Template talk:Infobox IPA

Error

There's an error in the display but I'm not sure how to fix it. Anyone else notice it? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Built in play button

Is there a reason we don't use the built-in play button that works on any browser, and doesn't load a new page? I've set it up in the sandbox, and tested it in the testcases. It works, even if it is a bit ugly on Firefox 3.5+— trlkly 10:32, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I think I'll be bold and change it. You can always change it back, and then we can try to form concensus. I just want to be able to direct people to the pages so they can hear what they sound like. If they have to setup a program, they won't do it. — trlkly 01:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

It is now. Still a bit of a construction. -DePiep (talk) 23:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Change into standard infobox

I have started a /sandbox to turn this box into a standard infobox. -DePiep (talk) 02:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Major changes

• The template uses the basic metatemplate {{infobox}}. This results in a standard infobox layout and style. Also, it has the rule: when a parameter is not entered, the whole line should not show (like omitting the Kirshenbaum input).
• Currently two templates are used: {{infobox IPA}} and {{infobox IPA base}}. The first is simple and handles single character IPA symbols. The latter is needed when there are multiple characters involved. The new template combines both templates (we only need one template to cover all). Also, Tone letters has a handcrafted table to produce the effect; the new one covers that situation too.
• More input options: two notes (each with or without label) are possible. The image can have a caption.
• Image showing is optional: when there is a symbol by font (show big to pass enough detail, such as diacritics), the optional image file is hidden to prevent double showing. The Image has the show/hide button.
• Inner workings are improved (better code). Internally used templates are structured. The template also uses the recently created {{IPA soundbox}} (no more the {{IPAsound}}, which was difficult in maintenance). As a consequence, there are some five internal subtemplates. -DePiep (talk) 21:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC) minor edits -DePiep (talk) 13:36, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

bad internet explorer 9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.27.55.160 (talk) 21:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Introduction plan

• After testing, sandboxing, and first documentation the new code should replace the old code in template {{infobox IPA}}. This way the name can be retained, and usage (currently 114 pages) does not need editing.
• Deprecated, older parameters are still usable. This too means that changing the code does not need editing the articles.
• Once the new code is entered, the old {{infobox IPA base}} is not called any more from the template. Still, its ~35 direct uses (for multiple-character symbols) will need article page editing into the new version.
• Never broken: never during this development process, not one usage shall be broken. Each step guarantees proper showing of any template in article space.
• After usage of the base-template is zero (after the replacement edits), two templates are unused an will be proposed for deletion by TfD: {{infobox IPA base}} and {{IPAsound}}. -DePiep (talk) 21:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

new {{Infobox IPA}}

 from sandbox into live-DePiep (talk) 12:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
{{Infobox IPA/sandbox}} Here is a proposed new infobox IPA. It should replace both old boxes. Here are testcases/examples: {{infobox IPA/testcases}}. -DePiep (talk) 02:45, 28 January 2011 (UTC) Split from here: section about variant symbols for the same phonetic sound. See: #Variant symbols-DePiep (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Set font-weight into normal (not bold) by double request at Talk:IPA. -DePiep (talk) 12:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Variant symbols

Split from section about {{Infobox IPA}}. Topic here is: variant symbols for the same phonetic sound. -DePiep (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if listing all the potential unicode entities for sounds that have no unicode entities is the right way to go. Perhaps we should formalize a sort of N/A option when this happens. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 03:57, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure if I get what you mean. Can you give an example? Maybe this is to the pont. First: the new template (in the sandbox) has the standard infobox feature: "parameter not entered, ==> no output". e.g. "kirshenbaum=" empty or omitted --> no Kirshenbaum line presented at all in the box. Second: symbols that are build up of two characters (e.g. using a diacritic, or the tie) may not be single-defined in Unicode. Then the way to proceed is entering a couple of characters, which is correct Unicode usage. Third, if you mean to say is a usage policy proposal only, it does not change the template (requirements), so that discussion can proceed separately. For what it's worth: currently there are some 114 uses of {{infobox IPA}}, which means single-character input (one Unicode character). Another 35 use {{infobox IPA base}} directly, mostly to enter multiple characters (multiple HTML decimal values). — Preceding unsigned comment added by DePiep (talk • contribs) 13:29, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

For sure they are not "potential" entities, (as in "just choose one from the list"), but they are needed entities, needed to present the symbol. This way I see no reason to separate the single-ones from the composed-ones and treat them different (by omitting the latter). If we agree that the decimal and Unicode entity are to be present in the box, then we should not make a difference after that. -DePiep (talk) 14:34, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I guess I misunderstood what e.g. ʊ​̈ (for the near-close central rounded vowel) meant. The thing about sounds like this (especially vowels) is that there isn't just one way to represent them. [ʉ̞] and [ʊ̈] are both accurate for the near-close central rounded vowel; [ø̞] and [œ̝] for the mid front rounded vowel. It's a little misleading to say that indicate that there's one authoritative way to represent them, which is what seems to be happening here. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 22:10, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, these variants. Well, for this situation, I have created used two available possible options on how to show these in an article. See the testpage. Of course, that is if we want to show them both somehow (on that, I have no opinion -- I'm just creating & showing the options).

For this, in IPAsym, I have added two lines: 318 430 and ʉ̞ = near-close central rounded vowel (is correct?).

The new template allows for big symbol only show (demo too on the testpage), which can be usefull to show the details (diacritics) well. I just like that. -DePiep (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Infobox IPA base

Template:Infobox IPA base has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. General notice. -DePiep (talk) 17:25, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Todo: option two symbols

e.g. Retroflex ejective affricate: has two IPA symbols: ʈ͡ʂʼ tʂʼ We need a second input like "ipa symbol2 = " ... so that the first symbol can work it s effects, and also no bigfont comma is needed. - Will do when the protection is lower. -DePiep (talk) 01:29, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Add Wiki-code line

I think it would be best to add a copyable Wiki-Code Line.

What do you think about this?Iamiyouareyou (talk) 14:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

What code would be in that line? Copying the HTML entity code already works: copied from Near-close central rounded vowel ʊ​̈ → ʊ​̈ -DePiep (talk) 14:40, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I did change the HTML entities into <code>, which only has effect for the eye. -DePiep (talk) 15:30, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

editprotect

Request

Copy all code from the sandbox page into main template (replacing): {{infobox IPA/sandbox}} this version → {{infobox IPA}}

Changes

• It allows for three more symbols to be added (| ipa symbol2=... | ipa symbol3=... | ipa symbol4=... ), which will show in big font too on top, but without interfering with first symbol internal usage (such as retrieving the sound name).
  
• HTML character entity is presented in <code>: ʊ​̈.
• The newer and completer {{IPA audio filename}} is used to compose the correct soundfile name
• The new code places the soundbox nicer (wider, central).
• The below text (v-d-e box) can be hidden

Background

The new code calls a different sub-template (/core1, not /core). In {{infobox IPA/core1}} and {{infobox IPA/core2}}, new code is present. (Current sub-templates {{infobox IPA/process input}} and {{infobox IPA/core}} will become superfluous (unused) so to be deleted.
The soundbox is called with extra settings, to be used in later soundbox development (while stil compatible w/ current version).

Tested

Sandbox is shown tested on the page {{infobox IPA/testcases}}.
(reopened request, earlier 15 July request was canceled). -DePiep (talk) 15:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done by Kwami

Thanks. -DePiep (talk) 18:10, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Wrong sound

The sound recorded in the audio sample is wrong. For me, as Spaniard, it sounds more like a kind of "darkish" /u/, instead of the clear Spanish /o/ of "gato" or "moto" (which corresponds to a short English "more". I suggest changing the sound file for a better one.

I think the sound-sample should be changed. The previous one was way more accurate than this: just listen to the Swedish "öl", it sounds very much like the previous file rather than this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.255.182.164 (talk) 14:47, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

template equvilent in Hebrew

This template's equvilent in Hebrew is [[he:תבנית:תיבת עיצור]]. i would add it myself to the English template but i don't know how.--EsB (talk) 17:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

 Done. Please check. -DePiep (talk) 17:18, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! --EsB (talk) 19:02, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

V-T-E box

Frietjes and Victor Yus are removing the vt-e box from this template. [1].

Since they did not point to any general line, I see no reason to do so. The es. "why do we even need an edit link here" (Frietjes) and "I checked some very commonly used infoboxes and I think you're mistaken; none of them have this" (VJ) are, at best, poor arguments. Templates in mainspace very often have this box. -DePiep (talk) 16:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Also at Template talk:Infobox IPA/core2.  Done I'd say. -DePiep (talk) 21:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Hiding file linkage

The audio files that are embedded in this template in articles like voiceless velar fricative or voiceless pharyngeal fricative can't be accessed by anyone without detailed knowledge of wikicode. I had to dig down to one of the sub-template to understand even how the files were linked.

Is this just a technical glitch or is it the same for all users? If the latter, this needs to be fixed. It's not acceptable to make it almost impossible to reuse files, ascertain information about licensing or find out who the original creator is.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:27, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm convinced all these transclusions is the reason it takes about two to three eons to preview IPA pages. — Lfdder (talk) 15:52, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Template:IPA soundbox was the offending template that made it possible to hide info links. I've removed this option now. Anyone is welcome to discuss, but please don't revert me unless you can explain how it can be compatible with our policies regarding free content and licensing.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:42, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if it's something you've done, but the infobox is much wider now. — Lfdder (talk) 17:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Yup, it was me.[2] I simply removed the parameters that the template to tinker away the info link. I'm sure it's crapping up a bunch of complicated transclusions, but that's less of a concern in my view. I'm hoping it will get people's attention, because we can't keep violating copyright guidelines just to achieve prettier layout results.

Peter ^Isotalo 18:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the 250px default from {{IPA soundbox/build soundbox}}. I think it's same width it was before now. — Lfdder (talk) 18:44, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

By the way, the player otherwise looks the exact same it did before to me. Does this only have an effect in browsers that can't play these sounds? — Lfdder (talk) 19:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be about the sound, not the symbol?

I've always felt this template is quite useless because where you find it is in articles on phonetic sounds, so it would rather be of more help if the infobox was about the sound instead of the symbol(s), i.e. place/manner of articulation, distinctive features, etc. Nardog (talk) 10:54, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Diacritic spills out of bounding box

On Voiceless retroflex nasal, the lower character juts out of the yellow box, likely due to the diacritic. Opencooper (talk) 12:40, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

When was "kirshenbaum" deleted from the template?

Preview warning: Page using Template:Infobox IPA with unknown parameter "kirshenbaum"

I've been getting this warning when editing pages using this template. Should the offending lines be deleted, or should we change the template? Snowman304|talk 01:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

It appears it was removed in June 2019 by @Nardog who left the note rm "Kirshenbaum" - which is not what it's called btw - a system never used or codified by scholarly works.

Nardog, could you explain this removal? A few points:

1. Kirshenbaum is, factually, called Kirshenbaum; sometimes it is also called ASCII-IPA or erkIPA but the fact the page is under the title Kirshenbaum suggests that is, in fact, the WP:COMMONNAME. Regardless, if you disagree, it seems like insufficient reason to remove a parameter; but of course, you gave other reasons.
2. The next is that it is a system never used or codified by scholarly works.

• First, what exactly is your definition of a "scholarly work—do you mean "scholarly publication"? And why should that be the sole metric? Nowadays most everything published just works in Unicode, so it also doesn't use (for example) X-SAMPA (which is still a template parameter by the way), but that and Kirshenbaum are still useful when working in ASCII-only environments eSpeak uses Kirshenbaum, and while eSpeak is not, itself, a (peer-reviewed) scholarly publication, it is a widely used and influential software package.
• Still, even going off your restrictive litmus test, it is manifestly not true that the scheme is not used in scholarly publications; it's not super common by any means but a cursory Google Books/Scholar search reveals it is still used or referenced from time to time, in books ([3] [4] [5]) and papers ([6] [7] [8]).

Brusquedandelion (talk) 10:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

[9] is from an alleged vanity press. [10] is a sentence-long mention and [11] is less than that. [12] is an undergraduate thesis, which certainly is not an RS. [13] is a self-published paper by an AI company and its only mention of Kirshenbaum's name is the mapping suggested in the specification for X-SAMPA (Kirshenbaum, 2001)—what even is that? [14] appears to be no more than a course material. And I haven't managed to find coverage that's any better.

The system some call "Kirshenbaum"—likely because of our article; Kirshenbaum certainly didn't—sprung up on Usenet; Kirshenbaum only summarized and tweaked it. X-SAMPA, on the other hand, was devised by a former IPA President and is easily found to be mentioned in works from much more reputable authors and publishers. The use by eSpeak is the only thing going for including the Usenet system AFAICS, but at that point I'd say the ASCII encodings used in TIPA, Praat, and Keyman have at the very least the same amount of utility. Nardog (talk) 11:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Replacing audio file for e

The audio file for [e] at the minute is a diphthong [eɪ̯] (I have also checked it with Praat to confirm the diphthongization). I suggest replacing it with this audio. Stockhausenfan (talk) 00:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The recording you linked is too short and ambiguous and sounds closer to an /ɪ/ (or /e̞/) in my opinion. Emdosis (talk) 18:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)