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Template:Did you know nominations/Walter Augustus de Havilland

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 17:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

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Walter Augustus de Havilland

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Created by Yunshui (talk). Self nominated at 13:07, 8 December 2014 (UTC).

Article is long enough and new enough. Hook is correctly formatted and article has a ref behind the stated fact. Article is well referenced with refs in the right places. G of go capitalised per our article. I detected no close paraphrasing or copy violations but most sources are offline, linked only to Google books without preview so AGF on those. I removed the claim in the article that he tried to seduce his daughter Joan as although he is dead and can't be libelled, it seemed anecdotal and was sourced only to the Daily Mail article. The hook is fine I think but the article needs to say who thought him the first competent Western player. I know it has a ref but it must have been someone much earlier who thought this. Do we know who? Once it has that it will be good to go. Philafrenzy (talk) 13:16, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the work you've done on the article, Phil. You even found a picture! (kinda looks like Vladimir Putin, doesn't he?) As far as who considered him the first competent Westerner, I guess the answer is Fairbairn himself - the actual text of the source reads He was by no means the first Western player (senior diplomat Sir Harry Parkes had frequented the school of Honinbo Shuho) but he was probably the first of any decent strength[1] He later suggests that Iwate, in reviewing the game, looked upon de Havilland as something of an oddity (a half-decent English player was on a par with a talking dog, to use Fairbairn's imagery), but the assessment of strength seems to be based on Fairbairn's own review of the game record. Yunshui 雲水 14:27, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Fairbairn, John; Hall, T. Mark (2009). The Go Companion: Go in History and Culture. Slate & Shell. p. 69. ISBN 9781932001433.
  • Thanks for the full quote. I am sorry to say it rather undermines the claim in the hook and indeed in the article. I think both are going to have to be revised. Could you come up with an alternative hook? Philafrenzy (talk) 15:07, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
If you like: how about ALT1 ... that Walter Augustus de Havilland, father of Olivia de Havilland and Joan Fontaine, published a book about the Japanese game of Go? Yunshui 雲水 15:11, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes that will be fine. I will tick it when the article is revised in line with the quote. Thanks. Philafrenzy (talk) 15:14, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
[1]? Yunshui 雲水 15:17, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Much obliged for the review. Yunshui 雲水 15:27, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
I'd slightly prefer to word it as ALT3: ... that Walter Augustus de Havilland's obsession with the Japanese game of Go meant he hardly paid attention to his daughters, Olivia de Havilland and Joan Fontaine? but yeah, that could work. It would need a citation for that sentence in the article (Fairbairn says pretty much that exact thing. so would do as a source). Yunshui 雲水 20:12, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but I find them both rather gossipy without any objective sources to back them up. The memoirs of Hollywood actresses are not exactly known for being reliable are they? I think we should go with ALT1, which we know is true. Philafrenzy (talk) 02:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Your call, Phil; I'm happy either way. Yunshui 雲水 08:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Fact can be found in ref #4. Anyone care to reapprove this? Fuebaey (talk) 17:59, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Calling for reviewer. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Why does it need a new review? What's wrong with the originally approved Alt1? Philafrenzy (talk) 08:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm going to restore Philafrenzy's tick over the point raised by Yoninah. The inline citation is not placed at the fact but at the end of the following sentence. The hook cite rule is meant to dissuade users from making stuff up. Since it's verifiable, I don't see a reason for bureaucracy to stand in the way. Fuebaey (talk) 15:52, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
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