User talk:Andrewa/archive9

This is an archive page, please don't update it. All new discussion should go in user talk:andrewa. Andrewa (talk) 16:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Wiki FAQs

Hi Andrew. I was thrilled to see your contributions on FAQ Farm (aka Wiki FAQs) the other day. Not all our FAQ Farmers are thoughtful and well-spoken, unfortunately, so I'm always happy to see Wikipedian-quality participants. Let me know anytime you have suggestions, criticisms, or questions about the site. I'm constantly working on making the site better.

Chris Whitten, FAQ Farm Webmaster.

Wikiversity

I saw your name on the Wikiversity participant's list, you may be very experienced in mathematics already, but I'm trying out instructing a Calculus course if you're interested, go to Wikiveristy, check out the mathematics department, pure mathematics, and in the course list is included Calculus. Fephisto 22:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/School_of_Mathematics:Calculus. Looks interesting. Andrewa 13:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Invite

You are cordially invited to participate in WikiProject Christianity The goal of WikiProject Christianity is to improve the quality and quantity of information about Christianity available on Wikipedia. WP:X as a group does not prefer any particular tradition or denominination of Christianity, but prefers that all Christian traditions are fairly and accurately represented.

--WillMak050389 19:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to invite all the Christian Wikipedians to WikiProject Christianity because it said to spread the word. This is considered spamming though, so it was removed from your page. If you care to join, the link above should work and you can help Wikipedia expand the Christian articles. See the page for complete details. Thank you for inquiring. --WillMak050389 03:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting! Thanks for the invitation.

Of course this wasn't ever spam, and its deletion was censorship. But hey, remember we're the good guys! We must be prepared to put up with injustices like this.

And of course the Jason Gastrich disaster didn't help. Andrewa 00:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to thank you so very much for your comments on my talk page about my "internal spamming". Though I realize (yeah, I'm American) I maybe should have not invited every Christian on Wikipedia and limited my invitations to those who have taken a large interest in Christian-related articles, I believe that the attack by others was too harsh. We Wikipedians that hold tight to our beliefs need to stick together and have the will power to ignore those that choose to attack us. I hope to be talking to you again, and thank you for your comments.
I also would like to award you this well-deserved accolade. (I'm giving it to you here because I didn't know where you keep your awards.) --WillMak050389 16:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

For being there and having the power to stand up with me against those who are opposed to our beliefs. --WillMak050389 16:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'll have to think about that. It's the first award I've ever received. Thank you, it's appreciated. Andrewa 02:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Solar updraft tower

I noticed that you have made a number of constructive contributions to Solar chimney in the past. That article has been cut/pasted/reassembled/morphed/transmogrified into Solar updraft tower. I have been trying to put in an unbiased assesment of its strengths and weaknesses. The problem I am facing now is that the article has been totally revamped by an editor from Australia, most likely somebody who is on the payroll of EnviroMission, and who has pretty much edited out anything that is even remotely critical of EnviroMission's POV. It now pretty much reads like a brochure of EnviroMission. For comparison you may want to have a look at my Revison as of 23:11, 7 July 2006 to see what is going on. Going back in the history of that article reveals that this kind of stuff has been going on before, and that you were one of the people who tried to counter it.
I intend to revert it to a more unbiased POV once the guy is gone, but I would be very appreciative of any support I can get for that endeavour. Specifically I noticed that some time in the remote past you put in the following paragraph:

This principle has been proposed for power generation, using a large greenhouse at the base rather than relying on heating of the chimney itself. The main problem with this approach is the relatively small difference in temperature between the highest and lowest temperatures in the system. Carnot's theorem greatly restricts the efficiency of conversion in these circumstances.

This paragraph is one of things that went by the wayside recently. I actually engaged the guy in a dicussion of that issue; see Talk:Solar updraft tower#Carnot engine. Anyway, I hope that you are interested to put the page on your watch list, and monitor what is going on. JdH 19:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to make Solar tower a disambiguation page

We are having a bit of a discussion about a possible name change of the Solar tower, see Proposal to make Solar tower a disambiguation page. Your input would be appreciated. JdH 17:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

You have mail

at missiontechwiki (once I've written it).

Image:Spkrdinplug.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Spkrdinplug.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. This is becuase I have uploaded a clearer image of speaker DIN plugs, Image:Speaker din male and female.jpg. Please look there (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. boffy_b 00:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Support this deletion. Thanks for the better image, and the heads-up on it. Andrewa 14:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I reverted your talk page

Just leaving you a note to explain why I reverted your talk page: the text I removed was a spurious/vexatious request from User:HotHotSoup, the latest sockpuppet of User:PoolGuy, spamming the talk pages of admins (and a few non-admins), and apparently working alphabetically. Contributions of a banned user may be reverted by anyone, but if you would still like the message to be included here, feel free to revert back. Stifle (talk) 17:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

No problems, and thanks for the heads-up. I have no objection to your reverting edits by banned users. Thanks also for the effort you are putting into this. Andrewa 13:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Creed

I have linked to your creed from my userpage; well done. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Research Survey Request

Hello, I am a member of a research group at Palo Alto Research Center (formerly known as Xerox PARC) studying how conflicts occur and resolve on Wikipedia. Due to your experience in conflict identification and resolution on Wikipedia as an administrator we’re extremely interested in your insights on this topic. We have a survey at http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=201962477432 which we are inviting a few selected Wikipedians to participate in, and we would be extremely appreciative if you would take the time to complete it. As a token of our gratitude, we would like to present you with a PARC research star upon completion. Thank you for your time.

Parc wiki researcher 01:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
PARC User Interface Research Group

I have restored this edit quite deliberately. There seems nothing in Wikipedia policy to justify its removal. Perhaps there should be, but there isn't. Andrewa 07:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Pale

Hi, thanks for doing the Pale move. Is there a reason why you didn't also move Talk:Pale to Talk:The Pale??--Srleffler 03:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It didn't seem necessary to me, or even a good idea. The various talk pages all have significant page histories. I didn't move Talk:Pale (jurisdiction) either.

The significance of the history of a talk page is completely different to that of an article. With articles, we're primarily interested in complying with the GFDL. With a talk page, we don't normally need the history for GFDL compliance, as the contents are already signed. What the history still gives us is an assurance that the signatures and timestamps are accurate.

Similarly, the contents of talk pages don't have the same significance as those of articles. The important thing with an article is the coherent final product. With a talk page it's more being able to follow the strings of discussion.

I felt that it was more confusing to move the pages than to leave them as are. If you find the current setup confusing, my suggestion is just to add explanatory comments to the relevant talk pages. Of course, that isn't an option with an article. There's also less problem with putting pointers to relevant section of the other page, or even cut and paste moves. But looking at the existing contents of the tslk pages, I didn't feel these were necessary anyway. The aim should be, make what has happened obvious to future readers, so they don't need to reinvent the wheel. If a move would help with this, then it's worth the trouble.

Do you think the talk pages should be moved? Why? Andrewa 06:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It seemed less confusing to me to keep the talk pages with the articles they related to. Having the talk page from what is now The Pale remain with the article at Pale (which was formerly (Pale (jurisdiction)) just seems confusing. Instead, I archived the former talk page from The Pale at Talk:The Pale/Archive 1 and made appropriate links, so both articles end up with a mostly-fresh talk page, rather than a talk page full of discussion about a different article.--Srleffler 06:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Thanks for the heads-up, but I don't recall editing that page, nor do I see myself in the history -- are you sure I'm the person you meant to notify? Regards — Dan | talk 07:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, right. Well, I still don't remember it, and I have no particular opinion on the issue, so long as the related articles end up consistent (either all capitalized or all not). Again, thanks anyway for the notification. — Dan | talk 20:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, how odd -- apparently someone moved it and I moved it back. It seems (judging by conversation on the talk page) I was mistaken about it being properly capitalized as a title. No matter; I'm sure it will end up in the right place this time. — Dan | talk 21:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Nuclear power as a renewable energy source

Have you been following Talk:Renewable energy? I don't have time to keep up this fight against the people who want to remove all mention of it from the article. See my post on the Village pump. — Omegatron 21:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, this particular debate will continue in Wikipedia for some time! Thanks for your input.

Sigh. I wish it didn't...

I haven't been monitoring these particular articles lately,

I know. I've been accused of leading a one-man crusade to maintain the consensus from last year, since everyone else left.

and suggest that if you do (and I hope you will), you take Wikibreaks from them from time to time, and contribute less controversial stuff. This will help your own perspective and motivation.

I did, along with others. The section is now being deleted by every well-meaning newcomer who swings by, not understanding that it's not our place to define terms and make decisions; just to report on the debate.

Can you comment on Talk:Renewable_energy#Nuclear_energy_debate? — Omegatron 13:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. Andrewa 15:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I should probably take your advice and just drop it. But I know it will be removed as soon as someone isn't looking, and it really belongs in the article, as several people agreed a while ago. But they all stopped paying attention to it, so maybe I should give up, too.  :-/ — Omegatron 16:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

nnnn nnnn Hang in there. Andrewa 16:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

requested move

Hi there, thanks for intervening in the University of Wisconsin discussion. It seems that the debate has come to an end. Could you please move the article to its unambiguous name University of Wisconsin-Madison? From the long discussion, I can see that creating a disambig page for University of Wisconsin is acceptable to most editors there. Thanks. Miaers 19:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:University of Wisconsin#Proposed move - Resolution. No objections yet. Assuming there are none within 24 hours of my posting that proposal, it will be done. Andrewa 05:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, this is to remind you that there has been no objections about the proposal and it is now ready for you to make relevant changes. Miaers 15:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The move of University of Wisconsin-Madison has broken the links on a whole bunch of templates. I see that you included %20 for space and such - is it possible to fix the page to properly be the page University_of_Wisconsin-Madison? • master_son^{Lets talk} 12:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you be specific as to what templates are now broken?

I think you may be mistaken about the %20. Possibly, the problem is the dash. Andrewa 22:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• {{University of Wisconsin}}
• {{Big Ten Conference}}
• {{Western Collegiate Hockey Association}}
• {{Committee on Institutional Cooperation}}
• {{Worldwide Universities Network}}
• {{Association of American Universities}}

(i tried to fix one, but the others don't follow yet.)

Actually if you visit any of the pages on {{University of Wisconsin}}, you will find that the sattelite universities use a hyphen. You used an "em dash" which is an odd character in urls. and it is also not consistent with the sattelite universities.

Just rename the page as University of Wisconsin-Madison to fix it.--• master_son^{Lets talk} 22:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately just rename would lose significant history. But I think it's fixed now. Andrewa 01:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The templates now work good. The templates were pointed to the disambig as were some 1200 other articles in Wikipedia. Luckily I have AWB rights, so I went through all but 900 and change of them and corrected the links so that the assumption is made. It might be a good idea to put a disambiguation tag on the page (but just a suggestion...)

Please sign your posts on talk pages.

I'm a bit skeptical that the change you've made is correct in 900 cases. Better if in any doubt to have them point to the disambiguation page... which is already tagged as such.

If you mean we should have a disambiguation tag on the unambiguously named University of Wisconsin System or University of Wisconsin-Madison articles, then I don't agree.

The see also tag at the top of one of them is IMO not very helpful, although not harmful enough that I'd remove it. The article itself should contain sufficient information and wikilinks to enable navigation, which is far better than a link that says see also but doesn't give any idea of why you should see also. If you can think of a better tag, please add it! Andrewa 03:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Jack Straw (politician) move

Why no consensus on this Requested move? There were four Oppose votes and six Support votes. Philip Stevens 13:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

That's not any sort of consensus. If any one person had changed their vote, it would be a deadlock, even numerically. Andrewa 20:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• What majority does it take to be a consensus? Philip Stevens 05:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not that simple. There was a rejected policy proposal that it be 60%, see Wikipedia:Supermajority, but in the end the existing policy that Wikipedia is not a Democracy was upheld. The 60% figure would be achieved... just... by counting your vote as proposer. I suppose I could have voted against it to decide the issue, but I didn't feel it necessary.

Do you feel that consensus has been achieved? Have you asked any of the opponents to reconsider their views? Andrewa 20:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to WikiProject Guitarists!

Hi!, thanks for signing up. We are dedicated to improving all guitarist articles, including bass guitarists and all genres. We also work on guitar equipment articles. Check out our main project page and see the to-do list for places to get started. Welcome! Anger22 22:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Organ pipe, Organ stop and Pipe organ

Hi Andrew,

I have just been looking into the Pipe organ and surrounding articles, and I think that the article you created at Organ pipe is almost redundant thanks to the great deal of work that has improved the Pipe organ page, which seems to now supercede your article. How do you feel about merging Organ pipe back into Pipe organ? I feel that a more specific article should contain more specific information. I don't think this one does any more! Would you take a look and give me your opinion? I'd be interested to see what you think of the Organ stop page, which isn't as good as it could be.

Many thanks,

Mdcollins1984 13:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. I haven't had a lot of time for this lately, but I'll have a look. I've no opposition to the merge in theory. Andrewa 19:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Reverts of de-wikifying

Why did you undo my de-wikifying of the History of UW Milwaukee article? The guidelines seem pretty clear, that we should not have multiple instances of the same link in the same article, such as the multiple Milwaukee links you put back in. --Orange Mike 03:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't intend to revert any of your edits and don't think I did. What I reverted was the deletion of content from the intro by another user. Your edit was a minor (and correct) revision of this minimal introduction; I didn't think it was applicable to the old intro. I actually went back to one of 'your' versions (remembering that we don't really own anything here). See the talk page. Andrewa 03:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I just removed the excess wikilinks; restored the specific meaning of "socialist" re: Zeidler (and stipulated that he was Milwaukee's mayor, for those who don't know the name); and put all the timeline entries into present tense, as is customary (some were present tense, some past). I hope this is satisfactory. --Orange Mike 03:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Sorry to make you do some of it twice! Andrewa 09:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Afd Request

Hi there,

Would you mind taking a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bryan_Brandenburg

It needs more input from seasoned editors.

Thank you, Linux monster 00:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for stopping by

It looks like a good decision was made. I plan on making regular contributions so I'll see you around. Wikipedia is a tremendous resource.

Thanks,

Linux monster 22:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Tango TV

The new name of the Luxembourgish television channel is T.TV. I can't move it to T.TV because there's a redirect. The Lithuanian television channel is now the only station called Tango TV. It should be moved to Tango TV. --Franc000 16:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds logical. Thanks for the heads-up. My reply is at Talk:Tango TV#Where to now. Andrewa 19:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

ECW Championship

Part of the reason there was no opposition was that it was never mentioned at WP:PW, is there a version of the deletion review for moved pages? The article should be moved back and the members of WP:PW should be told about the move request. TJ Spyke 07:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Disagree that the article should be moved back. A Wikiproject is just another colaboration tool. If other editors decide not to consult the Wikiproject and the Wikiproject members don't notice what is happening, the processes just go ahead without them. In hindsight I should have raised it at the Wikiproject, but that's done now.

Yes, there's a review mechanism, which is simply to list a reversal of the move on WP:RM.

My suggestion is that you discuss it on the talk page first. Quick relistings often attract a certain amount of opposition unless there's a consensus of several editors established on the talk page first.

You might also consider making better use of the watchlist facility to prevent this sort of thing happening again. Andrewa 22:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

New AfD on LoPbN

You supported retention of the LoPbN tree a couple of years ago. At this moment, vote is 8D to 3K on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of people by name (2nd nomination). I assume your views are unchanged, and would appreciate your weighing in again. Thanks in any case, and happy holidays
--Jerzy•t 09:20 & 09:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Jesus

I recently found that the Jesus article on Wikipedia is the first item that comes up when you search for "Jesus" on the world’s most widely used search engine, Google.

Please edit the Jesus article to make it an accurate and excellent representation of Him.

The Jesus article may be a person’s first impression of Jesus. It would be nice if their first impression was from a Christian or the Bible, but for so many in these new days it probably comes from the Internet. Watch the Jesus page to keep it focused on Him. Thanks a lot.

Also, watch out to follow Wikipedia's Policies and guidelines. It is especially hard for the Three-revert rule and the Neutral point of view policy to be followed because of the nature of the article, but please follow these policies along with citing sources so that the article does not get locked from editing and can't be improved further. Thanks again. Scifiintel 17:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

University of Wisconsin

Hi Andrewa, User:Dekimasu made dramatic changes on University of Wisconsin without any regards to the previous discussions. University of Wisconsin is shared by more a dozen universities. It shouldn't direct to UW-Madison. I think it is better to change it back. What's your opinion on this? Miaers 18:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I've listed it at WP:RM to get a formal proposal going. In hindsight, perhaps I should have done this back at Talk:University of Wisconsin/Archive 2#Proposed move - Resolution. Ah well! Andrewa 22:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/January 2007/Pajaro4

Hi. It's been suggested I get in touch with you regarding the case of Italian Bellotti Cymbals. Would you be able to take a look at the article and leave a comment on the talk page. Regards. SilkTork 00:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

AfD Nomination: University of Wisconsin (disambiguation)

An editor has nominated the article University of Wisconsin (disambiguation) for deletion, under the Articles for deletion process. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the nomination (also see What Wikipedia is not and Deletion policy). Your opinions on why the topic of the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome: participate in the discussion by editing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/University of Wisconsin (disambiguation). Add four tildes like this ~~~~ to sign your comments. You can also edit the article University of Wisconsin (disambiguation) during the discussion, but do not remove the "Articles for Deletion" template (the box at the top of the article), this will not end the deletion debate. Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. Jayden54Bot 20:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:Lg seca ohne.gif)

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University of Wisconsin (disambiguation)

I have asked for a deletion review of University of Wisconsin (disambiguation). You might want to participate. --Orange Mike 03:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Natural History of South Asia mailing list

This article is up for deletion can you kindly share your opinion on it [1] .

Thanks in advance Atulsnischal 22:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ciudad Real Torre Solar

I would appreciate it if you went down to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ciudad Real Torre Solar and give your opinion about this AfD. Thanks, JdH 13:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Peano axioms up for A-class rating

Hi Andrew. The mathematics WikiProject has set up a process to grant articles that deserve it an A-class rating at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics/A-class rating. Recently, our article on the Peano axioms was nominated. Unfortunately, there are no comments from anybody who really knows logic, so I was hoping that you could have a look at the article, see whether there is anything there that would embarrass us, and leave a comment on Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics/A-class rating/Peano axioms. Thanks. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 08:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

rickenbacher

i notice you left a note on the adolph rickenbacker page. he changed his name later than ww1. if you notice the early guitars say it with a bh. eddie rickenbacker change his name during ww1, then became famous. they were cousins and both grew up in columbus ohio. so to help himself he changed his name to the bk version, so people would associate it with eddie. oh and he died in april of 1974. his wife died in 1969. she was the hier to the union 76 fortune. adolph is my great grandfathers brother. my uncle, who is still alive used to live with him when he moved to california. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.43.152.235 (talk) 23:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Jimbo is coming to Sydney

Sorry to spam you if you aren't interested. See Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney#April 25th for more info if you are interested. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Straw polls MfD

Greetings, as one of the editors who originally helped develop this page into a guideline I thought you should be aware of the MfD about it. Thanks. (→Netscott) 02:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Mathematics CotW

hey Andrew, I am writing you to let you know that the Mathematics Collaboration of the week(soon to "of the month") is getting an overhaul of sorts and I would encourage you to participate in whatever way you can, i.e. nominate an article, contribute to an article, or sign up to be part of the project. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks--Cronholm144 17:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Other creeds

Hi. I like your creed. Can you point me to others? Also, are there any sources/texts that inspired you? Thanks muchly, HG | Talk 18:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Please let me know if you think of anything similar in WP. HG | Talk 18:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Enid Blyton Bible Stories.jpg

Hello, Andrewa. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Enid Blyton Bible Stories.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Andrewa/Enid Blyton. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 02:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ooops...! Done... and a couple of others too. Andrewa 03:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:How to Lie with Statistics.jpg

Hello, Andrewa. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:How to Lie with Statistics.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Andrewa/miscellaneous sources. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 08:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

ChemDraw

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on ChemDraw, by Simul8 (talk · contribs), another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because ChemDraw fits the criteria for speedy deletion for the following reason:

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To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting ChemDraw, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. --Android Mouse Bot 2 16:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:MUSINST Newsletter!

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For the WP:MUSINST newsletter - NDCompuGeek 19:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:Quasiturbine mechanisms.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Quasiturbine mechanisms.jpg. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:

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More replaceable fair use images

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Songwriters

Hello Andrews, I am categorizing the musicians from my country Cyprus and since you are a member of wikiproject Music, I would like to ask you something. When someone who is considered composer can be considered songwriter and when not? When someone who is considered lyricist can be considered songwriter and when not? If you know I will appreciate if you answer.--KRBN 21:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey Joe

Are you going to make a disambiguation page? Its a dead link otherwise?--Xiahou 03:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes...! Andrewa 03:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for intervening at the Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism by U.S intelligence article, I have no expertise in starting a poll and do not think I am the best person to do it. Would you mind setting up one? How do we invite people to vote? I know that vote stacking or canvasing is against the policy. Please advice. NëŧΜǒńğer^{Peace Talks} 17:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for starting the poll, I have responded. NëŧΜǒńğer^{Peace Talks} 20:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Challenge

I respectfully draw your attention to my recent comments at horse slaughter, whose title change you opposed. BrainyBabe 16:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Artisan_275365.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Artisan_275365.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. MER-C 10:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

your vote at Isarco-Eisack

Hi, you probably need to read the consensus that was found at Communes of South Tyrol before making a final opinion. The criteria was 1) clear English usage 2) majority language spoken. We find no clear solution for 1) so we go to 2). Markussep originally listed the villages/towns along this river and posted their language-spoken percentages (from a census). I took those percentages and multiplied by the number of people in order to actually be able to add them correctly. That is where I found 20,000 more Italian-speakers, and therefore a necessity to move the page to satisfy the criteria. Icsunonove 17:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I see no consensus there, and still see no necessity for the move. Andrewa 17:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, look, I've explained how the system they developed works. I don't agree with it, but I do feel it should be applied rigorously. Not to mention other facts as the river actually being in.. well, Italy. Icsunonove 17:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

There's been a lot of discussion. I'm sorry I can't make you happy by saying Yes, I agree, but I don't. I think that a case can be made either way, and that being the case, it doesn't matter a lot which way the article is named. So I don't agree with your idea that there's a necessity at all. I do however agree strongly with the consensus that does exist that the hyphenated article name that you used in the heading of this section should not be used. And that means we need to use one of the common names. Andrewa 18:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

See, I do not care if you agree or disagree, but I do care that people helping us with a decision to move or not move be actually informed. If you don't agree there is a "necessity", then what, the page should have no location, or be deleted? There of course must be a reason to have the German Eisack instead of Italian Isarco or vise versa. It seems one would have to make a strong argument instead to why the page is at a German name, while the river is in its entirety in Italy. Whatever.. Icsunonove 19:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I've actually been following the South Tyrol naming debates for some time. I don't think there's a lot of point in repeating them here. No, I still don't think there's any necessity either way. Andrewa 20:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Guitarists newsletter

The WikiProject Guitarists Newsletter Issue III - July 2007
Project news Hey everyone! It's been quite a while since the last newsletter went out but it's time to tune up those guitars, set the amps to 11, and rock out a bit. Or for us old guys, put on the fingerpicks and set the amp to 3. A lot of people have been laboring away at guitar articles and their efforts are to be applauded. If you haven't edited in a while, why not pick an article from Category:Stub-Class guitarist articles and expand it? Or better yet, pick one from the article requests and create it. More tasks can be found on the main project page in the WikiProject Guitarists open tasks box. I went through the member list and moved anyone who hasn't edited a guitar article in two months to the inactive section. If you're getting this newsletter, it means you are still in the active list. See you around --Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 21:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)	Volunteers needed The Guitar equipment task force needs editors to work on guitar equipment articles. Many articles for guitar manufacturers, guitar models, amps, and effects are basically one-sentence stubs or written like advertisements. If you're interested in this type of article, visit the task force page to sign up and browse Category:Guitar equipment task force articles for things to work on. If you are interested in assessing guitarist articles, please see the assessment department. At one time, we had it cleared out, but there are now a lot of articles in Category:Unassessed guitarist articles.
To stop receiving this newsletter, please list yourself here.

G5700_xl-1c173563fe67c393dee23bbc65dc08e3.jpg

I have tagged Image:G5700_xl-1c173563fe67c393dee23bbc65dc08e3.jpg as {{replaceable fair use}}. If you wish to dispute this assertion, please add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} to the image description page and a comment explaining your reasoning to the the image talk page. Rettetast 15:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Gibson_Dobro.gif

I have tagged Image:Gibson_Dobro.gif as {{replaceable fair use}}. If you wish to dispute this assertion, please add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} to the image description page and a comment explaining your reasoning to the the image talk page. Rettetast 10:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Bass_VI_string_pack.jpg

I have tagged Image:Bass_VI_string_pack.jpg as {{no rationale}}, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Wikipedia policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Please also consider using {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. Thank you. MER-C 11:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Weissenborn_lmfront.jpg

I have tagged Image:Weissenborn_lmfront.jpg as {{no rationale}}, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Wikipedia policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Please also consider using {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. Thank you. ElinorD (talk) 16:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:Weissenborn_lmfront.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Weissenborn_lmfront.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Image:Weissenborn_teardrop.jpg

I have tagged Image:Weissenborn_teardrop.jpg as {{no rationale}}, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Wikipedia policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Please also consider using {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. Thank you. ElinorD (talk) 16:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Weissenborn_teardrop.jpg

I have tagged Image:Weissenborn_teardrop.jpg as {{orphaned fairuse}}. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. If this image is being used as a link target instead of displayed inline, please add {{not orphan}} to the image description page to prevent it being accidentally marked as orphaned again. ElinorD (talk) 16:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Weissenborn_celtic_cross_prototype.jpg

I have tagged Image:Weissenborn_celtic_cross_prototype.jpg as {{no rationale}}, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Wikipedia policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Please also consider using {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. Thank you. ElinorD (talk) 16:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Weissenborn_celtic_cross_prototype.jpg

I have tagged Image:Weissenborn_celtic_cross_prototype.jpg as {{orphaned fairuse}}. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. If this image is being used as a link target instead of displayed inline, please add {{not orphan}} to the image description page to prevent it being accidentally marked as orphaned again. ElinorD (talk) 16:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Weissenborn_lmside.jpg

I have tagged Image:Weissenborn_lmside.jpg as {{no rationale}}, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Wikipedia policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Please also consider using {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. Thank you. ElinorD (talk) 16:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Elderly_LM-GLDB_front.jpg

I have tagged Image:Elderly_LM-GLDB_front.jpg as {{no rationale}}, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Wikipedia policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Please also consider using {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. Thank you. ElinorD (talk) 16:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Elderly_LM-GLDB_front.jpg

I have tagged Image:Elderly_LM-GLDB_front.jpg as {{orphaned fairuse}}. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. If this image is being used as a link target instead of displayed inline, please add {{not orphan}} to the image description page to prevent it being accidentally marked as orphaned again. ElinorD (talk) 16:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Franklin (historic U.S. state)

This had the same text as Talk:State of Franklin. There is no need to keep two copies. Since the article is now State of Franklin (per the discussion on its talk page), I deleted the extra talk page. Ground Zero | t 18:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Whoa. How did I do that? My apologies. I have fixed it now. Thanks for catching my mistake. Regards, Ground Zero | t 18:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Stray mouse click?

Please take a look at the bottom in this change: [2]. I often see this kind of edits. I always thought it is kinda novice testing. But since you are hardly novice, I suspect thete is an artifact of wiki engine. Can you recall what you actions could have produced this piece of edit? `'Míkka 15:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

As you say, an artifact. I've somehow clicked on a button on the toolbar above the edit window. This often happens when the system is under stress, but obviously this time I didn't notice, and saved the result. I think this sort of artifact is more likely to be that sort of error, rather than novice testing. I've corrected a few of them myself, thanks for fixing this one. Andrewa 20:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Fender Wikiproject Proposal

Hi, I have proposed a new Wikiproject for Fender. If you are interested, please add you name here. Izzy007 Talk 21:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Here is the project page.Izzy007 Talk 23:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Libyan Airways

Hi,

Please check out my response, Talk:Libyan Airways,

Thank you Jaw101ie 12:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Porous cities

An {{afd}} tag has been placed on Porous cities, requesting that it be deleted from Wikipedia. All Wikipedians can join the debate at Articles for deletion, where articles asserted to be inappropriate to Wikipedia are discussed. You are encouraged to submit your opinion, and remember that Articles for Deletion debates are not a vote. You can also leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the deletion tag yourself, but don't feel inhibited from editing the article, particularly if doing so makes it clear that it is a useful contribution to an encyclopaedia. John Vandenberg 13:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Panic alarm move

I just wanted to say thanks. Yeah, it probably wasn't controversial, but I didn't feel I had enough edit history to do anything like that without going through the hoops. Still learning policy and procedure so I figured the long road was the best road. Thanks a bunch! LadyAngel89 20:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Halifax

Hi, sorry about the misunderstanding about Talk:Halifax, West Yorkshire#Requested move. While the two issues are separate, the shambolic state of the Halifax, Nova Scotia situation seems to have precipitated the requested move of Halifax, West Yorkshire. What a mess! --RFBailey 01:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank god for you, too, sir. It has been a long three years. The political iron is still HOT here in Halifax, people still are inflamed with passion. It is frustrating as heck. I personally think that part of the problem is that what the common usage and official usages are have been changing and evolving, and a lot of the people editing that article don't seem to accept that the situation has changed, but further, if we got the article totally "right" that the steady press of time would make that article out of date, in months and years, not decades! It will be very interesting to see how this pans out. Thanks for worrying about good wiki! WayeMason 16:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Halifax

I've attempted to make a first draft of a new Halifax, Nova Scotia article, in my userspace here. It's in a very rough-and-ready form, and needs a lot of tidying, sorting, and being made consistent, as well as a proper opening, before it's ready. But it should give an idea as to what I believe that article should contain. Your thoughts would be appreciated! Thanks, --RFBailey 17:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Facebook about to be deleted

Hi, as one of the people with a picture on Wikipedia:Facebook, figured you might be interested in knowing that it is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Images of Wikipedians (2nd nomination). - Ta bu shi da yu 02:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! Andrewa (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Classification of admins

Hi Andrewa. Please consider adding your admin username to the growing list at Classification of admins. Best! -- Jreferee t/c 22:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Gilaki

Modified the move request at Talk:Gileki language per your suggestion. "Guilak" is equally unheard of so I hadn't even searched for it. Thanks. — AjaxSmack 04:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Guitarists notice

Just letting you know that you have been placed on the inactive list of WikiProject Guitarists members. If you'd like to get involved again - that'd be great! Feel free to move your name back to the active list, and we'll see you back in the studio. Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 17:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Mandobird_4.jpg

I have tagged Image:Mandobird_4.jpg as {{replaceable fair use}}. If you wish to dispute this assertion, please add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} to the image description page and a comment explaining your reasoning to the the image talk page. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 14:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Em8_front_100.jpg

I have tagged Image:Em8_front_100.jpg as {{replaceable fair use}}. If you wish to dispute this assertion, please add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} to the image description page and a comment explaining your reasoning to the the image talk page. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 14:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Elderly_BSMB4-REDB-RSWD_front.jpg

I have tagged Image:Elderly_BSMB4-REDB-RSWD_front.jpg as {{replaceable fair use}}. If you wish to dispute this assertion, please add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} to the image description page and a comment explaining your reasoning to the the image talk page. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 14:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Arabic

We got a little off topic. Sorry I'm passionate about this issue and I've gone over this many times with many people. I have often gotten a response of "who are you to say how to spell things?" and I've thrown in the towel several times. You're a very reasonable person and sorry if I sounded arrogant or demanding. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 02:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Understood. But in a way, I've issued the same challenge! When you read WP:NC carefully it's a lot more radical than most people suspect on first reading. I like it, I think it reflects both Wikipedia culture and the best recent scholarship of the last hundred years or so, in many fields. But there are certainly some challenges to the whole approach. Andrewa (talk) 12:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Image:Amphead.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Amphead.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. WinHunter ^(talk) 15:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk:House of Hohenstaufen

I hope the discussion gets back on track. I am more than a little frustrated with it because the editor who reverted my moving of the page recently has a history with me, and though a Hohenstaufen disambiguation page is certainly needed, that he created Hohenstaufen into one—despite the many links to it—I believe stems from lesser motives, though, out of respect for WP policy, I have tried to avoid saying so. Srnec (talk) 00:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Saga_Stevens_Steel.jpg

I have tagged Image:Saga_Stevens_Steel.jpg as {{replaceable fair use}}. If you wish to dispute this assertion, please add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} to the image description page and a comment explaining your reasoning to the the image talk page. Rettetast (talk) 20:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Steve Smiths

The issue has not been resolved. The main problem is that the talk pages for the articles are still reversed. Talk:Steve Smith (ice hockey) has the talk page contents that really belong to James Stephen Smith, and Talk:James Stephen Smith has the talk page contents for Steve Smith (ice hockey). Thanks. Snocrates 08:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Chris-nz

Could you please userfy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:USERFY#Userfication_process the 'Cancer_Cure' article to Chris-nz --Chris-nz (talk) 23:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

See User talk:Chris-nz#G'day. Andrewa (talk) 23:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

re http://source.pbwiki.com/Cancer%20Cure 'email me for the password if you'd like to work on it there' Sorry I couldn't locate your email address, if you could email me the pbwiki password, thanks for setting that up, most helpful. --Chris-nz (talk) 00:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC) --Chris-nz (talk) 18:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Girl Guides moves

Hi. You recently contributed to the discussion at Talk:Girl Guides about moves and renames of some articles about Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting. I have considered what you said and have opened a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting#Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting article modifications. I needed to summarise what you said to effectively open this discussion. I hope I have done justice to your remarks and have correctly represented what you intended. Kingbird (talk) 06:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

University College Dublin move request

I added UCC to the UCD move request. Please comment or append your comment accordingly. — AjaxSmack 01:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Post-Norman Conquest monarchs of England

Hello Andrewa, I'm glad you brought my attention to the fact the guideline didn't mention how the English lists went from nicknames (pre-1066) to numerals (post-1066). I've now brought that point, there. GoodDay (talk) 15:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Muffin

What's up with the fact that you reverted my edits to muffin? I tried to find a few sources for the darn thing, that's all. Lady Galaxy 15:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Deletion Review for Astro Empires

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Astro Empires. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this article, speedy-deleted it, or were otherwise interested in the article, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Butch-cassidy (talk) 21:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Principia Ethica

Another editor has added the {{prod}} template to the article Principia Ethica, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the {{prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. BJBot (talk) 06:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Percussion WikiProject

		WikiProject Percussion
		You are invited to join WikiProject Percussion!

I saw on the WP:MusInst page that you were interested in percussion instruments, so I thought you may be interested in helping get a percussion wikiproject off the ground. --Evan ¤ Seeds 18:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Operation Straw Poll

Hi, since you took part in the discussion about renaming this article, you may be interested in participating in a most evil poll to determine the public opinion on the naming issue. --Illythr (talk) 20:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Article importance scale for WikiProject Equine

Hello. WikiProject Equine is discussing an article importance scale here. Your POV would be appreciated. --Una Smith (talk) 17:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Ejaculation (grammar)

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Ejaculation (grammar), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you agree with the deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add {{db-author}} to the top of Ejaculation (grammar). Jasy jatere (talk) 18:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

BMW F650GS page rename

You may have noticed that the page was renamed despite clear consensus not being reached. I have objected to this. If you also feel it should not have been done please add a comment to the appropriate entry at Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Incomplete_and_contested_proposals. Thanks. --TimTay (talk) 09:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Please explain why you think that consensus is necessary if primary sources are unambigious. --87.189.62.43 (talk)

Consensus is always necessary in Wikipedia. The policy reads in part Consensus is Wikipedia's fundamental model for editorial decision-making. Policies and guidelines document communal consensus rather than creating it. So a discussion should only ever be closed when consensus has been reached. A poll or survey can also be closed as a procedural matter if no consensus seems possible, to clean up pages such as WP:RM, but discussion then continues. If that had been done in this case, then of course no move would have been the result.

The problem is, you may think that primary sources are unambigious, and that this justifies the move in terms Wikipedia policy, but I think this is wrong on both counts. So further discussion is indicated IMO.

This case should have been relisted to gain consensus before the moves were made. But it's a small mistake and not all that important. Unfortunately, if it is relisted to reverse the moves that have been made contrary to policy (as was suggested on the closing admin's talk page), consensus is again unlikely, so the moves will probably stand. This also doesn't matter very much; One of the unwritten principles of Wikipedia is that if there's no consensus, it doesn't really matter which way we go.

Of course, if you wish to, you could also relist the move to facilitate further discussion. I haven't yet decided whether I have time to. Andrewa (talk) 01:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There was a week's time to do the discussion, the only point made in favor of the wrong names were that they would be easier to handle. Since Wikipedia does truth, not convenience, it's not really a point at all.

So, instead of drawing circles around the issue, tell me why the primary sources are wrong. --87.189.121.97 (talk)

Remember, the goal of discussions such as this is to arrive at consensus. While I will attempt to answer the issues you raise, if you dismiss mine as drawing circles around the issue consensus is unlikely. Instead assume good faith and perhaps we'll get somewhere. Andrewa (talk) 02:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

THANK you!!

Re:this Hear, hear! :) --Kuaichik (talk) 02:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Oracle dabnote

Thanks for catching that. I wasn't paying attention as I was typing. older ≠ wiser 11:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, that's the sort of thing wikis are all about...! Andrewa (talk) 19:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding systematic names, etc.

Hi Andrewa, Someone from the French version of WP left me an interesting note today. He's part of a group over there that has also tried and failed to get scientific name article titles introduced, but they've done some things I thought you might also be interested in. Cheers, --Jwinius (talk) 22:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Comprehensive long lists‎ discussion

Hello, I noticed that you took part in the recent FLRC for List of Arsenal F.C. players and thought you might be interested in participating in a new discussion. The FLRC was closed as no consensus and it is clear the the issue of incompleteness in longer FLs is not over, so a discussion page has been started here. Please feel free to comment. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Mustang_trem.jpg

I have tagged Image:Mustang_trem.jpg as {{replaceable fair use}}. If you wish to dispute this assertion, please add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} to the image description page and a comment explaining your reasoning to the the image talk page. Rettetast (talk) 11:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Unending discussions

Hello, As an administrator, could you please clarify the procedures for unending discussions for me please? The rename discussion on the talk page for Blessed Virgin Mary is literally making all keyboard worn out. And there seems no end to it. What happens in these cases? Can a few administrators mediate or end it? I asked you to clarify the situation, since you once voted on that page and are aware of the context. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 18:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It is going on a bit. Consensus takes a long time in some cases, and in some the discussion never seems likely to end. So long as everyone follows the rules, there's no gag procedure to shorten discussion. Andrewa (talk) 23:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Berlei Building

You started the page Berlei Building in 2005! Thanks.

Can you give a cite for the information you wrote??? Regards, Ariconte (talk) 01:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Mototorcycles

I don't know why you used this bizarre spelling in your recent RM, but I corrected it. I assume it was not intentional. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks... it was some sort of computer glitch, and I can't understand it either, it doesn't look like any typo I've ever done before. As you say, bizarre and unintentional, and I guess the link was broken by it. Andrewa (talk) 19:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Queen Mum

Hi Andrew, I must say I'm a bit surprised by the tone of some of the objections to what I assumed would be an open-and-shut case, namely, the renaming of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon to her well-known regal title. I agree, it's hard to assume good faith. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 11:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The murder pages

No problem at all with you copying my post across to the others. You may want, if you haven't already, to re-read not just the AfD/DRV I linked to, but this discussion, which was the original discussion from which the AfDs, DRVs, rename proposals all stemmed. I suspect that whatever points anyone makes, someone will have already made it somewhere in that discussion. (FWIW, I agree with the move - if you can stand to read through all the rambling, you'll see my arguments on why we have Lindbergh kidnapping and not Charles Augustus Lindbergh, Junior - but I suspect I'm in a minority.) — iridescent 19:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've just been reading that. Hmmm... Andrewa (talk) 19:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a quick note that, as nominator, I have no problems with a central place of discussion for the requested moves. I've added a couple of points to the discussion, but basically I'm now rather confused about WP:N/CA. I didn't realize it wasn't a guideline and wasn't trying to mislead at all. Artichoke2020 (talk) 20:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Nuclear issues

I recall that you used to edit pages relating to nuclear power, and I always thought that you helped to bring some balance to that discussion. Can we expect you to be back editing any nuclear pages again soon? There are quite a few new pages which may be of interest to you, including those in the template. Johnfos (talk) 23:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for voting.

You wrote:

Agree, the procedure described at Wikipedia:requested moves#Moving several pages at once should have been followed. Perhaps it's not too late, there seem no other discussion sections yet so I'll put the multimove templates at the other talk pages. Andrewa (talk) 00:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Done... At least I've done Talk:101, Talk:102, Talk:103, Talk:112, Talk:119, Talk:120 and Talk:122 and another anon (possibly still the proposer of course) has subst-ed and modified the template to Talk:999. Andrewa (talk) 01:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually I had already subst:ed and modified the template on all of the above pages. However, somebody else deleted this from the pages in question (except for Talk:999), without notification or explanation, which is why it seemed to you that I had not followed procedures. I shall assume that whoever deleted it did so in good-faith opposition to my request. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 14:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

7 pin mini-DIN

Thank you for contributing a 7 pin mini-DIN drawing -- Pseudo_miniDIN-7_Diagram.png. However, your drawing looks like a female, but is left-right reversed compared to the actual female picture in the S-Video article. This leads to subtle confusion. Please consider flipping your drawing left-right, or something... (see associated talk pages).

"The 7-pin drawing shows uneven pin hole spacing. The row of 3 holes is evenly spaced, the row of 4 holes is asymmetrical. The 7-pin socket photo matches this, but is left-right reversed. This visual mis-match leads to confusion, although if one is male and one is female it is correct. It would be less confusing to get matching images, or add more images." -69.87.199.161 (talk) 11:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry you're confused, but I think this may be because you didn't read the Mini-DIN connector article, where the diagram is used, carefully enough... or the article talk page at all. It's not a socket diagram at all, it's a plug. The existing diagrams all show the male connectors as visible when unplugged, not the female connectors. At first I found this confusing myself, so I added a note to the article reading plug or male connector shown, as visible when unplugged; female sockets appear left-right reversed, to try to make this clear. I then followed the existing convention when adding the new diagram. See also Talk:Mini-DIN connector#Diagram polarity. Andrewa (talk) 09:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Studio6.gif

I have tagged Image:Studio6.gif as {{replaceable fair use}}. If you wish to dispute this assertion, please add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} to the image description page and a comment explaining your reasoning to the the image talk page. Rettetast (talk) 17:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

More snakes

Hi Andrew! Would you perhaps have a moment to support me in my efforts to fix up the Boidae section? No real work; just a mention of your support for moving a few articles there to their scientific names. After that, I'll take care of the rest. It only involves six articles: Talk:Boa, Talk:Anaconda, Talk:Calabar Python, Talk:Puerto Rican Boa, Talk:Rosy boa, and Talk:Rubber Boa. No big fight; just want to do things by the book. If we lose, then we'll just have to work around it somehow, but with just a simple word of "Support" from you in each of those articles I'm sure that won't be necessary. Cheers, --Jwinius (talk) 07:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

stars

We've now got a comprehensive set of redirects in place for "One/Two/Three star (disambiguation)", and I've added a couple more items (eg Three Stars (Chinese constellation))to the dab pages while doing so. Might as well have every imaginable redirect in place, to avoid any future accidental duplication. Four looks trickier, with more usages... might have a look tomorrow! PamD (talk) 22:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Four and five now done - and I've tidied up all the "what links here" so that nothing but redirects and the odd talk page etc now links to them. PamD (talk) 11:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The name was changed by this event?

Your statement "The name was changed by this event" in 1308 in Talk:Teutonic Takeover of Danzig is quite interesting. If you have a good source backing this up, please provide it. Maybe you have not read all of the article and of the preceding talk in which I have presented sources for various names used before 1308? In this article (and others regarding Danzig/Gdansk), certain users try to push their POV just by boldly repeating unsourced statements over and over again (and by move warring, too). I appreciate neutral editors having a look at the dispute, but it's sad when they seem to fall for unfounded and oversimplified claims which are voiced too often and too loudly, like that the evil Teutonic/German Knights conquered Gdansk, massacred all Poles and renamed the city to Danzig. -- Matthead  Discuß   10:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree it's been an emotive and overblown discussion. No, I haven't read all of your previous comments, I skimmed a lot of them, and would recommend anyone else do the same. They are extremely repetitive, and your comments above say nothing new either apart from the personal attack on myself. Yes, I have read the article.

But at the risk of encouraging this, are you seriously suggesting that the name did not change in 1308? If so, are you now seeking to overturn the (weak) consensus achieved to this effect after long, long, long discussions? Andrewa (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Protection for Roma people

Hi! I would like to ask you to make the Roma people page semi-protected. There are lots of "IP"s making quite important edits without any discussion. Thanks! AKoan (talk) 10:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll have a look... It's the Roma people article that concerns you, is that right? Andrewa (talk) 18:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please do. AKoan (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you had the time to take a look. It happened again yesterday [3] AKoan (talk) 09:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, looking at it. I haven't been involved in semi-protection before, but I'm happy to have a look at this. It will take a little time. The other possibility is to raise it at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Andrewa (talk) 12:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Other relevant pages (largely for my own benefit):

• Revision history of One Hundred and One Dalmatians as semi-protection was recently requested for similar reasons, and refused.
• Wikipedia:Protection policy#Semi-protection
• Talk:Roma people
• Template:Pp-semi-vandalism
• Wikipedia:WikiProject Vandalism studies
• Wikipedia:Rough guide to semi-protection (an essay not even a guideline, but semi-protection is relatively new)

Hmmm.... Andrewa (talk) 12:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought that you were the admin that semi-protected the article when some users tried to move it to "Gypsies" without consensum, but maybe I don't remember well. AKoan (talk) 08:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

G'day NewSouthWikiWelshman

...and I mean 'welshman' in the most gender neutral way, of course...and I'm aware that not all of you guys are from NSW.. and I'm aware that this hasn't been the most smoothly written note in Wiki's history, but hey ho...slaps head, persuades voices in head to pipe down, and continues.... Fancy attending a meetup? - We've got some interested Chapter stuff to chat about, no doubt there may be some tales of Arabian Nights (or at least Egyptian conferences), and it just generally felt like it was about time..... head over here if you're interested.... do feel free to wiki-edit away in the usual fashion too if you've got any other ideas! cheers all, Privatemusings (talk) 07:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)you've been spammed in this nature because you signed up as interested in being notified about this sort of thing.. hope that's ok!

Country specific nuclear information

Hi, Andrewa. There is a discussion how to organize the country specific nuclear energy information. Your opinion is welcome.Beagel (talk) 19:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Another angle on the use of sci. names

Hi Andrewa, Still trying to think of reasons why scientific names should be used for zoological databases, even for article titles here at Wikipedia, I recently came up with this line or reasoning. What do you think? Cheers, --Jwinius (talk) 02:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation

FYI (to avoid derailing the discussion with the inevitable hairsplitting): Actually, Ottawa is the national capital of Canada, not a provincial capital. However, it's not even the largest city in its province, and it's not nearly as big a city as Sydney. --Orlady (talk) 21:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Yanartas

When last I saw this article, it was about the ancient place Chimaera, which has been identified with Yanartas by sources since the nineteenth century. 90% of it is about the ancient place; there is nothing much to say about the modern place except that it is a hot spring in a national park which has been identified with the ancient Chimaera. If it is not to be moved, it should be split. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

DreamGuy moved it without consultation, and wrote a new header, to suppress whatever POV he thinks he's fighting; I have no idea. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I trust you realize that the monster, from Homer and Hesiod, has another article entirely, called Chimera (mythology), although the theory that it's a mythic version of the place should be mentioned there. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The term survivor

It's been pointed out above that the term survivor as used in the article names is standard terminology in "warbird" circles. That's relevant but it's not the whole story. We need to cater for all readers, not just specialists in this area, and that's the general principle of WP:NC as well. Andrewa (talk) 07:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

maybe you are so right - lets get rid of all the terms used on wikipedia that do not make sense to someone outside their level of expertise - lets see, I suggest we eliminate the word "Play-Off", Touchdown", "Field-goal" from all the football sites, lets eliminate the word automobile and car because we might have some readers in New Guinea that do not know what a car is.

My point being, if a reader is not knowledable in a certain area then just maybe they have to ask a question (or two) which in tern give them knowledge which makes one knowledable in an area (be-it sports, travel, or aviation) - you can not dumbdown (or spoonfeed all the information) to a person and you can not eliminate an industry standards just because someone is not experienced in a subject (for that matter do you want to eliminate the word wing, cockpit, aileron, fuselage etc... these are all aviation standard terminology) Davegnz (talk) 17:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Replying to all this at Talk:Chance-Vought F4U survivors where my comment was originally posted. Andrewa (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

BATL move request

Hi. I'm dropping you a line because you were previously interested in this topic - please see [[4]]. Thanks DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 19:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

CLisco

I'm quite confused: how can you possibly say that I'm wrong in saying that there's a CDP named Cisco? Whether or not the Census Bureau erred (which I believe it did), it really is named that — see this and this map. Although we've proven that the CDP should be named Lisco, I can't see how/why you say that I'm wrong: your own edit acknowledges that there's a CDP named Cisco. As for the line referenced by the GR1 — that source goes by Census Bureau data for Census-listed places; as the Census Bureau lists Cisco but not Lisco, there are no data for a place called Lisco in that database. Of course, we could also go with another source, such as the U.S. Geological Survey Geographic Names Information System: Lisco populated place listing from the GNIS. Nyttend (talk) 04:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Lisco, Nebraska#From my talk page. Andrewa (talk) 04:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Resolution

Thanks for finding the TIGER data; I've never quite understood how all those TIGER things work, not to mention having problems accessing some of those files, so I've never really tried looking in those parts of the Census Bureau website, except in cases where someone provides a direct link. Nyttend (talk) 13:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

This particular case is as you say resolved, but there's a more general principle involved. We shouldn't just parrot census data when it is clearly wrong. Andrewa (talk) 19:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate Image:PseudoDIN-8 Diagram.png

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A Sydney Meetup

G'day all - I'm dropping this note in to let you know that there's to be a Wiki Meetup the week after next, on Tuesday, 21st at 18:00 at The Paragon in Circular Quay. If you've ever thought about popping along to one of these, but haven't had the chance - now's the time! If you love the idea, but the time and / or place don't quite work for you, please do feel free to wiki edit away at the meetup page and I'm sure we can sort something out :-) Meetups are a great way to share wiki-thoughts, meet wiki-friends, and generally learn how to prefix all areas of your life with wiki- :-)

It's a very friendly bunch, and we're hoping to be able to formally collect membership fees and details for the Australian Chapter (did you know that we're the only current english speaking chapter? Join now for kudos and future bragging rights!) - as well as just generally have a good 'ol time. I look forward to seeing you there :-) best, Privatemusings (talk) 07:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

ta

Thanks for illuminating what many choose to ignore as a way a supporting their own preference - guidelines and the article itself. I am a little guilty of making a point, although I would never do that in main space, in support of the specific naming conventions that are never cited at these 'discussions'. You made a sensible contribution, so now I am a little embarrassed, I should have cited the second convention first. Sorry for wasting your time. 10:36, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess this is about the requested move discussion at Talk:Titan arum: Hey, not a waste of time at all, it was probably a discussion we had to have. Thanks for the positive! Andrewa (talk) 14:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:The Magic Faraway Tree.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:The Magic Faraway Tree.jpg. You've indicated that the image is being used under a claim of fair use, but you have not provided an adequate explanation for why it meets Wikipedia's requirements for such images. In particular, for each page the image is used on, the image must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Can you please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for each article the image is used in.
• That every article it is used on is linked to from its description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --FairuseBot (talk) 10:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Page move: Criticism of Objectivism (Ayn Rand) to Criticism of Objectivism

There is an ongoing discussion about moving Criticism of Objectivism (Ayn Rand) to Criticism of Objectivism. So far only me and one other editor have participated in the discussion. You voiced an opinion on this matter on the talk page, so I though I should let you know. The discussion is here. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Officers' Training Corps

Have you had any information about the name of this organisation yet? (Can you reply on my talk page, thanks) Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk | _Sign 23:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Denialist Hate Speech

First and foremost I would like to sincerely ask you for your help. Your input and patience is appreciated. I want to bring to your attention this. HD86 has made numerous comments such as "The Assyrians are EXTINCT people of ancient Mesopotamia whose name was stolen by some modern politicians and used in reference to the modern Syriacs. To label the modern Syriacs by "Assyrians" and to claim that "The Assyrian people trace their origins to the population of the pre-Islamic Levant" is indeed stupidity in its purest form." These comments are inflammatory, racist, unhistprical and outrageous. This user continues to deny that a whole race even exists. He needs to be wiki disciplined. This is unacceptable inflammtory denialist behavior. The equivalent of his statments would be that jews or arabs do not exist. Do you not see the point. His languge is very hateful and dimeaning to those of us involved in the project. If you take a look at his history he has similar incompetent statemetns regarding other controverisal topics. I ask for assistance in order to remove this hateful user from this discussion. He has denied the existence of an entire race that through ample ancient and modern evidence has existed for thousands of years. I will be waiting for your response.Ninevite (talk) 02:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello Andrew

Andrewa. The following Article is done by an world renowned Assyriologist. I highly suggest you take a look at it Andrewa. Its from the Journal of Assyrian Academic Studies: http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v18n2/Parpola-identity_Article%20-Final.pdf I have many other articles as well if you are interested. Also check this website out. http://www.aakkl.helsinki.fi/melammu/database/gen_tpl/t12/t0000779.php click on the arrows for them to drop down the full menu. This projects goal is as stated "The Assyrian and Babylonian Intellectual Heritage Project (Melammu) investigates the continuity, transformation and diffusion of Mesopotamian culture throughout the ancient world from the second millennium BC until Islamic times. A central objective of the project is to create an electronic database collecting the relevant textual, art-historical, archaeological, ethnographic and linguistic evidence and making it easily accessible on the Internet. In addition, the project organizes annual symposia focusing on different aspects of cultural continuity and evolution in the ancient world." This can be found at http://www.aakkl.helsinki.fi/melammu/home/home.php

I apologize for the length but I think the more Thourough it is the better

Assyrian Heritage of the Syrian Orthodox Church

Syriac and other historical documents attest to the Assyrian heritage of the Syrian Orthodox Church as well.

The Chaldean Bishop Addai Scher writes according to the Syrian Orthodox Church Patriarch Michael the Great (1126-99) the Greeks were offending the Jacobites in the first half of the 9th century by saying:

'Your Syrian sect has no importance neither honor, and you did never have a kingdom, neither an honorable king'. The Jacobites answered by saying that even if their name is "Syrian", but they are originally 'Assyrians' "and they have had many honorable kings." This is in line with the contemporary Assyrian claim that the terms Syrian, Suryoye applied to them mean Assyrian. He furthere wrote: "..Syria is in the west of Euphrates, and its inhabitants who are talking our Aramaic language, and who are so-called 'Syrians', are only a part of the 'all', while the other part which was in the east of Euphrates, going to Persia, had many kings from Assyria and Babylon and Urhay. (39) The Greeks evidently directed their comments to the Jacobites of Syria therefore Michael difrentiates between them and those who lived east of Euphrates, he adds: " Assyrians, who were called 'Syrians' by the Greeks, were also the same Assyrians, I mean 'Assyrians' from 'Assure' who built the city of Nineveh". (40) This concurs with his contemporary Gewargis Arbilaya's [from Arbil] and others before and after him who have identified their people as Assyrians and Babylonians.

During Mor Michael's life time, between 1160 and 1170 John of Wurzburg who visited Jerusalem refers to the Syriac speaking christians of the city as Assyrians. There were both Nestorians and Jacobite communities among others in that city. He writes:

'For the Assyrians [ local Syrian Christians] whose fathers were the settlers of that country from the first persecution, say that after Our Lord's Passion the city was seven time captured and destroyed, together with all the churches, but not wholly leveled to the ground.' (41)

Later documents continue to identify the Syrian Orthodox Church and its members as Assyrian before the 19th century. When Mehemt II organized the Millet system he appointed the Patriarch of the Armenian as the head of Millet. He was also given authority over other Christian communities such "as the Gypsies ...the Assyrians, the Monophysites of Syria and Egypt, and the Bogomils of Bosnia, ....". Later each of these communities were recognized as Millet independently of the Armenians. (42)

When Horatio Southgate visited the Syrian Orthodox communities of Turkey in 1843 he reported that its followers were calling themselves Assyrians in the form of "Suryoye Othoroye". He writes: " I began to make inquiries for the Syrians. The people informed me that there were about one hundred families of them in the town of Kharpout, and a village inhabited by them on the plain. I observed that the Armenians did not know them under the name which I used, SYRIANI; but called them ASSOURI, which struck me the more at the moment from its resemblance to our English name ASSYRIANS, from whom they claim their origin, being sons, as they say, of Assour, (Asshur,) who 'out of the land of Shinar went forth, and build Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, and Resin between Nineveh and Calah; the same is a great city..(43)

Anglican Bishop Oswald H. Perry who visited the Syrian Orthodox community at the invitation of Patriarch Mar Ignatius Peter III in a book published in 1895 titled, 'six Months in a Syrian Monastery writes the term Syrian is being used interchangeably with the 'Assyrian' by the members of the Jacobite church. After the massacres of 1895-6 large number of the Assyrians of Turkey migrated to the United State where they established churches and institutions such as. The 'Assyrian Benefit Association" founded in 1897 by Dr. Dr. Abraham K. Yoosuf in Worcester. and 'the Assyrian National School Association of America" later called "The Assyrian Orphanage and School Association of America.' (44)

'According to the French consul, the notorious sheikh of Zeilan, responsible for mass incitement at Sassun in 1894, had taken part in the plans for the massacre. During the onslaughts, about 500-700 Armenians and Assyrians took refuge in the French consulate which was 'practically besieged'.' (45)

When Metropolitan Mutran Aprim Barsum went to the Paris peace conference in 1920 to plead the case of the Syrian Orthodox his petition identified members of his church as Assyrians.

The Assryian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference from Left to right: Captain A.K. Yousuf, Secratary of Mor Barsum, Joel Warda. Mar Barsum Siting at the center

The text of Mor Barsum's petition dated Feb. 1920 reads:

'We have the honor of bringing before the Peace Conference the information that H.B. the Syrian Patriarch of Antioch has entrusted me with the task of laying before the Conference the suffering and the wishes of our ancient Assyrian nation who reside mostly in the upper valleys of Tigris and Euphrates in Mesopotamia...' (46)

Some Members of the Orthodox Church on the main street of the city of Worcester in 1922. Captain A.K. Yousuf M.D. in front . The sign behind them reads "Sons of Assyria."

According to a 1927 issue of the Worcester Telegram and Gazette Mor Aprim Barsum who had become the Patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox Church continued proudly to identify his people as Assyrians.

'His Eminence has given lectures on the psychology of the Assyrian people in the United States. His mission has been to create an understanding of the Assyrian people by Americans, because most of them, although well-educated in Assyria have been forced by a changed atmosphere into menial occupations.' (47)

The article also mentions the participation of Aprim Barsum in the 1919 conference held in Paris:

'During the peace conference he appeared to demand indemnity for the Assyrian churches sacked during the World War, and on this occasion was presented with a gold-headed cane by President Doumergue of France. He is also a familiar figure in the educational centers of Europe such as Oxford, Paris and Vienna.' (48)

The Syriac text on this church in turabedin reads it was restored 'on the days of Pariarch Afrem I (Barsoum) the Assyrian and the Bishop Afrem of Turabdin....'

Changing Ethnicity for the sake of religious politics

After identifying himself and his people as Assyrians for most of his life Mor Aprim Barsum issued a decree in to revise the ethnicity of his followers to Arameans. The sealed document of the Patriarch is dated December 2, 1952. It was written in Syriac and Arabic and later published together with an English translation by Archdiocese of the Syrian Church of Antioch under the title: "The Syrian Church of Antioch, in Name and History." His decision was perhaps influenced by the fact that the seat of the Patriarch along with most of his followers were driven out of Turkey in 1924 and resided in Syria where the native Christians who made up a majority of his church members did not want to be known as Assyrians.

 Aprim's book was clearly intended to give a new identity to his followers. If as he and others have suggested Suryoyo meant Aramean it would have been a common knowledge, therefore there would not have been a need to write a book about it.

The Syrian Church of Antioch in Name and History

Aprim Barsum justified his drastic change of mind by stating that church in India and homeland [Middle East] is known as "Syrian Orthodox" therefore the use of the Assyrian in the diaspora creates ambiguity about the church and its unity." He further claimed that "The name Assyrian came to be used in English for the Church of the East during the nineteenth century" through the efforts of Anglican Missionaries. (49) This argument was intended to appeal to the religious prejudices of his followers who were willing to reject their Assyrian identity lest they be confused with the hated Nestorians. In reality as shown previously the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Church of the East long before the arrival of the Anglican missionaries had identified themselves as Assyrians.

Barsum further maintained historically it would be incorrect to use the title Assyrian for the Church since it has been known as "Syrian". However since this title was used by the Rum Orthodox (Antiochian) Church in North America to avoid confusion he recommended the name Aramaic to be used instead of the Syriac language and the term Aramaean to refer to the Church.(50) Ironically on the cover of his book the name of its language was identified as suryoyo or Syriac. The use of Aramaic and Aramean instead of Assyrian dictated by Aprim was not based on historical truth but was intended to stop his followers from identifying themselves as they had done before-the name change was simply motivated by religious politics. Since 1952 all references to the church and its members as Assyrians have been expunged but some evidences of its former use have survived. In a letter to the editor of the Syrian Orthodox magazine Beth-Nahreen dated 6th of June 1947 Athanasius Yeshue Samuel, Basum's Metropolitan of Jerusalem at Saint Mark's Convent, wrote: 'May the Almighty confer upon you, your staff, the readers of the issue and the Assyrian community all over the world his blessings and benedictions and crown your efforts with success.' A picture taken from the Saint Mark's Convent in Jerusalem shows that its name plate in English originally was 'Assyrian convent' later the first A and the s were painted over to make it read 'Syrian Convent' but the Jewish script above it still reads Ashurim or Assyrian. When Mor Athanasius Yeshue Samuel arrived in the United States his title on his letterhead was 'Assyrian Orthodox Archbishop to the United States and Canada'. In a letter dated August 12, 1952 to the Parishioners he wrote: "I shall need the cooperation of every Assyrian who has the love of his church and nation at heart.'

Since then the clergies of that church have carried out a cruel crusade of ethnic cleansing toward their members who dare to identify themselves as Assyrians. The late Frank Chavor up to his death vividly remembered how members of his church fought attempts to remove the name Assyrian from their church in Harport Connecticut but were locked out by the court order obtained by the Archdiocese to drive them out.

Reasons which led Aprim Barsum to adopt his anti Assyrian policy included the close relationships evolving between Assyrians of the Syrian Orthodox Church and members of the Church of the East. In 1933 in response to the Semail massacres of the Assyrians in Iraq the Assyrian National Federation in the United States was jointly established by members of both denominations. It must have come as a shock to Aprim Barsum when David Perley an influential member of his church defined Assyrian nationalism as follows: 'Such is the revolt of the new generation that has united us all, against the narrow provincialism of the past regardless of creed, under the banner of our Ethnarch, Mar Eshai Shimun XXI, [the Patriarch of the Church of the East] our hero, both spiritual and secular, in our struggle for survival. Over a period of about a decade, the spirit of the political activities of this youth of seven-and-twenty who commenced his career in the field of battle has been characterized by a sane desire to establish a homeland where liberty might reign supreme.' (51) This was published in Yosuf Malik's 'British Betrayal of the Assyrians' who was a member of the Chaldean church but considered himself and his people as Assyrians.

A 1964 book by Jibrail Iydin published in Turkey attests to the Assyrian Heritage of the Suryoye and Suryaye of Mesopotamia. the Title is: "History of the Suryoyto Kingdom." courtesy of www.bethsuryoyo.com

Directors of the Assyrian National Federation including members of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the United States arranged for the Patriarch Eishay Shimun to Present the "Assyrian National Petition" to the "World Security Conference" at San Francisco on May 7, 1945. Cooperation between members of the three denominations were unraveling centuries of segregationist practices by the Syriac speaking churches dedicated to keeping their flocks as far away from each other as possible therefore something had to be done to stop it. On May 12, 1952, His Holiness Patriarch Ephrem I Barsoum appointed Archbishop Mor Athanasius Yeshue Samuel as Patriarchal Vicar over the United States and Canada.Despite protest by the members of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the United States archbishop Mor Athanasius began the removal of the Assyrian name from all but two churches in the United States. Members who objected were locked out excommunicated and driven out.

Parishioners of the Church of the Virgin Mary in Worcester, Massachusetts and the Paramus of New Jersey refused to comply with the identity change. They succeeded in keeping the Assyrian name 'by registering their parishes independent of the main church under a trustee group'. Archbishop Mor Cyril Aprim Karim later succeed in removing the term Assyrian from the Virgin Mary church in Worcester, but in Paramus the Assyrian identity of the church still prevails. This is a classical example of a house at war against itself divided into insignificance by its clergies.

Aprim Basum's anti Assyrian policies succeeded in stopping a trend which would have united the Syriac speaking people under a common name but instead the term Aramean was introduced to promote divisiveness. Factions of the Syrian Orthodox Church in Europe, the United States and the Middle East still proudly proclaim their Assyrian heritage while the rest insist that they are Arameans because their patriarch Aprim Barsum told them.

The change of name from "Assyrian Orthodox Church" to "Syrian Orthodox church" led to a dispute with the Rum Orthodox Church in North America. The matter was resolved by court litigation which awarded the right to use the name to Aprim Barsum's denomination. (52)

During the United States census of 2000 to prevent the possibility of counting members of the Syrian Orthodox Church as Assyrians the US Archbishops Cyril Aprim Karim and Clemis Eugene Kaplan issued a declaration to change the name of the Church to "Syriac Orthodox Church" and refer to its members as Syriacs.(53) Since then the name Syriacs has been used sided by side with Aramean to drive members of the church further away from their Assyrian identity.

Syriac in this context means nothing more than a religious denomination and has nothing to do with national identity . This term previously pertained to the language spoken by the christians of Mesopotamia and Syria, and does not necessarily means Aramean. The fact that Syriac is often used side by side with Aramean by those wishing to distance themselves from their Assyrian heritage means the two names are not synonymous and neither one of them adequately explains the identity of the "Syrian Orthodox Church" or its members. Identifying our people by the language they speak rather than their national and historical heritage is akin to forcing the European people to identify themselves as Latin rather than their respective nationality.

To justify their new Aramean identity members of the Syrian Orthodox Church who identify themselves as such contend that the terms 'Syrian, Suraya and Suryoyo mean Aramean because in the third century B.C. when the Greeks translated the Old Testament they substituted Syrian for any mention of the Arameans. The fallacy of this logic is that the term Syrian was in use before the 5th century B.C. and according to Herodotus, Strabo and Justinus and other Roman and Greek historians meant Assyrian. Furthermore the inhabitants of Mesopotamia did not speak the Greek language when they became Christians therefore it would not have mattered what the Greeks called the Arameans, and would not have influenced them in one way or another. By the third century B.C. the population of Abar-nahra west of Euphrates consisted of not only the Arameans also of Greeks, Romans, Canaanites, Arabs, and Assyrians. The 12 century patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox 'Michael the Great' acknowledges that both Arameans and Assyrians were known as Syrian Suryaye and Suryoye but he clearly distinguishes between the two by writing those who lived "in the east of Euphrates, going to Persia, had many kings from Assyria and Babylon and Urhay." In other words the homeland of the Arameans was considered West of Euphrates even at his time. He further wrote: " Assyrians, who were called 'Syrians' by the Greeks, were also the same Assyrians, I mean 'Assyrians' from 'Assure' who built the city of Nineveh". (See 40)

John Joseph has also attempted to confuse the identity of the contemporary Assyrians by stating that Asore or Asuri used by the Armenians, Georgians and Russians for the Christian Assyrians long before the 19the century means Syrian, not Assyrian. According to him the correct Armenian name for Assyrians is "Asorestantji" and cites the 1884 Anorayre De Byzance Dictionary as evidence. We have already seen that Syrian was used historically as substitute for Assyrian. Armenian Asore or Persian Asuri are composed of 'Asor' or 'Asur' meaning Assyria plus an ending possessive pronoun to make them Assyrian. In fact if the Armenian Asore means Syrian it validates all the other assertions that Syrian is another form for Assyrian when applied to the christians of Mesopotamia. In the classical Armenian literature such as the fifteenth century version of the 'Wisdom of Khakar ' (Ahikar) ancient Assyrians are called "Asores" and Assyria is Asorestan. This is compatible with the Indo-European formula for nations and their country. For example Afghani are the people of Afghanistan, Hindi are the people of Hidustan, Armani are the people of Armanistan and so-forth. One has also to wonder; if 'Asor' in "Asorestantji" means Assyria why it would not in "Asore".

Another derivative from Asuri is the Persian term Surian which is short for Asurian and means Assyrians. It was used by the Arabs after their 7th century invasion as "al-Suryaniyyun" which it means Assyrian as acknowledged by the tenth century translator of the "Latin history of Paulus Orosius" (cr. 961-976 AD), where it is equated with the Latin "Assyri" [Assyrian].(54)

Despite all attempts by the Syrian Orthodox Church to distance itself from its Assyrian heritage, its Assyrian legacy is still alive in Turkey. Articles about Christians in that country written by Turks still refer to members of the church as Assyrians. On one internet site under the title: "Mardin and Surrounding Areas; Assyrian Monasteries." after praising the Assyrian stone masons for having built magnificent buildings in Mardin it continues:

"Perhaps even more striking than Mardin itself are the Assyrian monasteries that dot the landscape around it. The Assyrians consider themselves the real deal, the original Christians who still speak the ancient Aramaic language Jesus spoke." (55)

As if unaware of facts mentioned in this and other articles Joseph ends his commentary by writing: "I seriously believe that the single most important problem facing our Assyrian community and the reasons for our disunity stem from the fact that nobody takes us seriously on the question of our identity--not our friends, not our enemies. Actually, they all seem to know our history better than we do, be they Kurds or Arabs, the Syrian Orthodox or the Chaldeans , the Iraqi [political] parties or the scholars at Oxford, Harvard, Yale or Chicago, or the U.S. Census Bureau in Washington D.C., let alone the Department of State there..."

It is astonishing for Joseph to state that all the above "know our history better than we do". This is typical Joseph's lack of understanding of reality. The confusion of our identity has been invented by religious rivalries and not historical facts. The Chaldean church, the Syrian Orthodox church, the Church of the East and their followers have spent centuries attacking and disowning each other for theological reasons. Their clergies have found it advantageous to divide, separate, and segregate their followers from the other two. Any unity of our people based on ethnicity is considered as a threat to their denominational interest therefore they come up with artificial ethnic identities for their parishioners to keep them segregated.

When a new church was established in 1553 it was called Chaldean by the Roman Church a name which is now being used as an ethnic identity by its clergies and members. Starting at 1952 Syrian Orthodox Church leaders for religious reasons decided to call their church and members Aramean. Joseph has further contributed to such confusions in his three book, various articles, and lectures to students and public by misrepresenting the historical facts. Given such reality his claim that "Kurds or Arabs, the Syrian Orthodox or the Chaldeans , the Iraqi [political] parties or the scholars at Oxford, Harvard, Yale or Chicago, or the U.S. Census Bureau in Washington D.C. know our history better than we do." sounds preposterous.

The United States government and the new Iraqi government had recognized our people collectively as Assyrians until the Chaldean clergies bombarded them with letters claiming that members of their church are not Assyrians. The name change game played by the clergies of the Syriac Orthodox church have divided members of the same families between various ethnic identities. How is it possible for one brother to be Assyrian, the other Aramean and the third Syriac. These are the result of silly games our clergies have played with our identity.

While the rest of the world fully understands the magical power of unity and working in harmony our religious leaders have spent centuries in conflict over theological controversies and have divided our people into hostile factions each claiming to belong to a different nationality. Each denomination still clings to its exclusive medieval religious domain complete with dynasties of priests, bishops and patriarchs ready to wage holy wars against others at a moment's notice.

After reading a Syrian Orthodox Church bulletin in 1965 which blamed the Nestorians of the Persian empire for having delivered a severe blow to the ancient church in 480 AD David Perley wrote: "Imagine this statement is made by a presumptivly spiritual leader in the Age of Ecumenicity, when brotherhood of all men, of every faith, is the guiding star! Which do you think is more important now-the future of the Faith of our fathers, and our continued collective existence, or memories of the dastardly days of Ephesus or Chalcedon, when word-splitting definitions of obscure points of doctrine led men to do battle against their brothers as the 'enemies of God'? In my opinion the Assyrians are too enlightened to be led back to those days!"

Centuries of religious conflicts have prevented our people from forming a none sectarian leadership to look after their common interest and guide them wisely during the crucial times. Today they are in danger of being driven out of their homeland in Iraq. Tens of thousands have already fled to Jordan, Syria and more to follow. Others are being kidnaped and killed. The Kurds are busy confiscating Christian villages and are happy to incite the Chaldeans against the Assyrians and help members of the Syrian Orthodox Church to reject their Assyrian heritage. There is no consultation or cooperation between our denominations to agree on how to help our unfortunate people. The only help they are willing and able to provide is to ask for prayers probably just for their own members.

39-(History of Mikhael The Great" Chabot Edition (French) P: 750) as quoted by Addai Scher, Hestorie De La Chaldee Et De "Assyrie") 40-(ibid P: 748) 41- (F. E. Peters, "Jerusalem", Princeton University Press 1985 pp. 297-8 citing Saewulf 1896; "Saewulf. 'Pilgrimage to Jerusalem and the Holy Land', Trans. the Lord Bishop of Clifton. 'Palestine Pilgrims Text Society 4' Reprint New York Ams Press, 1971) 42- (Stanford Shaw "Empire of the Gazis: Rise of the Ottoman Empire, 1280-1566" Volume I, p. 152) 43- (Horatio Southgate, "Narrative of a Visit to the Syrian [Jacobites] Church", 1844 P 80) 44- (Edip Aydin, "The History of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch in North America: Challenges and Opportunities", http://www.saintgabrielsyouth.com/syriac_church.htm, April 1, 2004) 45- (Christopher J. Walker, "Armenia The Survival of a Nation," Martin's Press, New York 1980 p. 161) 46- http://bethsuryoyo.com/Code/Articles/Articles.html 47- 48- 49- 50- (Edip Aydin ibid ) 51- (David Barsum Perley in Yosuf Malik's, "British Betrayal of the Assyrians", Self Published 1936, Chapt. VII.) 52-- (Edip Aydin ibid0 53- (http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/currentevents/Census/bishopseng.html)

54- ((Abdel Rahman Badawi Ed. "Orosius, Tarikh Al 'Alam", Al Muassasa al Ararabiyya lil Dirasat wal Nashr, Beirut, First Edition, 1982.)

55- http://www.gokdemir.com/nj/august-2000-trip-turkey-borderlands.html

I have far more if youre interested and again I apologize for this lenghty note. Your input is greatly appreciated my friend. Ninevite (talk) 04:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Christmas Meetup

G'day all - I'm hoping that I might persuade you along to a Wiki christmas celebration / meetup on december 18th :-) - The meetup regulars are a friendly bunch, and we're very much hoping to get a few new folk along to chat about all things Wiki (and there are apparently some exciting things in the pipeline! Come along to find out a bit more ;-) - you can sign up here - and do feel free to edit that page with any more ideas or suggestions too :-)

Hope to see you there - I've heard a rumour that the first drink is on the highest placed Australian in the current arbcom elections.... Privatemusings (talk) 23:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)ok, so I started that rumour too....

Baroque Guitars are NOT "ten-string guitars"

Andrew, frankly, you are mistaken. It is incorrect to refer to a baroque guitar as a "ten-string guitar". No one refers to the baroque lute as "the 24-string lute", but correctly as the 13-course lute. This is a well-established musicological/organological convention. "12-string guitar" is the only exception to this, and that is only because the term has been disseminated by the popular "cult(ure)" in the usual brainwashed ignorance of the masses. If two strings function as one string, they are a COURSE, not two separate strings. In contrast, a ten-stringed guitar has ten separate strings each of which can be separately fretted. This is not the case on the baroque guitar, which effectively only has five courses. Moreover, the term "ten-string" guitar has come to signify a particular instrument, which is NOT a baroque guitar. You are evidently not a musicologist/organologist/semiologist/semantician so I don't see what you think you will achieve by being bothersome about this issue, which relates to organology and semantics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.133.166 (talk) 08:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

What I think I will achieve is accuracy. I'm sorry if you find this bothersome. I respect your theories, and you have every right to promote them, but not on Wikipedia. Andrewa (talk) 11:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

You are not being "accurate" and I am not "theorizing". Please inform yourself about WELL-ESTABLISHED musicological/organological terminology and its usage by informed musicians/musicologists! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.133.166 (talk) 11:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Cantonese→Yue Chinese move discussion reopened

Hi Andrewa,

I've reopened the discussion about moving Cantonese to Yue Chinese to see if a consensus can be reached (as we failed to do so the last time creating lengthy argument). As you were fairly involved in the original discussion, I wanted to inform you of it's continuation. You can see my proposal and comment here. Thank you!

Cheers, The Fiddly Leprechaun · Catch Me! 20:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion about Dab

On the contrary. All that I said was rather objective and well-based, supplemented with direct quotes (not taken out of context) and references - I'm not making any of this up, and I'm not talking nonsense. My arguments have direct relevance to this discussion and article, because Dab's edits and activity in Assyrian-related articles have a direct effect on how this issue is represented. Furthermore, he has maintained his offensive tone across the past year, something which is not at all productive. Ultimately, millions of people acquire inofrmation from Wikipedia; of those, a small fraction refers to Wikipedia articles for information about Assyrians and the related identity issue. Dab's anti-nationalistic bias will ultimately have a negative effect on how this issue is portrayed to the thousands of people who refer to these articles for information about the Assyrians of today.

Granted, nationalism is not welcome on Wikipedia, and I have no discord with that. However, the fact that Assyrians today identify with the ancient Assyrians is found throughout this article. Thus nationalism has a valid place here in that respect. Dab, however, objects to the very idea of Assyrians being nationalistic, and as I said, he has expressed his anti-nationalistic views many a time. Thus, I argue that there is a direct conflict of interest, to which Dab has made no comment thus far (cf. the Wikipedia guidelines to which I referred above). I want him to answer, for himself, to my "allegations", and I want everybody to be witness to it. If I am truly wrong in all of this, then by all means block me. Otherwise, stop turning a deaf ear to the issues I have raised, as they are relevant. --Šarukinu (talk) 21:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Much of this is opinion, and much of it ignores and/or violates various Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and little if any of it is new. I'm sorry, but I think that posting this was a complete waste of your time and mine.

Except I should say that I don't want to block you, and I don't think there are grounds for it yet. Andrewa (talk) 19:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Dab. I don't agree with every decision they or any other contributor makes. Hey, we all make mistakes. I have been glad of some of Dab's boldness. We don't want to spend our whole lives on this discussion, do we?

More of a worry is edits such as this one. My immediate reply was

Is saying waste of time. Waste of time annoy admins, who give time to help you. Waste of time annoy neighbours, who maybe turn out bigger than you when one day meet in street. Please to stop. You and others, same. (;->

which I decided not to post there, even with the smiley.

I don't know much about the modern Assyrians. I have some Coptic friends, that's about the closest I think... I hope that's not considered insulting. I didn't even know the modern Assyrians existed until I met some at a party a few years ago, where one was playing an electric saz... wow. I want one. They shared some of their story. But that's not necessarily the story of all Assyrians of course. Andrewa (talk) 20:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

That's not insulting, they are somewhat related I guess... Actually, the Church of the East and the Coptic Church have historically been enemies :) I agree, Dab's boldness at least has stimulated some attempts at improving the article. But you cannot seriously ignore/deny the fact that his anti-nationalist agenda is blatant, and explains much of his activity and involvement in the Assyrian-related articles in the first place. It's an all-out conflict of interest. Assyrians are a nationalistic people - it is in their nature, and it is a fundamental factor behind the issues that are discussed in the article on Assyrian people. Also, he insinuated that he was going to block users (such as myself) simply for having their Wikipedia account named after Assyrian kings. Where is the merit in that? I know the bigger picture is to improve this article, but he's quite offensive, and his patronizing, matter-of-fact tone doesn't help at all. As you said, I'm going to raise the issue in an appropriate channel. I disagree, in that my post wasn't a waste of time. At least now people will question more thoroughly the activity of admins, and not feel intimidated by them (no offense to you is implied).. --Šarukinu (talk) 20:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

It depends what you mean by anti-nationalist agenda. See WP:NPOV. Dab has every right to defend this fundamental Wikipedia policy.

Of course you're welcome to contribute on articles on topics on which you feel strongly. But please, recognise that there's a potential problem. If you aren't prepared to at least try to put accuracy before nationalistic sentiments, and to accept views other than your own as equally deserving of space in Wikipedia, then it's hard to see how you can contribute here.

Disagree that Dab insinuated that he was going to block users... simply for having their Wikipedia account named after Assyrian kings. That is either a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation of what was said. Either way you should withdraw the allegation.

And please note, I have said that you should raise your problems with Dab in an appropriate channel if you feel you have a case. I have also said that your allegations of admin misconduct are totally baseless and a waste of time. It would be better to raise them through the proper channels. It would be better still to withdraw them, and best of all to apologise to Dab for making them.

And I am hopeful that you're also wrong to think that anyone will read the various attacks on various admins by you and others and be encouraged to question more thoroughly the activity of admins in any constructive way. I could be wrong. Andrewa (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I respect your opinion as always. However, I will not withdraw my allegations, nor will I offer Dab any sort of apology - he simply does not deserve it. As I have said many times before, I did not make any false claims, and I backed everything up with the appropriate references and quotations.

I agree that perhaps I shouldn't have made such a lengthy post in the discussion page of an article, however I was enraged by his outrageous claims and accusations directed towards myself. I have never given any reason to suggest that I make POV edits, or that I express "nationalism" in a way that violates Wikipedia policy. And Dab did in fact imply that he was going to take some kind of restrictive action against users with accounts named after Assyrian kings.

Although he did not directly say he was going to block such users, he clearly implied some form of profiling: It took half a year for the Kosovo article to settle down in acceptable shape, and we can achieve the same here. But this will require unpopular decisions, and some clamping down on the more indoctrinated pov-pushers. This will likely include most accounts named after Assyrian kings and the like.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that he's classifying users with accounts named after Assyrian kings as indoctrinated pov-pushers, quite similarly to how many police officers and airport security officers commit racial profiling. Who is he to make such a wild claim?

Anyways, as you have suggested over and over again (I am sorry you had to repeat this so many times), I will raise this issue in the appropriate channel. Thanks for your time and your input - I look forward to collaborating with you on the Assyrian-related articles. --Šarukinu (talk) 22:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Recent Statement between me and You

Do you mind explaining this "Anyway, they both have, and I'm glad you agree about that (one of them at least, it doesn't really matter which)" Are you instigating that I have any part attributed in a grotesquely negative way such as User: Aramaean Syriac? The overall purpose of that remark was to show his recent innappropraite behavior in creating forks and then all of sudden I get attacked for bringing it up. If the above statment is referring to me then I would like to know the meaning of it if not then disreagard this whole message because users such as the one who has attacked continues to disturb others including myself to go off topic into uncahrted territory. Best Regards Ninevite (talk) 23:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This was replying to He has, no one denies that, which was in reply to my post It seems to me that User:AramaeanSyriac has indeed recreated a previously deleted fork as claimed above, and that Dab has again patiently fixed it. So the two users in question are AramaeanSyriac and Dab. If it's confusing, then this is because of your improperly indented or placed post which broke the string. As I said before, please don't try to fix it now, that will make it worse. Hang in there. Andrewa (talk) 00:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I would like to thank you for clarifying your statement and also for your genorous input on this topic. Best Regards! Ninevite (talk) 06:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello there have some new posts regarding the most common name. User Sarukinu' sources as well as mine have come to a conclusion regarding our findings. Your input here is welcomed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac_people#Move_to_Assyrian_people Ninevite (talk) 04:00, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Your Unconstructive Meddling with the Ten-string Guitar article

Andrew, since you live in Australia (as do I) why don't you contact me and make an appointment to meet up and I will happily spend my time informing you about an issue you clearly have no knowledge/understanding of. I will not justify your frankly IGNORANT comments with further detailed response. Go read and inform yourself. If 9frontier9 or you have a "point" (as you call it), MAKE IT. By all means, MAKE IT. Saying something you evidently do not comprehend is "nonsense" does not make it so. No one here says anything about inherent "superiority" of an instrument. (Why are you so threatened by the fact that I finally give people information about an instrument that has always been covered up, lied about, or misrepresented?) Your own challenged and petrified psyche reads this claim of "superiority" where it does not exist. As for the acoustic properties of the Yepes guitar, these are hard, scientific facts (we are talking about physics here), but reading your profile I get the impression you are the type of person who fears science, so there is no convincing you of facts when they are staring you right in the face. As for whether an interpreter can actually USE these acoustic properties to affect a "superior" performance, that depends entirely on the calibre of the artist! But your denial of physical phenomena that have been empirically and mathematically proven true, shows only YOUR "fringe view" to be "nonsense"! As for the article, I will improve it when I have the time, but I certainly do not need "help" from individuals who have NO KNOWLEDGE of the subject!Viktor van Niekerk (talk) 11:28, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

If you're in Sydney, I'd love to meet you... why don't we both try to attend the next Wikipedia meetup in Sydney?

Am I right in assuming that this edit is also by you? You seem to use that IP quite a lot, in fact. Do you use others?

I'd strongly suggest that you read the official Wikipedia policy on personal attacks. If you continue to flout this policy, eventually you'll get into trouble for it. Andrewa (talk) 11:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Likewise, Andrew, I take your edits as little more than a personal vendetta against me. You are wasting my time and causing me stress. But I will NOT back down on these issues. And I will say that I am NOT an opinionated person. I hardly care to express an opinion on anything. But this issue is my life and I am passionate about it and I would NOT express an "opinion" about it unless I knew beyond any doubt that I was expressing facts that I have thoroughly researched and that have been proven beyond a doubt. I'm sorry, I do not have time to attend Wikipedia gatherings (this is not my life and I have little interest in wikipedia). What concerns me is knowledge about my area of interest, knowledge that has for decades been under constant attack and threats from individuals who have no researched the topic sufficiently. Yes, I am protective of this knowledge, of preserving it and passing it on. Yes, I will not back down when it is under threat of being destroyed by attacks and opinions. But I have no desire to be involved in what you term "personal attacks". But when I get repeated attacks/vandalism, yes, I dispense with the pleasantries. I would prefer NOT to make this personal, or not to continue down this path, but your incessant attacks (for that is how I perceive them) leave me no alternative. I am NOT trying to convince anyone that the Yepes guitar is inherently superior to the 6-string guitar. I also don't care that you call 6-course guitars 12-string guitars. But I care about preserving knowledge about an instrument I am passionate about, knowledge that has been repressed, attacked, and distorted for decades. Andrew, do you even know the instrument I am defending? Have you ever even heard a high-calibre player of this instrument perform live? HAve you had the opportunity to try a high-end instrument of this type with its correct tuning? Have you made any effort at all to study the articles and interviews I have on my site? Have you made any effort to investigate the validity of the acoustic claims I make (for they are proven facts you can even read about in most good books on acoustics)? Is this REALLY necessary? I don't CARE what you call a 12-string guitar. I don't CARE about including a reference to baroque guitars in case people looking for one accidentaly finds the other (though I highly doubt anyone aside from yourself refers to baroque guitars as 10-string guitars). I care about people understanding the physics behind WHY Yepes wanted additional strings as resonators on his classical guitar. I care about people understanding that Yepes's invention is contingent upon the tuning of the resonators he added. I care about preserving and passing on also the more concrete MUSICAL knowledge and techniques associated with palying the instrument, transcribing for it, etc. I DON"T CARE about these petty arguments about 12-string guitars and baroque guitars. But your attacks are forcing me to perceive you as a threat to the knowledge I seek to preserve. Is this really necessary, Andrew? Viktor van Niekerk (talk) 12:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC) (PS. I cannot be bothered with wikipedia red-tape and beurocracy, so I have sometimes not logged in. I have life beyond wikipedia, a concept I do NOT believe is constructive because it allows non-experts to misinform its readers. I don't have time for this. But I will not back down on issues I know without a doubt that I am an authority on, having dedicated many years of my life to it, having researched it thoroughly, having total conviction that the knowledge I fight for has a very real basis in the science of acoustics and historical facts. Viktor van Niekerk (talk) 12:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm very sorry you see me in this way, and sorry I'm causing you stress. But I must say I see no reason for it, and my patience is nearing an end. Nobody is forcing you to edit Wikipedia, but if you choose to do so I'm afraid you will be expected to observe our policies and guidelines.

Have you considered Citizendium as a better outlet for your energies? It's similar to Wikipedia but seeks to avoid the problems you are having here.

I wish you well with your passion, and I'll try to get to one of your concerts, it sounds interesting. One of my guitar teachers was building 7-string guitars long before they became fashionable and readily available, and my experience has been that the more you love music the more music you love. And I'm guessing you make excellent music.

You might look at user:andrewa/creed to see where I'm coming from. And perhaps Wikipedia:Conflict of interest as well. Andrewa (talk) 13:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Your "policies and guidelines", Andrew, also allow me to delete your comments and changes if they are not constructive. Well, on this particular topic they are not. You are not the authority on this topic; I am. Furthermore, your "policies and guidelines" prohibit the use of wikipedia for articles about living persons that are not proven historically significant. I am sure that if I oculd be bothered to look for it, I would find a policy forbidding the use of wikipedia for advertisement of merchandise. Thus, I see no conflict of neutrality or with the "policies and guidelines" when I remove text that expresses the opinions (not scientific or historical facts) of living individuals who are not historically significant, who are using wikipedia as a means of advertising their merchandise or to link to their own web sites that give false information about the ten-string guitar. Also, I'm sorry, I'm not using Citizendium for my "energies" while the wikipedia article on ten-string guitars (which has one of the highest google rankings for the term "10-string guitar") is used to misinform readers. There are already innumerable websites and publications that mislead readers with false information. Viktor van Niekerk (talk) 13:22, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:consensus. That's how we got those Google rankings. Please consider joining the project, because frankly what you're doing now is abusing it. And as I said before, you may find that my patience and that of others runs out before too long. Andrewa (talk) 13:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

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