Talk:The Holocaust and the Nakba

First line

Unless you are going to say how they are interrelated, it might be better to start with the line "The 2018 book The Holocaust and the Nakba makes the case that "unless we can hold these two moments in our hearts and minds as part of the same story, there can be no moving forward in the seemingly unmovable conflict that is Israel-Palestine".

Just a suggestion. Selfstudier (talk) 11:15, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

The linking of the two has a fairly long history, so showcasing a late book as the pivot of the page would be awkward. The tasks at hand are manifold. Early postwar Zionist historiography (we need an article on this) linked the leader of one major faction, Amin al-Husseini, to to the Holocaust and by implication, the putative 'genocidal' thrust of the 'invasions' (I put that in inverted commas because if you look at the geographical location also of Israeli units on May 5 1948, many are outside the borders defined for that state by the Nov 47 resolution (unlike Jordan's case) and were in an offensive posture paralleling that of the Syrians, Iraqis etc).

In any case we should all collaborate with Buidhe in searching for the first emergence of comparisons between the two. The nakba is not comparable to the Holocaust (the Holocaust however is not 'unique'), obviously. But the nakba is certainly incomprehensible without the Holocaust.Nishidani (talk) 13:20, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

On that note, I've just added this source, which claims, not unreasonably, that the first unabashed intellectual comparisons emerged around the turn of the century. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:00, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Esther Webman works

@Shrike: Have you actually read into those two Esther Webman works beyond the online synopses? Neither mention the Nakba in their summaries and both seem to be more about polemicizing discussion of the Holocaust (the first in relation to denial; the second in relation to metaphoric usage), rather than assessing the potential meaningfulness of thematic parallels between the Holocaust and the Nakba. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:09, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

I have full version of both . The both mention it and both discussed how Palestinian historiography equate Holocaust and Naqba Shrike (talk) 10:04, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, please add that information. That you have the sources is nice to know, but pointless unless you share the details by assisting collaboratively in the construction of the page. Nishidani (talk) 10:27, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

I have added them to the literature so anyone interested may add the relevant information I may do it too. If anyone wants the sources write me an email Shrike (talk) 10:28, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Please don't throw the burden on the tired shoulders of the few editors who actually try to build the encyclopedia. Help them more constructively. For example, what is the earliest date in 'Palestinian' historiography for a source drawing that comparison, according to Webman?Nishidani (talk) 10:43, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Vilnai's remark 2008

Though it did not directly link the Holocaust to the nakba, it did speak of the Holocaust as something the Palestinians by their resistance were moving to bring upon themselves.

"(The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio. . .Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events.Israeli minister warns of Palestinian 'holocaust' The Guardian 29 February 2008

I suggest something like the following be added (glossing those texts affirming Israelis use it exclusively of Jews. The Guardian adds (efn footnote?)

After a tit-for-change exchange of missile and rocket fire between Israeli and Gaza forces, which resulted in the death of 32 Palestinians and 1 Israeli, Israel’s deputy defense minister Matan Vilnai spoke of the possible eventuality of Palestinians bringing about on themselves a ‘bigger shoah’Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

WW2 Holocaust history is present in Israeli thinking of the Palestinians as a problem-The Israeli captain who analysed how to fix the Gazan population by drawing on Nazi tactics against the Jews in the Waraw ghetto being an egregious instance (Haaretz ca 2000-2001. No longer available but I have it somewhere in my archive)Nishidani (talk) 20:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The article isn't finished yet but is it time to move to mainspace? (t · c) buidhe 05:44, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Seems mainspace viable after your recent work. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:12, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

There's no problem with moving it to mainspace but the following requires drastic rethinking because it presents as a fact what is a speculation about Palestinians' level of civilisation (how would Moses or Lemkin have classified Yemeni, Kurdish, Iraqi or Moroccan Jews in the the 1940s, more 'civilised' that say fellahin because they belonged to the same 'race' as the Ashkenazi elite?) I. e

Raphael Lemkin, the inventor of the concept of genocide, supported Zionism and likely considered the Nakba justified in line with mainstream Zionist views. Although he championed the independence of "small nations", especially the Jews, Lemkin did not believe that insufficiently civilized nations such as Palestinian Arabs should be granted independenceNishidani (talk) 07:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Nishidani, the source doesn't address what Lemkin might have though of Mizrahim at all. The key passage is:

Like Lauterpacht and other political Zionists covered in this chapter, he [Lemkin] was well disposed to the British Empire as a vehicle for civilizational development, meaning the rule of law and protection of small nations, above all Jews. Such protection did not extend to granting independence to groups like Palestinian Arabs who were not considered sufficiently developed to qualify as “nations.” Settler colonialism under the aegis of liberal empire was the vehicle of civilizational progress

I see now that there's a mistake, changed nations to groups. (t · c) buidhe 08:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I think the paraphrasing led to a bit of a drift in meaning there, so I've reworked that text into what is, I think, a closer reflection of the passage above. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:39, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to see Lemkin's ipsissima verba re Palestinians. At the moment that could be construed as what Moses (if so attribution is required) thought Lemkin would have thought. (b)'who were not considered sufficiently developed to qualify as “nations.” 'What does 'sufficiently developed' at that time mean? Familiarity with the accounts of Mizrachi aliyah to Israel present startlingly primitive conditions, and the Ashkenazi elite, reflecting the general western European but esp. German-Jewish unease with what they considered the extremely primitive culture, ugly poverty and mental closet-mindedness of masses of Eastern European Jews, treated them with condescension and contempt. They are here swept into a grab-all category of 'nation' because of their religious status, but 'nation' is a highly ambiguous word with both an ethnic and a political nuance that are hard to reconcile, despite Anthony Smith's best attempts to do so.Nishidani (talk) 12:26, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Nishidani, I've had another look and I don't think Moses quotes Lemkin regarding Palestinians. (t · c) buidhe 15:24, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

note about acceptance of the article

I think this is a basically very fair article, and therefore I accepted it. I decided to refrain from detailed copyediting. This does no mean that it's unnecessary, but that te overall editing for conciseness and the avoidance of duplication is more than I can undertake at the moment.

More important, the title is unsatisfactory: Beginning the title with "The" makes it almost unfindable. The key substantive words should be in the title, especially the beginning of the title. I'm not sure what would be best, but as a first step I have moved it to "Holocaust and Nakba--a comparison". I leave further action to others.

I am aware of the editing restrictions in this area; I am also aware of the current arb com case. I'm refraining from getting involved at the moment--as I mention on my user talk page, I am dealing with very time --consuming medical problems involving a member of my family--I don't want to make the details public, but they will require the majority of both my time and my energy for the indefinite future. I'm trying nonetheless to keep some contact with WP. I would also rather not mention in public my view of the underlying real world situation, and my general political orientation that has led me to them, If you'd like to discuss, we could do it off wiki. DGG ( talk ) 04:54, 22 February 2023 (UTC) Reply

• The reason why "the" is used in the title is for consistency with The Holocaust. I am not sure what would be the best title, but the previous one was chosen because it was intended to cover any intersection between the two historical events including arguments that there is a causal connection, which is not covered by the "comparison" wording. Also, some argue that the two events cannot be compared. (t · c) buidhe 05:11, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

@DGG: Is this double hyphen a workaround because m-dashes are not supported in the tiles/urls, and if so, is this an accepted approach in terms of the style guidelines? I'm not sure I've seen this before and am curious on several levels. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:35, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd completely forgotten about this article (old age?) until my attention was (re)drawn to it by DGG's courtesy note on my page, and looking this up, noted that I had indeed commented here last year. I'll try to help out when I get some time (and a functional computer).Nishidani (talk) 08:57, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Comparisons between the Holocaust and the Nakba? The multi dash in the title to me is very non-standard. nableezy - 15:34, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I boldly moved it because the title was clearly not MOS compliant. I do not much like the title or, for that matter, the article. The first sentence does not seem to establish that comparison is the subject. I find statements like In Israel, all Israeli Jews are considered survivors of the Holocaust who must implement the imperative of never again to be a Jewish victim in Israel. very hard to take seriously. What is it even supposed to mean? Srnec (talk) 03:36, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

This would be a much better title. It clearly and concisely indicates what the article is about. Simply "The Holocaust and the Nakba" is quite odd—I thought it was the title of a book at first. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:07, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Any objections to making this change? @DGG, @Buidhe, @Iskandar323, @Nishidani, @Srnec IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

The proposed title "Comparisons between the Holocaust and the Nakba" doesn't accurately state the article scope. The majority of the article is not related to comparisons and would have to be removed if this move gained consensus. (t · c) buidhe 02:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Buidhe. Bad move.Nishidani (talk) 07:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

You're right, I should have known that. Thank you for correcting me.

I do still think however the current name of the article needs to change. What specifically is the article about? It currently seems like one article about two things. A few rough suggestions follow: "The interconnectedness of the Holocaust and the Nakba", "Claims of connection between the Holocaust and the Nakba".

Also maybe there could be a page created for "Comparisons between the Holocaust and the Nakba", and within that page there could be a section devoted to these claims/analyses regarding connections between the two events. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC) Stricken IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Quotations for potential inclusion

Netiva Ben-Yehuda, an iconic Palmach fighter who took part in the battle for Tiberias, was uncompromising in her description of the events. “Such pictures were known to us. It was the way things had always been done to us, in the Holocaust, throughout the world war, and all the pogroms. Oy, how well we knew those pictures. And here – here, we were doing these awful things to others,” she wrote. “We loaded everything onto the van – with a terrible trembling of the hands. And that wasn’t because of the weight. Even now my hands are shaking, just from writing about it."[1]

"Pearson had written that "in preventing Arab refugees from returning to their native land, the Jews may be subject to the same kind of criticism for which I and others have criticised intolerant Gentiles . . . Now we have a situation in which the Jews have done to others what Hitler, in a sense, did to them!" -Benny Morris, The birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949, page 276

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 15:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

• David Ben-Gurion, attributed in 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War, Benny Morris

1949 The First Israelis by Tom Segev: Reports of atrocities committed by Israeli soldiers during the course of the conquest, and also afterwards, preoccupied the government in several of its sessions. The information which reached the ministers shocked them and led to one of the most severe comments ever made in a Cabinet meeting. Aharon Cizling, Minister of Agriculture, said

I’ve received a letter on the subject. I must say that I have known what things have been like for some time and I have raised the issue several times already here. However after reading this letter I couldn’t sleep all night. I felt the things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here. I could not imagine where we came from and to where are we going... I often disagreed when the term Nazi was applied to the British. I wouldn’t like to use the term, even though the British committed Nazi crimes. But now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken... Obviously we have to conceal these actions from the public, and I agree that we should not even reveal that we’re investigating them. But they must be investigated...

-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)