have been used in the Wiki article stem from stilted or incorrect translations from the Russian. Федоров (talk) 12:23, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Bias?

"A victim of state atheism, the church was stolen from the Russian Orthodox community as part of the Soviet Unions anti-theist campaigns"--86.52.109.66 (talk) 13:53, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I read that passage and also thought it was POV. And saying the secularization of the church was "forceful" is suspect. I'm surprised it has stood for a month and a half.

Those statements cite a Russian web page about the history of the church. Because I only know enough Russian to say "Я не говорю по-русский", I had to rely on Google Translate to find out what the source said:

(RU) В 1918 г. Покровский собор одним из первых был взят государством под охрану как памятник национального и мирового значения. С 21 мая 1923 г. он открыт для посетителей как историко-архитектурный музей. При этом до 1929 г. в церкви Св. Василия Блаженного проводились богослужения. В 1928 г. Покровский собор стал филиалом Государственного Исторического Музея.	(EN) In 1918, St. Basil's Cathedral one of the first was taken by the state as a monument under the protection of national and global importance. On May 21, 1923 it opened to the public as a historical and architectural museum. At the same time until 1929 at St. Basil's Cathedral conducted the service. In 1928 he became the Cathedral of the Intercession of the State Historical Museum.
(http://www.shm.ru/pokrovskiy.html)

The source doesn't seem to back up the sentiment that the church was a "victim" of state atheism (which is an emotionally charged way to say it, anyway), nor the idea that it was "forcefully" secularized. I will try to make these statements NPOV. — Athelwulf ^[T]/_[C] 07:29, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

PS: Oops, I didn't read the original post closely enough. Just for clarity, the passage in question was made slightly better sometime before I saw it, but it's still very problematic: "A victim of state atheism, the church was repurposed as part of the Soviet Union's anti-theist campaigns [...] It was completely and forcefully secularized in 1929 [...]" — Athelwulf ^[T]/_[C] 07:37, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

• If you would like to read a better translation of the passage cited above:

"In 1918, the Church of the Intercession (alternate and correct name of St. Basil'S) was one of the first to be taken under the protection of the state as a monument of national and world significance. From 21 May 1923 it has been open to visitors as a historical-architectural museum. Until 1929 religious services were held in the Church of St. Basil the Blessed. In 1928 the Church of the Intercession became a branch of the State Historical Museum." Федоров (talk) 12:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Issues of language - American or British English?

• A recent "edit" of the main page considered the mix of British and American English clearly intolerable and chose to edit the entire article into British English usage. I wish to point out that there is NO rule that states WIKIPEDIA articles must be in either style of English or that a mix of both cannot be tolerated. Since WIKIPEDIA is a collective effort and that collective effort includes contributors using both British and American English it appears that WIKIPEDIA should tolerate a mixture of English language usage. What say other contributors? Or is there a language version DIKTAT of which I am unaware?Федоров (talk) 19:47, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Snow

Did the architect design the domes to accommodate for snow? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TJRana (talk • contribs) 16:22, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Dunno about the architect but there's a nice painting of the cathedral in the snow. See: File:Nikolay_Dubovskoy_Tserkov'_Vasiliya_Blazhennogo_1916-1917.jpg

70.36.142.114 (talk) 06:03, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Some architectural historians have suggested that onion domes in general in Russia - they are quite common - were an adapatation to the heavy snowfalls and long winters. In Byzantium and southern Europe, snow isn't much of an issue, but over the course of a Russian winter a wide, flat cupola like the one at St.Sophia of Constantinople, which would have been a given model for Russian orthodox architects, might get weighed down with many tonnes of packed snow and ice, threatening to destabilize it. The onion design makes it easier for the snow to just slip off. 83.254.154.164 (talk) 06:03, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Geographic center vs. Geometric Center?

Removed from article intro: St. Basil's marks the geometric center of Moscow (not to be confused with the geographic center, the Ivan the Great Bell Tower).

Can anyone explain the difference between the "geographic center" and the "geometric center" in the second paragraph? I don't understand the distinction, and while I understand the concept of a "geographic center", I'm not sure how a "geometric center" applies to cities in a different way than a "geographic" one. A quick google search for "geometric center" only returns info about geometry in general, and a search for "geographic center of city" rephrases the search as "geographic center". It seems like there must be an obvious difference to the author of the paragraph, but it isn't immediately clear what that distinction is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben the Bos (talk • contribs) 02:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I concur. It's also unsourced on Ivan the Great Bell Tower. I'll remove both statements to their respective talk pages until an source can be supplied. I tried to google the idea of geographic vs geometric centers, but the best match was this article. Xaxafrad (talk) 07:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

It is a very interesting point though because the 'ring' structure of Moscow is centred around St Basil's/Rred Square whilst there appears to be at least one alignment of buildings, Lomonosov University Tower - Luzhniki stadium - Christ the Saviour Cathedral on the Ivan the Great Tower. Sceptic1954 (talk) 08:43, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Contradiction in lead

"It was built from 1555–61 on orders from Ivan the Terrible and commemorates the capture of Kazan and Astrakhan. It has been the hub of the city's growth since the 14th century[6][7]" It was the hub for two centuries before it was built.Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:03, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I noticed that as well. If the two sentences were not meant as a contradiction, the second probably should be "Its location had been the hub...". To judge which was meant, one would probably need to find the sources 6 and 7. Ambi Valent (talk) 22:16, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I removed the bit about "the hub of the growth of Moscow since the 14th century". It's plainly misleading and was likely lifted wholesale from some flourish in a travel piece or the like where the phrase may have stood a little more separated from mention of the cathedral, e.g.: "Saint Basil's Cathedral has seen centuries of change, witnessing most of the evolution from the 14th century to the present megacity from a place at the hub of the growth of the city" (where "the hub" would be a vague ref to Red Square & the Kremlin or to the general inner-city area). 83.254.154.164 (talk) 14:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Official Name

I read in the English version of the official page of the Cathedral that its official name is: Cathedral of the Protecting Veil of the Mother of God. Is that correct or is it what is stated at the beginning of this page? What would be the source of the name that appears in Wikipedia? --181.166.134.210 (talk) 21:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Floor plan

It would be nice to have a floor plan (or a photograph from above) in the Layout section -- it would be much easier to understand the basic layout from a diagram or photo than the wordy description we have. --Taejo|대조 19:37, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Stalin sparing

Does anyone have any information or sources they'd like to share as to why St Basil Cathedral was spared by Stalin? I know a couple links area already shared. But I'd really like more sources and information on this. Thanks Kahtar22 (talk) 03:23, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Saint Basil's URL doesn't work for linking from other articles

How can we change a page's URL? I'm trying to link another article to this one, because Wikipedia is rejecting the %27 as "invalid characters." Can we remove them from the URL to enable links? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Basil%27s_Cathedral Thanks! Megan Kilian (talk) 17:32, 27 October 2017 (UTC)Megan Kilian

@Megan Kilian: if you want to link form another Wikipedia article just use the Wikilink [[Saint Basil's Cathedral]] Nthep (talk) 17:38, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

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File:Sant Vasily cathedral in Moscow.JPG to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Sant Vasily cathedral in Moscow.JPG will be appearing as picture of the day on January 29, 2018. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2018-01-29. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 02:25, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Saint Basil's Cathedral is a church in Red Square in Moscow, Russia. It was built from 1555 to 1561 on orders from Ivan the Terrible and commemorates the capture of Kazan and Astrakhan. The city's tallest building until the completion of the Ivan the Great Bell Tower in 1600, the original building contained eight side churches arranged around the ninth, central church of Intercession; the tenth church was erected in 1588 over the grave of venerated local saint Vasily (Basil). Although the Bolsheviks considered demolishing the church in the 1930s, it was spared. Since 1991 it has housed a branch of the State Historical Museum and hosted occasional church services.Photograph: Petar Milošević

Naming

At the end of the Naming section, we are told that it is called the Temple of Basil the Blessed and that Cathedral is incorrect. This agrees with what I learned, that Russians call it Храм Василия Блаженного. Should this name be included in the introduction? Thanks Fcy (talk) 21:03, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Answer

While that is the Case in Russian, Cathedral is a suitable translation for the word "temple" in Russian. "of Basil the Blessed" is translated as Saint Basil's. It probably shouldn't. Saint basil's Cathedral is much better than Temple of Basil the Blessed. Louis Sarwal(Talk) Sun Jul 12 5:12:48 ET

Image of prior coloring

The article briefly mentions that it took until the 19th century for the cathedral's modern color scheme to come along. I suggest that the section on the historical colors should include an image of the cathedral's prior colors. On the right would be a painting from Commons of the cathedral (on the left side of the image) all in white, green, and gilded, dated 1673. --2003:EF:1705:8976:915:13:2E2:FB4E (talk) 18:28, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Foreign Imagination

Saint Basil's Cathedral could be a foreign imagination of what "Rus" (Russia) looked like.

Some would disagree because the structure resonate with Cossack people and because there is other church in the city of Moscow. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 11:19, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Math

/* Math */ new section 158.62.69.42 (talk) 06:36, 21 September 2024 (UTC)