Talk:The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia

The source is missing

(some of whom survived), gives a maximum total of 11,900-12,900 Jews who survived with the Partisans and/or on Italian territory, or were killed in Germany. Given the prewar total of 39,000 NDH Jews, this means up to 26,000-27,000, potentially even more, could have been killed by the Ustaše, slightly more than the Yugoslav estimates Tomasevich cites.

• Information from the source without confirmation in the sources. Since the numbers are wrong(according to the information from the article itself) this information is WP:OR and WP:FRINGE, so I suggest that we decide together what to do with this information. Mikola22 (talk) 15:11, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

  Figures of a total of 6,200 Croatian Jews sent to Nazi camps are from both Tomasevich and Goldstein. Remaining figures for Jews who survived by escaping to Italy, and then number among these who joined Partisans, are directly from Goldstein source (Tomashevich does not give these latter figures, perhaps did not have them, thus his conclusions are based on guesses or speculation). In any case there is not a single figure cited that is not sourced in reliable sources. Rest is simple addition and subtraction, based on these reliably sourced figures, including where Tomashevich shows no figures to prove his claim. Btw, Goldstein estimates 17.500 Jewish victims for Jasenovac, plus 2.500 for Jadovno-Pag, plus 1,000 for Djakovo-Loborgrad, thus this is already 21,000 killed in just these 4 Ustashe camps, before getting to those killed in in other Ustashe concentration camps. Given that the 25,000 to 26,000 postwar Yugoslav commission estimate was made in 1946, in the postwar chaos, it's not that far off from Goldstein's much more recent estimates of 21,000-plus. The USHMM estimates up to 20,000 Jewish victims for Jasenovac alone Thhhommmasss (talk) 18:31, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

  "total of 11,900-12,900 Jews who survived with the Partisans and/or on Italian territory, or were killed in Germany". This is the total number of survivors in the NDH but Esther Gitman claims that Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac rescued approximately 1000 converted Jews. There are also those who have been rescued by local Croatian people, however this is not visible in the cited information. Or Partisans saved them or they were on Italian territory. Mikola22 (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

  My edit focuses just on what Tomashevich says, adding reliably sourced numbers, where he has no numbers, that is all. But even if we look at it another way, USHMM says that more than 30.000 NDH Jews were killed either by the Ustase in the NDH, or in Nazi camps. Since it is known that a total of 6,200 Jews were shipped to Nazi camps (some of whom survived), this leaves more than 23,800 Jews killed inside the NDH (almost certainly more than 24,000, possibly even over 25,000, when survivors of Nazi camps are added, plus fact that USHMM says more than 30,0000 NDH Jews were killed) - again this is not far from 1946 Yugoslav estimates. So Tomashevich's original point is to a great extent contradicted by these other reliable sources. I personally think both Tomashevich's original point and the answer should be excluded, or I will add this simple data from USHMM and Tomshevich's own numbers on Jews sent to Germany, to show that 1946 Yugoslav estimates are not far off. Thhhommmasss (talk) 20:15, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

  You did not understand me. Information talk about "11,900-12,900 Jews who survived with the Partisans and/or on Italian territory", but there exist and those who are saved in some other ways. However here(saved) are all included just in Partisans and/or on Italian territory. Mikola22 (talk)

  Per USHMM and others, of the 39,000 Jews in NDH, 30,000 or more were killed, leaving 9,000 or fewer survivors from all sources - escaped to Italy, joined partisans, hid, saved by all others, etc. In any case I will get rid of this text, since it is overly complicated, and add text showing that per USHMM total killed NDH Jews (more than 30,000), as well as per Tomasevich 6,200 shipped to Germany, more than 23,800 Jews were killed by Ustashe in NDH, not far from 1946 Yugoslav estimates (in fact those could be even quite exact if USHMM "more than 30,000" killed Jews, means 31,000 killed). As I said, Tomashevic here goes a long way, guessing with missing data, to make a slightly off, or even incorrect point Thhhommmasss (talk) 21:07, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 28 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 05:12, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

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The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia → The Holocaust in Croatia – It seems very unreasonable to have such a long title, similar to how the article on Germany is not called "The Federal Republic of Germany." 𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 (talk) 18:45, 28 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 00:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

No, the reason for this title is that the term Independent State of Croatia has a specific, very pertinent meaning in this exact context - it was the entity that specifically conducted the Holocaust at the time and which encompassed way different territory than any common meaning of "Croatia" did or does. If you want to just say "Croatia" in the title, that would ostensibly limit the scope of the article to what "Croatia" meant or means, which would need to effectively remove matters relevant to Bosnia and Herzegovina etc from the article, so you'd need to create a separate The Holocaust in Bosnia and Herzegovina article, and at that point we're no longer talking about a WP:MOVE but about a WP:SPLIT instead. And then you run into the fact that scholarship probably handles this issue without splitting it, because, again, it was this specific state that conducted this. It would be best to provide an analysis of relevant reliable sources to argue for this kind of a move, rather than to appeal to some sort of conciseness, because WP:CONCISE is only one of several WP:CRITERIA for article titles. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:43, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support per WP:CONCISE. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:20, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Joy. The Holocaust didn't happen in Croatia, it occurred in the Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH), which had vastly different geographical boundaries (including all of modern Bosnia and Herzegovina and part of modern Serbia), and is clearly fixed in time between 1941 and 1945. Almost all academic sources deal with the Holocaust within the NDH, not within the modern countries, and frankly it is ahistorical to do so. "Croatia" is definitely NOT the commonly recognisable name for the geopolitical entity the Holocaust occurred in (the NDH), which is what WP:CRITERIA recommends. Concision is clearly overridden in this case by the need for precision in the interests of readers of WP, again, per WP:CRITERIA. I would also strongly oppose a split for the same reasons. The move of an article that covers the entire NDH would also result in a rather WP:POVTITLE which equated modern Croatia with the Independent State of Croatia, and would inadvertently play into the hands of some Balkan POV-pushers. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:21, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Peacemaker67, as this state also covered lands outside modern Croatia. Super Ψ Dro 17:29, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  It isn't even just the modern one, back in the 1940s the term "Croatia" had a long-standing, reasonably clearly defined meaning, and it wasn't the territory of the NDH. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Peacemaker67 and Joy.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:51, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Peacemaker67. The Independent State of Croatia is a different entity from modern Croatia. JIP | Talk 18:00, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Undue weight

The article focuses heavily on Jews, which seems weird to an outsider, when other groups were murdered in much greater numbers. The focus on Jewish victims is understandable given the historical context, but burying the Serbian victims under "Other ethnicities" does not seem right. Brittletheories (talk) 12:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The Holocaust is literally about the genocide of Jews, and the genocide carried it against the Serbs in the NDH has its own article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 13:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflicted) Perhaps we should have an article on Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia? We also have Genocide of Romani people in the Independent State of Croatia which redirects to the relevant section of Romani Holocaust. DuncanHill (talk) 13:05, 27 April 2024 (UTC)