Talk:Sharon Leal

Birthdate

The article gives Leal's birthdate as 17 October 1972, sourced to Yahoo! movies and The Miami Herald. (This also fits with the article's statement that her adoptive father "married Leal's mother in 1972 and legally adopted Leal.")

Another editor, Paulbecker, states he is a choreographer working with Leal and that her passport says 17 October 1979. This claim is not verifiable and conflicts with the adoption info in the article as well. The editor's most recent change cited two celebrity photo sites for the 1979 date. The first, allstarpics.net, gives the 1972 date (saying it is from Wikipedia) and the 1979 date (without attribution). The second, fanpix.net, gives the 1979 date (also without attibution). There is no indication these are reliable sources.

I have reverted this change 3 times, adding the second cite after a brief discussion on the editor's talk page. The 1972 date is verifiable and cites two reliable sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I am sorry I didn't talk on this page...I am also sorry that I tried to change it 3 times. It took me a while to figure this out. Yes I am a choreographer, and I am also Sharon Leal's BOYFRIEND. She is beside me as I type this. We can take a scan of her passport if you like snd email to you. We just mailed a copy to imdb so they can fix the same problem. You know as well as I do that a lot of things on the internet are not true. Sharon did not write her bio on wikipedia. It is also incorrect....However, lets start by fixing her age as it looks as though every site references Wikipedia. Can we scan and email you a copy of a DL and or Passport???? Then we can end this discussion. My email address is paulbecker1@mac.com .... ----Paulbecker — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulbecker (talk • contribs) 06:42, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

We are all very well aware that a lot of information on the internet is not true. As a result, we do not take information from just any source. We are aware, for example, of numerous problems with biographical information in IMDb and generally do not use it.Instead, we have specific policies that information -- especially biographical information about living people -- must be verifiable and cite reliable sources. For reasons that are beyond me, there are people who will go to great lengths to spread false information, sometimes of a fairly trivial nature. (While not so trivial, the example of Barack Obama's birth certificate comes to mind. Versions from various sources have him born in various places at various times to various people.)

Our policy of verifiability states, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." This policy, in theory, allows any editor to recheck the source of any information they doubt or dispute. While scans of a birth certificate and/or driver's license would initially seem to cover this (to the extent they are stored somewhere in an accessible way), those scans are not "published by a reliable source".

Our policy on reliable sources attempts to address the question of which sources we trust. " In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication." This generally means that the source will depend on the fact being cited: medical claims are best sourced to well-regarded, peer-reviewed journals, for example. For biographical information, we usually cite major magazines and newspapers as these sources have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. The scans you are offering to send are not subject to fact checking -- we do not have the resources to analyze them in any meaningful way. Even if we did, the results would be, at best, our judgment.

As a fall back, for information that does not seem to be debated (ala Obama's birth info) we generally can accept information from an individual's personal/official website, provided that there is some way to verify that the site is that person's personal/official website. There are, again, any number of cases where purportedly official sites or individuals representing them, the sites are mere fan sites and the "representative" an impostor.

I am unable to find a site that even claims to be Leal's personal or official website, let alone one I can verify is what it claims to be. This leaves us with our usual sources. The two discussed above say 1972. The more I check, the more I am finding 1972 in reliable sources: tv.com (CBS), San Jose Mercury (Associated Press), bing.com (AMG, used by the New York Times) and the two currently cited all agree on 1972. I am unable to find any reliable or quasi-reliable sources using 1979. At this point if we do find reliable sources for 1972, we will need to report both ("...born October 17, 1972 or 1979...") unless the new source is clearly more authoritative.

Please review our policy on biographies of living persons which applies here. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi. The referenced "people" article that is pointed towards the year of supposed birth (1972) says absolutely nothing to back up that she was born in 72. It just talks about marriage. I have tried to delete it. It keeps reappearing. Please advise. Thank you. The official site says 1979. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.248.240.81 (talk) 16:09, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The 2002 article says "Last October the actress, 29,". Add to that the other reliable sources, above, and we have numerous reliable sources that say 1972. Given the large number of challenges (though not a large number of challengers...), I'm thinking we need to add in the other sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:41, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

(Moved from location added, immediately following "...legally adopted Leal.")" And where is the source for this info? It is incorrect also. She was adopted in 1979. He married her mother in 1972...NOT adopted. ----Paulbecker

Please avoid adding text in the middle of comments by other editors, it makes it hard to determine who said what. I'm not sure what you are saying as it seems to be contradictory "was adopted" vs. "NOT adopted". To check the source for any information, click the superscript number and it will take you directly to the citation in question. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you...understood. Her website is being built right now...it will be up in about a month....will you be able to use that to trump. What if you call her? This false age thing really affects work prospects as she is an actress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.149.161.73 (talk) 15:45, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The birthdate is now properly sourced as 1979. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you For helping verify! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulbecker (talk • contribs) 17:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Why does someone keep changing her age back to 1972? She was verified at 1979 at her official site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulbecker (talk • contribs) 23:31, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Because the 1972 date is very well distributed and, to some extent, found in reliable sources, the date will continue to pop up. Additionally, it is not unheard of for people to misrepresent their ages. If you look around a bit, you'll find numerous people (many of them actresses) with more than one verifiable birth date. Typically, we take an individual at their word unless/until reliable sources not only report an alternate date(s) but clearly state that either they got this from an unimpeachable source or they discuss that the person claims otherwise. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

This interview, written in 2008, makes it a point that she was (then) 36. It is kind of a centerpiece of the interview, how she doesn't look her age and how that affects her casting, etc. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 06:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The interview is incorrect. She is born in 1979 as stated in her official site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulbecker1 (talk • contribs) 06:39, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Aside from your insistence that the interview is flat out wrong -- all the way through -- how do we know that this is the case? We don't. Typically in such cases, we have the article say that the person says they were born on (whatever date), though "some sources say" (other date). We'll probably end up with that here as well. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Given the plurality of sources stating 17 October 1972, I think we need to include the competing claims. Unless there is substantial policy-based discussion to the contrary, I'll add this in a few days. Comments? - SummerPhD (talk) 00:01, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

An interview and article published in The Fresno Bee on June 12, 1994 gives her age as 21, see here. If she was 14 at the time it would be absurd. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 21:50, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. So reliable secondary sources seem to agree with 1972 while the primary source says 1979. While I have my own guess as to what's going on, I don't really know how we handle this. Suggestions? - SummerPhD (talk) 23:13, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I guess we should just keep both dates in for now. I have to fight this battle a lot. Right now I'm fighting it over at Talk:Jim Sturgess, where it's a similar situation, and Talk:Lily Cole, where I at least have the advantage that Cole has referenced her correct birthdate on her Twitter. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 02:58, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

The source that says 1979 is a broken link. I don't know how long it has been broken but right now there is no source that claims she's born in 1979.--Atlan (talk) 16:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

The source at sharonleal.me is now a dead link. I've marked it as such (and there doesn't seem to be an archive out there). Looks like it later moved to sharonleal.net (which is linked to from her Twitter account). That page now redirects to a sub-page on a free web hosting site. I'd say we give them a bit of time to work out their hosting issues. If a new site doesn't pop up (with a link from the verified Twitter account, we can yank it here until someone comes back to defend the younger age or send a note to the Twitter account asking for a birthdate claim there. Other ideas/thoughts? - SummerPhD (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

That's fine by me. I wasn't checking this article when this controversy about her age started, so I haven't seen the website, but was sharonleal.me endorsed by her in any way? I would find the 1979 claim a lot more credible if she did.--Atlan (talk) 01:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Every source we could find (and there were more than a few) said 1972. Then an editor claiming to be her boyfriend insisted that she is 7 years younger than that. I don't specifically recall how we determined that sharonleal.me was official. Her confirmed Twitter account does link to sharonleal.net, so to the extent that Twitter is right, that would be legit. That now redirects to a subpage of a free webhosting site that shares a name with the COI editor. So assuming Twitter is right and neither sharonleal.net or the site it redirects to has been compromised... well, the lines are getting a bit long here. I'd prefer an unequivocal source. The plurality of reliable sources stating 1972, though, seem to be here to stay. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:55, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

That all sounds very dodgy. Since when do we buy into boyfriend claims?--Atlan (talk) 17:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

We don't (and didn't). The self-identified boyfriend tried to make a lot of unsourced changes, including removing the 1972 birth date. They have been repeatedly reverted (whether he bothered to log in or not). At some point (and for reasons I cannot recall), we accepted that the sharonleal.me site was legitimately her site and added the 1979 birth date claim alongside the well-sourced 1972. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:32, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Birthdate, still

As discussed, the only reliably sourced date we have in 1972. An extensive list of IPs and the registered accounts Paulbecker and Paulbecker1 periodically return to change the date to 1979. I usually notice and revert it fairly quickly. Unless someone finds a reliable source for 1979, it does not belong in the article. Unless someone can identify concrete problems with the sources we do have, there is no reason to remove them. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:24, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

BLP

This article discusses a living person. Our policy on biographies of living persons (BLP) applies.

Famoushookups.com is a self-published source (see [1]). As a result, it can only be cited for information about itself and non-controversial claims about its authors. It cannot be used here. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:00, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

It says in this article that she is currently dating someone else. How could she be dating someone and be married at the same time? Also, this is common knowledge. Her ex husband is currently married to Dania Ramirez Do not revert again unless you think Bev Land is married to two women at the same time. Dumaka (talk) 15:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a WP:BLP issue. Please review the policy. If you wish to add a divorce date or other biographical information, you will need to cite a reliable source. As you seem to be having trouble identifying reliable sources, I would suggest you discuss sources here. If you disagree and feel that one of the sources I have removed is reliable, please take the issue to the reliable sources noticeboard. If, on the other hand, you feel we do not need a reliable source for this claim, please take the issue to the biographies of living persons noticeboard. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Tktv.com is another self-published site. "This is TKTV, frozen in time from the day when I finally decided I no longer had time to update it. I figured I'd leave everything up, and if people wanted to, they could read it. Cheers!"[2] Further, the page cited cuts off in August 2006 and does not, in any way, support the material added. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I removed that source and provided three different reliable sources. This doesn't even need a source since Bev Land can't possibly be married to two women at once. Dumaka (talk) 16:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a WP:BLP issue. We need a reliable source. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Essence magazine, IMO, is a reliable source. However, it does not agree with the claimed divorce in 2007. [The link http://www.essence.com/2008/11/07/sharon-leal-the-sweetheart/] is apparently dated November 2008. The story it links to says it's from December 2009. In it, she says, "I'm going through a divorce right now..." - SummerPhD (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

In one of the other sources it says Bev Land is married to Dania Ramirez. It also says "Land's 11-year-old son, Kai, from his previous marriage to actress Sharon Leal will be on big brother duty." Are you saying that with all this information that we cannot assume that they divorced already? In addition, the other source says "Married October 2001 Divorced 2007" Are you still going to advocate that this information doesn't need to be provided in the article and we should all just assume they never divorced? The only reason I'm editing this article is because I was trying to figure out who she was married to. Every source on the internet reliable or not says that she is divorced and that her ex is currently married to Dania Ramirez (include the Dania Ramirez wiki article). Why should every source on the web reflect this information and not her wiki page? It would be pretty inconsistent to say that she is dating Paul Becker and not mention that she divorced her husband some time ago. Dumaka (talk) 16:56, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I am not "going to say" anything. The article should say what independent reliable sources say. We cannot assume anything. "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing."

"Every source on the internet reliable or not" can say anything at all. Unreliable sources often get their information from other unreliable sources, creating a feedback loop. What unreliable sources say is wholly immaterial here.

If other Wikipedia articles give a divorce date, check their sources. If they have independent reliable sources, we can use them here. If they do not have such sources, the material should be removed from that article as well. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Yahoo TV, from July 2013, says, "Ramirez is a newlywed, having said 'I do' to Land in her native Dominican Republic in February....Land's 11-year-old son, Kai, from his previous marriage to actress Sharon Leal will be on big brother duty." This does not dispute the 2007 date, but does not support it either. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

You're intentionally pulling hairs. Every source out there says Bev Land is married to Dania Ramirez. Do you dispute this fact? The Hollywood.com source I provided (which is a reliable source IMO and you neglected to mention) says they divorced in 2007. I'm trying my best to convince you of this fact but it seems like your going out of your way to ignore it. Dumaka (talk) 17:43, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. I am neither splitting hairs nor going out of my way to ignore anything. We need an independent reliable source saying they divorced in 2007. Suppositions that large numbers of unreliable sources must be right are of no value. So far, we have one reliable source saying she was going thorough a divorce in either late 2008 or late 2009. We also have hollywood.com saying they divorced in 2007. There is clearly a discrepancy there.

I do not immediately see any indication that the page at hollywood.com is reliable. Some of the material on the site seems to be aggregated from other sources (the reliability of the underlying source(s) would then be at issue). Other material seems to be from various contributors, thought I don't see anything to indicate overall fact-checking and editorial control. To hopefully resolve the issue, I have opened a thread at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#hollywood.com_in_a_BLP.

In the meanwhile, this article is still a BLP. With one reliable source that seems to contradict the statement and a second source of indeterminant reliability, I am removing the information. Please wait for that discussion before restoring this claim. If you find other sources that you believe are or may be reliable, please discuss the issue here. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:04, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll wait for the discussion before editing any further. Either way Bev Land cannot be married to two women at once. Dumaka (talk) 18:09, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I did not say she is/was. I said we need a reliable source to add a divorce date. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

References