- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:23, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
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Berenice Wyer
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Berenice Wyer
... that Berenice Wyer (pictured) was an expert of art songs, one of her best work being the adaptation of Stephen Phillips's Paolo and Francesca?Source: Johnson, Anne (1914). Notable women of St. Louis, 1914. St. Louis, Woodward. p. 255 ([1])- ALT1:
... that Berenice Wyer (pictured) was a composer of art songs like Paolo e Francesca from Stephen Phillips, The Sky Above The Roofing Lies from Paul Verlaine and Tropic Memories from Charles Baudelaire?Source: Missouri Historical Review, Vol. 17, 1922 ([2])
- ALT1:
Created by Elisa.rolle (talk). Self-nominated at 12:21, 6 August 2017 (UTC).
- Comment: both hooks use parentheses, which is not allowed under WP:DYKSG#C9 except for "(pictured)"; please revise them to eliminate the parenthetical usage. Also, as I have noted on the article's talk page, neither the Wikipedia article nor standard dictionaries allow for the meaning ascribed here to "cantillation"; we should use words that have an appropriate meaning, unlike in this case, where art song is equated with cantillation. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:41, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- revised Elisa.rolle (talk) 22:12, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Interesting life, on plenty of sources, offline source accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. I prefer the original hook, as the added titles don't tell us much more about her. What's an "expert of art song"? Why not simply "composed art songs including ..." - The image is licensed and gives a good idea of the period. - Article:
- We have international readers, - tell them which St. Louis, or just American.
- Do you mean piano when you say pianoforte?
- links for terms such as counterpoint, leitmotif and fugue, and keys such as C major?
- Songs are usually rendered in quotation marks, not italics.
- Generic titles (such as Etude) are not italic.
- tour, why tounée?
- I am not happy with the rather confusing family section. Judith mentioned, and makes a reader search for the relationship. "Dr." too often. Do we really need details about people in future generations?
- infobox ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:25, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, I think you forgot to add a review tick. Thanks, --Usernameunique (talk) 19:36, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
yes, sorry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:10, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, addressed the point above other than removing the family details... there are not specific articles about that on wikipedia, and I do not want to create a page for the husband and the son, therefore I prefer to leave the details on the mother. If in the future someone will think useful to create the page, they can remove it then. Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:29, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you, and understood. Can you still reduce a bit, example: "In 1911 Wyer lectured before the Piano Club of Kirkwood, gave lecture recitals in St. Louis, which were valuable not alone to every serious student of music, but as a help to concert-goers toward an intelligent appreciation of the great musical works." - could be "In 1911 Wyer lectured before the Piano Club of Kirkwood, and gave lecture recitals in St. Louis." - I never heard the term "cantillation", understand that it's word and music, but don't know if alternating or at the same time, as in it:Melologo. It needs a link or a source. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt: changed the sentence fro 1911, and added the link to American art song (actually I included Wyer in the list of composer...)
- ALT2: ... that one of the best work by art song composer Berenice Wyer (pictured) is the adaptation of Stephen Phillips's Paolo and Francesca? Source: Johnson, Anne (1914). Notable women of St. Louis, 1914. St. Louis, Woodward. p. 255 ([3])
- Sorry, I don't understand "Her field was at the time known as cantillation (current term Art song), the combining of spoken words and music." - In art song, the words are not spoken but sung. The normal meaning of cantillation (today) seems to be religious chanting, especially in Hebrew, no? - Perhaps it's "art song (then known as cantillation)"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt: changed. Elisa.rolle (talk) 22:33, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- I changed further, see if still ok. How does "spoken" come in? Nothing spoken in the art songs I know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:42, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt : it's in the source. like it's the term cantillation. but remember the source is a contemporary one, from 1914, therefore I dare to say, in 100 years maybe there was a change in fashion? maybe in the past it was spoken words and music, then it was no fashion anymore and it became sung words and music. But I'm not art song expert either, therefore I do not dare to change the source. Elisa.rolle (talk) 22:47, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- So we have a contradiction, that I'd like to solve one way or the other. You can have an equation "art song=chantillation", then please don't say "spoken", or you find out if chantillation is something different which includes spoken words. I wonder why we don't have an English term for the Italian "melologo" ("Melodram" in German, but that means something different in English). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:23, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- I changed further, see if still ok. How does "spoken" come in? Nothing spoken in the art songs I know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:42, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't understand "Her field was at the time known as cantillation (current term Art song), the combining of spoken words and music." - In art song, the words are not spoken but sung. The normal meaning of cantillation (today) seems to be religious chanting, especially in Hebrew, no? - Perhaps it's "art song (then known as cantillation)"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you, and understood. Can you still reduce a bit, example: "In 1911 Wyer lectured before the Piano Club of Kirkwood, gave lecture recitals in St. Louis, which were valuable not alone to every serious student of music, but as a help to concert-goers toward an intelligent appreciation of the great musical works." - could be "In 1911 Wyer lectured before the Piano Club of Kirkwood, and gave lecture recitals in St. Louis." - I never heard the term "cantillation", understand that it's word and music, but don't know if alternating or at the same time, as in it:Melologo. It needs a link or a source. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- Interesting life, on plenty of sources, offline source accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. I prefer the original hook, as the added titles don't tell us much more about her. What's an "expert of art song"? Why not simply "composed art songs including ..." - The image is licensed and gives a good idea of the period. - Article:
Comment: I'm not sure this has a solution. As long as the (public domain) text from Johnson is being used, we are stuck with its non-standard definition and usage of "cantillation". A century later, we have no idea how knowledgeable Johnson was when it came to music, or how dispassionate or accurate she was when it came to her biographical subjects (how much fact-checking was involved, and how much came directly from said subjects); the entries I have read strike me as rather laudatory without mentioning any warts at all. Johnson edited and published the book herself, and the individual sketches came, according to the book's Foreword, from "an afternoon" spent with each of the subjects. Given Wikipedia's cautions regarding self-published sources, I think the Johnson material should be given more scrutiny. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:01, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset: in case of Wyer I integrated with 20 other sources, therefore I think it's well proven. The problem is with that sentence, where Johnson says "spoken words", but truth be told there is another source that says " "Paolo and Francesca" was performed at the Social Union, Amherst, on February 5, 1920, with Adele Hoes Lee, reader, and Wyer, piano." ("The Massachusetts Collegian: Amherst Newspaper, MASS., Sep 25 1929- Jun 12 1930". The Massachusetts Collegian. 1920).. "reader" not singer... therefore I can only assume it's correct and that cantillation at the time was a mix of words and music. But cantillation with that purpose is no more in use. I found in later sources the use of art songs, and art songs is still in use. Elisa.rolle (talk) 07:58, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- My problem with only a reader and a pianist (but no singer) mentioned is that perhaps it is no art song, but music to illustrate moods and words of poetry, as music for a silent film. - Do we have any source calling her a composer of art song? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:36, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt: [4]: "Mrs. Berenice Crumb Wyer has in manuscript several splendid art songs, among them being "I Have A Rendezvous With Death," "Requiescat," "To Ships," "Remembrance," and "The Mocking Bird." Noteworthy are a setting from Verlaine "The Sky Above The Roofing Lies," and one from Baudelaire "Tropic Memories." Three songs from her "Paolo and Francesca" complete Mrs. Wyer's lyrical output."
- Ok, art song is fine. Can we equate it with chantillation, or is that something different for spoken voive and music, such as these? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:54, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt: Can we equate it with chantillation? it's an assumption: one source says "Paolo e Francesca" was "cantillation", another source says they are "art songs", putting together the two sources can you equate? Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:12, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- See above. We can equate them, but then should drop saying it was performed by a speaker. Just give name of artist, perhaps? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:18, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- The Johnson source gives Enoch Arden (Strauss) for narrator and piano as an example (and original inspiration) for what Wyer wrote, though that article calls the genre "incidental music" and the Strauss work in particular a melodrama. Based on this review, the three songs (for baritone) do not seem to have been integral to Paolo and Francesca, but were certainly a part of it. The original narrator, Taussig, seems to have been an opera singer, so he probably also sang the three songs. Finally, when I see a phrase like "art song composer X" I take from that the composer was best known for composing art song. Is that really true? Based on the other sources, I would have said that she was more known for her larger works. And I frankly doubt the accuracy of the article's "her field was art songs, then called cantillation" statement, or the characterization of Enoch Arden as a novelty. If we don't have a true understanding of what "cantillation" meant, then we shouldn't give an assumed definition in Wikipedia's voice. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset: I sort of (I think) agree here. I would prefer not to make assumption. We removed the wikilink to cantillation cause that is not the meaning on this article. And we have sources (two different sources, Johnson and the Amherst journal) that said they were "readers" not "singers", therefore, changing the source with our (modern) understanding is not correct for me. Or we leave the source as it is, or we remove it all. But I'm against the idea to remove it since, it's not one opinion (Johnson) it's also other sources saying they did not sing but read along music. Elisa.rolle (talk) 15:54, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- The Johnson source gives Enoch Arden (Strauss) for narrator and piano as an example (and original inspiration) for what Wyer wrote, though that article calls the genre "incidental music" and the Strauss work in particular a melodrama. Based on this review, the three songs (for baritone) do not seem to have been integral to Paolo and Francesca, but were certainly a part of it. The original narrator, Taussig, seems to have been an opera singer, so he probably also sang the three songs. Finally, when I see a phrase like "art song composer X" I take from that the composer was best known for composing art song. Is that really true? Based on the other sources, I would have said that she was more known for her larger works. And I frankly doubt the accuracy of the article's "her field was art songs, then called cantillation" statement, or the characterization of Enoch Arden as a novelty. If we don't have a true understanding of what "cantillation" meant, then we shouldn't give an assumed definition in Wikipedia's voice. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- See above. We can equate them, but then should drop saying it was performed by a speaker. Just give name of artist, perhaps? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:18, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt: Can we equate it with chantillation? it's an assumption: one source says "Paolo e Francesca" was "cantillation", another source says they are "art songs", putting together the two sources can you equate? Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:12, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Ok, art song is fine. Can we equate it with chantillation, or is that something different for spoken voive and music, such as these? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:54, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- My problem with only a reader and a pianist (but no singer) mentioned is that perhaps it is no art song, but music to illustrate moods and words of poetry, as music for a silent film. - Do we have any source calling her a composer of art song? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:36, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- I looked a bit further, and think now that an equation of art song and cantillation is wrong. The latter really seems to be something different, spoken verse and music, see here (p. 69). Namely the Paolo and Francesca seems to be no song, thus ALT2 is misleading. I found no source (other than Wikipedia) for her and "art song", and only few for her and "song", - perhaps it's exaggerating to name her together with well-known composers of art song? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:22, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- At first I was using cantillation, but another editor had it removed since the modern term is no more the same. The source I provided says she "has in manuscript several splendid art songs" and "Paolo and Francesca" are among them, therefore I do not think is wrong to put it on the hook if we do not want to revert back to the cantillation. Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- I find it interesting that the Missouri Historical Review (now source number 11, since I combined the two instances of it when I combined the sentences that used two variants of it) has the following statement: "According to the composer, Paolo and Francesca is a Cantillation for Reader with Piano accompaniment, with three songs for Baritone": that is, that Wyer herself called it a "cantillation" (much like she called another of her compositions a sonata). That source introduces such works with "Closely akin to song writing is the composition of a musical accompaniment, usually for piano, to a poetic recitation." So that's the type of composition it is according to that source; if she gave it the name of "Cantillation" it is not one that seems to have caught on. Finally, the list of art songs in the article included "Spring Fantasie" and "Twilight in the Garden", both of which appear (from the source) to be works for violin and piano with no mention of a vocal component, so I have removed them from the art song list. Wyer appears to have composed primarily for the piano—indeed, she appears to have been a fine performer on that instrument as well—so even though she wrote a number of art songs, it is still misleading to characterize her as an art song composer when that was, based on the works mentioned in sources, not a primary part of her output. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:42, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I sort have to admit here that I'm not musical expert, therefore I propose here two approaches: 1) someone with more expertize than me may adjust the article and/or the hook, and then have credit for it? 2) withdrew this DYK and leave the article as it's (second option less preferred, but willing to accept it). Elisa.rolle (talk) 09:58, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset, could you do that? I am busy and will have company for some days (and also should not approve my own hook). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:57, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can do over the next few days. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset, could you do that? I am busy and will have company for some days (and also should not approve my own hook). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:57, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I sort have to admit here that I'm not musical expert, therefore I propose here two approaches: 1) someone with more expertize than me may adjust the article and/or the hook, and then have credit for it? 2) withdrew this DYK and leave the article as it's (second option less preferred, but willing to accept it). Elisa.rolle (talk) 09:58, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I find it interesting that the Missouri Historical Review (now source number 11, since I combined the two instances of it when I combined the sentences that used two variants of it) has the following statement: "According to the composer, Paolo and Francesca is a Cantillation for Reader with Piano accompaniment, with three songs for Baritone": that is, that Wyer herself called it a "cantillation" (much like she called another of her compositions a sonata). That source introduces such works with "Closely akin to song writing is the composition of a musical accompaniment, usually for piano, to a poetic recitation." So that's the type of composition it is according to that source; if she gave it the name of "Cantillation" it is not one that seems to have caught on. Finally, the list of art songs in the article included "Spring Fantasie" and "Twilight in the Garden", both of which appear (from the source) to be works for violin and piano with no mention of a vocal component, so I have removed them from the art song list. Wyer appears to have composed primarily for the piano—indeed, she appears to have been a fine performer on that instrument as well—so even though she wrote a number of art songs, it is still misleading to characterize her as an art song composer when that was, based on the works mentioned in sources, not a primary part of her output. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:42, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- At first I was using cantillation, but another editor had it removed since the modern term is no more the same. The source I provided says she "has in manuscript several splendid art songs" and "Paolo and Francesca" are among them, therefore I do not think is wrong to put it on the hook if we do not want to revert back to the cantillation. Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, Elisa.rolle, the revisions to the article are finally complete; it took me longer than I expected. Please make sure that the Career section still reads smoothly; I omitted some Johnson text and revised other parts, as I didn't feel the prose was always suitable for an encyclopedia. I'm still contemplating potential hooks, but here's one to get the ball rolling:
- ALT2: ... that pianist and composer Berenice Wyer's second work "for Reader with Piano accompaniment", Paolo and Francesca, was produced in New York and Chicago?
- Please let me know if you have other suggestions. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:50, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset, Gerda Arendt: ALT3:
... that pianist Berenice Wyer made her debut at Steinert Hall, Boston, unanimously acclaimed by critics as an high-class artist?(BlueMoonset, thank you for the copyedit it looks more than good). Elisa.rolle (talk) 07:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)- Thank you, both, greatly improved! Both hooks miss the image, so I try the other way round. The story of Paolo and Francesca (like Romeo and Juliet) is attractive, even to people not interested in music. In ALT3, you'd have to say that she isn't from Boston, which would make it clumsy. I believe that telling people that her work was performed in different major cities tells enough about her being more than a local musician.
- ALT4: ... that Paolo and Francesca, the second work "for Reader with Piano accompaniment" by pianist and composer Berenice Wyer (pictured), was produced in New York and Chicago?
but open for ALTs. Please, a bit more lead, - it's another point in the process of attracting the reader to read more, and at present I would not be tempted. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset, Gerda Arendt: ALT3:
Copyvio, footnote 15. Compare: "When Harold Wyer was a young man he developed an enthusiasm for short-wave radios. He built his own sets, qualified for commercial broadcasting, and while in the U.S. Navy during World War II served as a radio technician and a member of the Naval Reserve Radio Division. While at Bowdoin College, he joined Theta Delta Chi fraternity, and was the assistant manager of the swim team and a member of the rifle team." with "When he was a young man he developed an enthusiasm for short-wave radios. He built his own sets, qualified for commercial broadcasting, and while in the Navy during World War II served as a radio technician and a member of the Naval Reserve Radio Division. His love of radio technology continues to this day. While at Bowdoin, Harold joined Theta Delta Chi fraternity, and was the assistant manager of the swim team and a member of the rifle team." Nikkimaria (talk) 12:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt: Changed "The Harold and Faith Wyer Scholarship Fund, established in 2007 in support of scholarships to Bowdoin undergraduates, was founded by Judith L. Wyer (died 2013), in honor of her parents, Harold and Faith B. Wyer (1918–2009). Harold Wyer was a commercial broadcaster and while in the U.S. Navy during World War II was a member of the Naval Reserve Radio Division. Later he worked for General Electric Co. and Bethlehem Steel Co."
- fine with me, what do others think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:31, 15 September 2017 (UTC)