Talk:Swiss

Redirect proposal

Disambiguation pages are for a list of article that might share the same name, not a listing of related articles. So Swiss should redirect to Switzerland, and this dab should be moved to Swiss (disambiguation).

• Propose and Support.--Commander Keane 17:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

My thoughts on this is the related to section should be entirely removed and move the relevant DAB options to be with the rest of the article, I Support Swiss being redirected to Switzerland as this article has all the "related to" topics necessary at the bottom Thaagenson 15:54, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Done.--Commander Keane 15:42, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Repeated same process-Gwguffey (talk) 19:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Removals and reasons

Red-links

Please add these back when articles are present or anticipated:

No-links

• Swiss Pairs or Teams events in the card game bridge (top two play each other, etc.)

Requested move 12 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Cleanup required. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist | wear a mask, protect everyone 15:10, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

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Swiss (disambiguation) → Swiss – Looking at the history of the redirect Swiss, you can see its target has oscillated between Switzerland, Swiss people and Swiss International Airlines, and there have been several suggestions (like in the 2010 RM above) for moving the dab page to the primary title. Disambiguating should be the obvious choice when people can't agree on the target of a redirect. And as far as I can see there's no primary topic for the term – it's unlikely that readers looking for the country will search for "Swiss" rather than "Switzerland", and the readers who do search for "Swiss" are likely to be looking for things that are Swiss, like the people or the airline. – Uanfala (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Pings to editors who have debated the topic or edited the redirect in the last ten years: Mclay1, PC78, Cjc13, MadGeographer, Jafeluv, Amakuru, Station1, Born2cycle, Kotniski, JJMC89, MilanKovacevic, SrpskiAnonimac, Tomchen1989, LoDeBo, JaGa, Champion, Anthony Appleyard, Wbm1058. Noting that the redirect has over 1,200 incoming links from articles. – Uanfala (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support. It seems unlikely that someone typing "Swiss" would be looking for the country Switzerland. And although it maybe appropriate for wikilinks to point there if someone writes "Roger Federer is a [[Swiss]] tennis player" or something, there will also be other cases where something else is intended and it will be useful for the disambiguation WikiProject to handle those cases.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:02, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
• I hear "1,200 incoming links" and I think what a pain-in-the-butt make-work task it would be to try to "disambiguate" them. I think I have a good idea where a lot of these links are coming from – biographies – and randomly checking one, Jacques Piccard, I see in the infobox: Nationality: Swiss. Is that a WP:OVERLINK? I mean, who the hell doesn't know that "Swiss" means Switzerland? Is the reader who came to the page to learn about the oceanographer more likely to want to know more about the country, or its people, when they decide to go off on a tangent and click that link to a topic that's only extremely remotely relevant to the oceanographer. Hell if I know; hell if I care. Hmm, "American". Well, I guess it can be done. I'm inclined to leave well enough alone, as nothing is broken here. But, if this moves, then that breaks things and I hope that someone else is willing to step up and make the necessary fixes. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:19, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support - When we refer to demonyms, they are normally disambiguation pages because they can refer to something about the country or the country's people. For example, American. I also suggest that Canadian (disambiguation) be moved to Canadian which is a redirect to Canadians. Interstellarity (talk) 13:25, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
• Weak support for the same reason as South African, given the the language isn't primary for English presumably mainly because of the people I don't think the country its self is here. The cheese though a PTM and the more obscure topics like the US places seem to also support the idea that its safest to disambiguate. There is a Languages of Switzerland article though. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose unless and until all 1200+ incoming wikilinks are cleaned up first. Someone was going to do that 10 years ago, but I don't know how much was accomplished since then. It's not fair to push off that unnecessary task to others and not right to make readers who click on wikilinks wind up on the dab page in the meantime. As it is, I suspect the large majority of links do intend Switzerland, and even those that would better point to Swiss people are not actually "wrong" to point to Switzerland. Other than the airline, there really are no other significant targets for Swiss. Switzerland gets over 12,000 hits/day while the redirect gets about 70 hits/day and despite the hatnote on Switzerland the dab page gets only about 15 hits/day, indicating no significant problem with the current setup.[1] "Swiss people" could be added directly to the hatnote if desired. (I should also point out that Swiss has consistently redirected to Switzerland since 2004, with the exception of only a few months total over that period; it has not been unstable.) Station1 (talk) 19:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

  @Station1: I would be willing to clean up those links if this RM passes. Interstellarity (talk) 20:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

  OK. If you're agreeing to clean up all the links either before or within a couple of days after a move, my position changes to neutral. If there are no incoming wikilinks, it will be relatively unimportant if the redirect becomes a dab page. Station1 (talk) 20:30, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

  @Station1: I have requested AutoWikiBrowser rights to help me with this task. It might be a while before I do this depending on when my request is granted or not granted. Interstellarity (talk) 20:55, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm also going through the links, and in several places using AWB you have actually changed the displayed text from "Swiss" to "Switzerland" while retaining the link to Swiss, i.e. replaced with [[Swiss|Switzerland]] instead of [[Switzerland|Swiss]]. I've reversed the pipe or, more often, replaced with [[Swiss people|Swiss]] which perhaps you had intended. 94.21.252.238 (talk) 20:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

• The comment that the country has been the stable target since 2004 prompted me to re-examine the history of the redirect. I really can't say it's been stable – the target has been changed 24 times since 2002, but yeah, the country has been the target for most of this time: 5475 days vs. 827 days as a dab page vs. 76 days pointing to the airline vs. 1 day targeting the people (with 155 days in 2016 where the history is not visible).

History of the page Swiss

Date of edit Target Days spent 12-May-2020 Swiss people 0 29-Apr-2017 Switzerland 1109 1-Mar-2017 Switzerland 59 27-Sep-2016 History not visible 155 3-Feb-2016 Switzerland 237 2-Feb-2016 Airline 1 10-Jan-2016 Switzerland 23 2-Jan-2016 Airline 8 23-Nov-2015 Switzerland 40 23-Nov-2015 Airline 0 22-Jun-2015 Switzerland 154 11-Nov-2013 Switzerland 588 5-Sep-2013 Airline 67 5-Sep-2013 Airline 0 5-Sep-2013 Airline 0 2-Aug-2010 Switzerland 1130 2-Aug-2010 Swiss people 0 31-Mar-2009 Switzerland 489 30-Mar-2009 Dab page 1 30-Mar-2009 Dab page 0 5-Jan-2008 Switzerland 450 5-Jan-2008 Dab page 0 5-Jan-2008 Dab page 0 5-Jan-2008 Dab page 0 4-Jan-2008 Dab page 1 4-Jan-2008 Dab page 0 26-Dec-2007 Dab page 9 20-Dec-2007 Dab page 6 4-Dec-2007 Dab page 16 2-Dec-2007 Dab page 2 2-Dec-2007 Switzerland 0 1-Dec-2007 Dab page 1 1-Dec-2007 Dab page 0 1-Dec-2007 Dab page 0 18-Nov-2005 Switzerland 743 22-Sep-2005 Dab page 57 18-Feb-2005 Dab page 216 8-Jun-2004 Switzerland 255 31-May-2004 Switzerland 8 31-May-2004 Switzerland 0 27-Dec-2003 Dab page 156 14-Dec-2003 Dab page 13 14-Dec-2003 Dab page 0 14-Jun-2003 Dab page 183 10-Apr-2003 Dab page 65 30-Dec-2002 Dab page 101 23-Jun-2002 Switzerland 190

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As for the pageviews – 15 a day for the dab page vs. 70 for the redirect Swiss – that would indicate a primary topic if there weren't any incoming links. But there are quite a few of them, so it's not at all clear what proportion of traffic comes from these links. We can't know, but my experience so far has been that if the dab page receives more than 1/10th of the traffic, then RMs arguing for the absence of a primary topic have usually been successful. – Uanfala (talk) 21:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree with your comment that it's unlikely anyone searching for Switzerland would search for Swiss, and since there are 1200+ incoming links and only 70 hits per day, I think it's likely that most of those hits are coming from links. That's why, if those links are cleaned up, I think those 70 hits will drop very significantly, and it will then be relatively unimportant whether Swiss is a redirect or a dab page. I think some editors will still link to Swiss expecting it to be a redirect, but those can be corrected fairly easily as they occur. Station1 (talk) 22:37, 12 May 2020 (UTC)}}

• Leaning support, in keeping with our common treatment of national adjectives. I would also be willing to assist with link cleanup. BD2412 T 21:26, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Note: I fixed about 250 links that clearly should have been pointing to Swiss people, so it's under 950 now. BD2412 T 03:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support: Since some should be [[Switzerland|Swiss]] and others should be [[Swiss people|Swiss]], it seems it would be better to change Swiss to be a disambiguation page and then use tools (e.g. AWB, WPCleaner, Dab solver) to fix the links, instead of trying to fix the links and then make it a disambig page. GoingBatty (talk) 23:22, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support The reasoning for is solid, and the sole counterargument against is "it's going to be a lot of work", which is not a valid reason not to do it. Paradoctor (talk) 00:25, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support per my reasoning in the previous move request. M.Clay1 (talk) 07:38, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Format

ZH8000, if you're wondering why people continue making that edit, the reason is that the "established" version simply followed the format for a dab page with a primary topic (see MOS:DABPRIMARY). If there's no primary topic, then the format is almost always changed to the standard, where there's no single entry singled out at the top. I don't believe there's much of a difference either way, but the format with each of the two entries - for the country and the people - on individual bulleted lines seems a bit clearer. – Uanfala (talk) 12:45, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@ZH8000: I agree with Uanfala. I would recommend changing it back. Interstellarity (talk) 15:09, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Uanfala: Well, I see. I thought that "adjectival form" is more generally valid and the linguistically correct term than just rewriting it. "Something of, from or relating to" is not exactly the same. But that's my academic attitude, I suppose. -- ZH8000 (talk) 17:53, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Besides, if we use "adjectival form" then "Swiss may also refer to: Swiss people" becomes obsolete. -- ZH8000 (talk) 17:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)