Template talk:Infobox television/Archive 15

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Archive 15

alt_name bugfix

There was a bug in the infobox with |alt_name= which I fixed here. The infobox will now place the value of the text in italics if it is singular. When it is plural it won't, as lists can cause lint errors. These will need italics to be manually added.

Additionally, if the value has disambiguation (such as Another name (1999)), the template will handle it so only the text outside the parenthesis is in italics.

I'm working on a tracking category for the plural cases so those can be fixed.

Testcases can be found here. Please let me know if you see anything that needs to be fixed.

I'll update the live code in a few days if no issues are reported. Gonnym (talk) 19:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

An issue that probably will arise and will need fixing, is that if an alt title already uses italics, it will now have 4 ' and will be in bold with an extra one on each side. Gonnym (talk) 12:04, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

A tracking category can be added to the |plural= section of the Pluralize template transclusion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:30, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'll probably add a tracking category to find plural usages that need fixed. Those are done over at Module:Infobox television as the logic gets more complicated than template syntax can handle. I just need to think how best to catch entries of a list (still hoping to find some template or module out there that will save me writing that code:) ) Gonnym (talk) 15:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

OK, code written to handle plurals without italics and singular with italics. Will make this code live this week. Gonnym (talk) 11:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Slogan (For Seasonal Shows) As Image Caption In Infobox Television

For Seasonal shows Like Bigg Boss , It is best to add slogan of the season as the image caption in infobox television. For Long time it used to be like that, but yesterday one of the member removed slogan from all edition of Bigg Boss in multiple languages. I Request all Members to propose their suggestions below. Alen Hermen (talk) 08:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

To add a bit information to this. This discussion was supposed to be held at Template talk:Infobox television season and not here as it concerns that infobox. Regarding the actual issue, the slogan was used inside |caption= resulting in information that is not relevant to the image at all (a standard Bigg Boss logo). This has also MOS:ACCESSABILITY issues as we're setting screen readers to give incorrect information to their users. I am the editor that removed this usage which was used on exactly 10 articles. Gonnym (talk) 11:43, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The slogan strikes me as off topic. At best it's irrelevant, and at worst it's WP:PROMO. If the slogan has received significant coverage in reliable sources, it can be covered in the body of the article itself. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:32, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Gonnym's point about accessability makes a lot of sense. I see no reason to include it as a separate parameter, and it would be ripe for abuse were it included. I'd be a hard "oppose" if this came up for official discussion/comment. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:47, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Network/dates question

Here's a question regarding {{infobox television}}, seeking input from experienced television editors and template editors. Suppose a show is co-produced (i.e. funded) by an American company like CW, but it's entirely produced/filmed in Canada. When it airs simultaneously in Canada and the US on different networks and (possibly) different air dates, what's the appropriate protocol for listing the |network= and |first_aired=/|last_aired= values? Should we use |network= and |network2=, or would it make more sense to use a plainlist for the multiple networks (considering it's essentially simultaneous, not a reboot or network change)? ButlerBlog (talk) 17:20, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

If the show is a co-production then use plainlist. If it was just produced in Canada that doesn't mean anything. Arrowverse shows were filmed in Canada but they are only American. Gonnym (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Gonnym. That confirms what I was thinking. Here's another one that's related: Children Ruin Everything. In this case, Roku and the CW appear to just be international distribution. My presumption on this one is that it should just be CTV as they are the original network in the country of production (Canada). The others are just picking it up for international distribution. ButlerBlog (talk) 12:58, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't know the show so no idea. I found in the last few months of fixing networks and dates that this is one of worst cases of unverified information in articles, because sometimes it even has a source which makes it seem valid and it still isn't. Children Ruin Everything specifically mentions only Canada in the lead and in the infobox, so that seems to mean that it is only CTV. In any rate, the lead, infobox, body and categories should all match. Gonnym (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

<thumbs up icon here> Thanks! ButlerBlog (talk) 13:10, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Co-Executive Producer listing in info box

This topic has come up previously in the archives, however, it is often related to Co-EP listing on narrative TV shows that often use the credit for writers (who are also listed elsewhere). In documentary TV series, the Co-Executive Producer is most always used to denote the showrunner. Therefore, it seems fair to include that as a separate credit available in the info box. The co-executive producers are more creatively involved and responsible for the series on all levels than producers. The omission therefore overlooks a key role in these types of productions. 2600:4040:912F:B200:99B1:B552:3710:54CE (talk) 18:16, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

That's a matter of opinion - and one that I do not share. If it's a "key" role, then discuss it in the article's prose - specifically, the "Production" section, where it can be given proper context. If you're concerned about the exclusion of "key" information, then add it to the article - there's nothing stopping you (or anyone else) from making sure it's covered. But it doesn't need to be in the infobox. ButlerBlog (talk) 19:29, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

First aired

The parameter for first aired states "The parameter is not restricted to a "premiere" date. In the event a program airs a full "preview" episode on TV in advance of a premiere, that date should be used instead." In the world of streaming, if a series airs a "full preview" episode in theaters should that also be included? Asking in the case of Tulsa King, it "premiered" on Paramount+ on November 13, 2022, but had a "full preview" theatrical release of its first episode on October 29 and 30. TheDoctorWho (talk) 08:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll leave that answer to other editors, but I'll note that the the lead and episode list do not use that date. So whatever is decided here, the lead, infobox and episode list should all use the same date. Gonnym (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and if the answer is no I'll add an efn note in the episode table, just wanted to ask before I changed it either way. TheDoctorWho (talk) 08:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Why episodes aired instead of episodes scheduled?

I just came across this convention on the Masters of the Air page, with someone else griping about it on their talk page. I realize it would be a huge pain to change all the pages to match “episodes scheduled” or planned or whatever. I’d mostly just like to understand why it is this way. And I wonder if there’s a way to change the wording to make it clearer, or perhaps include a link in the template comment for this line pointing to an explanation, to at least reduce some of the frustration by people trying to correct the episode count. (Yes, they should read the comment and not try to change the episode count inappropriately, but it’s so incredibly counterintuitive I can understand people not bothering to read it.)

I’m not familiar with how templates work under the hood. Would it be horrible to change the wording from “No. of episodes” to “Episodes aired”? GaryFx (talk) 14:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

"No. of episodes" is a neutral term because there are some instances where it is appropriate to note the total number of episodes produced, which may not equal the total that actually aired, for series that were prematurely cancelled. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

But doesn’t that mean you can never tell from the infobox whether it’s the number aired or the number produced? GaryFx (talk) 20:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Using footnotes in the infobox

I see the documentation is silent on the use of footnotes. Should we encourage the use of footnotes for certain cases? Here is an example where I think footnotes could be useful.

1. The end date of a television series has been publicly announced
2. The total number of episodes that will be aired for a television series has been publicly announced

I am sure there are other cases in which footnotes could be useful, but these two examples are already on my mind. Up the Walls (talk) 00:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

No. The WP:INFOBOX is pretty clear that the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article, meaning that the end date and number of episode information should be in the article body (and for those specific examples, probably also in the lead). Since the information is in the body of the article, that is where the reference should be placed. Gonnym (talk) 07:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I see now you were talking about regular notes and not references. Well that can depend on the type of note. The two types of notes you added at Young Sheldon violate WP:CRYSTALL so aren't really helpful. Also, they seem to bypass the infobox parameters and create pseudo parameters. If we wanted to have a "number of episodes aired (out of total expected)" we would have a parameter for that, since if it's good for one TV series, it's good for every TV series. Similar to the expected end date. Propose these new parameters here and see if you have consensus to add them. Gonnym (talk) 07:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

That's actually a pretty good idea. Let me think about how to properly phrase it. Up the Walls (talk) 07:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Adding "anticipated" to template

Although Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, there are cases in which future plans have been announced and could be included. Examples include when an end date to television series has been announced. I think that to accommodate under such a condition, we should add to the template the following:

• num_episodes_anticipated: to display next to the num_episodes as such: X (out of an anticipated Y )   if x < y — should not be displayed if x ≥ y
• num_seasons_anticipated: to display next to the num_seasons as such: X (out of an anticipated Y)   if x < y — should not be displayed if x ≥ y
• anticipated_end_date: to display as (anticipated series finale date)   Applicable only if end_date=present, should not be displayed otherwise

The guidelines should say that these fields should only be used prior to the series finale, but only if the an end has been announced with an announced end date and number of episodes until the end. Up the Walls (talk) 17:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I feel this is unnecessarily complicating things. If there was consensus to include anticipated episode numbers, seasons, or end dates then the existing fields could easily accomodate them. The problem isn't that there is no where to put this information, it's that previous discussions have always ended with consensus not to include it at all. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The idea of the infobox is to summarize the article and give the reader as much information as possible with only a quick glance. So if an end for a television series has been announced, this information would be (or more accurately should be) in the article, and I would therefore think should also be in the infobox. Up the Walls (talk) 21:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Many things that are announced do not happen. We report what has happened. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree, we report in the articles the announcements that happened. That's why I think if something is announced, we should include in the infobox information from the announcements using the words "anticipated" to indicate that it hasn't happened yet. Up the Walls (talk) 17:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

But again, you can do that with the existing parameters. A separate param isn't needed to say "anticipated". - adamstom97 (talk) 18:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

How would we accomplish that with existing parameters? Up the Walls (talk) 18:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Episodes: 5 / 10

Episodes: 5 (released) 10 (expected)

Episodes: 10[ref]

etc.

There are many options. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:59, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

None of adam's options are appropriate or correct and as I said above, if this style is good for one series it's good for all series. Gonnym (talk) 08:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

While I don't think we should do any of these, I think these are all just as appropriate as creating whole new parameters for "anticipated" data. - adamstom97 (talk) 10:56, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Creating new parameters after consensus is gained means that we have a standard way of handling this. Using exiting parameters incorrectly is the worst possible option. Gonnym (talk) 13:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting the existing parameters be used incorrectly, I'm suggesting that if there was consensus to include this information at all then we could agree on a way to include it in the existing parameters and update the infobox instructions rather than having to make ridiculous new parameters. To be clear, I don't support either as I think the status quo is fine. I'm just expressing my dislike of these suggested new parameters. - adamstom97 (talk) 13:33, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Disagreement about present or end date on last_aired parameter

Me and another user have different understanding of what last_aired explanation is because some South Korean TV series has renewed but have yet a release date. See this discussion and also this. Can someone help? 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 23:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to remove the "country" parameter

I suggest the "country" parameter in this and related infoboxes be removed as ill-fitting to the present reality of television. The field is either surplus to requirements or confusing in an age where transnational co-productions are common. See Talk:The Crown (TV series)/Archive 2, where the lengthy journey towards consensus over its nationality could have been shortened if the necessity of placing something in this field was mitigated (as the article ultimately stabilised to not name a national origin in its opening sentence). And see the recent discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Doctor Who#Time to change the infobox "original network" parameters per the closing logos at last, where the consensus to add Disney+ as an original network has necessitated adding the United States as a country of origin, despite no one liking that. See also Neighbours, where the US should technically be added since Amazon came on board last year, but I for one can't bring myself to do it. In essence, the original networks listed can easily guide users to countries of origin for shows old and new, and the "location" parameter shows where a series is actually made. The "country" parameter more and more introduces a false impression of how American (in these cases; other countries may of course apply) a programme is that can be easily avoided. U-Mos (talk) 12:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe we should keep it, but stick to what it is labelled as, and that is "Country of origin". The Crown was always a UK/US co-production, hence its country of origin was both, but Doctor Who and Neighbours both originated in the UK and Australia, respectively, and thus they should be the only countries listed for each series. Simply because Doctor Who is now produced by a US company, that does not mean it originated in the US; same with Neighbours and other similar examples. -- Alex_21 _TALK 12:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Having multiple original networks does not necessarily mean there are multiple countries of origin; Doctor Who is solely owned by the BBC ([1] [2]), with Disney+ just having licensed rights (including co-production). It is also, as far as we know, primarily if not solely produced in the UK. It is a potentially challenging field to define consistently and could maybe do with having clearer guidelines for what constitutes country of origin, but I think it is valuable. Irltoad (talk) 13:07, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Very happy to consider guideline changes along those lines. Would this filter to season articles/infoboxes also, i.e. would Doctor Who (series 14) still have to list the US, as Disney+ co-originated that specific year of the show? U-Mos (talk) 13:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would, i.e. DW S14 should not list US as a country of origin despite the D+ co-production. If the co-production deal were a co-ownership deal, then absolutely yes. But it is nuanced and I don't necessarily think that a lack of co-ownership should disqualify a show/season etc. from having multiple countries of origin – it is a combination of various factors which could probably use a broader discussion to identify where the line is. My concern with this is that often details on the extent of co-production are unclear (as has been demonstrated in the DW RFC on original networks, and we probably have more information on the particulars of that deal than for many productions), which could make decision contentious and lengthy. If the guidelines are to be redefined, the aim should be for relative simplicity of decisions based on the amount of information that is typically available. Irltoad (talk) 13:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely, what applies for one country parameter should apply for them all. There is, of course, always room for discussion, in which a series may have originated in one country and then become a co-production between countries later on but for a majority of the series. At the moment, the documentation only states The show's country of origin; should we reword it to something like The country in which the show originated with its first season? -- Alex_21 _TALK 22:29, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd be opposed to that. If a random series had 20 seasons and for its first season was produced in country A, then was renewed in country B for 19 seasons, country B should be mentioned. A country of origin is any country that we also include the article in the categories for (such as "2020s <country> television series"). Gonnym (talk) 23:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

That's fair, that's why I added the consideration of a series may have originated in one country and then become a co-production between countries later on but for a majority of the series. Is there an alternate wording you'd prefer? -- Alex_21 _TALK 01:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

From my understanding, we're considering limiting the country of origin parameter to the country that produced the majority of the series (or two in the case of a long-term co-production deal)? If this is the case, let me take the case of Doctor Who for a second: we'd remove the U.S. as a country for the series overall and series 14/15/2023 specials for the time being. Then if the co-production deal continues for another 16 series, it would suddenly become a majority and we'd have to add them to the said 16? Just trying to understand the ultimate proposal here.

I know Doctor Who uses the term "series" currently instead of "season", but for the sake of comprehension, I'm briefly going to use "season" to differentiate from the "series" [as a whole]. Template:Infobox television season has always been separate from Template:Infobox television in terms of data. I.e. we only put the dates that the season aired, not the whole series, or we only put the starring actors for that season and not those from other seasons. Seems simple. So if it's a co-production deal where it "originated" in two countries, shouldn't both still be listed in the season infobox? It sounds like we'd basically be cherry picking the data based on the number of seasons produced even if one season is vastly different from the rest. It'd basically be the equivalent of removing a one-season actor from the infobox of a 20-season series just because they didn't star in the "majority of the series". To be clear: I'm currently indifferent, on the wording and whether or not the U.S. should be listed in Doctor Who's infobox[es], I'm mainly concerned about consistency and hoping to understand better before I support or oppose the changes being proposed. TheDoctorWho (talk) 05:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe we should primarily stick to the main country of origin, no matter the infobox, and then based on local consensus for each article, adjust it as needed, whether it's a country for 19 out of 20 seasons, or the latest season out of 40. The infoboxes, whether it's for the parent article or season, still describe it as the country of origin. The United States is not a country of origin for Doctor Who series 14, it simply has co-production credits; noted that for that season, we can label it with Disney+ and the United States, and yet the lead still details it as "the British science fiction television programme". The Crown, as an example, needed an extensive discussion at to the country of origin, and a clear consensus formed. -- Alex_21 _TALK 08:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Noted. I'd be fine with something along those lines. My main concern was just that individual seasons be handled independently of the series as a whole, even if it's just one of many seasons.

Categories such as these would probably be something to factor into this discussion as well. TheDoctorWho (talk) 07:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

This takes me back to the notion of removing the parameter, but at Template:Infobox television season only. It's liable to create confusion/inconsistency there, and adds very little to season articles. U-Mos (talk) 08:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd support removing it at the season template and keeping it at the parent template, and redefining what the latter is intended for. -- Alex_21 _TALK 08:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I would also support this. It feels like a good compromise between giving clarity and information, while reducing confusion and disputes Irltoad (talk) 08:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to remove from the season infobox, we already have very limited info there and this doesn't seem to be all that key to understanding a season. - adamstom97 (talk) 14:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I've requested the parameter be removed at Template talk:Infobox television season#Template-protected edit request on 24 March 2024. U-Mos (talk) 13:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Multiple network and release perimeters

This formatting can just make infoboxes look messy. Why do we need multiple dividing perimeters? It creates clutter and it will confuse readers. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 00:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

In what way would this change on Futurama be messy? It's giving more clarification to the series' run, as the show was cancelled multiple times. The way it is now because of your revert gives the sentiment the series was never cancelled, similar to Family Guy. Just because you "seriously hate" the changes does not mean Chimatronx or I were being "disruptive". Nyescum (talk) 03:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I personally thought the new format was a great change that tidied up the infobox for shows with complicated network histories, rather than having a list of networks with dates in parentheses, and made the release date parameter much more useful for those shows. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Could the headings for those be changed though, with heads like “first network”, “original release”, “second network”, “second release”, “third release”, etc. Would that make things less confusing? BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 05:41, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not confusing though. Gonnym (talk) 06:14, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

How? It's literally terms “network” and “release” repeated over and over again. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 18:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Data is read top bottom left right. So it's not “network” and “release” repeated over and over again, but it's "network" and the network name, then "release" and the date range. Then repeat. When read like this it's very clear that for a show like Futurama, it was first released on Fox between March 28, 1999 – August 10, 2003, then released on Comedy Central between March 23, 2008 – September 4, 2013, then on Hulu between July 24, 2023 – present. I still don't see what is confusing about this. Gonnym (talk) 18:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, can there be some form of rename for them to give more context for readers? Just having them say “network” and “release” on repeat can confuse some readers, so if a certain show was cancelled and revived several times, why not for them, “original network”, “original release”, “second network”, “second release”, etc. Shows that lasted for one run can keep the “network” and “release” formatting. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 20:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

If you get consensus for that change it can happen. I personally feel that saying "second network" when it's obvious its the second is redundant. It's also probably (as it should) be explained in the article itself. Gonnym (talk) 21:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Getting @MrScorch6200: in this discussion as he was the one who thought that this change was necessary. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 22:40, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

A minor caution: if the first network is left out, as in this test case, the infobox still displays properly. Anyone attempting to code the sandbox to show "second network" or similar labels should ensure that that test case displays properly. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I thought that the change was necessary because it brings much more clarity to when and how a specific series may have aired across revival runs. Revived series are much more common now than years ago and differentiating that a series ran, say, twice on two different networks shouldn't be confusing to a reader but give them more accurate information. Most people almost always look at infoboxes and it's important that the information contained in the infobox is short yet accurate. Stating that a series like Futurama ran from 1999 - present is not accurate. The general consensus was that this change was useful and pretty well-received.

However, I do agree that some may view the change as adding clutter to the infobox. It may be helpful to discuss how we can reformat this section in the infobox to be more visually appealing and group together the information better. It could be as simple as reworking the "network" parameter and somehow including it with the "release" parameter so that, visually, the network appears next to/with the release dates (whether it would look better on the left or right is up for debate) rather than in a different section. This would group together the information and make it easier to quickly digest rather than having to look at two different lines in the infobox for information that is directly related. Someone who does a lot of syntax work should take a look at if this is feasible (perhaps @Gonnym). Scorch (talk | ctrb) 16:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

An infobox is a table, which means you are basically reading

Parameter	Value
Network	1999–present

The infobox is never meant to have both the parameter name and its data on the same side. Gonnym (talk) 17:56, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

What I mean specifically is that the network and air date for a single run may both be able to appear together in the same cell of data instead of two separate cells. Scorch (talk | ctrb) 19:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Interesting idea you have. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 05:15, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

It is common sense. The "second network" parameter could create problems such as some editors claiming a secondary network (as in just broadcast reruns) as an "original" "second network". — YoungForever^(talk) 01:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

It is another reason why I do personally believe this formatting can get some rework or get removed from the template entirely. Besides, the formatting can cause editors to add in rebroadcast networks even if this template stays as is, since the table just says "network". BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 01:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Can I suggest a simpler solution? Keep the current layout but insert a horizontal rule just before the 2nd network (and 3rd, etc). Then you get a visual cue that the multiple "network" and "release"s go together in pairs.  Dr Greg  talk  02:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see a mock-up of this as it could be a big improvement. I think the current format takes some getting used to, but I struggle to formulate a clearer display idea. — Bilorv (talk) 10:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with current format. — YoungForever^(talk) 03:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I do agree with what Greg suggested. Why do some users see multiples as not a problem is beyond me. And besides, is Wikipedia not reliable anyway? Sure this website can serve as a helpful source, but it's still a wiki where anyone can collaborate to keep in mind. This is why having more detail can make us think we are reliable but were not! I maybe just a person who have different beliefs, but just gaining more detail to something is not a good option, and besides, some have said that this wiki is filled with lies, so can we just keep a more simplified direction to make sure that edit wars are less apparent? BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 05:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

This is a bizarre comment. We shouldn't attempt to improve the infobox display because Wikipedia is full of lies? - adamstom97 (talk) 08:13, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit wars are easy to get into when editors simply think that they're right about a certain issue. After years on Wikipedia, I have learned that usually neither editor is wholly correct. Usually, and ideally, there's some middle ground for a good solution. That's how consensus generally works here, and that's why other editors love to chime in. Edit wars are a necessary evil -- that's how we have developed and applied consensus on numerous issues.

The reliability of Wikipedia has no bearing on this change or improvement. We're simply talking about

better-displaying information that we already know to be verifiable, we are not contesting the validity of the information. There's no dispute that Futurama was cancelled and revived. The infobox should display that fact. That information is already included in the article itself and the recent change to the infobox simply made the display of revived series' runs more uniform and clear across the encyclopedia. You're always welcome to restart a discussion on this.

However, I believe that you have a valid point that the current format may appear as cumbersome on some pages. Yet, this is only a very, very small amount of pages that are affected and in the grand scheme of things isn't a huge deal. Still, the format may be able to be improved but I don't think other editors are as pressed about it. Scorch (talk | ctrb) 16:12, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I do apologize about the ramble. It's just that some users have a different mindset compared to me, though I do still believe that the formatting can be improved, as long as consensus is involved. I'm not trying to harass anyone over this, and try being in good faith. But it can be difficult sometimes if what you see as an improvement will be disagreed by others. It's hard to handle with, and since Wikipedia is very popular on the internet, I do believe an improvement has to be made, as long as most users are comfortable with the change. As of now, it may depend when this formatting issue will be improved, which I do hope will happen. Just not right now, but someday it will… BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 04:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@Dr Greg and Bilorv: See here for an example of horizontal rules added. Should there get support for this, I'm not thrilled with how I coded it in the sandbox, so we'd have to explore that aspect. But this is your visual representation for the time being. I don't hate this and thing this would be helpful myself. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what I meant, and I like it.  Dr Greg  talk  17:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I think this is significantly clearer—thanks for the mock-up! — Bilorv (talk) 17:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I haven't been as active at the moment, but I'll see about reworking the code when I have the chance. Gonnym if you have a moment (no rush) and want to see what I did in the sandbox and any thoughts to make that cleaner/better implemented, be my guest. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I do support this as an improvement, as shows can get cancelled but revived suddenly all the time. Though maybe to reflect the change, maybe add an "s" next to the original release text so the runs can get differentiated. However, some shows that had been cancelled but revived still happen to air on the same network it was originally on like Family Guy and The Fairly OddParents, so for those shows a different format might be needed for them. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 00:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I've added another test case for the sandbox to illustrate this case: Template:Infobox television/testcases#Without second network but with second release date  Dr Greg  talk  01:57, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay, but I would like to have readers get more context for the "Release" table, like with adding in names like "First run release" and "Second run release". This is to make more of a distinction between an original run and revival run on one original network. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

There is currently no consensus for that as the current format naming is of no issue. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

We can wait to hear what others think though, if they support or oppose. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 22:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Code updated to account for Dr Greg's new test case. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

The current code is misusing a data cell to add no data at all. That is not valid usage. I'll give it a look this week and see how to add a line without misusing table syntax. Gonnym (talk) 16:16, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I was looking at the {{Infobox}} documentation that uses dashed lines in their example as a way to possibly do this and that used a data cell so tried replicating it here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't really like the last changes by @Favre1fan93 on 27 Feb, because now we have a subsection with no network, which seems confusing: the show apparently just spontaneously released itself without any network. I would prefer it if that change were undone, but instead, when there's a release date with no corresponding network (implying the same network as the last), you just omit the label "Release" from the left-hand column. So you get two (or more) release-date-ranges with a single "Release" label to cover both of them.  Dr Greg  talk  22:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I've explained above, the infobox is a basically a table. A table needs to be accessible to readers using assisted technology. As far as I'm aware (and feel free to correct me with an example), there is no way to have a rowspan inside an infobox, meaning that we can't say "network1 is for both release_date1 and release_date2". That means that we can't do what you are asking for. Gonnym (talk) 11:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation; I understand and accept the point you are making. I suppose, then, in these circumstances, you could put both {{{release_date1}}} and {{{release_date2}}} in the same cell, although the coding to achieve that might be more difficult, and maybe not worth the effort.  Dr Greg  talk  12:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I support Favre1fan93's testcase version. — YoungForever^(talk) 03:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Gonnym: the problem I felt with doing this, was visually, the hr does not span the entirety of the infobox, which I think is a better visual indication than just under the dates as is happening now. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:35, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe @Izno might be able to help here. Do you know how to visually create a hr without using an empty data cell to hold no data? Gonnym (talk) 08:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I know {{infobox settlement}} has horizontal lines within it: see Template:Infobox settlement/doc#Examples, you might be able to work out how it's done there.  Dr Greg  talk  17:39, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Assign a class to the table cell of interest, then it should just be adding border-bottom in the TemplateStyles for elements with that class. Izno (talk) 18:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, just checked. You can add the class to the row of interest and then target it with e.g. .ib-tv-netrelease.infobox-data. I thought about providing a cleaner way for giving specific cells classes when I did the initial TemplateStyles work but that's not available today and you can hack around it even so. Izno (talk) 18:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

@Izno can you look at what I did wrong with the css? I can't make it a full width line. Gonnym (talk) 11:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I've adjusted the CSS. There is probably a bit more work to play around with. Izno (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Izno your edit is something I got to work but it isn't what Favre and Dr Greg asked for. They want a line the full width of the infobox (label and data), not just under the date (data). Is that possible? Gonnym (talk) 18:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

You can add "another" line with .ib-tv-network-release .infobox-label. The two borders won't be contiguous. If you want the lines to be connected, then you need to set border-collapse: collapse on the whole infobox and then add some marginal padding back for the cells. That's what lines 4 and 12 do in the infobox settlement styles. Izno (talk) 18:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Does adding the border-collapse cause any accessibility issues or is that fine to use? Gonnym (talk) 20:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

No. It just decides whether each table cell has its own border or if two neighboring cells share a border. MDN has a pretty simple illustration to understand.

(At some point, we'll get rid of the border collapse and add paddings at the global level, whenever we transition to divs in infoboxes.) Izno (talk) 22:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for all the help Izno! @Favre1fan93 @Dr Greg is this style what you wanted? Gonnym (talk) 06:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Note that the above and header sections (the ones colored in purple) have lost their margins and I can't seem to modify that. So unless someone can do it, you'll have to choose between the pros and the cons of this style change. Gonnym (talk) 12:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Thanks.  Dr Greg  talk  12:19, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Looks as intended, though I don't know if this change is worth having the above and headers lose their margins. If you look at the first example in the test cases under "Multiple release dates", it does appear that there is more overall padding between each parameter. Personally, I don't think those changes are worth it to implement this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:24, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

CSS isn't my strong side so if anyone can fix it, feel free to try. Gonnym (talk) 06:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I mean, Wikipedia likes having detail, though having the "release" template say the same word multiple times without indication still bothers me, and I do like to have some differentiation, as I had stated before. Again though, consensus is needed so I do need some editors to say their thoughts on this situation. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alex 21: any chance you could possibly have any better luck formatting the CSS for this? Basically the goal is to see what a line delineation between the various |release#= parameters would look like. Izno above guided Gonnym to what classes and such should be looked at to do this, but in doing so, it did alter the existing margins and spacing of the template. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I've taken a read through this discussion and added it to my watchlist; I can certainly take a look into it, but I may not be able to do anything until the weekend. -- Alex_21 _TALK 20:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, no rush, thanks! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Keeping the margins is not possible with this approach naively. You can readd them by adding divs to each cell, but that's... a hack. The tradeoff here would not be at issue with a future change to infobox that's... a few years away still. Izno (talk) 22:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Made a few adjustments, take a look at Template:Infobox television/testcases#Multiple release dates (you may need to clear your cache). Thoughts? -- Alex_21 _TALK 04:46, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

The margins between label names (see country of origin and language) is huge at the moment. Is this fixable? Gonnym (talk) 06:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Done, too much excessive padding on the cells themselves. -- Alex_21 _TALK 06:53, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Alex 21! Any hope for some more left margin padding? I think, visually, that's the only thing my eye is feeling is not quite right / feeling a bit cramped with the parameter labels so close to the infobox border. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:49, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Done, further padding added to the side of the table as a whole. -- Alex_21 _TALK 22:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Looks good, good work Alex. Gonnym (talk) 07:07, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes agree. With the visual elements of the previous styling retained by implementing this new change, I'm fine if we want to proceed with this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I think we can proceed with implementing this unless there are any further objections. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:15, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done -- Alex_21 _TALK 11:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)