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Talk:Shirou Emiya/GA1

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Latest comment: 5 years ago by Aoba47 in topic GA Review

GA Review

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Reviewer: Aoba47 (talk · contribs) 17:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Infobox and lead

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  • Since the character’s appearance changes with each game, I would clarify in the infobox image’s caption which game this artwork is from. You could do something similar to the Yuna (Final Fantasy) article.
    • Done.
      • I do not think this part was done because the image caption looks the same to me. This is the only remaining question/comment I have this part and then I will collapse this section to avoid having too much on the page at the same time. Aoba47 (talk) 04:10, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
        • Oops, my mistake. Now fixed.
  • Remember to fill out the “Media data and Non-free use rationale” box for the infobox image. There are several parts with “n.a.”.
    • Done (I think)
  • For this part (an all-powerful, wish-granting device), the word “device” seems strange in this context as it makes me think of something electronic in nature. Maybe a word like “relic” woud be more suitable?
    • Done.
  • I have a few comments about the following part (Shirou is the sole survivor of a fire in a city; he is an honest and good-hearted teenager that enjoys helping others and is inspired by his late foster father, Kiritsugu, who once wanted to become an "ally of justice”.). The overall flow of this part is a little awkward. It jumps from a somewhat short sentence to a much longer sentence. Is the part about Shirou being a survivor of a fire important enough to be included in the lead? It currently sounds somewhat trivial to me in its current wording.
    • Rearranged. Forgot to mention that was how he met Kiritsugu.
  • Also, it is unclear what an “ally of justice” is. I can tell from the quotation marks that it is an in-game word, but without any further clarification, it is not particularly insightful for an unfamiliar reader (such as myself).
    • Made it more simpler.
  • For this part (He also appears in the visual novel sequel Fate/hollow ataraxia by Type-Moon), I would remove “by Type-Moon” as I would assume that every game in a series would be made by the same developer unless otherwise noted.
    • Done.
  • For this part (and the printed and animated adaptations of the visual novel), I would remove “the” in front of “printed”.
    • Done
  • For the same part, would it be helpful to wikilink “printed” to the “manga” article as I am assuming that is what you are referencing here.
    • Done.
  • I have two comments about the “multiple video games” part. First, I do not think that “video games” requires a wikilink as it is a pretty commonly understood term. Second, do you mean more video games in the same series or does it make appearances in games from different developers outside the series? Right now, it just seems a little too vague to me.
    • Done.
  • I would revise this sentence (Shirou and Saber originated from the stories Kinoko Nasu had written as a teenager.) to something like (Kinoko Nasu created Shirou and Saber in stories she had written as a teenager).
    • Done.
  • For this part (to be varied and to reflect the characteristics of his partners), the “to” in front of “reflect” is not necessary.
    • Done
  • For this part (Shirou is regularly voiced by Noriaki Sugiyama in Japanese as a teenager and Junko Noda as a child), I would move “in Japanese” to after “voiced”.
    • Done
  • I would revise this part (due to him changing in the storyline) to something like (his character development and relationship with the character Archer).
    • Done
  • I would reduce this sentence (Regarding the anime series based on the novel, the first anime created by Studio Deen has received mixed responses in regard to Shirou;) down to something simple like (Shirou’s appearance in Studio Deen’s first anime received a mixed response.).
    • Done
  • For this part (critics have praised his relationship with Saber but have disliked Shirou's character at first.), I would change the end part to (but initially dislike Shirou’s character). Aoba47 (talk) 23:04, 28 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
    • Done.

Creation and conception

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  • I would simply the following sentence (Before Kinoko Nasu started writing Fate/stay night, he had written the Fate route of the visual novel for fun in his spare time as a student.) to this suggestion (Before writing Fate/stay night, Kinoko Nasu written the Fate route of the visual novel in his spare time as a student.).
    • Changed to "Before writing Fate/stay night, Kinoko Nasu wrote the Fate route of the visual novel in his spare time as a student."
  • For the above sentence, could you clarify what kind of student he was? There is a rather large difference of starting this in middle school to high school or college or as a graduate student. I would clarify this just to avoid the ambiguity but I would not add too much detail as it is not the main point of this particular article.
    • Clarified
  • I understand what you mean by the word “route” because I have played a few visual novels, but would it be helpful to add the following wikilink [[route to help those who may be unfamiliar with the concept. I know the likelihood of a reader without any basic knowledge of visual novels finding this article may be relatively slim, but it is always best in my opinion to be as accommodating as possible.
    • Done
  • I would revise this part (Shirou Emiya originally wore glasses and was female instead while the heroine Saber was initially male.) to tie it back to the author: (Nasu originally imagined Shirou Emiya as a female character who wore glasses and Saber as male).
    • Changed to "Nasu originally imagined Shirou Emiya as a female character named Ayaka Sajyou who wore glasses and Saber as male."
  • Quick clarification question, but is Saber the main female character of the series/game? I am only curious because it sounds like that with this part (while the heroine Saber was initially male) given the “heroine” word choice. Just wanted to confirm that with you.
  • For this part (The genders were then swapped), I do not believe “then” is necessary. I would also remove “mostly” from later on in the sentence and the comma after “swapped”.
    • Done
  • I would further clarify this sentence (mostly due to Nasu's experience with the novel Tsukihime as) as “experience” can be read multiple ways. I would say something like (due to Nasu’s experience writing the novel Tsukihime as).
    • Done
  • I would revise this part (as Type-Moon believed this would fit into the most recent demographic) to (and Type-Moon’s belief a male protagonist would better fit the target demographic).
    • Done
  • I am a little confused by this sentence (The first Fate storyline shows his slanted mind; the next, Unlimited Blade Works, presents his resolve, and the last storyline, Heaven's Feel, offers him another resolution as a human.). I think that I understand the first two routes, but I got a little confused by the third part. What do you mean by “offers him another resolution as a human”?
  • I am also confused by this sentence (Nasu said it is difficult to call Shirou's relationship with Saber a relationship between a man and a woman due to the Saber's past and Shirou's constant desire to keep her safe from the Holy Grail War in the Fate route.). Could you explain what you mean?
    • The original sentence somewhat inaccurate. Here is the source:
    • "Typical Urobuchi... I really can't pull the wool over your eyes... I intended to take that to the grave with me, but I guess this 10-year anniversary is a good place to talk about it. Just like Urobuchi-san said, it's difficult to call the relationship between Shirou and Saber a relationship between a man and a woman. Saber has fought for a long time as the ruler of Britain, but then turned into a girl all of a sudden and fell in love with Shirou. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. But I really wanted to push it towards that sort of boy-meets-girl story. So as a last resort, I had Shirou continually say things to her like "But you're a girl," and "Girls aren't supposed to fight," in order to remind the users that "she is really a girl." It's like the author's actually the one trying to convince Saber that she's a girl... I feel like I could have written it a lot better now, but that was the best I could do at the time."
    • I changed it to "Nasu said it is difficult to call Shirou's relationship with Saber a relationship between a man and a woman because after ruling Britain under the pretenses of being a male, she "turned into a girl all of a sudden and fell in love with Shirou" with a quote because I couldn't think of a good way to word it. TranquilHope (talk) 09:13, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
  • I have two comments for this sentence (Nasu further stated that while Rin Tohsaka is female, her characterization is highly different from Saber's and Shirou would still fall for her.). The Rin Tohsaka character is introduced rather abruptly in this section. I have not played this game/series so I have no idea who this person. Also, how does it fit in with this particular paragraph? The flow seems a little strange to me as it seems to come from nowhere. I would be careful with how you introduce other characters in the article as you would need to make sure that everything is cohesive. Let me know if this makes sense.
    • I also feel like the sentence is out of place. I think the original intention of the sentence was to compare Rin's relationship with Shirou to Saber's, but I am now doubting the necessity of this sentence (and also the previous one). TranquilHope (talk) 09:41, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
      • Thank you for the comment. Maybe there is a better place in the article for these sentences, but right now they do seem out of place and it does interrupt the flow and focus of the section. Aoba47 (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
        • Removed.
  • So this sentence (are characters who face personal problems while other older characters do not) means that the older characters do not have any “personal problems” at all? I would find that somewhat hard to believe. They may have different types of problems, but I would not imagine any fictional character being immune from problems (otherwise they would be pretty bland/boring).
  • I would revise this sentence (In order to create variation between the skilled heroes from the visual novel, Shirou was conceived as an amateur magician.) to something like this to read a little clearer: (Shirou was conceived as an amateur magician to create a strong contrast with the skilled heroes from the visual novel.)
    • Done
  • I would try to simplify this sentence (Nevertheless, the magical skills that Shirou develops throughout the Unlimited Blade Works storyline were conceptualized as a significant development a normal person could not achieve, with Nasu stating that Shirou was a weaker fighter in the Fate route) to something like: (Nasu stated that Shirou was a weaker fighter in the Fate route, but the character’s magical skills significantly developed the Unlimited Blade Works storyline beyond the capability of a normal person).
    • Changed to "Nevertheless, Nasu stated that Shirou was a weaker fighter in the Fate route, but the character’s magical skills developed significantly in the Unlimited Blade Works storyline beyond the capability of a normal person."
  • I would revise this part (As a foreshadowing of Shirou and Saber's first meeting) to (To foreshadow Shirou and Saber's first meeting). Keep the wikilink though.
    • Done
  • For this part (a Heroic Spirit. In the Heaven's Feel route from the original visual novel, but he did not specify whether Shirou would become the same Archer), I am assuming you mean for this to be one sentence as the second sentence is a fragment.
    • Fixed
  • Move the “Archer” wikilink up to the first time you mention the character.
    • Already done
  • I think for this part (He felt that to be lacking and too orthodox), you can just say (He felt that it was too standard). Orthodox sounds a little weird to me in this context.
    • Done
  • For this part (because of his unique eyebrows), is there an explanation on how his eyebrows are “unique”?
  • I would revise this part (Nasu and Takeuchi focused on making Shirou with the absence of unique visual characteristics to make it easier for the audience to project themselves onto his character) to something like (Nasu and Takeuchi created Shirou without unique visual characters so the audience could easily project themselves onto his character).
    • Done
  • I would change the “Further characterization” subsection title to “Development” as the current wording sounds a little strange to me.
    • Done

Apologies for the large amount of comments. Sorry if I am doing too much. The article is in very good shape and I am really enjoying reading it. I am just going through it very slowly and carefully to try and make it the best that it could possibly be and be the best reviewer for you. I will collapse comments as they are addressed to avoid having too many things visible at once and to make the progress a little clearer and more visible. I hope that this is helpful in some way. On an extremely random note, it is inspiring me to get back into my Japanese studies. Aoba47 (talk) 04:30, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Thanks to both Aoba47 and Tranquilhope.Tintor2 (talk) 15:43, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I see. Thanks for the other edit.Tintor2 (talk) 17:38, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Development

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  • I would revise the last part of this sentence (During the making of the anime series Unlimited Blade Works, Ufotable said they wished to depict Shirou's character as a better fit for the characters of Fate/Zero because they wanted this anime to have a darker tone and to act as a follow-up.) to something like (said that they wished to develop Shirou to better fit with other characters in Fate/Zero and the anime’s darker tone.)
    • Done.
  • For this part (In the making of the anime series, Nasu explained that Shirou), I do not believe “In the making of the anime series” is needed as it is clear from the previous sentence that this is what you are referencing.
    • Done.
  • For this part (Shirou was made more comical than his original counterpart), I think you can just say “Shirou was made more comical” and it would be understood without the rest.
    • Done.
  • For this part (in order to become), I would drop “in order to” and just say “to”.
    • Done (I think)
  • Remember to wikilink Rin on the first mention (it is this part “Shirou would bond with Rin in a similar way to how it happened in” in the previous section).
    • Done
  • For this part (Japanese pop singer and lyricist Aimer), I do not believe a wikilink for “lyrcisit” is necessary.
    • Done
  • For this part (which explore Shirou.), it should be “explores”.
    • Done
  • For this part (Aimer also did research in the relationship between Jesus and his traitor Judas Iscariot), I would use “disciple” rather than “traitor”.
    • Done
  • For this part (how the two met, became close), it should be “met and became close”.
    • Done
  • For this part (Hiroyama wanted to make Shirou select a "route" during his flashback chapters as he embarks on a quest to protect his sister, Miyu.), I do not believe “route” needs the quotation marks. Aoba47 (talk) 17:50, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
    • Done

Voice actors

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  • I would revise this part (who had enjoyed his role as the character's voice actor ever since his debut) to remove “as the character’s voice actor” as it is somewhat repetitive with the earlier part of the sentence.
    • Done
  • Wouldn’t this sentence (Shirou's line "I am the bone of my sword", which he says when fighting, is popular among the fandom.) be more appropriate for the “Popularity” subsection?
    • Done
  • Make sure to use Miyu Satsuk’s full name when you first use it (i.e. during his flashback chapters as he embarks on a quest to protect his sister, Miyu).
    • Done
  • For this part (Sugiyama enjoyed working as Shirou again and said Shirou acted in a different way due), I am not sure that this part (enjoyed working as Shirou again and) is necessary. I am not sure what it adds to a reader’s understanding.
    • Done
  • For this part (Sugiyama expressed surprise and delight), I would use “was surprised and delighted” instead and for this part (He expressed understanding of how Shirou's character was treated in the film), I would say “he understood” instead. I have been told that the phrasing “expressed…” is somewhat awkward.
    • Done
  • I would combine these two sentences (Sam Riegel was Shirou's first English voice actor. As a child, Shirou is voiced by Mona Marshall.) to something like (Sam Riegel was Shirou's first English voice actor, and Mona Marshall voiced Shirou as a child.) Something about the second sentence sounds a little off to me so that is why I revised it a little more than the first one.
  • For this part ( a conviction with the Japanese actors), I believe you mean “convention”. Aoba47 (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
    • Done

Thank you for addressing everything so far. Aoba47 (talk) 19:50, 29 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Characteristics

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  • I think you can condense this sentence (Shirou Emiya is a red-haired Japanese teenager who attends high school) down to (Shirou Emiya is a red-haired Japanese high school student) as it is generally assumed that high school students are teenagers.
    • Done.
  • For this part (Shirou's parents die in a fire), I think it should be “died” as it is in the past even within the game’s storylines.
    • Done
  • For this part (Shirou is saved from this fire by Kiritsugu Emiya), I would remove “from this fire” as I think a reader would understand from the context of the previous sentence.
    • Done.
  • For this part (who then adopts him and teaches basic magic to the young child.), I would say “teaches him basic magic” instead.
    • Done.
  • Apologies in advance if this is a silly question, but I have never played this series before so I do not know the story at all. I was somewhat confused by this part (an "ally of justice", someone who saves as many people as possible). Who or what determines who is an “ally of justice”? If it only involves saving people, how can someone fail (other than just not saving anyone at all)?
    • Done
  • For this part (becomes a way of life), I would say “his way of life”.
    • Done
  • For this part (and feels that, as the only survivor of the fire, it is disrespectful), I think you can remove “as the only survivor of the fire” as saying that he has survivor’s guilt already makes that clear in my opinion.
    • Done.
  • Could this part (project weapons such as two small twin swords and replicas of other weapons he knows, most notably the twin swords Kanshou and Bakuya (干将・ 莫耶)) just be cut down to something like (project weapons most notably the twin swords Kanshou and Bakuya (干将・ 莫耶))? The other parts do not seem that necessary to me.
    • Done.
  • For this part (most notably the extra-dimensional weapons, known as), I do not believe the comma after “weapons” is necessary.
    • Done
  • For this part (a hero of justice), do you mean “ally of justice”? Aoba47 (talk) 02:14, 30 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
    • Done.

In Fate/stay night

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  • In this part (As the 2004 visual novel opens), is the release date really important? I would cut it as it could somewhat confusing to see the date in a section about the story when the game is not set during this time period.
  • This is more of a clarification question, but I was a little confused by this sentence (the latter ambushes and kills Shirou, who is then revived by Archer's master, Rin Tohsaka). How exactly could Shirou be revived if he was killed? If this is possible according to this game’s reality, then why were his parents or Kiritsugu not revived? I am not sure if any changes are needed to the actual text, but I just found this somewhat surprising on the first read.
    • Done. This one is a bit confusing as in the visual novel Rin doesn't understand if that the scabbard Avalon was trying to keep his body alive.
  • For this (As Lancer again attacks the teenager, Shirou accidentally summons the servant Saber, who protects him and repels Lancer.), I would avoid using phases like “the teenager” as it sounds a little awkward to me. I would just say: (When Lancer attacks him again, Shirou accidentally summons the servant Saber who drives Lancer away.)
    • Done.
  • I would remove “the servant” in front of Saber since it is redundant considering this part (Saber introduces herself as his servant) in the next sentence.
    • Done.
  • This part (Saber is the reincarnation of King Arthur, who blames herself for the fall of Britain and wishes to find a more suitable candidate to pull the sword Excalibur from the stone and assume her place as ruler) is grammatically incorrect as it reads literally that “King Arthur is the one “who blames herself for the fall of Britain…”. I would just make the part after “King Arthur” into its own sentence to avoid this.
    • Reworded
  • Yet another clarification question, but where is this game set? I assumed Japan given the lead character’s nationality, the fact that the game is Japanese, and some of the names, but the introduction of King Arthur and Britain is a little jarring. Could you clarify in the start where the game is set?
    • Moved it to the beginning of Fate/stay night.
  • For this part (chooses the rightful king of Englandm), I think you mean “England”.
    • Done.
  • There is a lot of information in this sentence (When preparing for the final fight against Kirei Kotomineand his servant, Gilgamesh, who intend to sacrifice Illya to create the Grail, Shirou returns Avalon to Saber so that she can fight with Excalibur's full strength.). I would separate it into two as putting that much stuff into a single sentence makes it somewhat difficult for a reader to really follow it all.
    • Reworded
  • Move the wikilink to “Avalon” to the first time you mention.
    • Sorry, the thing is that in the story there are three things named Avalon. First the scabbard that Shirou had in his body, Saber's strongest attack and then the island based on myths.
  • I am a little confused with this sentence (or at least erasing the ideal of being an ally of justice from Shirou's world.). Does it mean that he wants to erase this ideal of becoming an ally of justice so no one else will have it? If so, I am not certain how killing one person will completely remove that goal from people’s minds all at once. Could you clarify this for me?
    • Done.
  • I would avoid using “ideal” twice in the same sentence as done here (Although he refuses to give up his ideal entirely, Shirou works toward a compromise in which he will strive for fulfilling his ideal despite knowing that it is borrowed.). Aoba47 (talk) 02:30, 30 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
    • Done. Replacffed with it.

In Fate/hollow ataraxia

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  • For this part (aware of what has happened to them since the first time the loop began.), I think you can just say “since it began” as it would be clear from the context. Aoba47 (talk) 03:16, 30 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
    • Done.

Appearances in other media

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  • For this part (Shirou's appearance when using the Archer card was different because Hiroshi Hiroyama originally wanted him to wear fewer clothes.), I would revise it to something like this, (Hiroshi Hiroyama originally wanted Shirou to wear fewer clothes while using the Archer card but settled to have only his right arm uncovered.), as I think it would be more helpful to be more specific.
    • Done
  • For this part (Shirou is later freed from prison), I would add "the" in front of the "prison".
    • Done.
  • For this part (their home while explaining their allies), I believe it should be "while explaining to their allies". The "to" part is missing.
    • Done.
  • Couldn't this part (Years after being adopted by Kiritsugu, Shirou decides to follow his guardian's dreams of being a hero as he dies while interacting with him.) be reduced to something like (After Kiritsugu's death, Shirou decides to follow his guardian's dreams of being a hero.).
    • Done.
  • I would simply this part (in which he enjoys his daily life because his hometown was not destroyed by the fire of the Fourth Holy Grail War) down to (in which his hometown was not destroyed by the fire of the Fourth Holy Grail War).
  • I would revise this part (the fire of the Fourth Holy Grail War) to (a fire caused by the Fourth Holy Grail War) as I am assuming there was more than one fire during this war.
    • In what part of the article is that? Can't find it.
  • I would revise this sentence (He, along with other characters from Tsukihime, Melty Blood, and the rest of the Fate/stay night characters, appears in the 2011 anime Carnival Phantasm.) to (He appears in Melty Blood alongside other characters from Tsukihime and in the 2011 anime Carnival Phantasm with the rest of the Fate/stay night characters.).
    • Done.
  • I would add a descriptive phrase in front of Melty Blood to let the reader know what this is.
    • Reworded.
  • I am a little confused by this part (Shirou appears as a Saber-class Servant under). I thought Saber was a character and it is not being referenced as a class/type of servant. Could you clarify this?
    • Reworded. Saber, Archer, among others are just titles for servants.
  • I was also a little confused by this part (uses Tsumugari Muramasa to destroy Amakusa's Onri Edo Castle during the story). Who is Amakusa? This is the only mention in the article of this character.
    • Removed.
  • Remove the "video game" wikilink for this part (Shirou also appears in the video game Divine Gate).
    • Done.
  • For this part (resulted from the fire and Kiritsugu's tutelage in basic magic was released), it should be "resulting" instead of "resulted". Aoba47 (talk) 17:43, 30 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
    • Done.

|}

Thank you for addressing everything so far. Aoba47 (talk) 18:16, 30 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

If it is okay with you, I will be taking a break from the review tomorrow (Sunday for me). There are a few non-Wikipedia things I need to get done. I will hopefully wrap up the review by the end of Monday. Thank you for your patience with this. Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 31 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

No problem. Thanks for reviewing the article so quickly. By the way, I noted your edit comment so I tried trimming the reception section by joing similar responses. Cheers.Tintor2 (talk) 02:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Aoba47: Thanks to BattleGrab for the copyedit of that section.Tintor2 (talk) 22:20, 2 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

Popularity

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  • For this part (Merchandise, including rubber straps and figures, has been modeled after Shirou.), I would use “have” instead of “has”.
  • I would remove this sentence (Cosplays of Shirou have also been made) for two reasons. Amazon as a source is strongly discouraged and it does not appear that it is connected in any way with the company in an official capacity. I would only mention cosplay is it was picked up and discussed by a reliable news source. I am pretty sure you can find cosplay on pretty much any character (particularly an anime character) on platforms like Amazon relatively easily.
  • Move this sentence (Shirou's line "I am the bone of my sword", which he says when fighting, is popular among the fandom as cited by Sugiyama.) to the second paragraph which deals more with the popularity of the character. The first paragraph is more on the merchandise.
  • Could you clarify what is being used to support this sentence (He once again appeared in the magazine's poll, taking the 10th spot in May of the same year.). I am uncertain if Reference 111 is being used to support the information or not. Aoba47 (talk) 03:22, 1 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
  • Done.

I will wait until the request copy-edit takes place before I review the “Critical reception” section. Aoba47 (talk) 03:22, 1 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

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