Talk:Venezuelan refugee crisis

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Third diaspora

During the last days there has been an increase in the exodus of Venezuelans in the frontier and abroad. I think studies should be included to show this new migratoy influx after the Constituency Assembly [1][2]--Jamez42 (talk) 20:41, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Rename article to Venezuelan Refugee Crisis

The name "diaspora" is totally wrong since it implies an economical emigration. Also, the word "Bolivarian" is totally wrong, since it does not mention the name of the country, the Republic of Venezuela. 74.164.41.7 (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Split proposed

With the topic of refugee crisis mounting among Venezuelan neighbouring countries, with the mass exodus of millions of its citizens - propose to split the section on Second Bolivarian diaspora into Refugees of the Crisis in Venezuela. This would be in line with similar cases like Syria, where we have Syrian diaspora historical overview article, but also Refugees of the Syrian Civil War which deals with the massive international refugee crisis; another case is historical overview of Afghan diaspora and the ongoing modern case of Afghan refugees.GreyShark (dibra) 05:21, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

@Greyshark09: Not sure of this because we already have a Venezuelan diaspora article.----ZiaLater (talk) 06:52, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

@Greyshark09:@ZiaLater: We could differentiate the pre-crisis diaspora from the refugee crisis, both clearly have distinct characteristics. However, I have a gut feeling that splitting the article as an event might be better; just like there is the Venezuela–Colombia migrant crisis article, there could be the Venezuela refugee crisis article. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:33, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the split. According to the sources in the article, over 1,5 million people have left Venezuela due to economic, political and social upheaval. The current refugee crisis in Venezuela is getting a proportion compatible with Syria (source1, source2). So, what we're seeing here is not something that is just another chapter of the "Bolivarian diaspora". It's its own thing now. And it's getting bigger. Enough for an article of it's own. Can call it venezuelan refugee crisis or Refugees of the Crisis in Venezuela. But the split would be correct, indeed. Coltsfan (talk) 18:48, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I should do a follow up on this to mention that according to the UN's last estimate this number has increased to over 2.3 million. --Jamez42 (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support split to Venezuelan refugee crisis, which seems like the natural English name. buidhe 19:42, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the split and re-naming the page to something more identifiable such as the Venezuelan Refugee Crisis. Since this is a timely and relevant issue, it seems important to address the impacts of immigration and social unrest in light of the recent empowerment of the interim president, Juan Guaido, in January 2019. I will include some points that could be included in a new page and updated with the upcoming changes in the political landscape. Bpp16 (talk) 18:01, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

According to the United Nations, over 3.3 Million Venezuelans fled their country between 2015-2019, and 5,000 more continue to do so each day. Source 1 Neighboring Columbia has opened their doors to feeling Venezuelans, who now make up about 3% of the population, however, this is exodus is creating an economic crisis greater than Columbia can handle. Source 2 On January 23, 2019, Juan Guaidó, declared himself interim president. The opposition-controlled National-Assembly Leader is working to deliver humanitarian aid, food, and medicine provided by neighboring governments. Source 3 Many citizens say that Guaido has given them hope, however President Maduro still refuses to step down, continuing the economic unrest. Source 4 Bpp16 (talk) 18:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Update

@Greyshark09: @Jamez42: @Coltsfan: @Buidhe: @Bpp16: Are we splitting the article, renaming to Venezuelan refugee crisis or leaving as is? Just asking since the GAN is underway and some issues need to be resolved.----ZiaLater (talk) 10:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment: Also, I would like to mention that the article should be kept within the 1998 to present timeline. Many of the sources focus on the timeline between 1998 and more recent dates, such as 1998-2017 or the twenty year period of 1998-2018.----ZiaLater (talk) 10:21, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Support split, I think it's the best option both to improve the article and for the readers. Both the UNHCR and the IOM have referred to the Venezuelan migrants as refugees. The data can either be choosen from the use of the term by reliable sources or the comparisons with the Syrian Civil War start, but since the GA review is ongoing it's safe to decide on the split first and later decide what content is moved and whatnot. --Jamez42 (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

@Jamez42: How would this article be split?----ZiaLater (talk) 20:20, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Support split As I mention in my comments below, I think the Second Diaspora and the 2019 exodus should be split off into another article, the post-Chávez years. Kingsif (talk) 00:37, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kingsif: I do not agree with the 2019 exodus as there is not enough material or notability and it blends together with the rest of the crisis.----ZiaLater (talk) 09:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@ZiaLater: that's kind of what I meant; have the Maduro years and the 2019 in one article. Since 2019 isn't covered in this article, I've been mentioning it separately to what is already present in the article and thus can be "split". So, split and then expand the new article :) Kingsif (talk) 13:30, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kingsif: Ah I see, not technically a split but just an article dedicated to the 2019 events. Correct?----ZiaLater (talk) 13:55, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@ZiaLater: no, I just mean the 2019 events should be included in the split article :) Kingsif (talk) 13:57, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kingsif: If you could draft a 2019 article (I do not know what it could be titled), I can help you put things together and include it in this article. I still have some update edits to make on this article, but should be able to finish it up in a few hours or later today.----ZiaLater (talk) 14:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Support split separating the initial diaspora (with Chávez) and the second diaspora (with Maduro, focusing more on 2017 onwards). The UN reported in late 2018 that "The number of arrivals in neighbouring States has steadily increased to 5,000 a day as of early 2018". UN figures from February to June show an average increase of 5,000 emigrants per day, so the perceived acceleration might just be a result of having more data. Hegsareta (talk) 01:09, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

@Hegsareta: I can agree with this, except maybe 2014/2015 onwards since this is what I am finding in sources.----ZiaLater (talk) 09:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Proposal

@Greyshark09: @Jamez42: @Coltsfan: @Buidhe: @Bpp16: @Hegsareta: I propose splitting the article between the Chavez administration (Article 1) and Maduro administration (Article 2 - this article). I do not recommend more than two articles since there were multiple emigration events or "waves" of emigration that occurred during the larger crisis.

The timeframes:

• Article 1 - 1998-2013
• Article 2 - 2013-present

The topics:

• Article 1 - Mainly upper-class and professionals emigrating, causes.
• Article 2 - The crisis; refugees, socioeconomic issues, etc.

My initial idea was to title the article about the Chávez tenure "Bolivarian diaspora" since this is when the term was initially used, but it seems like this term was carried over to the current crisis. Suggestions for the name of Article 1 is suggested.----ZiaLater (talk) 09:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

ZiaLater I'm terribly sorry I forgot to respond about which sections to split; the periods are in spot, I would only suggest that in 2013 it can be explained the rest of the years considered as a start of the migration crisis. Answering the previous question, I think that the sections that should stay under the refugee crisis title are "Crisis in Venezuela", part of "Causes", "Effects" and "Destinations", "Statistics", "Refugee life" and "Responses". At this rate, I think it would be easier to split the Chávez migration into a smaller article. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:54, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@Jamez42: I think that the sections that should stay under the refugee crisis title are "Crisis in Venezuela", part of "Causes", "Effects" and "Destinations", "Statistics", "Refugee life" and "Responses". That is the plan. The "Initial emigration" section would be summarized and its material would be put into a separate article (Article 1). I may create Article 1 with the title "Emigration during the Hugo Chávez administration" to assist with this process. Also, if certain "waves" of the refugee crisis become prominent and notable (for instance Kingsif describes a 2019 wave), we can make a separate article that leads to this main article and dedicate the section to this event.----ZiaLater (talk) 11:26, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@Greyshark09, Jamez42, Coltsfan, Buidhe, Bpp16, Hegsareta, and Kingsif: Ok, check out Emigration during the Hugo Chávez administration. Is this the split you were looking for?----ZiaLater (talk) 15:21, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't know if that's "what i'm looking for", but i guess it helps. Coltsfan (talk) 15:24, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

"Largest refugee crisis"… seems debatable and POV

The current lead sentence describes the population outflow from Venezuela as "the largest recorded refugee crisis in the Americas." It cites three sources, a newspaper editorial calling it "the largest displacement of people in Latin American history" (available here). (Other citations refer to the name "Bolivarian diaspora.) Normally we don't cite newspaper editorials for facts, and for good reason in this instance. First off, refugee and economic displacement are not always the same thing. Second, the Colombian civil war resulted in nearly 7 million internally displaced people (as reported in the same newspaper). Third, if we're including economy-driven migration as an "outflow," over 6.1 million Mexicans moved to the US between 1994 and 2007. There are stable monitoring bodies (like the UNHCR) that monitor refugee numbers, and scholars who write comparatively about things that are "the largest in Latin American history," and we should rely on them instead of newspaper editorialists. At a minimum, this needs to be moved out of the lead sentence and attributed.--Carwil (talk) 20:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I won't argue that the essence of the observation is correct, but I'll tackle some points: despite that there is economic displacement and the so called pendulum migration, Venezuelans that go another country and come back, such as Colombia, some organizations already consider the migrants as refugees and the crisis as a forced displacement due to the precarious conditions in the country. We also have to consider population: over 120 million people in Mexico and almost 50 million in Colombia compared to 30 million in Venezuela, as well as the period of time, an outflow of over ten years or a conflict of over fifty years compared with a migration that has dramatically increased in a year. I'll leave another source just in case: [3] Still, the point stands that better sources or phrasing may be needed. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:22, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

While I'm not usually one to offer drive-by comments on pages I don't edit, I think that Jamez42's response hits the nail on the head. Address and attribute the "some organizations" and the relative population size issues and you can have a solid NPOV perspective.--Carwil (talk) 02:08, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Here's a UNHCR docuemnt asking countries to provide protection to Venezuelan migrants as if they were refugees:[4] although local media reported the agency officialy recognized them as "refugees". UNHCR spokesperson William Spindler said that "The exodus of Venezuelans from the country is one of Latin America’s largest mass-population movements in history",[5] and if I recall correctly during this OAS session the International Organization for Migration described the migration as a forced displacement:[6] My recommendation would be to quote Spindler directly or an official document if found. I'll also leave one of the latests reports if needed:[7] --Jamez42 (talk) 09:39, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

notability

I read through this article as a nom at GAR, a couple queries on scope and notability arise. Which of the sources establishes the notability of this article? There is a lot of references to news items, but I failed to sift out something that gave the article title as a topic, this risks the course of the article becoming an assemblage of tangentially related items being incorporated in factual content. Without clear assertions in RS, I would be inclined to open the review to fail it. cygnis insignis 14:36, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@Cygnis insignis: What assertions would you be looking for? Usually sources name the event as a "Venezuelan refugee crisis" or "migrant crisis", but not the "Bolivarian diaspora". The name of the article was the result of earlier titles given to the crisis. so it may be difficult to find sources on a "Bolivarian diaspora". Other than that, you will find plenty of information regarding the refugee crisis, especially in Spanish sources.----ZiaLater (talk) 05:02, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

@ZiaLater: '… but not the "Bolivarian diaspora"'? This presents a problem to any reviewer in the application of verifiability, or any other policy or guidance on the creation and improvement of content. If the article on the 'event' should be titled, as you say, "Venezuelan refugee crisis or migrant crisis", well, the software inform me exist before I save this. This raises some concerns in the light of my interpretation of policy, but I will look at this again to see what I do not currently find in the article. If there is something obvious I am missing, please let me know. — cygnis insignis 17:04, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

@Cygnis insignis: What is obvious is that there is a Venezuelan refugee crisis occurring, which is what this article covers. What isn't obvious is a single term defining this article. There are a myriad of articles regarding the crisis, so if that is your concern regarding notability, I can quickly provide reliable sources at put your worries at ease. If the article's name is the issue ragarding verification of sources, etc., then a quick move cannot be ruled out. I believe discounting this article because you cannot search the term "Bolivarian diaspora" would be a mistake.----ZiaLater (talk) 20:44, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I will not be able to effectively review this article, I hope the comments were useful for potential improvements. cygnis insignis 06:46, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I also criticise the term "Bolivarian diaspora". In Latin America, no one uses that name to describe the Venezuelan emigration hordes. The events are just named «Venezuelan migration crisis». There are no sources mentioning the crisis with that denomination. It is not relevant to mention the political era of the country in question to name the event like that; if anything, it is insulting towards the Venezuelan themselves, as they don't want to have anything to do with their communist regime. --Bankster (talk) 08:02, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Rename

Should we open a discussion to talk about the current article title? --Jamez42 (talk) 14:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Jamez42: I am open to a rename. There seems to be no common title name for such events. There is Refugees of the Syrian Civil War, Afghan diaspora, Great Lakes refugee crisis, Indochina refugee crisis, Refugees of Libya, 2016 Rohingya persecution in Myanmar... It would be helpful if we could create a standard title for each of these articles. It seems that there is a common theme with "XXXX refugee crisis". Possibly "Venezuelan refugee crisis"?----ZiaLater (talk) 23:27, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

I like the suggestions and I'm inclined to support the last one. Pinging @Cygnis insignis: and @Bankster: --Jamez42 (talk) 23:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for enquiring, but I am not familiar enough with the topic. The terms carry pov weight and an identifiable exodus may be only an artifice of a political position or media conflation. The article as is does not persuade me otherwise, and I am too wary of the possibility of this topic being a confection of one sort or another. However, I'm sure that editors here realise this is hot button 'issue' as well, and are being cautious in their sourcing and relying on reliable secondary sources. cygnis insignis 14:34, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

GAN

I was considering reviewing this article at GAN, but questions of scope and name need to be settled first. buidhe 19:44, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Buidhe: What questions are those?----ZiaLater (talk) 23:20, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bolivarian diaspora/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Atsme (talk · contribs) 11:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	In the lead: "...refers to the emigration of millions of Venezuelans from their native country during the presidencies of Hugo Chávez and Nicolás Maduro due to the Bolivarian Revolution." Suggestion: ...refers to the emigration of millions of Venezuelans from their native country because of the Bolivarian Revolution during the presidencies of Hugo Chávez and Nicolás Maduro. New - "It has caused a brain drain to affect the nation,..." (2nd para, last sentence) - Shouldn't it be It has caused a brain drain that affected the nation,...? Crisis in Venezuela - "Academics and business leaders have said that emigration from Venezuela increased significantly during the final years of Chávez's presidency, and, especially, during the presidency of Nicolás Maduro. Emigration increased dramatically during the crisis and..." <-- redundant, too many commas, and we don't use terms like "now" because there is no date reference. Suggestion: ...presidency, and especially during the presidency of Nicolás Maduro. Over time, the economic crisis brought dire consequences, including increased hunger throughout Venezuela which led to dramatic increases in emigration as lower-income Venezuelans, the very people Chávez promised to aid, began fleeing the country. New - Venezuelan men initially left their wives, children and elderly relatives behind as they fled the country, with mothers and children leaving to find their families later as they grew exacerbated with the crisis. Suggestion - something along the lines of: Venezuelan men initially left their families behind and fled the country (to find work so they could send money back home. The remittances weren't enough, and many of the poorest families fled the country, including women with children in tow to join their families.) May require citing better references. See section Peru - why the redlink tisana in the image caption?
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Needs fewer direct quotes, and inline citations for quotes that are kept.
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Earwig detected a 47.6% chance of copyvio, primarily statements in NYTimes article. Must be corrected before review can continue. Second check after fixes show 46.8%. Suggestions made in discussion section. Y
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	There is a pending "split" that has not been resolved. Y
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	Article passed the review. Congratulations! Atsme Talk 📧 22:45 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

ZiaLater, the copyvio issue needs your immediate attention. Thank you. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 11:48, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: Should be fixed now. Many of the potential copyvios were quotes, but I attributed them to The New York Times in a more proper manner. Let me know if you have further concerns.----ZiaLater (talk) 13:39, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Please see WP:INTEXT - you still have to cite the sources. According to Earwig, the majority of quotes are from the same source, and that's pushing the copyvio envelope. See the Earwig results, choose a couple you feel are most relevant. Also, you can't add to or alter a quote as you did when adding "[number]" to the quote. Instead of using so many direct quotes, use your own words with an inline citation and avoid close paraphrasing. Also, there's a "split" discussion still pending; therefore, the article cannot be reviewed until after those 2 major issues have been resolved. I'm going to put the review on hold for 7 days to give you a chance to resolve the split discussion and fix the copyvio issues and inline citations. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:45, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: Thanks for the details. I will take a look at what you said and make the necessary changes.----ZiaLater (talk) 10:18, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: Ok, the unnecessary quotes in the body were removed. The two remaining quotes are seen in quote boxes. Other potential copyvios flagged include "the Central University of Venezuela" and "the Dutch Caribbean Coast Guard", both of which are proper nouns. Let me know if there are additional concerns and thanks for helping with this process.----ZiaLater (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Apparently, a move is about to take place? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:05, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: The move was necessary due to the concern about the name. The "Bolivarian diaspora" was the term mainly used in the later years of the Chávez administration. The "crisis" is the wording used for the current event since there is not a specific naming designation. In short, the "Bolivarian diaspora" was the precursor to the current "crisis". Hope this clears it up.----ZiaLater (talk) 19:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

No problem. Still a bit of clean-up editing to be done - I see the name change happened. I'll give it a few more days. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: Any recommendations now that the split occurred?----ZiaLater (talk) 12:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi, ZiaLater - will get back on it soon, maybe even today...haven't forgotten - just giving things a little time to settle down. I've also been a bit preoccupied reading all the 'scurry' caused by recent developments.^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:07, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

ZiaLater, check the New segments in the prose section. Get those 2 issues fixed & I'll wrap it up. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 04:15, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: Alright, I have made the fixes. Let me know if you have any other concerns and thank you for your help!----ZiaLater (talk) 22:09, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

ZiaLater - I used the expand ref tool - consider using it in the future - it's awesome. Good job on the article - it is very informative. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:45, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Article comments

I feel that the Second Diaspora section should be split out, especially because I think there should also be a 'Third Diaspora' part; about 1 million people left the country in the first half of 2019, which shows a rapid acceleration in the exodus. This period of emigration isn't given much coverage, which it should, and can be seen as a separate part of the diaspora—both because of the rate and because it fits the timeline of the presidential crisis. There's also some number-crossing, with the Consultores 21 saying end-of 2017 there had been 4 million Revolution emigrants, but the end-of 2018 figure being 3.5 million; later numbers seem to count from about 2010 (rather than 2000), it seems some clarity is needed for the various sources' dates, to not confuse people.

The article realistically needs a current update—most of it is accurate, but reading things like 100% in 2015 being the highest in the country's history is kind of laughable when it's 2019 and inflation has rocketed over 2 million%.

The media section is broad and anemic, it requires work (the censorship articles and the relevant parts of Venezuela media articles may be useful). Sections like the prostitution one are also on the slim side for something that has a lot of coverage—big English-language newspapers and media sites have done investigative reports into the topic. The health section should also mention the AIDs crisis. The United States section needs expansion, and at least an update since it ends on a cliffhanger about a 2015 bill. Caribbean islands section probably needs expanding with recent ~disasters~; Colombia could also do with expansion given how significant the migration is there.

Iván de la Vega is mentioned a lot, could we ditch the "Iván" after the first instance?

In 'Statistics', it was stated "Most Venezuelans attempting to leave the country are in higher-income socioeconomic groups, although lower-income groups plan to emigrate as well."—I removed this because it has been stated, in just about the same words, before in the article, and it isn't particularly relevant here.

I've made a few tweaks for some copyediting, but I wouldn't pass this as GA based on incomplete coverage.

Kingsif (talk) 00:35, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kingsif: Thanks for the feedback. I can provide an update to those sections fairly quickly. Any other concerns?----ZiaLater (talk) 05:28, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@Kingsif: Also, the "third diaspora" is debatable. There are two main events of emigration, the first under Chávez or the "Bolivarian diaspora" and the second under Maduro which is more of a "crisis". Of course there are many "waves" of emigration based on certain events, Maduro is elected = wave, presidential crisis = wave, Peru changes requirements = wave, etc. All of these waves are part of the larger crisis. I will make updates as well to make this clear.----ZiaLater (talk) 05:34, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Quick note

Thanks to whom changed the terrible name ths article used to have. "Bolivarian diaspora" had been annoying me for years. --Bageense^(disc.) 02:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

@Bageense: De nada. I am responsible for the terrible title too, but I am just trying to keep the ball rolling.----ZiaLater (talk) 09:17, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

More stats?

BBC reports that 40,000 are in T&T, with an average migrant rate out of Venezuela in 2018 being 1 person leaving every 2 seconds. BBC Kingsif (talk) 15:22, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Governments imposing visa requirements

Hi, I just added a table of countries that restricts Venezuelans entering their countries. This is very important because in the wake of the refugee crisis, several governments impose such requirements in an attempt to control the entry of Venezuelans on a timely basis. I will expand the table soon with references and others. If there is any questions, please let me know. Thanks --cyrfaw (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I think it's also to include in the section the responses as well as the consequences. Such restrictions won't stop the influx of people and may bring problems on its own, including illegal migration, human trafficking and danger to the migrants. This could be expanded later. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:18, 11 January 2020 (UTC)