Andro611

Welcome!

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August 2022

Hi Andro611! I noticed that you recently marked an edit as minor that may not have been. You mark almost all of your edits; many of them are not minor. "Minor edit" has a very specific definition on Wikipedia—it refers only to superficial edits that could never be the subject of a dispute, such as typo corrections or reverting obvious vandalism. Any edit that changes the meaning of an article is not a minor edit, even if it only concerns a single word. Please see Help:Minor edit for more information. Thank you. Sundayclose (talk) 23:25, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

My apologies. I though "minor edit" meant "few words added or deleted". Will mark edits properly in the future. Thank you for informing me. Andro611 (talk) 09:55, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

September 2022

Your edit to China has been removed in whole or in part, because you are using unsourced population data. Wikipedia doesn't allow any unsourced information. Wikipedia takes sourcing very seriously, and persistent violators of our sourcing policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources for more information. RayAdvait (talk) 03:05, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Trust me, this is from my own experience in another article. RayAdvait (talk) 03:07, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I have removed your edit because it reads "largest city by [blank]" if you want add another metric by all means do it. Andro611 (talk) 10:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

the largest city by blank wasn't done by me RayAdvait (talk) 11:54, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Did you not delete the word "population" from the infobox? Andro611 (talk) 13:14, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

No Andro RayAdvait (talk) 13:28, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually you did. But I see that I didn't take note of the other changes you made which were nullified by my reversion. Yue has fixed it. Andro611 (talk) 13:54, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

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Problems with upload of File:Adrian Ho.jpeg

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Territories and italics

Kosovo is a Pandora's Box for all manner of reasons, so much so that oftentimes I feel a Serbia note should be created and added as you have the Kosovo note template- because you never know when seeing Serbia on a list where an internal survey is the source of its inclusion whether the study in question included or left out citizens of Kosovo. There are examples of both. There's another reason I am writing to you. Niue and Cook Islands are in italics and marked "(NZ)". I take it you know that ontologically these two are not different to the Marshall Island, Palau and Micronesia. See Associated state#States currently in a formal association. --Coldtrack (talk) 00:11, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Kosovo is problematic because is it de facto a sovereign and independent country, however it has no legal basis for statehood until Serbia decides to recognise it (fat chance of the ever happening). It cannot claim self-determination, hasn't ever historically been a country nor did it have any constitutional right to be independent. And yet it is a country, just like Somaliland, albeit with limited recognition.

There is actually a point of distinction between the Cook Island and Niue vs Marshall Islands, Palau and FSoM. The most common reason why people list them as possessions of New Zealand is because while the associating treaty between Palau et al and the US is an international treaty, the association treaty between Cook is, Niue and New Zealand is an internal treaty. Perhaps it could be described as a sort of personal union (with the monarch of New Zealand)? Regardless, functionally they are the same and I wouldn't necessarily object to them being displayed without italics. Maybe we should try to establish some consensus about the Cook Islands and Niue with other editors.

Best regards. Andro611 (talk) 01:41, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

As you said, it is a distinction - which you know doesn't mean "difference". I knew there were technincal nuances between the NZ and the US lands but only because of what it says on the link I provided. Since we are talking about just one article and not some precedent (as each arictle follows its own protocols where it produces spreadsheets), I reckon what you and I agree here will be good enough and I doubt something this obscure and minute will even register with most people viewing the article. So would you be all right if I italised the NZ entries? PS. I agree entirely about Kosovo, though sadly it is the apologists for its independence status that carry more weight throughout the project as I've experienced in one or two places. --Coldtrack (talk) 20:07, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

By all means then, de-italicise the Cook Islands and Niue. Andro611 (talk) 02:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use File:Adrian Ho, politician and businessman, HKFP portrait.jpeg

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Speedy deletion nomination of File:Adrian Ho, politician and businessman from Hong Kong.jpeg

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• Note - material created by the US Federal government is public domain. That doe snot automatically make material produced by other governments public domain. -- Whpq (talk) 01:37, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

  But why is material on wikisource that is not in public domain in Hong Kong SAR still available under the explanation that it is public domain in the United States? Is it allowed to post material that is in public domain in the US, but not in the jurisdiction of origin?

  Example:

  https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Leung_Kwok-hung_and_Others_v_HKSAR Andro611 (talk) 13:40, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

  Edicts of a foreign government, such as laws and judicial decisions, are public domain. Pictures and creative works? That depends on local law. Justarandomamerican (talk) Have a good day! 20:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Revert at Li Fu Lee

Hello. I reverted your edit because you didn't provide a source that supports the additions. If you have a source, let me know and I'll help you with adding the source and information to the article. FunnyMath (talk) 03:54, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see the discussion in the talk page! In that case, then we might be able to add it in. The problem is that we prefer to have secondary sources that give her death date and death place. I'm thinking we can cite the plaque that shows her birth and death date as a source, but I've never heard of that being done before. FunnyMath (talk) 04:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh, we do have a template for plaques: Template:Cite sign. I'll restore your edits and add the source. FunnyMath (talk) 04:07, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Andro611 (talk) 11:25, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome! FunnyMath (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

April 2023

Your edit to Draft:Hibiscus Petroleum has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. DanCherek (talk) 13:53, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I was under the assumption that that's not a problem in temporary drafts if changed in the final version. Can I add the logo of the company in the draft? Andro611 (talk) 20:17, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Adrian Ho

Hello, Andro611. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Adrian Ho, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.

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Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 02:06, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Arkadije Popov (July 31)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Robert McClenon was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

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Robert McClenon (talk) 03:00, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Andro611! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Robert McClenon (talk) 03:00, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Yevgeny Prigozhin

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Concern regarding Draft:Hibiscus Petroleum

Hello, Andro611. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Hibiscus Petroleum, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.

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CS1 error on Port Botany (seaport)

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Unsourced content on Swire

@Andro611: If you any more unsourced content into Wikipedia I will take you up to WP:ANI. It not just WP:BLP that references. Every sentences on every type of article under the sun needs references and includes company. So please, no more unsourced content. scope_creep^Talk 21:26, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

My good man do you even know anything about the China Navigation Company? You do realise this entity trades as Swire Shipping?

I did not add this to the article. I just find it absurd that you're removing it 41 seconds after I reverted your edit to try and find a reference for "Swire Shipping being the shipping the arm of Swire".

Instead of threatening to take me up to the ANI and waste their time, why don't your try to add the reference yourself instead of blindly removing content.

Take it easy, we're trying to build an encyclopaedia. Best regards Andro611 (talk) 21:38, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

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Merry Christmas

~ ~ ~ Merry Christmas! ~ ~ ~

Hello Andro611: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, --Dustfreeworld (talk) 13:44, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, and a merry Christmas to you too! Andro611 (talk) 20:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Andro611. Thank you for your work on Arkadije Popov. SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Hello my friend! Good day to you. Thanks for creating the article, I have marked it as reviewed. Have a blessed day!

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|SunDawn}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 07:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

You really can’t change what a source says and add unsourced

And the Brittanica is not a better source. This is a violation of our sourcing policy and opinions can’t override it. I’m reverting you, please find sources and discuss it on the talk page. Doug Weller talk 20:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I fail to see exactly how Britannica is “not a terribly good source”? The Encyclopædia Britannica is a top-tier encyclopedia, and its "No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply" classification is solely due to its status as a tertiary source.

Franks not existing in 1195 is not an opinion. You don't need to cite that the sky is WP:BLUE. Is there any source other than Allen claiming this? Allen is scholar of African-American studies, not medieval Europe. It could have been a mistake, especially since the book topic has nothing to medieval Europe. Andro611 (talk) 21:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not a sky is blue issue. Here's a source for Franks in 1185, only 10 years earlier. [1] You seem extremely sure the use of the term Franks was obsolete by that time despite the sources. Doug Weller talk 14:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

It's easy to find Franks mentioned later than even 1195. [2] says 1195, search for Franks 1195 Alarcos. Same search at [3]. Alfonso VIII of Castile has Franks in 1212. Are you going to delete that? Seventh Crusade 1242, Franks participated. Doug Weller talk 14:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is not the Crusader states. This is the Reconquista. Franks are a catch all word for the western European population of the Outremer. Andro611 (talk) 16:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn’t say there was a Frankish Crusader state. I’m saying there are secondary sources saying Franks. Doug Weller talk 18:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

September 2024

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Faye Wong. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 02:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

October 2024

Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your contributions. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, please note that there is a Manual of Style that should be followed to maintain a consistent, encyclopedic appearance. Deviating from this style, as you did in Nancy Kwai, disturbs uniformity among articles and may cause readability or accessibility problems. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Full final sentence of my the edit summary: "Infobox requires country" is untrue, eg. articles of Puerto Ricans do not write Puerto Rico, US." Thank you. Prince of Erebor（The Book of Mazarbul） 15:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Please point to the specific MoS section concerning the exclusion of sovereign state in Hong Kong infoboxes, because I have read the MoS and I find nothing of the sort there. There is no uniform style I am deviating from. The convention is to include countries/sovereign states, the notable exception you listed is Puerto Rico because it is a territory not incorporated into the United States. There is no such exception listed for Hong Kong. Furthermore because Hong Kong is constitutionally defined as an inalienable part of China [4]§Chapter 1 Article 1. To draw conclusions from Puerto Rico to Hong Kong is a non sequitur.

Secondly, I do not think adding the sovereign state as required by the infobox causes any readability or accessibility problems. Such an assertion severely underestimates the mental capacities of any literate person beyond reasonable doubt. Do you genuinely think a person would be confused by this?

If Nancy Kwai was born in Shanghai would you say that adding the country in the infobox would “cause readability or accessibility problems”? Ms Kwai is a Chinese national born in China after 1997. This all just seems as one big case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT

Best regards, Andro611 (talk) 15:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I have to clarify why I added. It is not that I believe Hong Kong, China to be a common name. I am writing it as the infobox template asks. Hong Kong is the common name for the region. After it, following a comma, I added the country. I am not implying the common name of HK is Hong Kong, China. I am aware it is not. I am merely adding the country. I apologise if there was a misunderstanding relating to this. I hope you now understand my intentions with more clarity. Andro611 (talk) 15:39, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Also this discussion should be at the article talk page, not here. Andro611 (talk) 15:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I could not delve into the details within the word limit of the edit summary, but my points regarding MOS:NC-CN and MOS:IBP should be very clear.

I actually agree with your "Secondly", as it aligns with the spirit of MOS:IBP. The infobox should convey only the shortest possible key facts and exclude unnecessary content. It is universally understood that "Hong Kong" refers to Hong Kong, China. Nobody in the right mind would confuse it as Hong Kong, France, or Hong Kong, Guatemala. Distinctions should only be made when there is ambiguity. If we are specifically discussing a "China except Hong Kong" here on Wikipedia, it should be referred to as mainland China per MOS:NC-CN. But that is obviously not the case here, as we are not discussing them separately and the usage has no ambiguity, so the common name, Hong Kong, is more than enough.

Instead, I would be very interested to know which MoS mandates the inclusion of the country name in the infobox. —Prince of Erebor（The Book of Mazarbul） 16:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

With all due respect, the page you created, Adrian Ho, along with his predecessor Alice Mak (politician) linked in the article, clearly lists "Hong Kong" in their birth_place parameters. I am beginning to wonder why someone who is fully aware of the correct Manual of Style and local consensus on Hong Kong articles would suddenly forget about this and create inconsistencies in other articles. —Prince of Erebor（The Book of Mazarbul） 16:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Both Adrian Ho and Alice Mak were born before HK became a part of PR China. The crown colony of Hong Kong was named “Hong Kong” hence Adrian Ho, born in 1977 has his birthplace listed as “Hong Kong” alone. Nancy Kwai was born after the transfer of sovereignty in 1997. She was born in China. We add the country in every case except the ones mentioned as an exception, that's how the infobox template is formatted.

The ambiguity that we are trying to avoid is “Hong Kong as an independent country” such as Singapore (not it being a part of Guatemala or France). A reader who is not informed may be led to believe so if the country is not listed in the infobox, as it almost always is with other Chinese cities. To illustrate how flawed this and the previous argument is let me bring up the page you created Xu Ruohan. You listed her birthplace as Xian, Shaanxi, China. Why? You think people will confuse it with Xian, France or Xian, Guatemala?

Regardless of our opinion on the current political situation, historical rights and wrongs – we must categorically strive to depict the world as it is based on verifiable facts in a neutral tone. Hong Kong is what it is, and it's a fools errand to try to pretend Hong Kong is something that it is not. Let's call a spade a spade.

Also China without HK is not mainland China. Mainland China does not include Macau which you did not mention here. Andro611 (talk) 02:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

This will be my final reply unless something new is actually presented, as I have already made my points clear and am beginning to repeat myself, and this discussion is not progressing. I have asked you to provide the Manual of Style that requires the sovereign state to be included in the infobox, which arguably should have presented in your second revert, but I still do not see any policy-based rationale in your arguments.

According to your logic, individuals born in British Hong Kong should be listed as either British Hong Kong or Hong Kong, United Kingdom, since Hong Kong was a Crown colony/British overseas territory (after being removed from the UN's list of colonies), with Britain as the sovereign state in both cases. You are aware that it does not need to be presented in that way, the common name Hong Kong suffices. The premise of your argument does not even hold water and you are contradicting yourself. Gibraltarians simply write "Gibraltar", not "Gibraltar, Britain". Puerto Ricans write "Puerto Rico", not "Puerto Rico, United States". It is evident that the country or sovereign state can be omitted in the infobox as per MOS:IBP, even according to your reasoning.

Another "flaw" you believe you have identified stems from putting words in my mouth. I referred to ambiguity while illustrating the spirit of MOS:NC-CN, not IBP where I used "Hong Kong, France/Guatemala" as an example. Specific cautions are taken when referring to Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macau, whereas other places are generally considered geographically part of China. This also honours the spirit of IBP as "key facts". Attempting to turn my illustrations regarding the two MoS into a rebuttal suggests either unfamiliarity on Wikipedia guidelines or a sophistry.

Even if I were to take a step back, assuming there were indeed guidelines to support your claims. I have presented my case fully based on the MoS as well, and the majority of articles about Hongkongers currently list "Hong Kong" only as their birthplace, regardless of whether they are British Overseas or Chinese nationals. If there are no guidelines that prohibit this format, then, in the spirit of MOS:STYLEVAR, you should not make changes to override them.

With all due respect, it seems you are the one repeatedly bringing up political orientations and assuming bad faith. It appears you are trying to push a political agenda here, and I agree that this is one big case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. —Prince of Erebor（The Book of Mazarbul） 08:20, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I have already explained the difference between Puerto Rico and Hong Kong. Puerto Rico is not incorporated into the United States of America. It is a unincorporated territory of the US. That's why it is the exception.

You appear to have trouble understanding that Hong Kong as a crown colony and later a British dependent territory – was not part of the United Kingdom. How can I ask for it be written as such when it was legally defined as not a part of the UK. Same with Gibraltar. It's not a part of the UK! And definitely not part of Great Britain which is an island a 1000 miles away. On the other hand, Hong Kong post-1997 is legally part of China. Not just geographically, politically as well. Hong Kong was also never a British Overseas Territory. This is not an agenda these are verifiable facts.

What specific cautions are you talking about? Taiwan was NEVER part of the PRC. The consensus on wikipedia is to call the PRC “China”. Therefore there are no “specific cautions”. Taiwan is not a part of China (using wikipedia's terminology), Macau and Hong Kong are since 1999 and 1997 respectively, period.

whereas other places are generally considered geographically part of China.

Are you implying now that Hong Kong and Macau are not generally considered to be geographically part of China? What is this even supposed to mean?

You accuse me of sophistry and having a political agenda yet you are continually trying to obfuscate what is a very clear cut situation.

If there are no guidelines that prohibit this format, then, in the spirit of MOS:STYLEVAR, you should not make changes to override them.

This is directly from the MoS you linked. “This fall-back position does not give unchallengeable primacy to that particular style during consensus discussion, nor give the editor who imposed that earliest style any more say in the discussion.”

Just because some articles use your preferred style does not mean it has unchallengeable primacy, especially considering that you do not address the political geography with any WP:RS. Wikipedia would not advance at all if changes based on verifiable facts supported by reliable sources could not be made. Nowhere in the MoS is it forbidden to add the country into HKers' IBP's then one must assume then that we can and are encouraged by the template which asks for the the sovereign state.

We had a RfC about HK, China and British Hong Kong some time ago, which is how these things should be resolved. There was no consensus. But I was big advocate for “British Hong Kong”. Many editors who disagreed with me then made me realise the error of my ways. Now I see that pre-1997 “Hong Kong” alone is definitely the right choice.

All you did was make it clear to me that once we strip away the stuff that's just plain incorrect, you do not have a solid argument other than “we don't have to do it”. Sure we don't have to. But we don't have to edit wikipedia either, yet we do it.

Best regards, Andro611 (talk) 22:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Also I very much object to this diff https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nancy_Kwai&oldid=1253595611

It's disingenuous.

You gave me barely 5 hours to respond and the dispute was clearly not resolved at all. Also the Adrian Ho IBP “Hong Kong” alone for 1977 was derived from the aforementioned RfC most likely, but definitely not from the MoS as you said. Andro611 (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Also I am moving this discussion to the article talk page. Andro611 (talk) 22:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

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