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Talk:War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)/Archive 14

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Requested move 15 August 2021

Latest comment: 3 years ago169 comments123 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to War in Afghanistan (2001–2021), somewhat early. There is overwhelming consensus that the war is (practically) over, and even if it is technically not, it will almost certainly be by the end of the year. While Wikipedia should be conservative and "follow, not lead" the sources, protracting the inevitable and continuing the discussion does not seem like a constructive way forward. No such user (talk) 13:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

War in Afghanistan (2001–present) → War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) – We don't know how the future will be, but the war we knew, the one started in 2001, is over. The history of Afghanistan is not over, and there may be new wars in the future, but I think this one should be closed. Theklan (talk) 17:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC) -Theklan (talk) 17:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Support on the basis that, regardless of the situation on the ground, either title [(2001-Present) or (2001-2021)] could potentially be factually correct between now and 31 December 2021. However, only one title [(2001-Present)] could potentially be factually wrong between now and 31 December 2021. If, on December 31, the war is still ongoing, we can move it back to 2001-Present because WP:WORKINPROGRESS. Chetsford (talk) 19:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
    We shouldn't be deciding an article title based on what may or may not happen on December 31st, we should be deciding it on what is happening now, and right now the war is not over. Assigning an end date to it is simply incorrect. Zoozaz1 talk 21:28, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
As of right now, August 15, it is factual and correct to say (2001-2021) and -- regardless of what happens on the ground, whether the war is over or it's entering a new phase -- it will be factual and correct to title it that way for at least four months. The title (2001-2021) does not, nor will it, imply the war is over until 1 January 2022. Chetsford (talk) 01:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Saying 2001-2021 is technically correct, but in that case why wouldn't we have said 2001-2020 in 2020? Having a final date in the title certainly implies that is the end date, which it is not, as of the time I am writing this. Zoozaz1 talk 02:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Saying 2001-2021 is technically correct, but in that case why wouldn't we have said 2001-2020 in 2020? I have no objection to you retroactively making that change in the past. Chetsford (talk) 04:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Support, the war in Afghanistan is over, and is being reported by the news as such. Aasim (talk) 05:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Support, if the Northern Alliance political leaders somehow use the last provincial capital to turn around the Taliban takeover then another article called Afghan Civil War (2021-present) should be created if that doesn't come to pass however there is no credible opposition force to the taliban and they have unitary control over all of Afghanistan including the former Northern Alliance strongholds in the north. - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 03:14, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Oppose, We have to wait until a new peace agreement is signed, or the Panjshir government collapsed, or the UN security council agreed to do something. Mhatopzz (talk) 00:15, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Support The President of Afghanistan formally relinquished power to the Taliban and the Taliban has taken over Kabul. I see no reason to consider this war as ongoing. JackyTheChemosh (talk) 20:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment the Panjshir rebellion is still going, just wait until UNSC or a new peace agreement is signed. Mhatopzz (talk) 00:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban have just announced the end of the war. Tarek lb (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Support once all international forces leave the country. --Cerebellum (talk) 21:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose Too soon. We still have troops and civilians including government officials there, our embassy is still operating, and the Taliban has not taken control of Kabul or of the government. Right now the war is still "the present". When we make an official announcement, or when Reliable Sources agree that it is over, then we will make the move (and we won't need an RM discussion to make it). -- MelanieN (talk) 21:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
Comment. What do you mean "we"? Not everyone here is American. And, regardless, when the US "officially" concedes defeat isn't the measure of when we should change it. CompactSpacez (talk) 03:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Comment That’s begging the question, CompactSpacez. The US evacuation is an ongoing military operation, and the US President said in an address today that it will respond with devastating force if the Taliban attempts to interfere. I don’t see you presenting a substantive argument as to why the end of US occupation shouldn’t be considered as the end of the war.2600:387:0:80D:0:0:0:88 (talk) 04:04, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The war, as a physical conflict, is over and has a defined outcome - the Taliban have succeeded in taking over the country. A new government is set to be imminently established as the country officially "changes hands". All rescue troops/leftover international personnel will have left the country within no more than a week in the best scenario possible. The Afghan army themselves have indisputably succumbed to the Taliban, who have themselves also declared the war as over. Accordingly, to claim that the war is still ongoing, would seem to be factually incorrect, or at the very least incorrect by the time any such title change to the article would take place. The end of the war need not be determined by an official announcement if it is already the reality. ArbDardh (talk) 21:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)ArbDardh

Support. The war is over. As of today Sunday, 15 August 2021 the Taliban have captured the capital of Kabul. We are no longer engaging in any battles, and our diplomats have evacuated. It’s over. Not to mention both sides have agreed that it will end this year and in this month. Cj7557 (talk) 21:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Support: It is over. The only victory condition attached to the conflict was the eradication of the Taliban. That has not occurred, and Western forces have withdrawn. Taliban victory, Western Allies defeated.
Sources

  1. ^ https://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-president-ashraf-ghani-says-he-left-he-country-to-avoid-bloodshed-12382671
  2. ^ https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/afghanistan-taliban-declares-victory-us-approves-additional-troops-assist-kabul
  3. ^ https://inews.co.uk/news/analysis/taliban-victory-humiliation-joe-biden-undermines-us-reputation-1151948
  4. ^ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/15/the-observer-view-on-the-fall-of-afghanistan
  • Support: If the conflict enters a new phase, make a new page for that. But it's clear that the current phase of the conflict, where the US and a US-backed state fight the Taliban, is over.
  • Oppose While the end result is clear, evacuations are ongoing and the U.S. has informed the Taliban that it will take military action in response to any attacks on evacuees. While unlikely, this is a possibility in the near future. While I agree the war is nearly over and this page should be moved soon, I don't believe it has met that bar quite yet. Caleb 1223 (talk) 23:32, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Support Conflict will continue in Afghanistan, but the period of the American led intervention against the Taliban that began in 2001, and finally withdrew in 2021 marks the end of this phase of the conflict.--Caltraser5 (talk) 23:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The New York Times, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal all describe the government of Afghanistan to have fallen. That there are still some forces there to help with the evacuation is not a continuation of the war. The war is over. (Narkstraws (talk) 23:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC))
  • Oppose Per WP:NOTACRYSTALBALL, wait until reliable sources state it's end, fighting is still ongoing in pockets of Kabul, and no on knows what is going to happen. Des Vallee (talk) 00:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • ‘ ‘ ‘ Support ‘ ‘ ‘ It’s pretty clear that the war is over, and it ended with the Taliban taking control of the Afghan government and the President going into exile. It isn’t a great idea to allow the media to be the ones who declare things like this Dragonborn12255 (talk) 01:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC) Striking duplicate vote codingcyclone please ping/my wreckage 01:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The Taliban won, even though it was through a US retreat. The result of the war is total Taliban control of the country. It can be spun as a "strategic withdraw" (as happened with the Vietnam War for decades) but that is ideological pedantry, not factual. Someone Not Awful (talk) 01:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The Taliban won and now there's a transitional government being set up, while fighting may and will go on, they won't be the same forces as the begging of the war. I'd also support the creation of an article called "War in Afghanistan (2021–present)" to distinguish between ANA vs Taliban and whatever comes next.--Garmin21 (talk) 01:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support It's over, the Taliban won. While it's nice to think we can "take it back" and it's uncomfortable to think "What the Hell did they all die for?" when you look at the bodies, it's over. War in Afghanistan 2001-2021. The fight is over, these poor people are dead, let the ashes cool. It. Is. Over. --User:18-Till-I-Die (talk)
  • Support: this stage of the war, involving the United States and Western allies, has ended. Any more conflicts should rightly open a new article. Though to be safe we can wait a few days until the handover of powers to the Taliban is complete. NoNews! 01:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support: I think that, with the collapse of the government and fall of Kabul, this war is clearly over. Taliban has won…. District9123 (talk) 02:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support: The Taliban has declared the war over, if you consider Al Jazerra a reliable source
  • Comment It appears that USA Today and Al Jazeera have both announced the end of the war. If more sources do the same, I will strike my previous comment. Until then, I am off to bed. Scorpions13256 (talk) 02:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support: Joe Biden lost. He is hiding in his basement and CNN said he is expected to make a statement "in the next few days". He is having a mental breakdown, but wikipedia isn't Joe Bidens personal project, if he wants to admit it or not, doesn't matter. The Taliban took over the country and officially declared it over. Multiple media outlets did the same. 212.95.5.216 (talk) 02:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support: Pretty much all WP:RS say the war is over and the Taliban is victorious. Both parties claim the war is over. There will be an aftermath, of course, but that can be dealt as such in this article or a new one. Loganmac (talk) 02:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support: The country, while not at peace, certainly isn't currently in any equal war. Even if there's still lots of fighting (there will still be lots of fighting) it's most accurate to say that *this* phase of the war is concluded. NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 02:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose The discussion and !votes here seem to be almost entirely about individual views on if the war in question is "over." While that is a perfectly fine discussion to have, that is not how Wikipedia determines page titles, or really any content. When it is clear that the majority of reliable sources are saying this, we should reflect that, but until then what everyone's view here about if they think the war is now over is not meaningful for this decision.--Yaksar (let's chat) 03:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose: I'm with Yaksar. My personal beliefs aside, reliable sources haven't exactly claimed the end of the war, and, moreover, not all of the coalition troops have left yet. Think, for instance, of the Soviet–Afghan War, which we have lasting until Colonel-General Boris Gromov, the last Russian soldier, left Afghanistan, in 1989. Should we not also do the same here? — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 03:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Support Taliban declares 'war is over' as president and diplomats flee Kabul https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/talibans-rapid-advance-across-afghanistan-2021-08-10/ . Conflict may continue in Afghanistan, but the period of the American led intervention against the Taliban that began in 2001, and finally withdrew in 2021 marks the end of this phase of the conflict.Nafis Fuad Ayon (talk) 04:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now At this point, there are still some pockets of Afghanistan that remain under government control, and the Taliban have not yet established a stable government. I have no doubt that this phase of the conflict, at least, will end in the coming days, but I would suggest waiting until the situation on the ground becomes a bit more clear. --LordNimon (talk) 05:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The media reporting unanimously frames the war as over Nickelpro (talk) 06:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Hold on for a few days, then support. I think we have enough evidence and sources proclaiming that the war as we know it has ended: one of the two major combatants has virtually ceased to exist, either by surrendering (Afghan government) or withdrawing from the country (NATO forces, not counting the specific forces in the Kabul Airport which constitute a mere evac relief mission). Other conflicts resulting from the war's aftermath may ensue (an Afghan gov-led insurgency? Subsequent international interventions?), but those should be treated independently and analyzed in a case-by-case basis. This stage of the conflict is essentially over. Nonetheless, I think we should not rush the move and wait a little couple days out of prudency, but the timespan of this discussion will probably be enough for it. Impru20talk 07:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Kabul is back under Taliban control, the Afghan government has collapsed, the president has fled and after 20 years, America’s longest war is over. --Saqib (talk) 07:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Islamic Republicans have fallen, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has been restored, Article 2021 Taliban offensive already mentions Taliban victory, Taliban insurgency article also states. Taliban officials said the war is over, I agree with them, there is no one in the Afghan region to lay down resistance or sought to form an alternative government.--Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk) 07:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Wait until August 31st This war started as, and will continue to be the American-led intervention in Afghanistan until said intervention formally ceases on 31st of August. While the war may be lost, it's not over until all foreign troops have left. --Kaisersauce1 (talk) 09:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment Look at this source from BBC, it says the conflict ended after the fall of Kabul https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58223231 “ The Taliban has claimed victory in Afghanistan after taking over the capital Kabul, bringing to a swift end almost 20 years of a US-led coalition's presence in the country.” ArabMan719 (talk) 09:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment So Kaisersauce1, it seems that the Second World War didn't end on 2nd of September 1945 after all? You see, there were a couple of German soldiers in Svalbard who had no functioning radio and only surrendered on 4th of September upon meeting some Norwegian hunters. Actually, I think that even more appropriate date for the end of the war would be 18 December 1974, which is the date when the last known Japanese holdout was arrested in Indonesia. So, going by your logic, the Second World War lasted from 1939 to 1974, whole 35 years. JJohannes (talk) 10:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support 100% no different than the fall of Saigon. Its over.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 10:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support All major government/military officials including President Ghani have fled the country or switched allegiances to the Taliban. The advances by the Taliban have not been disputed and there appears to be no popular uprising against their advances, on the contrary their advances have met virtually no resistance. Thus, hostilities have essentially ended with only sporadic lawlessness and peaceful transfers in progress.ElderZamzam (talk) 11:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose (for now) - as per WP:NOTACRYSTALBALL, feel like this is jumping the gun a little bit. We need reliable sources that say it’s over, as it stands there are still numerous foreign troops in the country and Taliban have not yet gained total control. At this time the situation could rapidly change at any point, citing precedent in naming these things is redundant as each of those cases was decided with the benefit of hindsight; I think “to present” is appropriate at least for the next couple of weeks as anything else is basically speculation. John wiki: If you have a problem, don't mess with my puppy... 11:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose Until war is truly over. Georgethedragonslayer (talk) 11:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    Comment Agreed, Just wait until a peace agreement is signed Mhatopzz (talk) 00:20, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support moving the title, the war won't continue beyond 2021, strong oppose at stating the war is over in the infobox. Super Ψ Dro 11:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Relevant Info UK Defence Secretary, while not recognising them formally as the government, has stated the Taliban are "in control" of Afghanistan. Apache287 (talk) 11:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC) [1]
Sources
  • Support It doesn't matter whether or not the US considers its involvement to be over on August 31st. I'm sure they weren't expecting this when they said that. Kabul has fallen, the Afghan government has fallen, the Taliban has won and no country is currently challenging this. They're all recalling their ambassadors. Prinsgezinde (talk) 11:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The war is clearly over. I think the reluctance here has to do with Americans failing to come to grips with the fact that they have lost, yet again. CompactSpacez (talk) 12:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong support, and the "result" should be changed to "Taliban victory." No crystal balls here, it's all pretty obvious to everyone, no matter what a bunch of governments might say for propaganda effect. MaeseLeon (talk) 13:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment After BBC news said the war was over, NY Time said that the war is over too www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/15/world/taliban-afghanistan-news.amp.html ArabMan719 (talk) 13:38, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Oppose for now I agree with Yaksar and Javert2113. There are still several thousand U.S. and Nato troops at Kabul Airport, and the situation there is still developing. While the end of the war appears imminent, I support waiting several days while the situation develops before moving the article. The U.S. is set to withdraw all personnel by August 31, 2021, so maybe we should set that as time to rename the article as well. CoatGuy (talk) 14:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: The former combatant forces left there are, well, former combatants. They are losers shipping out. There is no grand plan to sweep out of Kabul airport and retake Afghanistan. It is over. Saying it is still ongoing beyond the fifteenth of August is just plain deliberate falsehood at this point.
  • Comment You misunderstand me; I'm not suggesting that the U.S. will rally at the airport and continue the war past August 31. What I mean is that the ongoing evacuation at Kabul airport is a military operation with the potential for short-term continued hostilities. A Washington Post article published in the past hour describes violence at the airport as U.S. troops try to control the crowds. U.S. troops have reportedly shot and killed armed men at the airport today: August 16, 2021. The conflict will soon be over, but as others have said, Wikipedia is not in the business of predicting the future, so I don't think we should be overly hasty in closing this chapter of history while the last few sentences are being written. CoatGuy (talk) 16:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment We might also look to the article on World War II as an example; Japan announced it's intention to surrender on August 15, 1945, and there were widespread V-J Day celebrations on that day in Allied countries, reflecting popular sentiment that the war was over. However, Wikipedia's article on WW2 places the end of the conflict on September 2, 1945, when Japan formally surrendered. While popular sentiment today might hold that the war in Afghanistan is over, that doesn't reflect the reality yet. We should wait for a more formal end to the conflict (i.e. the withdrawal of all U.S.-led forces from the country) to make the proposed change. CoatGuy (talk) 14:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The war has de-facto ended. If the US was to re-intervene that would be a different war. 212.74.201.233 (talk) 14:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The Taliban has already declared victory, the president of Afghanistan fled the country and made a statement (which can be interpreted as a surrender) and the Resolute Support Mission has already been disbanded. The president of US, Joe Biden stated that the official conclusion to the war in Afghanistan will be on August 31, 2021. So in my opinion the year could be stated in the title. BnC78 (talk) 15:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC) — Bn678 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Oppose: I think we should wait until the American troops in Kabul are gone or stood down, and the dust has settled. I'm thinking a timeframe of maybe a week or so. It will have to be moved at some point soon, however. Lazdona (talk) 15:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Weak support While I support this in theory, I think we should wait and see until an official announcement from the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and until the Taliban recaptures the country. The war has effectively ended though. Dabaqabad (talk) 15:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Dabqqabad, The Taliban have already announced that the war is over Mausebru the Peruvian (talk, contibs) 15:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
I think we have enough Support votes for the change to be made.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 17:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
@Mausebru: If that's the case then I'll change my vote to Strong Support. Dabaqabad (talk) 18:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support: Both sides declared the war was over. It's pretty much done and finished by now. Any future conflicts in Afghanistan will probably be separate wars. Justrz (talk) 12:34, 16 August 2021 (EST)
  • Oppose: Per WP:NOTACRYSTALBALL. There has been no formal peace treaty, ceasefire, or surrender by the Afghan government or the US. (There may never be.) But we don't know what the future holds. It obviously would have been premature to declare the war over the day after the US took Kabul in 2001. A resistance to Taliban rule may yet emerge that further prolongs the war, or an event may trigger active fighting again between the US and Taliban. If not, then after sufficient time and once credible sources declare the war has ended, we can update the title and retroactively set the end date as 15 or 16 Aug. Mgruhn (talk) 17:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Support Both the American government and the Taliban outright stated that the war has come to an end. The American troops that were deployed recently were only meant to escort embassy staff and Americans to safety, and these evacuations were completed yesterday. As an American, I hate to see my country waste so much time, money, and human lives, but my country has washed its hands over this loss and I'm ready to have Wikipedia call the results and finally move on from this endless waltz.--Nexenhero91 (talk) 17:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Support-there is no longer any organized opposition against taliban rule, the national army no longer exists as a military force capable of opposing the taliban Grimaldilines (talk) 17:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Very Strongly Support – Unfortunately, the war is over. The Taliban has won. The Afghanistan Government collapsed and surrendered. If that isn't a defeat decisive enough to mark the end of a war, then I don't know what is. The Fall of Kabul (2021) was basically the Fall of Saigon all over again (even worse, IMO). The Fall of Kabul marks the end of the 20-year-long War in Afghanistan. Any further conflicts or insurgencies would constitute a new conflict, in the same way that the Iraqi Civil War (2013–2017) and the Second Libyan Civil War constituted their own wars after the outbreak and conclusion of a preceding conflict. To my fellow American editors who are voting "Oppose" out of some belief that the war isn't over yet: I hate to say this, but get over it. We lost. Again. It's over. Even the majority of reliable sources are reporting on the Fall of Afghanistan, and declaring the Taliban in control of the country. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 18:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Weaker-than-average support - while I do have some concerns about this being too soon, this war is essentially over. I am, however, opposed to declaring this war as having ended until reputable sources explicity say this. Bneu2013 (talk) 18:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose until we have a consensus of sources for an end-date. Too early to move the article if the infobox still says 2001-present, and it doesn't look like we have a date that the war ended on. BananaCarrot152 (talk) 19:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
There have been attempts to change it. I've been undoing them until there's a consensus on the main article before the infobox is altered to avoid mismatch. Apache287 (talk) 20:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support but flexible Sorry, unfortunately all major sources are saying it's over and no point being in denial now. It's reported constantly that both sides have declared it's over and so it is obviously over. When one side declares victory and the other side admits defeat, the war is over. If for some unusually low chance the war isn't over, we can then retract it but the Wikipedia article needs to note the current situation and not delay it given the importance of the article. It's very unlikely there will be a change and it may take many years if never for Taliban and the former government reps to ever sign an official peace treaty doc. The Taliban ultimately doesn't need to agree to anything with them and the president has fled and publicly acknowledged defeat. That is sufficiently all that is required to mark the end of the war as far as everything is concerned.MangoTareeface9 (talk) 19:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support I'm not going to cite any particular editor but I agree with other supporters of the move. This thing is over. At some point the denial and pedantry become shamelesness. The end date should be the fall of Kabul as an effective date for all parties involved. --Killuminator (talk) 20:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support. The events of the past few days are a textbook example of how wars end. Both sides agree that it's over. What more do you need? Later edit: The future tense ("We will end...") of this Biden 16 August sub-tweet does give me pause that the article title shouldn't be changed right away though, I'll admit: https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1427429837053079553?s=20 Moncrief (talk) 20:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: this RM has been open for a day and already has >50 users chiming in. It is pretty clear that this discussion will turn into a no-consensus close. This is why I am proposing that this discussion is closed early per WP:SNOW, and reopened at a later time, due to the fact that the title of this page is affected by a very current topic. Wikipedia can wait. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 20:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now- too soon; open to a split into War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) and Afghanistan conflict (2021–present) once it becomes clear how much internal resistance remains. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 20:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
We arent creating another Afghanistan conflict Article. We still have the 1978-present one that is open.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 21:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose for now, although almost certainly support in the long run There's still clearly activity taking place here, and regardless the War isn't TECHNICAL over until the proverbial fat lady things. It is scheduled to be over very soon though so this is just a matter of timing rather than denying that the Taliban are actually victorious, because that would be foolish since they clearly are. StrexcorpEmployee (talk) 21:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose - The war is coming to a close, yes, but it has not officially ended. We should wait until some sort of announcement has been made that the war is over, but there has not been one yet, so I oppose. Once August 31st comes, then I'll be open to it being changed, but for now, it should remain (2001-present). Presidentofyes12 (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The war is over, the state fell, with the President exiled. As per user CompactSpacez, the reluctance here has to do with Americans failing to come to grips with the reality that the state which their country supported did indeed fall and the war is over. Yeungkahchun (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support the war is essentially over, kabul and all other provincial capitals has fallen to the Taliban and as such i believe we can change the name to indicate it ended this year TheHaloVeteran2 (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Talibans claims its over, The US Government claims its over, most major WP:RS agrees its over, the war lasted from October 7, 2001 to August 15, 2021. If anything happens after that it will be seperate incident, perhaps a separate war. but this war ended like the Vietnam War (fall of Kabul has drawn comparison to fall of Saigon the end of that war), Iraq War and all. Unless clear WP:RS (not just one but many) states that this specific war is still ongoing, we are no one to say it is. As of now all parties involved in the war (Talibans, US Government, etc) and all major WP:RS, including major news channels, CNN, AlJajera, BBC, etc, etc, etc, agreess the war ended, so it should be listed as ended unless there are sufficient WP:RS saying its still ongoing. Currently saying its ongoing is a clear WP:NOR violation as parties involved in the conflict and most WP:RS have declared it over. Dilbaggg (talk) 00:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment btw I hate the outcome, I hate that terrorists like Talibans took over, maybe in future they will be gone, but as of now we should cite history the way it is and the war is indeed over. Dilbaggg (talk) 00:07, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Wait Panjshir hasn’t fallen yet and there seems to be news of former Northern Alliance warlords gathering there. Let’s wait for Taliban to actually either take it or for the resistance to fizzle out first - maybe in the next 2 weeks we’ll see how it works out. At this point Taliban still doesn’t control the Kabul airport and that one town. Juxlos (talk) 00:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Comment: If the NA wants to start a new war, that is on them, and would be the subject of a new article as a new conflict. This conflict, between the Western Powers and the Taliban is over. Same as the stuff about the evacuation. That is for a section on the aftermath of the Taliban victory, or if it gets complicated enough then it can be given its own article. I imagine that the aftermath of this Taliban victory will need its own article. This war, though, is over.
  • Comment Juxlos the American Civil War ended in May 9, 1865 when it was declared formally over, there was still fighting as the last Confederate troops surrendered in June 23, even after that there were some insurgency for a while, but that doesn't state the fact the war ended on May 9, the war ends after formal declaration, as was the case here after the fall of Kabul in August 15, 2021. After every war some minor insurgency always remains, but that doesn't change the end of the war. The troops at the air port are just there to help evacuate people wanting to escape the hell that Afghanistan has become now with the Taliban regime, they are not there to fight. Eitherways as of now all parties involved and all major WP:RS declared the war over. That should be sufficient enough. Dilbaggg (talk) 00:22, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Comment: That’s really interesting and I can’t wait to read your peer reviewed doctoral dissertation about the end of the war, but until you finish writing and publishing it, this is just your unsubstantiated opinion on what very recent events in an ongoing situation mean. Saying that the troops evacuating and securing the airport aren’t part of the war is just an opinion without any reliable sources to back it up, which doesn’t seem like a good basis to make decisions about editing an encyclopedia...
  • Support as per Dilbaggg. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 00:54, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose A lot of people are obviously feeling very emotional about current events, but just because you write “It. Is. Over.” here doesn’t mean that there aren’t still several thousand US and British soldiers in Afghanistan. The war will be over when the occupation forces leave, per US President Biden’s address on August 16. US leadership clearly sees this as a war in the process of ending, so saying “it’s. over.” is an oversimplification of a complicated situation and you’re just passing off speculations (however accurate they might be) as fact. It’s funny that so many people are saying “both sides have declared the end” without providing any sources for the US saying the war is actually over RIGHT NOW, and sources such as AP and NYT are saying that the war is “ending,” not that it has “ended”... If you’re feeling emotional about this, write an angry Facebook post or go stand on a street corner wearing a sandwich board, but leave the presentation of facts to more level headed people. Wikipedia is not an appropriate place for you to seek personal closure about the war’s end by asserting your emotions on a encyclopedic article.
    They are literally only there now to evacuate people from the country. Thats it. The coalition backed government has fallen and most troops are out of the country.
    From Wikipedia's perspective, the war is "over" when reliable sources claim the war is "over". Nothing more, nothing less. That condition has been met, so your argument is meritless. CompactSpacez (talk) 04:14, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    Exactly, and there isn’t consensus among reliable sources (eg US President, AP, NYT) that the war is “over.” It’s “ending” or “will end.” You don’t get to pick and choose which sources we’ll use just to suit your worldview, CompactSpacez. Your comment is meritless. And please read the entire post next time before responding.2600:387:0:80D:0:0:0:88 (talk) 04:24, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support per reliable sources: [1][2]. Of course, the situation on the ground could change at any given moment, but RS are generally accepting that the war has concluded. IronManCap (talk) 01:58, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support since reliable sources say it's over. If the count shows no consensus, just wait a few days (or hours even) for it to become obvious. TFD (talk) 02:07, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment should the move go through, a whole host of categories under Category:War in Afghanistan (2001–present) will need to be renamed per WP:C2D, as will many articles in this cat. IronManCap (talk) 02:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support. This phase of the War in Afghanistan is finished. RSes agree that the war is over. I can see the argument that an insurgency continuing (or lack of surrender or whatever) means that the "war" might not actually be over. That's more or less WP:CRYSTALBALLing on the part of editors that seem to disagree with reliable sources and want to impose their own WP:OR views on the article. If the war ends up not actually ending though as some editors have predicted, it may be appropriate to create a new article on the "War in Afghanistan (2021-present)". If by some bizarre miracle, the sole Afghan government controlled province manages to take back Afghanistan and defeat the Taliban, then we might have to move the article back. But these are issues we can deal with when we get to those points, and what matters is what reliable sources are saying now, not what they might say in the future. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 02:52, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose until all foreign troops leave Afghanistan. While true that the Taliban have recaptured the country, there are still foreign forces in Afghanistan. The war does not officially end until August 31st. It is wrong to imply that the war ended prematurely. This is a very tense situation that is still under the scope of a military operation. There could also be developments that change the war unexpectedly (for example mass civil unrest or revolution against the Taliban even if extremely unlikely). It should only be changed when it is declared to be officially over by the US/NATO. Evercool1 (talk) 05:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment That’s an arbitrary date and cant be used when making a rational statement. European theatre of World War II ended on May 9 even though the Prague offensive was happening. Vietnam War ended April 30, 1975 even though the Mayaguez incident happened in May 1975. The war is over the evacuation process is not part of a war, nor has it ever been part of any war.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 10:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support. Reliable sources state the Taliban have won and that the war is over[1][2][3][4]. From a Wikipedia standpoint, this is all that matters (and not the original research or geopolitical opinions of community members). Those opposing have not, as far as I can tell, provided reliable sources to support their position. Vitomontreal (talk) 13:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Sources

  1. ^ Shams, Shamil; Saifullah, Masood (16 August 2021). "Afghans fear return to the past after Taliban victory". Deutsche Welle. Retrieved 17 August 2021.
  2. ^ Gall, Carlotta; Khapalwak, Ruhullah (15 August 2021). "Afghanistan News: 20-Year U.S. War Ending as It Began, With Taliban Ruling Afghanistan". The New York Times. Retrieved 17 August 2021.
  3. ^ Krauss, Joseph (16 August 2021). "Taliban take over Afghanistan: What we know and what's next". Associated Press. Retrieved 17 August 2021.
  4. ^ Borger, Julian (15 August 2021). "Taliban's Abdul Ghani Baradar is undisputed victor of a 20-year war". The Guardian. Retrieved 17 August 2021.
  • Support. Yet another reliable source stating the war is over is this tweet by the AP. Dylanvt (talk) 14:35, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong support This article is not about the perennial Afghan infighting and multiple successive wars. It is about the specific War initiated in 2001 when the United States - having suffered the 9/11 attacks - invaded Afghanistan (with the support of an international coaltion of allies) with the goal of liberating the contry from the Taleban's Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan regime, and of preventing the use of Afghanistan as a base for terrorist organizations. That war that began in 2001 is now over. Combat operations have ceased. That war ended with the defeat of the US-led coalition on August 15, 2021 when the US-backed Islamic Republic of Afghanistan fell as a consequence of America's decision to completely withdraw its military forces from Afghanistan even without the conditions set out in the February 2020 Doha Peace Agreement being met, and of the Taleban's military success in its 2021 offensive to retake control of the country. As a result of that US decision, first to end combat operations and then to withdraw its military from Afghanistan, the war is over. Unfortunately, the taleban prevailed in that not only the US was unsuccessful in eliminating them, but also the taleban succeeded in regaining control of the contry and reestablishing its Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan rule. The fact that one does not like that result does not change the fact that, by America's decision to stop fighting, the war is over. The Northern Alliance had been fighting the Taleban Emriate before 2001 and they may continue a localized insurgency against the Taleban in one specific province from now on. That pre-existing internal struggle was not material to the start-date of the "War in Afghanistan", an international military conflict, in 2001 and its possible continuation now as a small scale internal struggle is also not material to the termination of the "War in Afghanistan", as an international military conflict, in 2021. Antonio Basto (talk) 16:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

•Support. The war is mostly over, the taliban controls 99% of the Afghan territory except for the Panjshir valley. It is expected that the conflict now will be a small scale insurgency between Amrullah Saleh's forces and the Taliban Araukan (talk) 16:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment Given that we are now days after the signifying event in question (namely the Fall of Kabul) and have increasing numbers of reliable sources that are declaring the US-led War to be over (which this article pertains to) and that there is an absence of reliable sources from those opposed to moving the article to show the world considers the war ongoing and are instead using WP:Crystal claims that fighting could start again surely it is time to move the article? Apache287 (talk) 16:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Agree. Many of the early Opposes said they wanted to wait for RS. Several reliable sources have now been provided. Since the reliability of the sources have not been challenged, I think there is a strong argument for a consensus to move if those early Opposes are now Supports. Vitomontreal (talk) 17:22, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment I've created Conflict between the Taliban and the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2021-Present). This is not a resolution to the current question as the aformentioned conflict has not yet metastasized into a war per se and so far is merely a one-way war of words. However, should we have RS that confirm military operations here, I'd suggest this article be pinned with a 2021 end date and we move over there. Chetsford (talk) 17:14, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose (for now). It doesn't matter who we think won or how well-reasoned our arguments are. Wikipedia does not do WP:Original Research. Wikipedia is not a WP:Crystal Ball. Ask again in three weeks, once there's better RS support and the US withdrawal is formally over, and we'll probably be able to WP:Snowball this. Intralexical (talk) 17:30, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    • As demonstrated, almost all reliable sources agree the war has now concluded, whilst a single RS claiming the war has not yet concluded has yet to be presented. I'm not sure where the OR claim originates from, therefore. IronManCap (talk) 18:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
      • I would conter that the US Forces are now performing non combatent duties only, related to their withdrawal. Accordingly, combat operations having ended, the war is over. The fact that the Forces still neeed to complete their evacuation does not change the fact that the war is over and all combat operations were terminated. Antonio Basto (talk) 19:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
      • I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep if the title were changed now (obviously the conclusion is clear), but to play devil's advocate, see the subtweet here from Biden's account from yesterday, 16 August: https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1427429837053079553?s=20 -- "...And once we have completed this mission, we will conclude our military withdrawal. We will end America’s longest war." (Emphasis mine.) It seems somewhat odd to change the title when the US president is still using the future tense, no matter what the RS say. I would say wait a week or so, which is probably what will happen anyway as I can't imagine any admin is in a rush to close this !vote. The !votes on changing the title of the article about January 6th took most of the summer. Moncrief (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support we rarely get such participation for Requested Page Moves these days. The political situation is clear: the war is ending in 2021. There are debates above that suggest it's CRYSTAL to move the article while it still is 2021. It is not. The Ghani government is gone; therefore the war has ended. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:30, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The vast majority of media outlets are reporting that the war has ended. The Taliban now has full control of Afghanistan and the United States has no plans to return to the country. There may be some small armed resistance, but as far as the war goes, its over.BlueShirtz (talk) 21:52, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Per the other users. The occupying countries have practically fully withdrawn, the talibans control not only the government but also every province of the country and the "president" has peacefully fled to his home nation of Tajikistan. 2001:1970:564B:4700:4127:F83C:F478:DD0F (talk) 22:31, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support WP:Crystal Ball doesn't say it has to be 100% certain, only if it isn't it needs WP:RS that is sufficient. The Resolute Support Mission was disbanded on 12 July. The Afghan Armed Forces collapsed on 15 August. The Operation Freedom's Sentinel is set to end on 31 August. Also Biden stated that "We will end America's longest war.". Future tense doesn't necessarily mean WP:Crystal Ball (for example 2024 U.S. presidential election and 2028 Summer Olympics). Biden stated that the war will end after the withdrawal mission and he also stated that the withdrawal will end on 31 August. It isn't speculation or original research, it is a drawn conclusion. BnC78 (talk) 23:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support the Afghanistan conflict (1978–present) is not over: the Panjshir resistance still exists and they actually have a President (Amrullah Saleh). But this phase of the war is definitely over: we should change the title and move the following events to the page Conflict between the Taliban and the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2021).-Karma1998 (talk) 23:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The war in Afghanistan, according to almost all sources, recently concluded with the withdrawal of United States troops from Afghanistan and the Taliban conquest of the country. Several reliable sources have been provided by previous commenters. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 06:34, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose (for now) I urge restraint, since there currently still are "Western" boots on the ground (in Kabul), the fighting has not subsided (e.g. Panjshir, other regions), and the waves are full of rumours, half-truths and disinformation. I simply see no rush, and, as one user here said: "Wikipedia is not a news ticker". Ivario (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Comment. To suggest that the War is “ongoing”, as the article currently states, is clearly a mistake at this point in my opinion. The fact that there are still “Western boots on the ground” is also clearly immaterial, since those troops are only carrying out non combat duties relating to the evacuation. World War II ended on September 2nd, 1945 when Japan surrendered. It did not end when the last American Forces withdrew from Japan. Similarly, WWII in Europe ended when combat ceased upon the surrender of Germany on May 8-9, 1945, not when the last Allied troops left. To suggest that a War is ongoing because a withdrawal is still taking place, is therefore clearly wrong, especially when there is an Agreement between the belligerants (in this case, the Doha Agreement of Feburary 2020, supplemented by contacts on the ground between US forces in the Hamid Karzai International Airport and Taleban forces outside the Airport) governing the US withdrawal. The fact that a Northern Alliance insurgency has regrouped in Panjshir is also irrelevant, since this article is not about the broader Afghanistan conflict (1978-present), but is instead about the War initiated in 2001 when America invaded Afghanistan with the goal of rooting out the Taleban Emirate. That War is now over, the US has been defeated, and the Taleban Emirate rule has been restored. One cannot gloss over the simple facts. Antonio Basto (talk) 13:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Comment Also there might be "Western" boots on the ground as long as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is the government. Currently it is because of U.S. Forces Afghanistan Forward mission. BnC78 (talk) 13:57, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support The war in Afghanistan is effectively over. The Western allied forces have withdrawn, and the Taliban have seized control of the country.(PaulThomas92 (talk) 13:51, 18 August 2021 (UTC))
  • Support While war in Afghanistan is sadly far from over this phase is. Maxime12346 (talk) 23:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now... As of right now, we hadn't got news from any of the belligerents in the War in Afghanistan (like the US, the Islamic Republic of the Afghanistan government, or the Taliban) saying that the war is declared "over". Until then, it should not come to a close, at least not yet... because there are still some resistance from anti-Taliban groups ongoing. Plus some of the foreign troops still remain, mainly for protecting their embassies or any of their nationals evacuating from Afghanistan, and there are still pockets of Afghanistan not taken yet (unless stated otherwise) ROBLOXGamingDavid (talk) 15:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:NPOV, WP:CRYSTAL. It will require more details and confirmation by WP:RS than mere claim of power grab by one side. AnM2002 (talk) 17:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
  • But not anymore. Mainstream  media sources are clear now that the war is ongoing.

[3][4] Making conclusions by depending on cherrypicked and limited information is nothing but POV pushing. AnM2002 (talk) 17:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Putting aside the mild personal attack in the section below, the BBC source does not mention that the war is not over, whilst the Times makes it clear this is from a certain group of people's perspective (i.e. WP:UNDUEWEIGHT). This is not cherrypicked and limited information but in fact the consensus among RS. IronManCap (talk) 17:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Strongly Support It is physically and technically over, and it is a Taliban Victory and that should be listed in the infobox as the outcome. Colliric (talk) 01:50, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Its over, its time for Americans to put down the Cool-aid and accept the hard reality.

  • Strong Support The war is over, the US is leaving in peace as the sole term of surrender. I declare the war is over.
  • Oppose - Clearly foreign forces are still deployed in Kabul carrying out the evacuation, so this war is still ongoing. Fighting may well continue in Afghanistan even after the withdrawal is complete given the news of anti-Taliban forces regrouping in the Panjshir valley and nationwide demonstrations against the Taliban. FOARP (talk) 12:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
evacuations have nothing to do with a war.War is about fighting not running away --2601:3C5:8200:97E0:BC85:B847:A261:82C5 (talk) 12:50, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Just off the top of my head:
All treated as a part of the conflict they were linked to, because that's the way reliable sources treat them. It's too soon to say whether history will see the withdrawal as somehow not part of the war but it seems very, very unlikely that it will be considered seperate. FOARP (talk) 13:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request move 19 August 2021

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Boldly closing this per WP:SNOW. BnC78, it is disruptive to open a concurrent move proposal even before the previous ended. Now that I closed it and moved the page, I can say with certain confidence that your proposal is not going to succeed, and having a doomed proposal tag on probably the most-visited article of this month is disruptive. No such user (talk) 13:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

War in Afghanistan (2001–present) → The U.S. War in Afghanistan (2001–present) - This war started with the United States invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 so it should end with the Withdrawal of United States troops from Afghanistan (2020–2021). It is part of the War on terror military operation which was launched by the United States government.
I propose this title change so it is more clear what this article is or should be about.

Currently the Panjshir conflict/Panjshir resistance is stated to be part of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) by most wikipedia articles. But in my opinion it should not be part of the War on terror and therefore it could not be part of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present).
Although there are articles[1][2] which call this war "War in Afghanistan", most of the articles only state that there is a war in Afghanistan but not say it as a name for the war.
Moreover, there are articles[3][4][5] which call it the "U.S. War in Afghanistan" and there are articles that state that this war is a U.S. war in Afghanistan..

Sources

BnC78 (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Second Resistance

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Should Second Resistance be in this article? Or is this part of the wider Afghanistan_conflict_(1978–present)?Manabimasu (talk) 14:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

It should probably be in an "Aftermath" or "Legacy" section. Intralexical (talk) 16:16, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Title of article should not be platform for pro U.S. propaganda

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion
  • The war ended on 15 August 2021 with DECISIVE Taliban victory. This is accurate statement reflecting unbiased description of what happened, not propaganda. The Afghan army completely and totally collapsed, the President fled the country, his government dissolved on all levels, Taliban controls entire country. This is DECISIVE Taliban victory. Overwhelming media reporting on this event in majority of mainstream media in the world in all languages state that this is a Taliban victory and that the war is over.27.104.210.6 (talk) 06:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
A discussion regarding the title of the article is ongoing, above. You're welcome to contribute to it. However, please note that we avoid phrases like "decisive" in the infobox. — Czello 07:08, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
You can't win a war "decisively". Prinsgezinde (talk) 14:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
True, and I don't disagree with you, but a debellatio like what the Afghan republic just suffered, along with the capture of near all northern alliance is as close as you get to a total victory.Freepsbane (talk) 17:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2021

Latest comment: 3 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

The war in Afghanistan has ended, I suggested changing the title to "War in Afghanista (2001–2021)", but I can't find any reliable sources that provides information about a supposed Taliban victory, but according to president Joe Biden, U.S reached all its objectives against Al-Qaeda and the perpetrators of 9/11 in the war, so I suggest changing "Taliban victory" to "U.S Coalition victory", as in this article. XMk8000 (talk) 21:26, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

  Not done: See above, sources have been provided supporting a "Taliban victory", this should not be changed without clear consensus. About the title, see the requested move above. IronManCap (talk) 21:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Wait, did we already close the debate? I don't think so. I do agree that Taliban victory should be added, but also Al Qaeda defeat as XMk8000 says and another unnamed user commented (idk if it's the same guy, probably not, it was unsigned). Sources claiming that AL Qaeda has been dismantled in Afghanistan are multiple and span all these years. A couple of examples found by just googling (but i'm sure we can find many more): https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/ten-years-later-islamist-terrorism-isnt-the-threat-it-used-to-be/2021/04/29/deb88256-a91c-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html AND https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/president-obamas-secret-100-al-qaeda-now-afghanistan/story?id=9227861. Also, there's Biden speech in which he admitted failure in counter-insurgency against the Taliban but success in counter-terrorism against Al Qaeda. And that was an objective claim, not a biased one. In any case, the infobox should definetely mention Al Qaeda, it would be absurd otherwise. It was still an important part and reason of the war. Barjimoa (talk) 06:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Yes I remember and the main problem with claiming any victory over anything is that you could not provide a single current source to make those claims, let alone objective ones. That said, as others have posted, there is a sea of sources describing this as a Taliban victory and US defeat/failure. It would be bizzare to count an extinguished candle of a couple of puff pieces from ten years ago, while ignoring a roaring bonfire of sources describing it as a Taliban victory and American defeat/failure.Freepsbane (talk) 16:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
A)The first source is from 2021. Biden's speech and Bojo's speech are from this week. There are many other sources as well claiming that Al Qaeda in Afghanistan lost: camps destroyed, network destroyed, leader killed, their numbers reduced to 100 dispersed members. There are dozens of articles about this.
B)You keep mentioning that I don't want to add that the Taliban won: not true, i obviously agree with that. What i am saying is that this concurs with the fact that Al Qaeda in Afghanistan lost. The two things are not in contrast. It's obvious that there were two objectives in the war: take down Al Qaeda and remove the Taliban from power. All US presidents said this, from Bush to Bide, since the war started. First mission was a success, the second one a failure. This page is about the whole war, not about the Taliban insurgency alone. Barjimoa (talk) 07:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I notice you gave us more talk but no current sources, let alone nonopeds. No it’s more of trying to find face save for the results and so then willing to use any tenuous claim keep that long extinguished candle of victory lit. Like I said, we don’t trust politicians on outcomes otherwise let’s ask Vlad if he thought they beat Afghanistan(and Serbian politicians galore will say they won their war). We do use reliable sources, and no source has as all other editors note claimed victory. You could prove us wrong but given that your pre war loss sources were either an oped by a war architect, or a puff piece from a now defeated belligerent, I doubt you’ll find many. As I said, you want to make extraordinary claims, provide extraordinary evidence, not original research: we aren’t sources.Freepsbane (talk) 15:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

  • As noted by many international editors and some cynical American ones this foot dragging and claiming victory with out a single contemporary source that doesn’t belong to a politician from the vanquished makes it seem like we let nationalism cloud our judgment. That we are so desperate to avoid recording a comprehensive defeat for the motherland that we ignore the sea of sources (many who have been posted here) for 1 or 2 deprecated claims of victory made years ago. That we bend rules and exempt countries we like from the norms of notating history. I recommend as a sign of good faith you extend the same benefits to stranger countries, edit Soviet–Afghan War like you would want the current one edited. If you prove this isn’t just favoritism I and others who are worrying about nationalism interfering will be mollified.Freepsbane (talk) 15:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

“ This page is about the whole war, not about the Taliban insurgency alone” indeed, the entire war just ended with the Taliban’s victorious conquest of Kabul. To lop off the climax of the war because you don’t like it is to abandon our fact recording mission for ultra-nationalism.Freepsbane (talk) 15:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

As an update, it seems that many Russians, including leaders are now declaring their war in Afghanistan a victory.[5] IF politician statements are reliable sources then I recommend you show your motivations are not merely American ultra-nationalism by editing Soviet–Afghan War to Soviet Victory. Surely you can't evade it by claiming they're not credible, when they established a lasting client government and never lost a single major city in their tenure, wheras the leaders of the defeated belligerents in this war were insisting the Taliban could never take Kabul mere weeks before they did. As I said, apply your standards universaly and fairly, it will prove you care about fact recording more than nationalism and favoritism. Freepsbane (talk) 18:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Rename to Afghan Civil War (2001-2021)?

Latest comment: 3 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Since the war is declared over on both sides, and it meets the qualifications for being called a civil war on almost all fronts. Justrz (talk) 14:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose - **(For Now)**
While I agree things will likely end sooner or later as a loss for NATO. US President said in an address that they will respond with devastating force
if the Taliban attempts to interfere with remaining operations.
And that troops will continue to be added possibly even beyond August/Sept in new news reports
Relevant Sources:
https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1427429837053079553?s=20
https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1428240577473220615?s=20
I feel like this is the same as changing end date to 2021 early because of the Battle of Kabul was also premature when things haven't ended yet and should have a move review due to issues with WP:Original Research WP:Reliable Sources & WP:Snowball Clause
Can't we just wait and see what's relevant after August 31st? People seem to be rushing to mark this phase of current events as closed. Daseiin (talk) 15:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Comment: An additional source from current news reports
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/18/biden-us-troops-afghanistan-31-august-deadline Daseiin (talk) 15:26, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Question:
People have had this debate before and the page has had to have dates changed following that, and now for the 15th during a situation that keeps developing
Surely the international recognition of the Government and it's President (Ghani) and his refusal to cede him being President of Afghanistan nor having signed any UN Peace treaty/UN Security Council Decision would be cause to wait until US & NATO have left after August 31st or whenever considering the instability in Kabul still and the airport being under control still? (There has been reports of fighting and shots aswell)
There's also more troops going in now aswell which has caused the August 31st retreat to be in doubt (Bidens own words on video and his Social Media Posts)
I'm not saying this is likely to end in a coalition victory for remaining people who are being joined by more troops with the rebels & rally protesters~ resisting and managing to gain the upper-hand back but I will say it's too early to declare the situation closed until all parties have pulled out which could be soon or could be a while away after 31st
Relevant Sources:
nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/afghan-protests-spread-to-kabul-in-early-challenge-to-taliban (For recognition not being given)
today.ng/news/world/protests-afghan-taliban-spread-early-signs-resistance-384143 (Caretaker President siding with Opposition & Resistance)
msn.com/en-us/news/world/whats-next-for-afghanistan-peace-talks-in-qatar-resistance-in-the-valley/ar-AANsV6l (A coalition of anti-Taliban resistance forces in the last region of Afghanistan not under Taliban control.) Daseiin (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Disagree with the proposed rename. We will need a new article, with a new name, describing whatever turns out to be the situation after the dust settles here. But what has been going on from 2001 to 2021 is not accurately described as a civil war; it is accurately described as "war in Afghanistan". It was launched by what amounted to a foreign invasion by the U.S. and allies, and when their presence ends, this conflict ends. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

@MelanieN So do you think that anything new that happens in the near future should require the dates and page to be changed after as opposed to another differently tagged page for after the 16th August 2021? Daseiin (talk) 18:42, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

pictures

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

why the main picture depicts only one side? Why are Taliban fighters not displayed? All pictures here only show western forces... --OspreyPL 12:27, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

That's probably due to the fact the Taliban don't operate a copyright-free service providing images of their forces for Western media to use Apache287 (talk) 15:35, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Taliban Statement after Victory

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Here is the translated statement of the Taliban that they made live on AlJazeera after taking Kabul. An unbiased wiki would have interest to add it. Pick any newspaper you want as your source, i don't care, i am not getting money from a SuperPAC to edit wikipedia like you. Do your job Nciiiiieedd (talk) 21:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

For the last 40 years, we have struggled to establish peace in Afghanistan. We have defeated the forces of the atheistic Communists and the Zionist west and we have liberated our country.

We invite all Afghans to participate in our Islamic Emirate and we promise we will work for the betterment of our people. Our priorities are to bring peace to all regions of Afghanistan and to ensure the fairness of law. We will punish those who have done evil and we will pardon those who fought against us, but have now submitted themselves. Allah is the most merciful and we can only thank Allah for our victory. Islam will be upheld in Afghanistan.

We have but a few things to say to the world. If you want peace with us, end your hatred for our government of Afghanistan and recognize our rule. We are the rulers of this land graced by Allah, and no matter how hard you have tried, you have never defeated us.

To the people of this world, especially the Palestinians, we hope that our victory over the superpowers of mankind will inspire you, as our faith in Allah has been confirmed for all to see. How can you deny Allah and his will when he has delivered such a great victory to the believers? We dream of a world in which there is peace between all and we ask all world governments to recognize our government. Our message to the American people and people of the western powers who fought us, who we know are hurt by this defeat, is simple: we do not have any hatred for you. Your government, ran by Zionists and atheists, who want to spread their anti-Islamic views here, were our enemies, not you. We will pray for the day when you liberate yourselves from their grip and there can be peace upon this planet. One day, in the future, we hope the whole world will see the truth of Islam. Allah is the most merciful.

Yes this article is now misleading. The war is over and the Taliban won and everyone knows it. Hilarious to see Democratic editors attack this article. Colliric (talk) 01:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I’m arguing the same as you but I think it best if we not talk about editors politics. And anyways, the Afghan disaster could just as easily be read as the collapse of the neoconservative project of using military force to convert other lands to our image. Fukuyama himself sees it as marking the end the US as the superpower.[6] Many interpretations abound.Freepsbane (talk) 05:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
"The war is over and the Taliban won and everyone knows it."
The Taliban rolling into Kabul nearly unopposed is very reminiscent of ISIS rolling into Mosul nearly unopposed. Of course, it would have been very incorrect to declare the war against ISIS over at that time. 2601:281:D47F:AE60:FD18:5947:165:39BD (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

The History section needs to be rewritten and restructured

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Right now, the history between 2001-2017 are all separate in its own article History of the War in Afghanistan (2001–2021). I remember this was done about 2 years ago because the weight of this War article became too much so contributers decided to split most of it away in a dedicated History article and only keep the very recent years history here.

Now that the war has ended, the History section on this War article needs to be restructured. The most important, key events of this war from 2001 up until the end will have to be written in good sections, and any trivial small details that are currently present in 2018/2019/2020/2021 (for example a statement by x minister from y country about the war; or the Taliban captured x on this day, then captured y on this day, then captured z on this day... typical sentences taken from news articles and not very encyclopedic) to be moved to the full detailed History article, or deleted if it's too trivial for Wikipedia.

See Vietnam War as a good quality example: it outlines all the major events of that war in sections/subsections, with a See also/Main article for full details of that particular event. That's how this War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) article also needs to be turned into. I hope there are good editors here to improve the History accordingly and I am willing to contribute too. --Weaveravel (talk) 00:01, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Pakistan as belligerent

Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

There are many sources that state Pakistan support the Taliban militarily with arms, training etc. Eg.: https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghan2/Afghan0701-02.htm

Should they be mentioned in the InfoBox?

82.24.178.172 (talk) 18:39, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Pakistan is already in the infobox.Manabimasu (talk) 20:22, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

They've certainly been accused of secretly helping/supporting which has been mentioned in the page but is that enough to place them there in accordance with the three main core content principles? Dasein (talk) 15:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

@82.24.178.172 @Manabimasu @Daseiin per Wikipedia:Verifiability, encyclopedic information must be verifiable. I'd put an eye to secondary sources over stuff like the primary source linked. Aasim (talk) 04:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
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